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Pathfinder made huge steps to eliminate blanket immunities for PCs. SoS CSIS Resonance power was a mistake. At the very least, make it like mind blank and give it a +10, but to be more in-line with the rest of the resonance powers, it should be a +2 or +4 vs. those effects and not reference PfE.And yet Magical Marketplace also created the incredibly powerful Saline purge, which I think most people can understand why that is banned from PFS. :)
Saline Purge was also errataed to fix the brokenness.
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Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover
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Apparently, this is not only a PFS thing, but also a design question.
We, players and GM´s of the PFS community can express our experiences and opinions here. However, perhaps you should also go to the product thread and express your opinion there. I´m sure the designers will appreciate that. They said on many occasions we decide things with our wallets, but to see something you legally have to buy it first actually. So, after buying it, you can still express your thoughts and point out things you liked or not and the reasons for it.
My personal opinion is, apart from all flavor and fluff questions, that there should be a clear line in the crunch section, which some things clearly cross. The resonant power there and this new armor enhancement are among them, as well as the endless discussion about gunslingers and summoners. On the other hand, some classes and things really don´t see a lot of backup, taking that sniping enhancement from Magical market place as an example.
That might be ok in home games, but according to my experience most if not all GM´s running home campaigns restrict those things heavily or clearly ban them too. Many here even agree on accepting PFS guidelines due to the better powercheck and then ban some.
So, fell free to visit the product page and discuss this there too.
Otherwise, your feedback might not have a lot consequences.
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Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover
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This is especially true for PFS GM´s with a lot of stars, because obviously they have a lot of experience and see a lot of things in the field and can give they designers some valuable feedback.
Even though playtests for some things are over, Paizo still might listen to your suggestions.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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This comment may be a tangent, and folks who want to follow the main thrust of the discussion might side step it.
The resonant power of the clear spindle ioun stone has a major drawback: there's only one stone slot in the generic wayfinder. And there are several ioun stones with cool resonant powers. (For example, the incadescent blue sphere grants Blind Fight as a bonus feat. The emerald ellipsoid doubles its potency.)
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Unless I'm mistaken, this enchantment is the only way to get immunity from such effects originating from neutral creatures. This is an incredibly strong enchantment.From strictly neutral creatures yes. However, protection from law/chaos would still provide protection from LN or CN creatures.
Yes, and there is a big difference between having to cast 4 protection spells to almost set this enchantment up manually for minutes, versus having one enchantment provide complete protection all day every day.
This enchantment is significantly more powerful than the sum of those 4 spells. I would also like to argue that having to prepare and cast the 4 protection spells to provide this sort of protection is actually more expensive than the cost of this enchantment in terms of practicality. Such protection costs 4 spell slots a day (or three I suppose if you have a CSIS), and unless you have an enormous amount of pearls of power, you're basically only going to get it one combat a day, too. This is therefore much more expensive, and far less potent than having this armor enchantment.
Also, this is actually not true yet:
I'm arguing that as far as charm and compulsion go, that school is already invalidated for PFS scenarios, past or future.
If somebody wants to write a scenario that uses mind control effects, they already have to use true neutral creatures to have any sort of success due to the prevalence of CSIS and prot from evil in society scenarios. (I suppose they could toss it up by having a good aligned enchanter for the lulz, because nobody prepares prot from good!) True neutral casters are still an option to prevent this school from being invalidated, so your claim is actually false. People writing scenarios just need to take this into account if they want this school to be functional.
This enchantment completely eliminates the hazard provided by those set of spells. We can talk about how race already protects against some of the spells, or how all of the prot from alignment will protect from almost all situations. But all of those are still not as good, and factually weaker, than complete immunity from that entire class of spells all the time.
It's really too strong.
So you're suggesting that not only do we invalidate a significant proportion of existing scenarios, but we also remove the effective viability of that kind of effect from new scenarios which are written?
I'm not suggesting that at all when I state that there are other options, some of which may be more fun.
Let me ask another question entirely though, are the spells it invalidates fun? In particular, for players?
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I've seen quite a few players using the spells themselves, so I believe that yes, Save or Suck spells are fun for players.
I think you missed the point.
When an NPC/monster falls to a SoS/SoD, you just go on with the game.
When a PC falls to the same tactic, they no longer get to play.
Presumably, playing the game is more fun than not playing the game.
At least, I think that's the point he was trying to make.
EDIT: Come to think of it, when folks complain about overpowered, combat-crushing PC builds, the usual mantra is "Everyone should get a chance to participate". I think it would be reasonable to keep that same idea in mind when determining the appropriateness of gear that guards against things which remove that chance to participate.
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I've seen quite a few players using the spells themselves, so I believe that yes, Save or Suck spells are fun for players.Presumably, playing the game is more fun than not playing the game.
At least, I think that's the point he was trying to make.
If the SoS is a dominate, I can think of a couple of people who love PVP!
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If the SoS is a dominate, I can think of a couple of people who love PVP!I've seen quite a few players using the spells themselves, so I believe that yes, Save or Suck spells are fun for players.Presumably, playing the game is more fun than not playing the game.
At least, I think that's the point he was trying to make.
Haha, fair point. :)
At least, I think that's the point he was trying to make.
It was! Good logic too.
(Personally I like spells like battering blast better. Not so much a game ender but loads of fun to use! Who doesn't want to Hadouken people?)
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I've seen quite a few players using the spells themselves, so I believe that yes, Save or Suck spells are fun for players.I think you missed the point.
When an NPC/monster falls to a SoS/SoD, you just go on with the game.
When a PC falls to the same tactic, they no longer get to play.
Presumably, playing the game is more fun than not playing the game.
At least, I think that's the point he was trying to make.
EDIT: Come to think of it, when folks complain about overpowered, combat-crushing PC builds, the usual mantra is "Everyone should get a chance to participate". I think it would be reasonable to keep that same idea in mind when determining the appropriateness of gear that guards against things which remove that chance to participate.
Personally, I think anything on the table for the PCs should be on the table for NPCs. Even if it means temporarily losing control of your character. That includes Dominate, Charm, Confusion, and in my ideal world, things like Diplomacy and Intimidate.
I find paralysis to be a lot more frustrating than domination. At least when dominated, I still get to do stuff. I don't see many people clamoring to have ghouls removed from the game.
If you're really that scared of mind-affecting effects, just pick up a scroll (or wand) of unbreakable heart and hand it to your friendly neighborhood bard, cleric/oracle 1, paladin, ranger, or witch.
Who doesn't want to Hadouken people?Zangief?
Hmm... Maybe I should've used Dragon Ball Z as an example instead. Who doesn't want to Kamehameha people?
Personally, I think anything on the table for the PCs should be on the table for NPCs. Even if it means temporarily losing control of your character. That includes Dominate, Charm, Confusion, and in my ideal world, things like Diplomacy and Intimidate.
Eh, I'm a believer than PCs are different than NPCs personally.
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When a PC falls to the same tactic, they no longer get to play.
Thats no different than a single attack roll or a quick succession of attacks that drop the PC into the negatives. So unless you are wanting to get rid of everything that can do that as well, I dont think your (or if that IS his point, then his) point has any bearing.
When a PC falls to the same tactic, they no longer get to play.Thats no different than a single attack roll or a quick succession of attacks that drop the PC into the negatives. So unless you are wanting to get rid of everything that can do that as well, I dont think your (or if that IS his point, then his) point has any bearing.
Sort of. Ideally you shouldn't want to drop anyone down in one turn probably. I never considered it fun when my PC was focused down before I even got a chance to move. Again, hard to have fun in a game you can't play in.
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Honestly I don't think I can recall a single situation where an enchantment has not been a blast, my experience has been that the player still gets to play their character and usually has a great time. Things have got nail biting a couple of times, but the worst case is one character turned against the party, which is generally fine. I've not played much PFS though, and only low level scenarios, but I cannot see why there would be much difference.
Honestly I don't think I can recall a single situation where an enchantment has not been a blast, my experience has been that the player still gets to play their character and usually has a great time.
My experiences have been the opposite, sans one guy who really wanted to kill his party before he got hit with the suggestion spell. You lost a will save, walk into the water. You lost a will save, walk into the harpy. You lost a will save, can I see your character sheet. You lost a will save, slit your own throat.
Don't suppose you have stories?
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Honestly I don't think I can recall a single situation where an enchantment has not been a blast, my experience has been that the player still gets to play their character and usually has a great time. Things have got nail biting a couple of times, but the worst case is one character turned against the party, which is generally fine. I've not played much PFS though, and only low level scenarios, but I cannot see why there would be much difference.
It has been my experience that some people derive a certain amount of their enjoyment of RPGs through their ability to control the game. You can make someone who is REALLY GOOD AT GOING FIRST. Or REALLY GOOD AT HITTING STUFF. For these players, anything that makes them lose that sense of control is extremely upsetting, including mind control and being knocked unconscious.
Not saying that's the case for anyone in this conversation. Just something I've observed.
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I don't mean to be rude, but I think the conversation of whether mind control is a tactic that people like used against them is kind of beside the point of whether this armor enhancement should be allowed.
I mean, there's lots of stuff that people don't like happening to them such as ability drain, negative levels, haunts, getting shot in the face, etc. There are ways to deal with (most) of those things, but they're generally in the form of spells our resistance bonuses that provide some short term mitigation.
I don't mean to be rude, but I think the conversation of whether mind control is a tactic that people like used against them is kind of beside the point of whether this armor enhancement should be allowed.
Whether or not something is fun should weight heavily on whether its okay to remove it or not, imo. Supposing that adding the enhancement really does remove it.
Mind you the examples of drain and being attacked are widely different than just losing your character after one roll. You usually have a chance to react or position or do something... usually. I've seen some guys get insta-gibbed or focused down pretty quickly before they ever get to move. Active things that allow for reactions and active prevention tend to be more exciting than just rolling.(imo, ofc).
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Who doesn't want to Hadouken people?Zangief?Hmm... Maybe I should've used Dragon Ball Z as an example instead. Who doesn't want to Kamehameha people?
THIS THREAD DERAIL IS OVER 9000!!!
On track: from a design standpoint, the armor enchantment is too overpowered for it's low cost.
So at this juncture, I doubt it will be unbanned in PFS.
Mind Buttressing is one of the few Armor Enchantments that are actually worth it's cost. besides brawling and fortification in particular circumstances.
immunity to charm and compulsion isn't an issue when most BBEGs were already evil to begin with, and there was already a means to gain permanent protection from evil.
considering the limited wealth pre-12th level. +2 enhancement eats heavily into the bonuses of your armor until 15th level or so. it's a price that scales with the price of the armor.
plus, there is an Ioun Stone Wayfinder Combo that gives your character permanent protection from evil for a little under half the price. Paizo likes their evil baddies evil, and this armor enhancement, only grants immunity to 2 subschools of enchantment. charm and compulsion
if i ran a home game, i'd allow mind buttressing. heck, i'd allow it on any armor.
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Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover
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That is exactly what i am thinking and tried to point out in the product thread there, so far seemingly unheard.
The sniping weapon enhancement as a +2 for characters with sneak attack is a considerable joke compared with that. The difference of impact on hte game between those two items and their cost is just ridiculous.
Active things that allow for reactions and active prevention tend to be more exciting than just rolling.(imo, ofc).If active prevention is more interesting doesn't allowing this enhancement do the exact opposite of that?
Depends on how you define opposite. Its passive prevention for something with no to little(majorily no) active prevention, and no reaction from the players who fail the save after its been done. He no longer becomes a participant. Same with most safe or dies. You just end up watching really until something maybe lets you play again... maybe. Meanwhile, a guy who creates a fire, a pit, or attacks an NPC, all those create a moment where all the players get to react, and possibly try to prevent something from happening.
The sniping weapon enhancement as a +2 for characters with sneak attack is a considerable joke compared with that. The difference of impact on hte game between those two items and their cost is just ridiculous.
Something to consider is if the sniping enchant is maybe overpriced or that we need more enchants that people see as attractive or valuable. That said, this one is more all purpose, and sneak attack, ranged sneak attack in particular, has a lot of issues of its own.
Whoa. Didn't see that. Is there an announcement made anywhere when something that was legal is no longer legal? Even now the "red text" only highlights the change to the diabolist. If I didn't read this thread I might never have realized that.Here's a random thought: Imagine what will happen if a diabolist gets mind controlled, blows someone up with hellfire ray and they fail the save. Better hope the NPC you pay prestige to for raise dead gets good on its caster level check rolls, otherwise you ain't coming back. It's a nice little piece of what might happen if someone happens to get caught in that dominate and/or charm monster.Hellfire Ray is not a legal spell. It (and other spells from that book except Visions of Hell) was removed in one of the last few Additional resource updates as a legal option.
What is the status of this?
Regardless of whether the spell is normally illegal, if the Diabolist is granting it, that seems allowed.The Diabolist is a legal source and is thus a legal aspect granting everything it grants (an SLA replicating Hellfire Ray, in this case).
If an aspect of a class/etc is meant to be illegal, that is normally called out.
When a legal rule is calling out "At 8th level, a diabolist may use hellfire ray twice per day.",
Why shouldn't that be true??, even if Hellfire Ray is not a legal spell in general?
There isn't any rule preventing Classes from granting unique, non-generically available SLA's/options, AFAIK...?
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Active things that allow for reactions and active prevention tend to be more exciting than just rolling.(imo, ofc).If active prevention is more interesting doesn't allowing this enhancement do the exact opposite of that?Depends on how you define opposite. Its passive prevention for something with no to little(majorily no) active prevention, and no reaction from the players who fail the save after its been done. He no longer becomes a participant. Same with most safe or dies. You just end up watching really until something maybe lets you play again... maybe. Meanwhile, a guy who creates a fire, a pit, or attacks an NPC, all those create a moment where all the players get to react, and possibly try to prevent something from happening.
The sniping weapon enhancement as a +2 for characters with sneak attack is a considerable joke compared with that. The difference of impact on hte game between those two items and their cost is just ridiculous.Something to consider is if the sniping enchant is maybe overpriced or that we need more enchants that people see as attractive or valuable. That said, this one is more all purpose, and sneak attack, ranged sneak attack in particular, has a lot of issues of its own.
You have just as much of a chance to stop an enchantment spell as any other. You can disrupt the casting, or you can make the save. Same for *every* other spell.
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Enchantment spells are much more susceptible to dispel magic than SoD spells.
Anyway,
immunity to charm and compulsion isn't an issue when most BBEGs were already evil to begin with
One alignment is one thing, all alignments is another. And the keyword in the quote is "most." Just because evil enchanters are already a joke doesn't mean that all enchanters need to be a joke, too.
plus, there is an Ioun Stone Wayfinder Combo that gives your character permanent protection from evil for a little under half the price. Paizo likes their evil baddies evil, and this armor enhancement, only grants immunity to 2 subschools of enchantment. charm and compulsion
CSIS provides permanent protection from evil, which is still not as good as permanent protection from all alignments, including true neutral (which there is no way to get normally). This enchantment basically takes the enchantment school, minus sleep, and renders it completely useless. It is way too cheap for what it does. And as you astutely point out, there aren't really any other compelling armor enchantments, this would become a "must buy." It's more than worth it's cost, which means it has very little competition.
considering the limited wealth pre-12th level. +2 enhancement eats heavily into the bonuses of your armor until 15th level or so. it's a price that scales with the price of the armor.
My 12th level cleric going into EotT had 20k excess gold sitting around that he had nothing better to do with than buy spell components (onyx and diamonds EVERYWHERE) and random gear upgrades. 9k is pretty trivial for immunity to possession and mind control from any source. This is really too strong for a +2 armor bonus.
You have just as much of a chance to stop an enchantment spell as any other. You can disrupt the casting, or you can make the save. Same for *every* other spell.
Did I say otherwise?
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At first I didn't think this was too over powered, but after seeing all the arguments I'm glad this item is not allowed into PFS. This option is way too powerful since it protects from all alignments.
Glad this isn't allowed into PFS, though it might be nice for a high tier 7-11 scenario chronicle sheet. That be a good way to let the item into play without it being on every character that wears medium or heavy armor..
Got dominated by a succubus and used to infiltrate one of the Eberron druidic sects with my Shifter, the party thought she was my cohort. There was loads of intrigue - I had to leave the room a lot - and the party wizard somehow figured out the ruse. But she had me wearing a vest made of these scarrab flesh boring things that gnawed through flesh and told the party if they did not go along with her scheme I would die. I had to win a combat against a dire bear single handed in order to meet the head of the order so she could attempt to slay him, um, she managed to kill him, but he was a fake and the real leader was an awakened tree. I think he destroyed the scarrabs and he imprisoned her in a spear? Got to keep the spear which was an intelligent item, and eventually she became my actual cohort. Something like that, it was a crazy awesome campaign, helped by the dominated guy has to get pissed rule that we had at the time.
I remember tonnes of fun charm persons mostly with characters trying to stop their two sets of friends fighting. I know I got given a time out in a forcecage once by our charmed wizard - he had rolled a three for his wisdom and never seemed to make a will save. It was somekind of spider creature and was slowly wrapping him up in a web while I pleaded with him. Fun!
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At first I didn't think this was too over powered, but after seeing all the arguments I'm glad this item is not allowed into PFS. This option is way too powerful since it protects from all alignments.
But as has been discussed several times in this thread, there's not that many scenarios that have a neutral caster that has the enchantment school of magic. So even though there is this fear of abuse against neutral casters, there aren't many situations where this alignment bonus could be applicable.
Banning broken things should be done due to their being broken, not due to scenario distribution, for principled reasons and because who knows what is yet to come. If Magical Marketplace had a 50 gp item that said "If you fight a demon in a dwarven Sky Citadel that was not in the citadel as a result of your own character's actions or the actions of fellow PCs, your character gains a +5 inherent bonus to all 6 ability scores for as long as you are this item's owner, even if you leave it in the Grand Lodge where it can never be sundered. In case you're curious, this effect is part of the item's powers, not a spell effect, and lasts beyond the end of PFS scenarios.", right now it wouldn't break PFS to allow it (unless someone got really creative with weaseling in an outside demon in a certain scenario). But by the end of the season, it sure might actually come up. And even if it doesn't come up, it's a broken item.
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this is the second most united lynch mob I've ever seen... sorry Tarma.
TORCHES, pitchforks.. get em while they're hot!
Was the most united one that time during the ARG playtest when the world stood still, as 100% of all playtesters, without a single dissent, united against the intent of the designers to make all the core races have the same RP, even if it meant that some of the abilities were intentionally undercosted or overcosted to make it fit?
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Was the most united one that time during the ARG playtest when the world stood still, as 100% of all playtesters, without a single dissent, united against the intent of the designers to make all the core races have the same RP, even if it meant that some of the abilities were intentionally undercosted or overcosted to make it fit?this is the second most united lynch mob I've ever seen... sorry Tarma.
TORCHES, pitchforks.. get em while they're hot!
Wait,..that was real? I thought that was from the post surgery drugs, like the gummi bears cooking up crystal meth...
Firstly, as has been explained above: yes, the spells it eliminates are fun. Have you considered a petition to ban the Enchantment school? Perhaps to ban "save-or-die" effects?
Quick, lets throw things off topic by talking about unrelated things and creating strawmen and using hyperbole!
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Firstly, as has been explained above: yes, the spells it eliminates are fun. Have you considered a petition to ban the Enchantment school? Perhaps to ban "save-or-die" effects?Quick, lets throw things off topic by talking about unrelated things and creating strawmen and using hyperbole!
Hello! And welcome to the forums.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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MrSin, Mekkis seems to be on target. You've complained about an entire class of spells, expressing frustration that they are even part of the game.
Let's reverse it: what elements of the Enchantment school do you think have a positive impact on Pathfinder? What are your favorite spells which disable a victim who fails a saving throw?
MrSin, Mekkis seems to be on target. You've complained about an entire class of spells, expressing frustration that they are even part of the game.
I have not complained about an entire school of spells. That would be a strawman. When you can quote me saying that enchantment spells only ruin the game or some such then you can say I have done so.