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Dwarven superstitious barbarians, everyone.
Inquisitor. Never leaf home without it.
Hmmm. All of them work fairly well, but some fit a little better thematically. Cavalier maybe isn't the best choice especially early on just because of some tighter dungeons/encounter areas.
Thematically: Based on the region, themes, magic items, and feel, I'd say wizards, barbarians, rangers, and sorcerers fit the best in general. For a divine class, a druid has some cool stuff they can do early on and fits well with the region too. But really, anything works pretty well as long as you connect it to the area and story.
Well, there's a huge amount of stuff that will fit and very few classes that would have a hard time fitting into the AP.
This isn't hyperbole, I certainly would not say this same thing about Skull & Shackles, for example.
One thing I've done, however, as an AP GM (that I learned from the GM who runs the RotRL game I play in) is to require all players to take one of their two Traits from the Player's Guide for that AP.
It adds a bit of flavor and generally equips them with a skill, bonus or ability that they'll find very useful in the campaign.
Hmmm. All of them work fairly well, but some fit a little better thematically. Cavalier maybe isn't the best choice especially early on just because of some tighter dungeons/encounter areas.
Have to disagree with you, Daethor. One, my wife plays a halfling cavalier in our own RotRL game and she has had little to no trouble with this.
Two, even if a player's PC is medium-sized with a Large-sized mount, there have been some items, spells and feats introduced in Ultimate Equipment, Animal Archive, Knights of the Inner Sea, etc. that have taken a lot of the difficulty out of playing such a character, regardless of enclosed nature of the setting.
I ran half of it with a druid, paladin, ranger, and summoner. I felt like this was a very low-religion AP - my paladin didn't have any skin in the game except just generally being LG. Maybe that changes later? Everyone else fit in just fine.
Knowing what I do from reading/running it, I think I would most like play a wizard or an inquisitor. But that's heavily influenced by personal preferences, too.
In general I think most classes will do well in RotRL, it's probably easier to single out classes that might have a hard time:
Gunslingers - this AP was written before the gunslinger was devised - like many other APs there is no gunslinger support in the AP period. Not in itself a huge issue, just be prepared that you have to buy your own gun enhancements etc.
Cavalier - This is a bit of a general issue for cavaliers, just make sure you have an option to move your mount in tight quarters and up and down unusual areas. A small cavalier will have an easier time because of the medium-size mount, but you should still consider an option to make sure your riding dog isn't stomped by, say, a ladder.
Classes that are particularly well suited to RotRL... Hm.
Witches and wizards are very well suited for this AP, many of the major encounters are with arcane spellcasters. There will be a fair few spellbooks.
There are some fairly major themes as far as enemies go, so a Ranger with the right favored enemies will be having a really good time. See the player's guide for more detail on favored enemies. Avoid Urban Ranger unless you really like the new class skills, this AP takes you all over Varisia.
My party found that having an Inquisitor was invaluable for learning the background story, the "going-on's" behind the scene. Immediate Action detect lies and Sense Motive checks through the roof are handy for picking up on things you might otherwise not have noticed.
Hmmm. All of them work fairly well, but some fit a little better thematically. Cavalier maybe isn't the best choice especially early on just because of some tighter dungeons/encounter areas.Have to disagree with you, Daethor. One, my wife plays a halfling cavalier in our own RotRL game and she has had little to no trouble with this.
Two, even if a player's PC is medium-sized with a Large-sized mount, there have been some items, spells and feats introduced in Ultimate Equipment, Animal Archive, Knights of the Inner Sea, etc. that have taken a lot of the difficulty out of playing such a character, regardless of enclosed nature of the setting.
Good points, Lamontius! I wasn't aware of those items/spells/feats. I'm going to have to look for those because I like the cavalier overall :) Thanks for the heads-up.
Dwarven superstitious barbarians, everyone.Please tell me this is a Warhammer Dwarf Slayer reference!
It's because at 17th level you would have +8 to save vs magic and another +3 if it's will based or fortitude based. At that level you really need to make your saves.
I'd say a wizard gets the most out of it. Max your Will save.
Superstitious is a trap, since you cant get boosted or healed in combat.
Ranger, Wizard, Cleric, and Bard or Barbarian will get you a helluva a lot of the roleplay fun.
Bards can get a REALLY nice goody in one of the books.
I'd say a wizard gets the most out of it. Max your Will save.
Superstitious is a trap, since you cant get boosted or healed in combat.
In the AP, this really doesn't matter. The playout of the fight doesn't change that fundamentally and the only times you really need a spell mid fight cast on you is if you were afflicted with something which in most cases won't happen if you have Superstitious.
As a Barbarian you can outfight most of what is encountered in the AP without in combat healing.
Also, if I remember correctly, you're one of those folks who really likes Channel Energy. Superstition doesn't force you to save against it.
Good points, Lamontius! I wasn't aware of those items/spells/feats. I'm going to have to look for those because I like the cavalier overall :) Thanks for the heads-up.Hmmm. All of them work fairly well, but some fit a little better thematically. Cavalier maybe isn't the best choice especially early on just because of some tighter dungeons/encounter areas.Have to disagree with you, Daethor. One, my wife plays a halfling cavalier in our own RotRL game and she has had little to no trouble with this.
Two, even if a player's PC is medium-sized with a Large-sized mount, there have been some items, spells and feats introduced in Ultimate Equipment, Animal Archive, Knights of the Inner Sea, etc. that have taken a lot of the difficulty out of playing such a character, regardless of enclosed nature of the setting.
No worries! Yeah, there's some good stuff to be found!
A few suggestions to start:
The Narrow Frame and Lithe Attacker animal feats from Animal Archive
The Carry Companion spell from Knights of the Inner Sea
The Hosteling Armor Enchantment from Ultimate Equipment
These are just a few off the top of my head, I'm sure I'm missing some. It's really only in playing for quite awhile alongside my wife's cavalier character that I've been able to learn from her discoveries on the class, so enjoy!
I'd say a wizard gets the most out of it. Max your Will save.
Superstitious is a trap, since you cant get boosted or healed in combat.
In the AP, this really doesn't matter. The playout of the fight doesn't change that fundamentally and the only times you really need a spell mid fight cast on you is if you were afflicted with something which in most cases won't happen if you have Superstitious.
As a Barbarian you can outfight most of what is encountered in the AP without in combat healing.
Also, if I remember correctly, you're one of those folks who really likes Channel Energy. Superstition doesn't force you to save against it.
We're 13th level now in that AP, and in our campaign, getting buff and healing spells on you during combat is critical. For example, the Bard has Mythic Haste, which is a HUGE buff. My Sorc has had to cast Fly on the tank several times so he can reach the BBEG. The Oracle has even cast Heal multiple times in one combat on the tank.
Mind you, since we have a 20 pt buy, 6 players and Mythic 1, the DM has boosted the Monsters some, and he uses excellent tactics.
But yes, I do like Channel, and yes, you are correct.
so, as the topic states. What are some of the better classes for the RotRL campaign?
We had some good characters in that AP, but the most effective one was our Kitsune Sorcerer (Fey). Whenever we encountered something she couldn't shut down with enchantments, she always had a dominated lackey or three to handle it.
Due to the preponderance of giants, Dwarves and Rangers make excellent options as well.
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This past week, my group finally ended this campaign. I adjusted the AP so that all the PCs would hit level 20 before facing off against Karzoug.
The odd thing about the group is that the only arcanist was a bard, and he was a replacement character around 15th level that came in after the player's original alchemist was shattered. Many times throughout the writing of the entire AP, you'll see things to the effect of "the PCs are likely to use magical means such as divination spells and teleportation to get to where their going or ascertain the information that they need". Not so much the case with my group unless they dumped significant party funds for magical items.
All that being said, no class is better suited for this AP than a wizard. The flavor is very rich for the class, as well as the rewards (the players arcane library at the end will be immense). If I hadn't have GMed the whole thing, I would have most definitely played an abjurer wizard hellbent on locking down sin magic.
Other classes that are great for this AP are the ranger (favored enemy for giants and everybody needs a wilderness guide), clerics (you'll understand why when playing The Skinsaw Murders), and bard (the AP focuses on history and lore to a great deal).
Happy Hunting.
This past week, my group finally ended this campaign. I adjusted the AP so that all the PCs would hit level 20 before facing off against Karzoug.
The odd thing about the group is that the only arcanist was a bard, and he was a replacement character around 15th level that came in after the player's original alchemist was shattered. Many times throughout the writing of the entire AP, you'll see things to the effect of "the PCs are likely to use magical means such as divination spells and teleportation to get to where their going or ascertain the information that they need". Not so much the case with my group unless they dumped significant party funds for magical items.
All that being said, no class is better suited for this AP than a wizard. The flavor is very rich for the class, as well as the rewards (the players arcane library at the end will be immense). If I hadn't have GMed the whole thing, I would have most definitely played an abjurer wizard hellbent on locking down sin magic.
Other classes that are great for this AP are the ranger (favored enemy for giants and everybody needs a wilderness guide), clerics (you'll understand why when playing The Skinsaw Murders), and bard (the AP focuses on history and lore to a great deal).
Happy Hunting.
The only reason why I personally wouldn't say a Wizard is because I hate pre-pared casters with a passion... if you enjoy playing Wizards and are good at it, this AP definitely has a lot of stuff in it for you.
We have actually banned both Paladins and Gunslingers from our running of ROTRL.
Just out of curiosity, why Paladins?
@Wiggz: What's your view of the Arcanist, then?
@Wiggz: What's your view of the Arcanist, then?
The Arcanist?
From the new classes in the playtest. It's sort of a mix of wizard and sorcerer where they have spellbooks, memorize several spells, and can cast any of the spells they'd memorized. So say you have five 1st level spells a day, and memorized Magic Missile, Sleep, and Mage Armor, you could cast any combination of those spells (or even nothing but Magic Missile) for those five castings.
From the new classes in the playtest. It's sort of a mix of wizard and sorcerer where they have spellbooks, memorize several spells, and can cast any of the spells they'd memorized. So say you have five 1st level spells a day, and memorized Magic Missile, Sleep, and Mage Armor, you could cast any combination of those spells (or even nothing but Magic Missile) for those five castings.
Ah - sorry, I haven't delved that deeply into the new 'advanced classes' just yet... I'm not sure I see a role of them to be honest... so I'm not really in a position to give you a fair opinion. I will say that tricks which give prepared casters a backdoor way into casting some spells spontaneously just seem to be missing the point to me. If getting ways to cast spontaneously makes your prepared caster better, why play a prepared caster?
I play a lot of Sorcerers, and generally my Sorcerer builds tend to be pretty tight within a particular theme by design... but one of the best pure casters I've ever played was a Human Sorcerer (Fey-Sylvan) who took the Eldritch Heritage feats for some of the Arcane Bloodline abilities and made use of the Human favored class option to assemble a truly huge 'known spells' list. Able to cast a wide variety of spells spontaneously and to meta-magic them spontaneously as well - after that any Wizard I tried to play just felt way too constraining. And that sentiment spilled over onto Clerics and Witches as well... which is a shame because there are definitely some aspects of those classes that I'd like to explore.
Basically think of it as a Sorcerer without bloodline abilities who can change the spells it knows each day rather than having the same spells every day.
Basically think of it as a Sorcerer without bloodline abilities who can change the spells it knows each day rather than having the same spells every day.
I could see some interest in that. Oftentimes the bloodline abilities help shape the character concept and give me something to build around thematically, but at the end of the day its spontaneous casting that appeals to me. What you describe would be interesting - in all honesty it sounds like what Wizards should have been originally been, and had they been we might never have seen Sorcerers at all.
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Story: The view is that they are too powerful, their saves are too good also. its not neccesarily a view I share but Im abiding by it.
LOL - so did you outlaw Wizards too? :-P
I've heard of banning Paladins due to alignment restrictions being imposed on the rest of the party but never due to being OP'ed, but hey - whatever one needs to do to make the story theirs. All that matters is that you guys are having fun.
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I also echo wizard. A thorough looter will probably have access to nearly the entire CRB wiz/sorc list.
I've seen druid be very successful in two seperate runs.
The group I'm currently running has an archer fighter and he's a beast.
Someone with really good Knowledge is a plus - there is a lot of backstory info.
You will want someone who can heal "status ailments." Expect to get poisoned, diseased, blinded, ability drained, and so forth.
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I feel like rogue and cavalier will be under utilized in this campaign if you choose to use them. Rogues are tricky because the rules for stealth are very misundersttod, clunky, and hard to use in my opinion. I also feel like the typical rogue skillset (stealth, bluff, escape artist, etc...) are not as useful as in other campaigns. Things that are more useful in this AP are the INT WIS and STR based skills. (knowledges, climb, swim, survival, perception)
Cavalier may be alright depending on how much content you add in, but for the most part the AP takes place indoors.
I feel like rogue and cavalier will be under utilized in this campaign if you choose to use them. ...
Cavalier may be alright depending on how much content you add in, but for the most part the AP takes place indoors.
This is less of a problem with the release of the Animal Archive - feats like narrow frame help the mount with squeezing, etc. I agree that a character that builds around charging on a mount will likely be a disappoint since it's hard to line up charges in a dungeon.
I joined RotRL at level 5 as a samurai and didn't have problems navigating my horse around the larger dungeons you see after book 2. Our party was comprised of a human samurai (mounted melee emphasis), goblin paladin (mounted ranged), human monk, human oracle of the heavens, and halfling witch (elemental patron). Around level 9 the oracle and witch were regularly airborne in combat and the three martial characters were extremely speedy on the ground. My samurai would usually charge into combat with a masterwork lance and switch to a keen katana to finish off foes. The paladin stayed at range and did considerable damage to evil foes and could quickly make it over to heal the samurai if necessary. The monk focused on defense and panther style, running around hoping enemies would waste an AoO on him so he could hit him back (most of the time enemies would ignore him once they realized he wasn't really a threat). Sometimes he'd roll well on a grapple check. The oracle had a nice mix of buffing, battlefield control, direct damage, and healing. The witch favored blasty spells but also had some nice debuffs, good mobility/utility spells, and a touch of healing.
tl;dr - the following party worked well for the reasons I spelled out above.
human samurai (mounted melee)
small paladin (mounted range)
human monk (mobile combat manuevers)
human oracle of the heavens (airborne divine support)
halfling witch (airborne arcane blasting/support)
If we were to do it again I'd replace the human monk with a human switch-hitting ranger with a mount he could ride into combat. Also, the good people of Sandpoint took a lot of convincing to allow a goblin hero into their midst so I'd have encouraged the player to build as a halfling (to be fair the ARG had just come out and we were all excited).
Rogues are tricky in Rise. There are a lot of large opponents. This means you have a lot of chances to fail acrobatics checks to not provoke on movement. Mine got one shotted on a crit from an aoo on one such occasion. From full HP to dead dead at level 9.
Rogues are tricky in Rise. There are a lot of large opponents. This means you have a lot of chances to fail acrobatics checks to not provoke on movement. Mine got one shotted on a crit from an aoo on one such occasion. From full HP to dead dead at level 9.
Yep. We had a rogue that kept dying. Started off as a male halfling (Whisperfoot), got reincarnated as a female halfling (Ladyfoot), and reincarnated again as a dhampir (Dhampirfoot) before dying again and not coming back. I would consider rogue an "expert" class for this AP since it takes a lot of saavy and more than a little luck to not get stomped on.
The party I listed above was the most successful and long lasting of the different configurations of PCs we had since things were always changing due to old players moving, getting jobs, etc. and new players coming in.
I joined the party midway through book 2, when we had a party that focused almost entirely on melee:
Dwarven inquisitor (melee)
Human barbarian (melee)
Halfling witch
Halfling rogue (melee)
Half-orc cleric (of Gorum, melee)
Half-elf druid (melee)
Human samurai (melee)
Battles in tight areas were mostly governed by individual PCs jostling for space more than anything the enemies did. I played the samurai and used a lot of polearms since my build was still effective with a reach weapon and this helped me avoid the square competition.
The dwarven inquisitor's player moved to CA and tried skype-ing in for a while but dropped pretty soon. The cleric of Gorum wasn't particularly well-built - the player had spent lavishly on CHA for channeling and his combat stats suffered as a result. The druid started off strong but found trouble keeping her AC scaling up by around level 7 or 8.
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Natural selection due to a number of character deaths over the course of book 3 brought in replacement PCs and the following party:
Halfling witch (survived)
Human samurai (survived)
Dhampir rogue (died x2, reincarnated from halfling)
Goblin paladin (ranged + mounted, replaced barbarian)
Human oracle (casting emphasis, replaced druid)
Aasimar sorcerer (blasty, replaced cleric of Gorum)
Here we went from having an almost entirely melee party to one with only a single melee specialist (Samurai) and another melee-er whose presence was getting increasingly tenuous (rogue). When there were plenty of other threats in the front-lines the rogue had fun as a skirmisher, flitting in and out using acrobatics for flanking sneak attacks. When it was just her and the samurai up front she got more attention than her staying power allowed for. The goblin paladin did damage in boatloads once the player figured out how all the rules for ranged and mounted combat fit together. The witch had really come into her own by lvl 8 or so with increasingly powerful spells and the oracle was an instant contributor with great buffing spells like Blessing of Fervor, Prayer, Bless along with some mystery specific debuffing (a better version of colorspray) and healing. The sorcerer might have been effective but the player was always distracted (but also a friend who brought snacks so we didn't make an issue of it).
When the players with the rogue and sorcerer left (too many campaigns, new job, respectively) we added another player who rolled spectacular stats and decided it was the perfect opportunity to build as a monk. He also decided to dip a level of cleric to get Enlarge Person a few times per day. And he built around Panther Style (if your movement provokes an AoO you can counter with your own AoO). The end result was a nigh-unkillable spectator to every battle. The samurai would often end encounters with single digit hp remaining, having protected the rest of the party and killed numerous enemies and the monk might be completely untouched, ignored, and having only done a couple dozen hp of damage himself.
It made for great roleplay (the samurai usually using his belt and an old plate to hold his entrails in until the oracle could heal him) but the monk's player didn't have a lot of fun in combat and would have preferred to rebuild his character.
Dwarven superstitious barbarians, everyone.
Heh, at first we were considering a four-man group consisting of three Dwarven Barbarians and a Dwarven Cleric. After playing through it, I'm kind of glad we didn't - we would have run through that campaign like a buzzsaw.
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When I played it, we had a wizard/rogue/arcane trickster. That worked pretty well to get the roguey stuff while also being able to tap into that sweet sweet wizard treasure.
Sure a pure wizard would have been stronger but this character was by no means weak.
Considering that an Arcane Trickster, if built on a R3/W3 platform, can achieve level 7 spells at the end? Not weak at all.
Aasimar 2-handed Paladin with Oath of Vengeance, so goooooooooooood.
Aasimar 2-handed Paladin with Oath of Vengeance, so goooooooooooood.
Tieflings actually make better Paladins than Aasimar due to their favored class option, but they can be hard to wedge into a RP situation.
Aasimar paladin with dragon knight template aiming for wings.