Orc Ferocity vs. Sacred Tattoo (PFS)


Advice


I'm having trouble deciding which of these competing racial traits to take on my half-orc warpriest of Abadar, before playing his first scenario at 2nd level and departing the comforting bosom of free retraining. Both seem to have strong synergy with his class and two-handed frontliner build.

Orc Ferocity: Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
PRO Fervor ability of warpriests (essentially single-target, touch-range, partial-dice-progression channel energy) can be used to heal self as swift action.
PRO No must-have feats at 1st level as a partial BAB class, making Ferocious Resolve an easy pickup.
CON 1st level feat could still be spent on generic survivability options like Improved Initiative or Toughness.

Sacred Tattoo: Half-orcs with this racial trait gain a +1 luck bonus on all saving throws. This racial trait replaces orc ferocity.
PRO Excellent combo with Fate's Favored, which also works well with luck bonuses from warpriest (cleric) spell list, eg. Divine Favor.
CON Warpriest already has good Fort and Will saves, and is Wis-based on top of that.

They both appear to be strong defensive options. Orc Ferocity seems better at surviving a worst-case encounter, while Sacred Tattoo seems better at avoiding that situation altogether. This character will likely receive my GM chronicles from a home game of Dragon's Demand, so he may skip several early levels if that matters. Has anyone had great success (or failure) with either of these racial traits?


I almost always take sacred tattoo. If you have the trait fate's favored, you get a +2 luck bonus to all saves.


Fate's Favored would be a given with Sacred Tatoo, though Ferocious Resolve could be dropped for something else with the other option.

Still mostly on the fence, but leaning towards Orc Ferocity. +2 to all saves is great and all, but while those advantages might come into play more often, being able to recover from a KO with the warpriest's swift action healing seems more likely to make the difference between victory and death.

I'm going return the character from hiatus soon, so I'm giving this thread a single bump in case anyone has more suggestions or advice.


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Well, why not both?

Sorta.

Take Sacred Tattoo and Shaman's Apprentice.

Then take Die Hard as your Feat (since you got Endurance as a bonus).

You lose a +2 to Intimidate, not a bad trade for a bonus Feat and the ability to have both of the things you want (in essence).

Take Deathless Initiate and Deathless Master later to be the true harbinger of Negative HP asskicking.

Shadow Lodge

I agree with Rynjin. You get Deathless feat access, free healing, a free feat, and you can sleep in medium armor.


Rynjin wrote:

Well, why not both?

Sorta.

Take Sacred Tattoo and Shaman's Apprentice.

Then take Die Hard as your Feat (since you got Endurance as a bonus).

You lose a +2 to Intimidate, not a bad trade for a bonus Feat and the ability to have both of the things you want (in essence).

Take Deathless Initiate and Deathless Master later to be the true harbinger of Negative HP asskicking.

Agree 100%. If u must choose then sacred. Always take sacred unless u can either boost ur saves through class features like divine grace, archaeologists luck, protection domain etc. the only time that orc ferocity truly shines that I've seen is when u get criticaled to go below positive AND u had the means to do a big heal to urself to stay in the fight.


I lean heavily towards Sacred Tattoo.
Even for your character who is WIS based, they aren't really as WIS-focused as a Caster Cleric/Druid, and the bonus applies to Fort/Ref Saves and pretty much means they can easily neglect investing in Save Boosts, while still having great Saves.

Ferocity just isn't that useful IMHO, especially being 1/day. Few attacks will really drop you from full HPs to negatives. Crits might, but you should get Crit negation or Fortification to deal with those, not just suck them up and rely on Ferocity (which doesn't really negate the damage, and leaves you Staggered vs. able to use Full Attacks). For normal attacks that take you into negatives after building up, instead of waiting until after you're hit, why not spend a Swift Action to heal yourself BEFORE it's critical?

Ferocious Resolve gets rid of the 1/day limitation, so is basically functioning like Diehard (without needing the Endurance pre-req), except that with Ferocious Resolve you lose 1 hp/round no matter what, while Diehard doesn't lose HPs unless you take a Standard Action or a 'strenuous' Swift Action like a Swift Spell. ...Actually, I'm not sure on Ferocious, it could be better if it's just working like being at Negative HPs normally, i.e. you lose HPs only if you fail a Stabilization Check: so you could potentially take even Standard/Swift Actions and not lose any HPs. Not really that big of a deal either way honestly.

Regardless, taking Ferocious Resolve instead of Toughness DOES mean that you won't qualify for any Feats with Toughness as a Pre-Req. Heroic Recovery/Defiance are pretty awesome. Drunken Brawler/Deny Death(Ki Pool only) are based off of Endurance, so if you want those, then the main advantage of Ferocious Resolve vs. Diehard (not needing Endurance Feat) pretty much disappears. Actually, the Deathless Initiate chain of Feats is also pretty awesome and is for Orcs/Half-Orcs, but also happens to require DIEHARD... So if you take Ferocious Resolve, you can't get those Feats. I'm going to post a question on that, just because it feels really weird, but that's the clear RAW for now.

->Sacred Tattoo


I always go with Sacred Tattoo and Shaman'e Apprentice.

I fear missing a save and sleeping in medium around is extremely helpful!


Don't forget that Sacred Tattoo is a luck bonus, meaning you're protected from Pugwampis right off the bat.


Ninja'd. Agree with Rynjin on Shaman's Apprentice.
Really, Ferocity ONLY makes sense to keep for somebody who will already have awesome Saves (e.g. Paladin or Caster Cleric/Druid to some extent), AND they plan on never spending any Feats on things like Ferocious Resolve/Diehard, or follow-on Feats (for the latter).

Basically, I only really see Ferocious Resolve being useful for Humans/Half-Elves/HumanityAasimar who would want to take Racial Heritage:Orc for some other Orc Feat ANYWAYS, and might also like picking up Ferocious Resolve. But it is the 'other Orc Feats' that make that coherent, as otherwise they could just get Diehard (qualifying for awesome Feats) and Endurance, whose minimal benefits are at least better than Racial Heritage on it's own.


Rynjin wrote:

Well, why not both?

Sorta.

Take Sacred Tattoo and Shaman's Apprentice.

Then take Die Hard as your Feat (since you got Endurance as a bonus).

You lose a +2 to Intimidate, not a bad trade for a bonus Feat and the ability to have both of the things you want (in essence).

Take Deathless Initiate and Deathless Master later to be the true harbinger of Negative HP asskicking.

That... is not a bad idea.

I don't know how useful Endurance will be in PFS, and Deathless Initiate is a long way off at 9th level, but Diehard looks all-around better than Ferocious Resolve anyway.

Thanks for the advice all, dilemma solved.

Liberty's Edge

This can depend somewhat on the style of game that you play and how often characters get knocked down below zero in encounters.

I am currently playing in a game where every encounter is built to nearly kill the party. CRs sometimes range up as high as double the APL and I don't remember an encounter where at least one character hasn't gone into negative HP (I actually expect the battle we are in now to end in TPK, but I have said that before)

In this campaign I would always choose Orc Ferocity, but in a more standard game I expect that Sacred Tattoo would be more helpful overall


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Zahmahkibo wrote:

Fate's Favored would be a given with Sacred Tatoo, though Ferocious Resolve could be dropped for something else with the other option.

Still mostly on the fence, but leaning towards Orc Ferocity. +2 to all saves is great and all, but while those advantages might come into play more often, being able to recover from a KO with the warpriest's swift action healing seems more likely to make the difference between victory and death.

I'm going return the character from hiatus soon, so I'm giving this thread a single bump in case anyone has more suggestions or advice.

Sorry a bit off-topic, how does a cleric get a swift action heal?

Dark Archive

Healing blessing of a warpriest allows you to swift action heal yourself (or any warpriest can do it if they use their "Fervor" like a lay-on-hands).

I actually prefer the feat off diehard that lets you be healed back up from high negatives; otherwise remaining standing at negative hp is scary.


Rerednaw wrote:
Zahmahkibo wrote:

Fate's Favored would be a given with Sacred Tatoo, though Ferocious Resolve could be dropped for something else with the other option.

Still mostly on the fence, but leaning towards Orc Ferocity. +2 to all saves is great and all, but while those advantages might come into play more often, being able to recover from a KO with the warpriest's swift action healing seems more likely to make the difference between victory and death.

I'm going return the character from hiatus soon, so I'm giving this thread a single bump in case anyone has more suggestions or advice.

Sorry a bit off-topic, how does a cleric get a swift action heal?

As you bolded, he's playing the Playtest version of the Warpriest, which has a mechanic similar to Lay on Hands.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Dorian 'Grey' wrote:
I always go with Sacred Tattoo and Shaman'e Apprentice.

Is it PFS legal to take two alt racial traits? Thanks.


Dracovaard wrote:
Dorian 'Grey' wrote:
I always go with Sacred Tattoo and Shaman'e Apprentice.
Is it PFS legal to take two alt racial traits? Thanks.

As long as they replace different things, yes.

EDIT: You did say PFS, so I should say I think so. I don't PFS so I'm not 100% sure.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

OK. The only reason I asked is as far as what I have read, you can only take one trait from each of the trait groups, i.e. racial, campaign, magic, faith and so on. Perhaps I'm wrong...wouldn't be the first time. Making a half-orc right now and trying to sort his traits...


Dracovaard wrote:
OK. The only reason I asked is as far as what I have read, you can only take one trait from each of the trait groups, i.e. racial, campaign, magic, faith and so on. Perhaps I'm wrong...wouldn't be the first time. Making a half-orc right now and trying to sort his traits...

You're confusing Racial Traits (as in the abilities that races get) and Traits (which are the half-feat things that characters get) that happen to include a Race category.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

So the "Alternate Racial Traits" (of which Sacred Tattoo is one of) are separate from other "Racial traits", correct? As in the ARTs are not considered racial traits proper? Hrm...that would open up a number of interesting possibilities, and not just with horcs...

OK thanks.


its a bad naming convention but yes alterante traits have nothing to do with racial traits....yeah see it sucks.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Sigh. I was just reading the Additional Resources section of the PFS site....can't make a Scarred Witch Doc for PFS. Darn it...


shaman's tattoo is almost always better. +1 (or +2 with the trait) to all saves on a bonus that's very unlikely to ever overlap? Starting at 1st level?

Your racial ability and a trait becomes the equivalent of 3 feats.

Honestly switching out the +2 intimidate for endurance is great as well. It does come up in a few scenarios in PFS, but more often you can say "I already have my armor on," when your character gets ambushed in the night.

Dark Archive

Only specific builds will want to keep the orc ferocity racial feature. Take the tattoo if you're not a specific build requiring the ferocity.

The only reason I can think of using orc ferocity is an extremely good reason but it's only useful for certain classes with a specific goal in mind.


What goal is that?

Dark Archive

Never dying from any hit point damage dealing attack roll ever.

Sovereign Court

Dark Immortal wrote:
Never dying from any hit point damage dealing attack roll ever.

Thing I don't like about that is that Ferocity is limited to once / day. If you're taking hits like that regularly, ferocity won't necessarily do a whole lot for you; you'll need to still rely on your party to heal you up.

You do need ferocity to qualify for certain feats though. Assuming you really want to build your character that way, you need ferocity. Otherwise, and considering what you can do with the tatoo, it's usually a better mechanical choice.

Dark Archive

Well, I assume that if you're taking the only feat that needs ferocity in the first place you have moved well beyond orc ferocity as a major tool for your build, though once per day being immune to death from an attack is still a pretty big deal....it's a ton better than other players options which are once per day when you are killed by an attack you die. :D

I have an immortal build that has diehard and deathless initiate and can fight to -30 while maintaining a static Dr of 4/- and an active Dr of 10/- by level 11. Being at negative 10-20, you want to be sure a lucky shot doesn't take you out. It's useful enough for those nasty surprise rounds that come up where a player goes from full to dead (or close to it) or those encounters where everything goes completely south. If you're actually trying to never die, this feat goes a -really long way to preventing it. Unfortunately, you have to have orc ferocity.

Grand Lodge

Half-Orc archaeologist bard can get pretty crazy with that sacred tattoo + fate's favored combo.


Indeed. Although ferocity has some nice flavor text to it, the simple fact is that if you don't have someone around already prepared to heal you, lagging on for an extra turn might just get you outright killed (This can vary from campaign to campaign depending on just how encounters are done of course) but that is my general consensus. Again, Ferocity is actually useful in my eyes for support characters who have access to their own swift healing. Otherwise, all you are really doing is a revenge blow or delaying the inevitable for an extra turn.

Sacred tattoo is not situational. Its useful all around with luck based bonuses that are exceptionally nice to have.


Headfirst wrote:
Half-Orc archaeologist bard can get pretty crazy with that sacred tattoo + fate's favored combo.

Not really, no.

CRB wrote:
A luck bonus represents good (or bad) fortune. Multiple luck bonuses on the same character or object do not stack. Only the highest luck bonus applies.

Only the highest one works, basically. As such, sacred tattoo only matches the bard's luck early on, and it is over shadowed later on.

It has some small value since sacred tattoo always on, and works before your first turn where you turn your archaeologist's luck on. Ergo, it is great so you don't end up with your pants caught down in the surprise round. But that is relatively minor, and the times that comes up (and it is of dire importance... since bard already have good will saves, so they aren't weak to the typical TPK causing spells) is in the same realm of 1/day fercity.

For the original, necro'd discussion- I would go with sacred tattoo, since warpriests and clerics have bad reflex. And that tends to be the save for the direct damage spells (fire ball being a prime example). Thus, it may well reduce the likelihood of needing to be above 0 hp cause a caster or two (or something with SLAs) got some lucky shots in.


lemeres wrote:
It has some small value since sacred tattoo always on, and works before your first turn where you turn your archaeologist's luck on. Ergo, it is great so you don't end up with your pants caught down in the surprise round. But that is relatively minor, and the times that comes up (and it is of dire importance... since bard already have good will saves, so they aren't weak to the typical TPK causing spells) is in the same realm of 1/day fercity.

This is why I like it. Surprise rounds, ambushes and anything that makes you "paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round".

A 1/2 orc Archaeologist with a Tuned Bowstring in where it's at! :)

Sczarni

My PFS bard with orcish ferocity is now lvl 11 and I am of the opinion that it is the stupidest, baddest, superworst racial trait ever. Why? Imagine this situation (happened to me a lot of times):

You are in front of baddy X. Baddy X has 3 attacks. After 2 attacks, you are at -11, but still standing! Huzzah! Thank you orcish heritage! Then the third attack comes in, as baddy X only sees an enemy still standing, not realizing any normal man would have been desd by now.

All in all this ability will help youndie more often than live.

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