Has anyone thought of a way to make the "don't move, we've got five crossbows pointed at you" trope* work in Pathfinder/D&D. Like, past level 2nd?
*or any situations where the player usually just goes "pff, with the hp I have, I can afford the hit"?
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If you allow firearms, that will buy you a few more levels.
After that, you're going to have to fall back on "Halt or we let the Mage(s) cut loose".
The knight killer crossbow might help a bit.
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Well... Considering those crossbowmen are likely 2nd level warriors, (3rd level at best, it they are really good crossbowmen), it makes perfect sense that PC don't have to worry about it after 5~6th level.
That is a very low fantasy trope, that's why it only works on low level games.
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In my games I use a swarm template to represent roughly a platoon of men acting in unison, much like the troop templates rolling around the boards, though I make mine a little weaker, ranging from CR 5 for peasant riots, to 9 or so for mounted lancers. They give up weapon damage immunity and instead gain the base weapon die of the majority of users added to their swarm damage dice.
A swarm of marksmen shoot a volley that I treat as a reflex save for half damage.
For your particular tactic, you could have them ready an action, loose a volley, and then go right after as per the rules, loosing two volleys in a single round(you can say they do the 2 row shoot, drop and load while second row shoots tactic for crossbows, or for archers have them just reload and fire again).
It makes for a good CR 8 or so threat, and it is a good overall way to turn large numbers of organized minions into a problem that can challenge PCs in open combat but rarely have the means to chase them down if they turn tail and run away.
I have statted out some basic sample formation swarms, and hopefully you can enjoy making use of them:
http://www.freewebs.com/palatium/apps/forums/topics/show/8365105-formations -of-soldiers-as-organized-creature-units
If the crossbowmen all have sneak attack, and are within 30 ft of their targets of course, then some of them would be more deadly, assuming they won initiative.
If you ready an action, your initiative resets to just before the event that triggered the action. No double shots for you.
The answer to stronger PCs is just more crossbows. Throw in some difficult terrain and put the marksmen at 100 ft. It will take your PCs some time to cross that terrain.
Example:
16 Warrior 1 crossbowmen /w heavy crossbows. Feat is rapid-reload, and 14 dex. at 30 ft per round, in difficult terrain, it will take the PCs 4 rounds to get to the marksmen. Put the marksmen in a 100ft radius half-circle with the PCs in the middle. Thats 64 shots before they even get into melee.
If your bowmen start either hidden or in darkness, then they get to shoot at flat-footed AC for a little bit. Thats plenty of time to pick off a spell-caster or scout.
All this is about CR 7 or 8, so its a perfect mid-range encounter for a party of level 5 or 6 characters.
Last session our DM sent a party of goblins to ambush us at night with short-bows. They could see in the dark, and could use trees to hit and run. It was scary! Remember, if you have cover, you don't provoke for leaving a threated square.
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I would make it a reflex save for half damage, with the damage being 1d10 per crossbowman. The DC is 10 plus 2 per shooter, and it would only be possible within 30 feet.
I would tell my players this is because there are so many bolts being fired that there's not a conventional place to dodge. Rogues and others with evasion still get to do this, in fact, it rather helps to explain how they got this ability in the first place!
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I really hate the troop rules. If I am a dragon and those Crossbowmen need a 20 + 20 to hit me, then 10 of them suddenly doing 10d10 damage just because they are shooting together is stupid.
Real swarms contain thousands of creatures and do d6 damage. Not 1000d4. If you gather together 400 crossbowmen, then they can do d10 damage to the dragon.
I really hate the troop rules. If I am a dragon and those Crossbowmen need a 20 + 20 to hit me, then 10 of them suddenly doing 10d10 damage just because they are shooting together is stupid.
Real swarms contain thousands of creatures and do d6 damage. Not 1000d4. If you gather together 400 crossbowmen, then they can do d10 damage to the dragon.
They'd only need one twenty to hit. The second roll is only to confirm the crit. So they'd, on average, do 20d10 damage, actually making the troop do less damage.
I really need Rasputin Must Die! Too bad I'm broke.
I haven't seen the final rules, but what I saw from the blog I linked does make sense to me. Yes, you are talking about dozens of components to a swarm instead of thousands, but insect swarms contain creatures whose individual attacks are negligible. So, if a mosquito does 1d.0006 damage (rounding down, of course), then a swarm of a thousand would do 1d6. Anyway, my understanding of the rules isn't that the individual damage of everyone involved in the troop is combined, but that the troop does greater damage in a round than any one or two of them individually could do.
And, of course, the GM can adjust the troop damage and attack rolls to make it a reasonable threat to the PCs.
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Hm, gonna do some speculative encounter design for this FREEZECROSSBOWS idea...
Let's consider a 10th-level party. We'll aim for about a CR 13 encounter, then, since it's supposed to give the PCs pause. XP budget is therefore 25,600XP.
Also, we're assuming (for the sake of the trope) that all crossbowmen start by readying actions (which means a single shot on round 1).
Here's my first idea for a legitimately threatening FREEZECROSSBOWS encounter:
Lots of lower-level dudes, hoping that with a bazillion attacks, some will hit. So... sixteen 7th-level warriors? If they're humans, they've got 5 feats each. Point-blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (crossbow), Deadly Aim, Improved Critical.
Each crossbowman has 2,350gp for "weapons".
The readied bolt for each crossbowman will therefore have a single 1,800gp dose of Deathblade poison (DC 20, 1/rd for 6 rds, 1d3 CON, cure 2 saves). They've each got 550gp left. 480gp of that will get them three +2 bolts apiece, enough for the readied action and two more attacks. They're using mundane light crossbows, and any round 3 survivors have a supply of normal bolts.
The attack bonus for the sixteen crossbowmen, then, is +7 BAB, +3 DEX, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Point Blank, +2 enhancement, -2 Deadly Aim, for a total of +12 to hit (17-20/x2). Damage is 1d8+7 plus poison (DC 20, 1d3 CON, 6 rounds, cure 2 saves).
Either cleric or wizard first.
If we assume rolls ranging from 3 to 18 (total of 16 attacks), we're looking at attack totals ranging from 15 to 30, probably around 6 or so hits on a cleric (unless he's a tanky sort). That's 6d8+42 damage and six Fort saves. Each failed save is 1d3 CON (averaging 2 CON, for -10 HP) and +2 to the DC on further saves.
Basically, there's almost guaranteed one very dead PC, with the possibility of a second badly-poisoned PC.
@jiggy. That encounter works, but its sort-of meta-gamey. What realistic creature will spend 90% of his wealth on 1 vial of poison and the rest on three bullets...
Though now that I think about it, you need a point-man to threaten the PCs. So how about a mid range necromancer with a bunch of leveled skeleton champions wielding the crossbows?
well, both a troop and crossbowmen in a non-troop organization would do so little damage it would cease to matter when you account for the dragons DR.
to adress the OP though, you could pull the same thing with Finger of Death or a number of other spells to actually make them think twice about continuing their advance. If you don't do this you'll have to use magic somehow. Maybe Slaying Arrows keyed to Human or other common race type would do the trick, provided the attack bonus was high enough to give a good chance of a hit.
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@jiggy. That encounter works, but its sort-of meta-gamey. What realistic creature will spend 90% of his wealth on 1 vial of poison and the rest on three bullets...
What, your castle guards (or whoever) use their private budgets to select weaponry at their own discretion? Because mine would be issued limited quantities of standardized gear designed to help them do their primary job: drop an intruder fast.
Honestly, this is one of the least-metagamey encounters in the game. An organization that would employ a squad of 16 guards would have a goal, a budget, and a plan. They'd train the guards for their job, and issue just enough equipment to execute that plan efficiently. The GM needs to think like the guy who put together those ranks of guards, not like someone designing sixteen PCs.
Metagaming would be to make those crossbowman function more like private adventurers (spreading out their wealth, etc). Having them equipped like guards is the opposite of metagaming.
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In real life, characters would operate more like 1st edition characters where a volley of bolts could still take out an unprepared caster, even at 15+ levels. But unless you're going to afford a rule to the players about "getting the draw on an enemy," be cautious. For example, you could rule the aimed crossbows act as a coup de grace (auto hit and crit) without the death rule, but it comes back to bite you when the players want the same opportunity.
It should be enough to count the enemy's actions as some form of "readied" action to attack a flat-footed enemy, that their attacks would be against the flat-footed AC if the chosen foe tried to initiate any aggressive action (start something that requires an initiative roll).
As far as flavor, there's threads on the abstract nature of hit points, and it's not so much the players would be taking "hits" and surviving, they're avoiding the ultimate lethal blow with some level of exhaustion represented by those hit points. It may be they do what would be impossible to a low level character and duck, dodge, and deflect off equipment the attacks to no real harm.
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Hm, gonna do some speculative encounter design for this FREEZECROSSBOWS idea...
Let's consider a 10th-level party. We'll aim for about a CR 13 encounter, then, since it's supposed to give the PCs pause. XP budget is therefore 25,600XP.
Also, we're assuming (for the sake of the trope) that all crossbowmen start by readying actions (which means a single shot on round 1).
Here's my first idea for a legitimately threatening FREEZECROSSBOWS encounter:
** spoiler omitted **
A leader who could hit with a first ranged attack and instead of weapon focus for the followers give them all target of opportunity since they are at +7 BAB.
Another thing is to add to the threat, and especially what it represents.
In the first, six Lvl. 3 Warriors aren't a real bad threat to a Lvl. 10 party. But backing up a trio of Lvl. 9 Fighters? Significantly more so.
In the second case, the crossbowmen may represent a much more formidable force, like the troops of a kingdom. Sure you can beat them easily, but that would mean the whole kingdom would consider the party hostile.
Or, make the crossbowmen a Troop.
ooooh, this is nifty! And it makes the mob of orcs a threat long after a bunch of CR1 creatures is not anymore!
But this does not really solve the issue that is at hand: When the PC are faced with a threat that they know will not significantly deplete their pool of hit points, they can easily ignore the threat, even though that threat is one that none would sensibly ignore that blatantly in other media (literature, TV shows, movies and to some extent, board games and other RPGs).
This applies to the en-joue crossbowman trope, but also with a Mexican stand-off situation, jumping down 40 ft, standing outside in bitter cold, wade across lava etc.
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I know what you're thinking, punk. You're thinking "This is just a crossbow, sure I can take that damage!" Now to tell you the truth I don't know how powerful you are. But being this is a MagBow, the most powerful crossbow in the world and will blow right through you defensive magics, you've gotta ask yourself a question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?
Its tough at higher levels with mundane guards.
You have to think of the transference here... by which I mean, this group can likely take down a full-grown dragon. Would a dragon stop when 5 crossbowmen and a guard captain threatened it like this? Would it care?
Probably not... and since the group can easily be far more powerful than a single dragon, they probably won't care either. Threatening civilians, OTOH can work wonders on a good-aligned group. Just like in the real world, good guys hesitate when innocent lives are at immediate risk.
Even in medieval times there were grades of crossbow more dangerous than a heavy crossbow.
Your standard heavy crossbow requires a goat's foot lever, or at the very least a stirrup and belt claw thing (I don't recall the technical term).
Beyond that you get the cranequin and arbalest -- both which have horrible reload rates, but should do considerable damage.
I'm actually not sure what differentiates them from one another. But the cranequin has a mechanical ratchet and rotary drum on the top. I imagine an arbalest has the big rope windlass.
CJ
Your problem is that a tenth level party would eat the hits? That is a stupid party. My DM would have the problem of one of the casters readying to cast a Wind Wall as soon as anyone shoots. Or if noone has that prepared, a readied Fireball in the middle of the guards can end that threath right quick.
I'm not sure why you think a bunch of superheroes should be afraaid of a few crossbows.
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I think the easiest way to make that trope work, would be to make sure the players understand HP as Gygax originally imagined it - not actual health, but more like Plot Armour. So when the situation comes up and they don't back down, you don't use the normal rules for damage - roll to hit, but make them deal a lot more damage than normal.
Yeah...that totally worked in the Good Olde Days.
Now as soon as you whip out something that isn't backed and supported by five overlapping layers of rules your players freak out.
When I GM I generally have a table of pretty mature and experience role-players and I still get the fish eye when I pull some of my First Edition tricks.
*sigh*
I sometimes miss the less structured days of old.
CJ
That threat still works because...
Everyone knows that the local lord is just the kind of doush to give his gate gaurds arrows of slaying.
Dropping the portcolus traps the party and the arrows are just to keep you bizzy while they get the boiling oil/acid/wasp nests ready.
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I'm not sure why you think a bunch of superheroes should be afraid of a few crossbows.
Because they are not superheroes; they are a bunch of adventurers. If I wanted to play super heroes, I'd play a X-men game or something of the sort.
I know about the Alexandrian article. 10th level characters can withstand more than ordinary people. And I know; dragons...
Instead, I want to play cinematic hero. One that can dodge 15 crossbow bolts in a fight (read: they have enough hp not to be killed by 15 hits), but not one that says "sure shoot me, I can take 15 like that!". I want to play the hero that will survive the 40ft fall after being tackled by an orc, but not one that that looks down a 40ft cliff thinking "I'll just jump down; easier than stairs".
It's a matter of style not matching mechanics (or rather mechanics not representing a style). Sometimes I wish I could create a threat without pulling out the nukes...
I think the easiest way to make that trope work, would be to make sure the players understand HP as Gygax originally imagined it - not actual health, but more like Plot Armour. So when the situation comes up and they don't back down, you don't use the normal rules for damage - roll to hit, but make them deal a lot more damage than normal.
Good post.
I think what I need to do is to somewhat codify when a situation does not qualify hp as plot armour, and make it clear to players.
This way, I might find a way to allow my player to make another misrepresented trope in D&D: the "I sneak behind him and break his neck" trope. Right now its more like "I sneak behind his back, deal 6d6+4 point of damage, and then run because he's still quite capable to kick my ass"...
Rollplaying it?
If I try to stage such a situation, I would take care that the players don't see the crossbowmen as "XP-Buddies with no arms" but as real persons.
Let them have a drink with them before in a tavern (off-duty guards inviting the towns hero), let them be "only watchmen who do their job" and if nothing work, show them after they killed them how the town burries their "heros" who were killed only because "they doing their job" (widows and childs help a lot here^^)
'findel, you should look up the Bushwhacking rules from Green Ronin's Advanced Game Master's Guide.
Ok, you got me intrigued...
*off to the internetz*
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So Fort save to effectively disable your opponent. This is similar to what Evil Lincoln proposed on page 1. I might go that route...
'findel, you should look up the Bushwhacking rules from Green Ronin's Advanced Game Master's Guide.Ok, you got me intrigued...
*off to the internetz*
[edit]
So Fort save to effectively disable your opponent. This is similar to what Evil Lincoln proposed on page 1. I might go that route...
Do remember that my suggestion is through the lens of Strain-Injury of course. :) Otherwise it is rather silly, isn't it?
I say let the PCs make their choices, and if those choices included whacking the guardsmen that are just trying to maintain law and order in the community, then let them. But make sure there are consequences.
-Shopkeepers and city officials wouldn't be too eager to do business with the murders of their friends/cousins/brother-in-laws in the squad they just wiped out. Prices go up, things aren't available, service becomes non-existent. Subtle civil disobedience sort of things.
-Most law enforcement agencies have special tactics/heavy weapons specialists on staff for dealing with extraordinary threats that standard trained officers cannot deal with. Have a Pathfinder equivalent. See how the party likes it when the town "SWAT" team shows up while they finish mopping up the low-level guardsmen who called for back-up, armed for owlbear and looking to kick their butts for wanton murder of their fellow lawmen.
-If this becomes an ongoing problem, then they paint a big target on their heads, making them in to the types of villains that OTHER adventuring parties would want to defeat. They should begin being harassed constantly by the new kids on the block trying to take them down, perhaps at the most inopportune time. They are in the midst of a carefully planned infiltration of a secret den of the BBEG? Enter the New Hero Troop to take them in to face justice!
Just a few ideas to have the threat of action by low-level guards still make the party stop and take notice. You just have to move past motivating them with hit point damage and find something else that hurts.
I say let the PCs make their choices, and if those choices included whacking the guardsmen that are just trying to maintain law and order in the community, then let them. But make sure there are consequences.
The problem isn't about whether they should or not.
The problem is about the fact that mechanically speaking, the players can ignore the threat because their character can easily take the damage. Same goes when the characters are confronted to jumping down 40 ft., or wading through 20 ft of lava.
I understand that. The problem is, we are trying to make them react to the stick, when we should be using a cattle prod. It leaves no welt (I think, never actually been hit with one) but would sting a lot more then a smack with a branch. Is they are looking at the scenario in a mechanical fashion (I can take the crossbow hit no problem, so I ignore the guard and keep walking.), then you need to make them look at it from another angle. (That man just took a crossbow hit to the chest and kept walking! I think he's a zombie! Get my torch and pitchfork, Mildred!) If they don't react the way you wish them to, change the parameters of the situation until they have to react to it in a more realistic fashion.
For example, in my current campaign, the party was running around the sewers looking for slavers. They tracked them back to their lair, promptly did what any good adventurer would do and assaulted the base to free the slaves. I had warned them that this would be a city-based campaign and I would expect the rule of law to be followed, with consequences if it wasn't. They invaded what turned out to be a warehouse and promptly began beating the guards soundly. One guard ran into the street, was pursued and subdued, then the PC waited for the guard to arrive and proclaim them heroes. Instead, they were arrested for assault, break and enter and attempted theft. If they had bothered to check into the laws of the city, they would have discovered that possession of slaves was legal, merely the TAKING of slaves wasn't. And since these particular slaves could all be proven to be taken "legally" in other areas (mainly purchased prisoners from another city), the PCs were the ones breaking the law. After spending the night in jail and being bailed out by the knight's commander (who gave them a thorough tongue-lashing), they took much greater care in the future about how they acted within city limits.
For the lava scenario, I would rule that since they voluntarily are exposing themselves to the lava, they are forgoing any protective measures and thus automatically take full damage, no save. And when they shrugged and grin because "they have the Hit Points", I would calmly tell them same goes for all their items as well. They may come out the other side alive, but they very well might do it naked as well.
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I don't see the point of this thread, really... What's wrong with high level characters being able to ignore low-level threats? Isn't that the whole point of leveling up? Getting stronger than you were before.
It's kinda like someone asking how to get a bunch of thugs with common weapons to be a threat to The Incredible Hulk.
It's not a threat. It ain't supposed to be.
I don't see the point of this thread, really... What's wrong with high level characters being able to ignore low-level threats? Isn't that the whole point of leveling up? Getting stronger than you were before.
It's kinda like someone asking how to get a bunch of thugs with common weapons to be a threat to The Incredible Hulk.
It's not a threat. It ain't supposed to be.
Yes, that is correct. Mechanically, they aren't a threat. And that is the problem we are trying to solve.
After all, to use a RW example, just because you are a master martial artist and a trained marksmen doesn't mean you ignore the cop trying to pull you over for speeding. What we are trying to work out are ways that the PCs can be brought to see that even though mechanically they can do something it doesn't mean that they should do it.