I run an E8 campaign. One of the PCs is a halfling ranger who rides around on his wolf animal companion while shooting a longbow.
The PC's player has started to think that Multishot, which he took a while back, is overpowered. He asked me if I would let him swap it out for a less powerful feat (I think he feels that the other characters aren't getting to do as much damage as he does).
Part of the issue is that the alchemist in the party recently started using his feats to make the longbow an effective secondary weapon for himself. He also recently took multishot.
What should I do?
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All that being said, it's still a very powerful feat.
Silly question, but what is multishot?
I think damage reduction is usually the bane of longbows.
Kids these days use Clustered Shots.
Silly question, but what is multishot?
I think damage reduction is usually the bane of longbows.Kids these days use Clustered Shots.
I'm fairly certain we are discussing manyshot.
Edit: ninjad by TOZ.
It shouldn't be any more overpowered than Two Weapon Fighting. Less flexible, with less damage potential, but at the same time better chance of hitting with the implicit extra attack.
Send things that have DR and Resistances, also build the area with plenty of room to use for cover. Additionally have enemies fall prone if they are in no threat of being attacked in melee (such as being charged and such).
Make sure he is making the appropriate checks in conjunction with his mount and so forth.
I thought longbow can not be used while mounted?
Your memory is correct, sir. According to the PFSRD entry for Longbow, "A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted."
Oddly, they lump the Daikyu in with the longbow, despite the latter being specifically designed TO be used from horseback. See Wikipedia entry for Yabusame
If he wants to sub it out, let him sub it out. Yeah, he's probably wrong about the OP part, but ... well, it's his dude. If he decides he was wrong later, he can easily pick it back up.
If he wants to sub it out, let him sub it out. Yeah, he's probably wrong about the OP part, but ... well, it's his dude. If he decides he was wrong later, he can easily pick it back up.
Why do I get the image of collars, leashes, shackles, cuffs, and riding crops in my head after you talk about him subbing it out?
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If he wants to sub it out, let him sub it out. Yeah, he's probably wrong about the OP part, but ... well, it's his dude. If he decides he was wrong later, he can easily pick it back up.Why do I get the image of collars, leashes, shackles, cuffs, and riding crops in my head after you talk about him subbing it out?
^_~*
He's a ranger, not a cleric of Calistria.
Here's some of the possible penalties (or bonus to AC) for mounted archery to use:
-4 when foe is in melee
-4 soft cover when anyone is directly between you and your foe
-2 for each range increment
-4 when your mount takes a double move
-2 in strong winds, 21-30 mph
-4 in severe winds, 31-50 mph (ranged attacks are impossible at higher wind speeds, or during storms)
-4 due to rain, snow or sleet
-4 when foe is prone
Fog provides Concealment (20% miss chance)
Longbow cannot be used whilst mounted. Composite Longbow can be used whilst mounted.
You need a DC5 Ride check to use both hands to attack or defend yourself.
I believe we are actually talking about Manyshot.
The one that basically lets your first arrow do double damage, yes.
He's a ranger, not a cleric of Calistria.
HA!
Here's some of the possible penalties (or bonus to AC) for mounted archery to use:
-4 when foe is in melee
-4 soft cover when anyone is directly between you and your foe
-2 for each range increment
-4 when your mount takes a double move
-2 in strong winds, 21-30 mph
-4 in severe winds, 31-50 mph (ranged attacks are impossible at higher wind speeds, or during storms)
-4 due to rain, snow or sleet
-4 when foe is proneLongbow cannot be used whilst mounted. Composite Longbow can be used whilst mounted.
You need a DC5 Ride check to use both hands to attack or defend yourself.
* Foe in melee is negated by Precise Shot
* Cover of all sorts is negated by Goggles of FoefindingI know Goggles of Foefinding are a 3.5 item and people may say they should not be allowed, but the truth is that the ranger doesn't actually have them because, as he says, he hits every time anyway. And he does. He hits the frost giants he has been fighting even if he rolls a natural 1. He only bothers rolling because he wants to see if he gets a critical. Got one on a cloud giant last night, in fact -- 173 damage IIRC. In fact, that critical is what prompted him to think the feat was OP (we factored the crit/multishot combo correctly, it wasn't 6X damage).
The rest can come into play, but isn't going to come into play much. In fact as they are running through the Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl right now, the running gag is that the adaptation specifically set the wind speed to 20 mph in most of the outdoor areas. Just 1 mph shy of a penalty...
Character is a mounted archer build so of course he is using a composite longbow (sorry I did not specify, but I felt it would be assumed). Similarly, he can make the DC 5 Ride check without rolling.
Introduce him to fickle winds. He won't be complaining anymore.
Yeah, that or Wind Wall. Count on it when it makes sense, but not all enemies are spellcasters. Or -- non-caster enemies should still be a threat.
Of course one of my giants neatly sliced this guy's cohort in half with a greataxe critical last night, so...
Yes, I figured many of them are covered by feats and items etc. Just don't forget that they are there. I'd try to use one or two every other encounter.
If the winds are set at 20 mph I would vary them often. Just roll 1d2 where 2 is a temporary increase in the winds, a slight gust or something.
I'd sometimes use fog on the glacier too, and use it to limit vision to 20' or 40' or 60' randomly.
Here's the deal, if you have multishot in an E8 game, due to prereqs, you're pretty well optimized. An optimized PC among a bunch of non-optimized pcs pretty much always appears strong. The tactic naturally taken by archers (damage hose single targets until dead, repeat with next target), is also one that Pathfinder favors since half-dead monsters still hit just as hard and as often.
Good points, thanks.
For more insight, the party consists of:
Halfling Ranger on a wolf
Human Bard
Human Cavalier on a megaloceros
Dwarven Gunslinger
Half-Orc Alchemist
There is a halfling monk cohort and a human cleric cohort as well.
The cavalier (melee guy) is very clearly the LEAST optimized PC of the bunch. I would call him sub-optimized. How much so? Everyone in the party acquired SLAs of the spell of their choice from levels 1-2, 3-4, and 5-6. He chose Speak With Animals, Speak With Plants, and Transport Via Plants. He tends to leave his mount behind rather than bring it on adventures. It is very likely that our perception of ranged vs melee classes has been skewed by the existence of this character as our melee example.
The gunslinger's player is the heaviest optimizer of the bunch. I am fair certain he chose a gunslinger for this E8 campaign specifically because the class hits a strong point in relative power around level 8. Actually would love to see this guy try a melee class to see what he could do with it -- may speak to him about this for the next campaign.
Yes, I figured many of them are covered by feats and items etc. Just don't forget that they are there. I'd try to use one or two every other encounter.
If the winds are set at 20 mph I would vary them often. Just roll 1d2 where 2 is a temporary increase in the winds, a slight gust or something.
I'd sometimes use fog on the glacier too, and use it to limit vision to 20' or 40' or 60' randomly.
I'd think the 20 mph winds might clear up the fog somewhat, but good point. In any event there are more severe winds and vision penalties if they choose to delve into the rift itself.
Natural 1 on an attack roll is an automatic miss.
Natural 1 on an attack roll is an automatic miss.
Yeah, we've been choosing to ignore that rule. Although now that you mention it, the "1 always misses, 20 always hits" rule would nearly always be detrimental to this party if enforced.
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We play with a critical fumble deck, which is theoretically detrimental to the party too. IT IS AWESOME.
The fact you have fun with it is not mutually exclusive to the fact its more detrimental to the players.
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If he needs a suggestion for a feat to substitute Manyshot for, try Vital Strike. It has similar flavor to Manyshot, extra damage in a single attack roll, without being as powerful as Manyshot.
Be glad that you have a player who is willing to dial it back. That's a great player to have.
-Matt
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He's just silly to think Manyshot is over-powered. He seems to be reacting to a very non-optimized, bumbling group. He must have had a lot of encounters just right for his approach.
I've seen people say the same thing ("Overpowered!") about a grappler monk. Again, it was because it was an optimized build, facing just the right foes, surrounded by non-optimized builds.
Rather than lose Manyshot, he could just not use it. Also, a player feeling 'Overpowered' suggests things have been too easy. Up the challenge level a bit, without killing off the less-optimized builds, and he'll feel differently.
In E8 Archery is the hands down most powerful character, especially rangers and Zen Archer monks who snag improved precise shot. The rangers mount and constant ability to full attack and extend the fight means his action economy is the peak of any character in any group short of another human ranger with leadership maybe?
When you play E8, you essentially say "I'm replacing the caster problem with an archer problem". Higher level play balances this out because people actually die, and begin devoting feats to things like iron will and other defenses.
I've never understood the DR argument. If you have a good strength (14+) deadly aim puts you well above most melee in terms of damage. I've never really seen a good archer of any class hampered by DR more than anyone else in the party. They might be losing a little more of their damage on each hit percentage-wise but they're still getting 1-3 more attacks typically
He only bothers rolling because he wants to see if he gets a critical. Got one on a cloud giant last night, in fact -- 173 damage IIRC.
Mind breaking that one down? I'd be interested to see how he got to 173 damage.
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He only bothers rolling because he wants to see if he gets a critical. Got one on a cloud giant last night, in fact -- 173 damage IIRC.Mind breaking that one down? I'd be interested to see how he got to 173 damage.
I would too. I don't understand how an archer in an E8 game would do that much damage. I also am not sure why they are going against a cloud giant which is a CR 11 at minimum.I don't even know how the archer was able to target it since cloud giants have obscuring mist at will.
You should explain to your player that multishot, like 2-handed power-attacking, has a point where it seems stupidly powerful, but falls off in effectiveness thereafter.
Example:
A party of level 1 20 str power-attacking two-handed characters should kill everything from CR 1 to CR 2 in one to two hits. 10+dice is pretty intense damage (lets just say they are the type that loves using reach weapons and everyone is using either a Longspear or a Glaive.)
(LS)1d8+10 and (G)1d10+10 are pretty extreme damages for level 1. They will flat out kill most enemies in one hit, and it will most likely kill most PCs in one hit as well.
However this slowly moves away from being the most damaging form of attack as Ranged characters start to come into their own. Even then Multishot, rapid shot, and other feats are powerful with those feat slots. So it takes a little bit for Ranged characters to get off their feat. A character investing heavily in archery will have a Composite +5 Long Bow +2 or so by level 6 or 7, and with the archery feats that will be able to pump out more consistent damage than the Melee characters, hence making them the new powerhouses. Melee is still good, but ranged characters can do what melee characters do from distances that allow them a handful of full attacks first.
However, even this is trumped by full casters by level 10 at least. There is simply no denying the power of hold person, Slumber, or even a well placed offensive spell. Explain to your player that manyshot is not broken, it does not need a nerf, but instead it is at the height of its power so he should enjoy it while its power continues to hold up as it will slowly become less important to his damage output over time.
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Manyshot, in and of itself, is not overpowered.
Archery is just a strong option, but still, not overpowered.
When others go out of their way to create weak PCs, you will seem very strong, but this does not mean your PC is overpowered.
Various houserules can have a major effect on what is, and is not, powerful.
Various houserules can have a major effect on what is, and is not, powerful.
Aye brother.
To put this in more perspective I played a campaign once where the DM made it so the Gunslinger's ammo was as cheap as arrows, and the gun was as non-dangerous to use as a crossbow.It is my understanding that Gunslingers more or less throw their money at their targets since it is somewhat expensive to use guns in the timeframe that Pathfinder is placed in so this seemingly elegant houserule had major ramifications.
Certain feats are intended to be more powerful at certain levels, and typically when you can first take a feat is when said feat will be at the height of its power.
The typical archer progression is
Point-Blank Shot (Its ok, nothing spectacular. The power of the bow is its range.)
Rapid Shot (One extra attack at a -2 penalty? What isn't to love?)
Deadly Aim ({[-1 atk/+2 dmg] and per 4 bab} Extra damage for 5% less chance to hit when taken and ever 4 bab? Why not take it!)
Manyshot (On full round attacks can fire two arrows with first attack, can be used in conjunction with Rapid Shot.)
SO this means with a regular longbow the archer has
Range 100
3 attacks, first attack on hit adds deals damage as two attacks hitting.
+x(BAB+Dex+Masterwork/magic bonuses-4[Deadly aim{-2}, rapidshot{-2}]) 1d8+(4[Deadly aim]+magic bonus)
So this becomes 4d8+16 each round within a range of 100-ft, or on average 34 damage a round. A Barbarian with 16 con will have 75-hp by level 7 on average. His charge distance is 80, meaning the archer could theoretically get two full attacks. If all of them hit he would do 72[34+38{point blank shot}] damage to Barbarian, meaning that the following round the Barbarian will charge, and if he doesn't 1-shot the Archer the Archer will kill him next round in his full attack. If the Archer has at least a +1 weapon he kills said barbarian before the barbarian can get to him. If he is using a Composite Cross Bow that is magical and there ie extra damage from Composite and extra damage from magical the Barbarian is also extremely dead.
Melee is at its most powerful before level 7 I think, then Ranged takes over until casters start getting world changing spells, then casters are the most powerful.
However, this means very little in the grand scheme of things as power is more than simply damage output.
The OP's ranger is simply at that point where he is more powerful in his own way than the rest of the party. In the future he will be lower in power than the dedicated casters, so the point is to pat him on the back and tell him to enjoy it while it lasts.
When others go out of their way to create weak PCs, you will seem very strong[ . . . .]
The truest thing ever. Be wary, of OP, that Houserules can throw off the balance that was built into the game.
Just because you have the best tool, for the right situation, doesn't mean that tool is the best tool ever.
Exactly why Archery might be "better" than melee at level 7 and beyond, but melee doesn't become so antiquated that it is useless.
The melee guy could drop prone and just crawl towards the archer, he could have a towershield and casually walk up to him while granting himself complete cover.
The Best Tool Ever doesn't exist in Pathfinder. Even the Arcane Caster's Doom-ray Polar Blast is completely countered by Ray Shield. That Barbarian could drop prone and crawl forward at his increased rate due to his speed and just use his standard to go total defense each round, which would give him a +9 [+5 for prone, +4 for total defense] against the Archer. If he is wearing any armor at all this makes him neigh on impossible to hit. The same goes against a Ray oriented caster.