Expert Rules. Please. Please. Please.


Beginner Box

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I think (if Paizo wanted to spend the extra resources, which they don't) that a smaller supplement would do. Perhaps a guide to converting feats or skills from core rules to beginner box rules would do.

Really, one can take the online posting of the core rules and "take what they like" and transplant it directly into bb. I've done that a few times with little in the way of problems. I just ignore or alter what doesn't make sense or simply use the concept and make my own house rules for it.

I think the Strategy Guide is a great product to bridge the gap from bb to core rules. I like the concept of walking you through parts of the core rules like generating a character and working with a character concept. That's exactly what I've wanted from Paizo. A helpful bridge.

The Exchange

Sounds intriguing. I must admit that while I enjoy PF, prep work can be a chore. A book that focuses on how PF can be slimmed down & still playable is quite a notion, so I hope that the Strategy Guide can be approached from the opposite direction (having the full game & wanting it to prep easier/run faster.)

Lantern Lodge

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Paizo already makes an "expert rules" version of the Beginner Box. It's called the Core Rulebook. No one said you have to use all the complicated rules in the book; as a GM you can slim it down as much as you like without really breaking the system too badly at low levels.


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I think you have missed what expert rules are, it applies to the character level not amount of crunchy rules. From the Basic (PC levels 1~3) and, Expert (level 4~14) Sets of 'classic' or 'basic' D&D (aka B/X or BECMI.

So people are asking for another box/book that is the same as the beginner box but going from level 6 to higher. Same awesome production values, same clever layout and same neat art set up. Same paired down rules too!

Not that it would happen unless a 3PP does it, which is possible under the OGL. But it would need a kickstarter or something to make it cool enough IMO.


mach1.9pants wrote:

I think you have missed what expert rules are, it applies to the character level not amount of crunchy rules. From the Basic (PC levels 1~3) and, Expert (level 4~14) Sets of 'classic' or 'basic' D&D (aka B/X or BECMI.

So people are asking for another box/book that is the same as the beginner box but going from level 6 to higher. Same awesome production values, same clever layout and same neat art set up. Same paired down rules too!

Not that it would happen unless a 3PP does it, which is possible under the OGL. But it would need a kickstarter or something to make it cool enough IMO.

That clears up a lot. Yeah, I'd like even a spreadsheet of additional levels and appropriate feats, spells, etc... It would reduce prep time for leveling and such instead of choosing and converting such from core rules.

Does anyone think it would be better to convert from Core Rules or for a 3PP to create their own feats/spells for the upper levels? I'm thinking it would be cool to have a little of both...


Not to be beating a dead horse or trying to shut anyone down but...

Paizo has made it pretty clear that if you want a less crunchy role playing game and are not happy with the Beginner Box as a complete game or for what it is a introduction to Pathfinder core for new players, Find another game.

They can't please everyone and realize this. So instead they focus there efforts on what they are good at and what keeps there company going...Pathfinder!

What if they did make a expert set? I'm sure based on the Beginner Box it would be GREAT! Now you have rules 6-10! GREAT!!

How long do you think it would be until they started to get requests and complaints for more? Why can't our characters go over 10th level? This game is great but the 10th level max is just crippling! Where are the adventures for this optional version of Pathfinder? Why does our game have so little support?

What would it do to sales of Pathfinder Core? What projects would have to be shelved or delayed to deal with this?

Really I don't think they even want a third party to advance this cause. I think they just want you to play the Pathfinder full game and if you are unhappy with that...sorry man,they did there best.

Not every game can be for everyone and in the rpg field there are PLENTY of really good games of every type.

I would personally love a Beginner Box/Pathfinder Lite version of the game.Heck I even think it could be made compatible with the full version of the game but I realize that it would be TONS of work,most of there fan base wouldn't use it and it would take away from projects already in the works.

Lantern Lodge

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

My point was, you can use the CRB as an Expert Beginner Box (if that's not a contradiction). It's about 95% compatible with the BB, where they overlap, and the very few discrepancies might not even be noticed the first time through. If you're not happy with the amount of rules made available by the CRB, throw them out! Don't understand combat maneuvers? Gone! Can't figure out what a particular spell is supposed to do? Strike it from the list! Can't get your head around the intricacies of two-weapon fighting? Don't do that, then! The game is surprisingly robust to home modifications of this nature. Even fairly major (but complicated) systems like ability damage can be removed: if you just ignore all mentions of it, and avoid using spells that deal it or monsters for whom it's a primary mechanic, the game lurches along just fine, at least through 10th level or so.

As you gain more familiarity with the game, you can (and probably should) consider reinstating some of the systems you threw out during your transition from the Beginner Box. Regardless, Paizo is absolutely never, ever going to make an "extension" for the beginner box, because doing so would very obviously split their customer base, which is automatic death for any niche industry.


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Paul Zagieboylo wrote:

My point was, you can use the CRB as an Expert Beginner Box (if that's not a contradiction). It's about 95% compatible with the BB, where they overlap, and the very few discrepancies might not even be noticed the first time through. If you're not happy with the amount of rules made available by the CRB, throw them out! Don't understand combat maneuvers? Gone! Can't figure out what a particular spell is supposed to do? Strike it from the list! Can't get your head around the intricacies of two-weapon fighting? Don't do that, then! The game is surprisingly robust to home modifications of this nature. Even fairly major (but complicated) systems like ability damage can be removed: if you just ignore all mentions of it, and avoid using spells that deal it or monsters for whom it's a primary mechanic, the game lurches along just fine, at least through 10th level or so.

As you gain more familiarity with the game, you can (and probably should) consider reinstating some of the systems you threw out during your transition from the Beginner Box. Regardless, Paizo is absolutely never, ever going to make an "extension" for the beginner box, because doing so would very obviously split their customer base, which is automatic death for any niche industry.

This. Very, very much this. The downside is that giant, intimidating tome, unfortunately. However, the new Strategy Guide should help out a lot there, too.

Honestly, from the perspective of a newly-minted BB player, the CRB is just a list of extra options, it's not an all-or-nothing thing. If you already know the d20 core mechanic from the BB (and anyone who's played the BB will) then you can pick and mix extra rules from the CRB and add them in one or two at a time until you find the complexity of game you want.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Matt Thomason wrote:
Honestly, from the perspective of a newly-minted BB player, the CRB is just a list of extra options, it's not an all-or-nothing thing. If you already know the d20 core mechanic from the BB (and anyone who's played the BB will) then you can pick and mix extra rules from the CRB and add them in one or two at a time until you find the complexity of game you want.

It's like slowly boiling a frog. :)

AoO's aren't hard to get your head around when they're just another rule incrementally added to your game. Same with the other additional rules.

If the core rulebook scares off players, just remind them that the bulk of it is "just a ton of new spells, magic items, and classes" and that they're already mostly familiar with the rules anyway.

Grand Lodge

I started playing D&D in 1978, just as the original edition was giving way to AD&D. The AD&D rule set was much more rigid than original D&D had been. In original D&D if you wanted a character who was a Hill Giant or a Martian Thark then you created one. AD&D was developed as the set of rules to be used for tournament play. The Holmes Basic Set (blue box) pointed players to AD&D if they wanted to go beyond 3rd level. In this case Holmes = PFR BB.

But then, as AD&D took off, there were those (myself included) who longed for the simpler, free-form play of the original rules but without all the messy supplements and magazine articles you needed.

So, TSR developed the basic/expert line, first as a set written and edited by Moldvay and Cook (1981), and later by Frank Mentzer (1983). The Mentzer rules are the ones that became the Basic, Expert, Companion, Masters and Immortal (BECMI) rules.

The dual rule sets did fracture and/or confuse the fans and customers. The settings were also different: AD&D was kinda/sorta set in Greyhawk, while D&D was set in Mystara. That added to the confusion. And sure, there was a lot of common ground between the two but the rules were just different enough to make it weird.

Having said all that, I want to add that I love the PFR BB.
We actually play it over and over again, rather than moving to the Core Rules. And I would love a PFR "expert set" but I just don't see Paizo dividing the base like that.


I see plenty of threads/posts about playing with Beginner Box rules and just using that for adventures instead of Pathfinder Core. Its like playing an E5 campaign that has none of what everyone complains about when playing Pathfinder proper. I say that making companion products for the Beginner Box as a E5 line isn't farfetched but if Paizo doesn't want to do it is there any legal leeway for third party publishers to do it? There's a demand for it and I wouldn't mind having a Pathfinder Lite system for players that are slow to pick up the core rules and be able to play a year long campaign. A while ago I found some free fan made feats/races/classes for the beginner box and they are amazing, so why not? Right now I have Fate, Fudge, and maybe eventually D&D 5e for my go to 'simple' systems but if Beginner Box rules were expanded to be a diverse but simple E5 campaign system my money would go to that.

Contributor

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Well, there's this option, written by the primary author of the Beginner Box... >:)

Liberty's Edge

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Sean, I like many of your ideas and have enjoyed your work for many years. (Your Scarlet Brotherhood supplement for Greyhawk made that group a favorite villain of mine.)

I do feel that splitting the base did not help TSR. Let me share this link Acquiring TSR in which Ryan Dancey.

Either moving onto the full PFRPG or finding another system seems better than splitting an existing customer base. No game can satisfy everyone, so my advice is to find something that fits your needs.


I remember there was a really good resource a while back where someone converted a lot of core material to BB including races and classes. I remember I used a lot of it to introduce a new group to the game then converted it regular game.

Oh also used their Omega Box rules, beginner box gamma world!


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Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
William Ronald wrote:

Sean, I like many of your ideas and have enjoyed your work for many years. (Your Scarlet Brotherhood supplement for Greyhawk made that group a favorite villain of mine.)

I do feel that splitting the base did not help TSR. Let me share this link Acquiring TSR in which Ryan Dancey.

Either moving onto the full PFRPG or finding another system seems better than splitting an existing customer base. No game can satisfy everyone, so my advice is to find something that fits your needs.

Any business owner would do well to read and understand Dancey's post.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Freedom16 wrote:

I remember there was a really good resource a while back where someone converted a lot of core material to BB including races and classes. I remember I used a lot of it to introduce a new group to the game then converted it regular game.

Oh also used their Omega Box rules, beginner box gamma world!

The converted classes are all at EdOWar's Blog - see the Beginner Box downloads on the linked page. There's BB versions of all Pathfinder Core classes released before the ACG, plus extra races and feats.

Liberty's Edge

Ed Reppert wrote:
William Ronald wrote:

Sean, I like many of your ideas and have enjoyed your work for many years. (Your Scarlet Brotherhood supplement for Greyhawk made that group a favorite villain of mine.)

I do feel that splitting the base did not help TSR. Let me share this link Acquiring TSR in which Ryan Dancey.

Either moving onto the full PFRPG or finding another system seems better than splitting an existing customer base. No game can satisfy everyone, so my advice is to find something that fits your needs.

Any business owner would do well to read and understand Dancey's post.

I believe that his post should be passed out by professors in business schools as it shows how a company can go from a success to a failure. I only learned that TSR had come into a crisis when Dragon magazine was unavailable and was pleased that WotC came to the rescue. I think that the first thing that a business leaders need to do is listen to their customers.

There are many good games out there, and if Pathfinder does not work for a group try others. Having read what Sean K. Reynolds is working on, I will say that I like many of his ideas. (Ironically, I have been in games where fighters were dominant because the players used every supplement that they could get their hands on and had a ton of magic items. That and the GM did not understand campaign balance very well despite being a great story teller.)


I don't really see them raising the "level cap" but it would be nice to have more BB compatible products for the 1-5 range. Like a Sandpoint guide with adventures for levels 2-5 for example. ;)

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