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Hello everyone
I've been searching for threads on this issue, but most deal with the players, BBEGs, and mechanical effects.
What I want to know is that, how does the access to Raise dead magic affect society? Are Nobles and other with high wealth almost immune to violent or accidental death?
Any party is familiar with ways to prevent Raise Dead from being effective (on the BBEG). That's what the rest eternal spell is used for, but simply burning the body will work as well. As will hiding it for three weeks (since at that point you need CL 21 for raise dead to be effective.
A bigger question, though,.... does the family want to revive this person? I'm sure that Vicount St. George wants eventually to ascend to his father's title of Duke of Denver, and when His Grace dies, Lord St. George will be the one footing the bill for the spell.
Hmm. Pay 5000 gp to not inherit the title and lands, or simply leave well enough alone?
Must ponder this one deeply.....
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I think there are several things that need to be considered.
First, Raise Dead is a cleric spell, so most of the time (depending on your game world of course) it requires a Diety to fuel. So even if you have casters who can technically cast it, will the cleric's god allow that individual to be raised? For example, will the CG cleric be able to raise the NE Tyrant Noble? Odds are probably not, and people are going to know that, that only those truly blessed can benefit from the magic.
Secondly, Raise Dead only works on those who want to be raised. You take the instance of the Noble's child who dies due to fever (though why they didn't have remove disease on hand is the better question), will that child want to leave the grace of the heavens to return to earth? Maybe, maybe not. Same goes for the hero who sacrifices himself to save others, s/he may feel they've done enough good and can finally get the rest and reward they're entitled to.
Lastly, remember Raise Dead doesn't work on people who've died of old age, or Undead. So if you're concerned about the wealthy avoiding violent death via magic, remember that many undead come about due to violent ends. If that noble dies and comes back as a Wight or Wraith, well then he's out of luck when it comes to Raise Dead.
Ultimately it depends on the vision you have for your game world. Just because it could work a certain way as written doesn't mean that is how it will work. So do what you think is fun, and create a world for your friends to play in.
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"In addition, the subject's soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject's soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw"
I think "free" is a big part of it. If a person's soul is in one of the evil aligned planes I would argue that their soul is probably not free. It is probably in the possession of an evil outsider for one purpose or another, transforming into a devil or demon, eating it, currency, tapped by their own sin and evil deeds and well on its way to being transformed into an evil outsider or undead on its own accord, etc.
Also you have to consider "willing". Is a good soul really going to want to leave one of the good aligned planes and return to a troubled matrial plane full of hardship and suffering when they now exist on a plane that is literally the world they have probably always wanted for themselves.
Consider also that there all sorts of reasons people left behind in the land of the living would not want to raise a dead person either. Many of them outlined above.
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While people don't where giant flashing alignment signs, I think reputation will go a long way. And in the end, being a divine spell, you can assume the Diety in question will know and react accordingly.
As for the Evil churches, you have to ask yourself the same question. Does that God want that person on the world walking around, or do they want them in the afterlife. While the High Priest may be short sighted enough to see the money and potential future favors, Asmodeus himself is probably weighing the value of that soul in the short term versus it's use to him in the afterlife.
While you can definitely assume that nobles have a "living will" type situation in place in case they pass on, I think all the points that have been brought up are valid when you look at "how has society adapted?" I feel that Raise Dead is probably still rare, and it's not rare based on the monetary cost or the frequency of high level characters, but rare based on whether the spell would even work. We tend to gloss over a lot of setting fluff, because we're normally concerned with the mechanics of a particular situation. When we want to look at how the setting is impacted though, we need to remember all the little bits of background that go into how those mechanics have been framed.
Again though, that's fluff, so if you want a world to react and behave a certain way, go for it. I know lots of GMs who ban raise dead in home games, to create that sense that death is final. On the other hand, there are plenty who go the other direction, and the world is more like playing Final Fantasy where you just need to stop off and pick up a Phoenix Down, lol. It all depends on what you want to do.
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Still, it got me thinking about that society. If i was a noble there I would surely have a raise dead life insurance, probably prepaid to an acceptable church in cause of untimely death.
"My lord, we are here from the temple of Sarenrae, to resurrect your late father."
"Thank you, that won't be necessary. And the title is `your grace,' if you don't mind.""I beg your pardon, your grace?"
"I said, `That won't be necessary.'"
"I'm afraid, my lord, that your father left strict instructions that we were to raise him in the event of his untimely death."
"That won't be necessary. I am countermanding those orders."
"You can't do that, my lord."
"I just did."
"But,... you don't have the authority?"
"I don't? Who's the duke? Who's the head of the Wimsey family?"
"Well, you are, but...."
"Thank you very much for your concern."
"You don't understand, my lord. I must cast this spell."
"All right, cast it."
"You misunderstand me. I need the body to cast it on."
"I don't think I misunderstood anything. Was there anything else we needed to discuss before you left?"
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"All right Pathfinders, our old Ally, Lord Wimsey, has recently passed. He left strict instructions with the temple of Sarenrae to resurect him, but for some reason they are being denied access to the body. We need you to investigate the estate, find the body, and recover it for our allies in the temple. The Wimsey family itself is quite well connected, and we want to maintain our ties with the former lord."
A great use of the "recover body" prestige reward
;)
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"All right Pathfinders, our old Ally, Lord Wimsey, has recently passed. He left strict instructions with the temple of Sarenrae to resurect him, but for some reason they are being denied access to the body. We need you to investigate the estate, find the body, and recover it for our allies in the temple. The Wimsey family itself is quite well connected, and we want to maintain our ties with the former lord."
A great use of the "recover body" prestige reward
Awesome adventure hook. I may use it sometime.
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I should totally write something up and submit it lol.
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Well, in Golarion raise dead only works if the recipient'a soul hasn't been judged by Pharasma yet. If you want an NPC to stay dead in spite of the resources to be revived, just have it be said that Pharasma has judged them already. I believe that she doesn't go through the line in chronological order, but rather determines whose time is up and who still has a role to play in the world. Excellent in world justification for a game problem IMO.
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Raise Dead is far less of a problem than Resurrection. It would be a simple matter to say that a person is not legally dead until it is no longer possible for the highest level available cleric to raise them -- but bringing back somebody a century later would be a different matter altogether. If the two spells are distinguished in that way, then the Raise Dead spell would be the legal equivalent of bringing a comatose king out of his coma.
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<Ring, ring, ring>
"Hello?"
"Yes, this is the Pharasma Dept. of Resurrections. Do we have the honor of speaking with Lord Ubersauce the Heroic?"
"Wut?"
"You are Lord Ubersauce the Heroic, correct?"
"Um, yes, that is I, though technically I was only known as 'Lord Ubersauce'. What is this about? I've been gone 1000 years..."
"About that sir. It appears 'The Coven of 100', using a somewhat odd loophole, have managed to increase the power of one of their casters to the point where the True Resurrection she just cast allowed her to name you as the recipient. Apparently, in the last 1000 years you've earned the honorific of 'the Heroic'."
"Impressive. Well, I suppose I wouldn't mind paying Golarion another visit. I wonder how much things have changed, not to mention, who are these people? My curiousity is piqued. So, what do I do next?"
"We need absolute confirmation, sir. Do you accept the resurrection?"
"Sure, what the hell..."
"Pardon?"
"I mean 'yes', I accept the Resurrection"
"Excellent, please step into the large lighted doorway that will appear momentarily beside you. And, you may hang up now."
"Well, thank you very much. I'm looking forward to another go at enslaving the planet..."
"Enjoy your stay on Golarion, sir."
<click>
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"All right Pathfinders, our old Ally, Lord Wimsey, has recently passed. He left strict instructions with the temple of Sarenrae to resurect him, but for some reason they are being denied access to the body. We need you to investigate the estate, find the body, and recover it for our allies in the temple. The Wimsey family itself is quite well connected, and we want to maintain our ties with the former lord."
A great use of the "recover body" prestige reward
;)
Which is likely why the new Lord Wimsey had his father's body cremated as early as possible.
Actually, cremation should have a far wider use in Golarion and other similar settings where it prevents both Raise Dead and rising as an undead (at least the most frequent ones).
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"All right Pathfinders, our old Ally, Lord Wimsey, has recently passed. He left strict instructions with the temple of Sarenrae to resurect him, but for some reason they are being denied access to the body. We need you to investigate the estate, find the body, and recover it for our allies in the temple. The Wimsey family itself is quite well connected, and we want to maintain our ties with the former lord."
A great use of the "recover body" prestige reward
;)
Which is likely why the new Lord Wimsey had his father's body cremated as early as possible.
Actually, cremation should have a far wider use in Golarion and other similar settings where it prevents both Raise Dead and rising as an undead (at least the most frequent ones).
Or conversely, many societies may frown on cremation, because they consider it the same as saying "Good, I am glad you are dead, and I don't want to you come back."
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I would go with the rule that Breath of Life (including any other effects that call into question whether the deceased was ever actually dead) and Raise Dead are the only legal ways to bring somebody back from the dead without them losing their previous property and titles. If somebody is brought back by Reincarnate, Resurrection, or other magic, they are treated as a new person in service to their heirs, whoever they may be.
So, for example, if the king is killed by violence in a world where the highest level caster is 20th level, his body is held for a possible Raise Dead spell. If nobody is willing or able to raise him in that time, he is declared legally dead after 3 weeks, at which time his successor formally takes over. Note that it is not good for the heir's reputation to actively interfere with any attempts to cast Raise Dead on his predecessor.
Now let's say that the king is reincarnated (and thus possibly no longer of his original race) or resurrected years later. These forms of revival would render the king unable to rule (and in the latter case he would have been legally dead for some time anyway). In that case, the revived king would legally be a vassal and advisor to the current king, and it would be up to the current king to decide whether to give him a place in the order of succession.
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I would go with the rule that Breath of Life (including any other effects that call into question whether the deceased was ever actually dead) and Raise Dead are the only legal ways to bring somebody back from the dead without them losing their previous property and titles. If somebody is brought back by Reincarnate, Resurrection, or other magic, they are treated as a new person in service to their heirs, whoever they may be.
So, for example, if the king is killed by violence in a world where the highest level caster is 20th level, his body is held for a possible Raise Dead spell. If nobody is willing or able to raise him in that time, he is declared legally dead after 3 weeks, at which time his successor formally takes over. Note that it is not good for the heir's reputation to actively interfere with any attempts to cast Raise Dead on his predecessor.
Now let's say that the king is reincarnated (and thus possibly no longer of his original race) or resurrected years later. These forms of revival would render the king unable to rule (and in the latter case he would have been legally dead for some time anyway). In that case, the revived king would legally be a vassal and advisor to the current king, and it would be up to the current king to decide whether to give him a place in the order of succession.
Actually this brings up a really cool solution to the Broken Line problem.
The King and all his heirs are dead. The Noble Houses are in a huge cluster rage over who becomes the next King. The Old High Priest who had been friends with the King before this one knew him to be a good and just man and resurrections him to take back over for awhile till they can sort out the heir business.
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I remember some games setting did address this and essentially came down that speak with dead is not proof of anything when it comes to the law. Considering how many ways people can manipulate things with magic...people still wanted actual proof.
But well funny enough, in the jade regent ap, a ninja clan is very popular because they encourage their caster members to learn how to use speak with the dead so they can extract information from their dead enemies/opposite ninja clans.
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I remember some games setting did address this and essentially came down that speak with dead is not proof of anything when it comes to the law. Considering how many ways people can manipulate things with magic...people still wanted actual proof.
But well funny enough, in the jade regent ap, a ninja clan is very popular because they encourage their caster members to learn how to use speak with the dead so they can extract information from their dead enemies/opposite ninja clans.
Rules of evidence are funny things. By design.
If I tell the cops that my neighbor told me he was a car thief, that's evidence of nothing. Hearsay. But the cops could still use that as a reason to start investigating him.
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I think it would be pretty negligible in terms of impact. Like IRL we have medical procedures that can resuscitate a person who is nearly dead / mostly dead, I think that is the closest analogue.
Like others have noted, it's an expensive spell and doesn't even work a lot of the time. Teleport would be more disruptive magic-as-technology than Raise Dead.
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5000 gp is a lot of money. For the PC's it is not always so much, but for NPC's it is very hard to come by. Then you need to have a cleric cast the spell, and have the soul agree to come back. I would think the lure of what passes for heaven may make most people want to stay there.
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A a GM, I have always ruled that a character has a maximum lifespan.
Once that tine expires, the character dies. Nothing can bring the character back, ever. The same holds true if a player is attempting to gain immortality through Magic Jar or something. When the character's time runs out, that's it.
I think this rule might have been explicit in AD&D.
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Well, that's your house rule, but the reincarnate spell explicitly contradicts this.
"The spell can bring back a creature that has died of old age."
A combination of reincarnate and miracle can keep a character going forever.
Well, that's your house rule, but the reincarnate spell explicitly contradicts this.
"The spell can bring back a creature that has died of old age."
A combination of reincarnate and miracle can keep a character going forever.
Definitely my preferred method of eternal life for my characters (since even immortality arcane discovery takes up resources that could be better allocated).
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I think it would be pretty negligible in terms of impact. Like IRL we have medical procedures that can resuscitate a person who is nearly dead / mostly dead, I think that is the closest analogue.
Well, resurrection works on someone who's been dead for decades. Even the Mayo clinic can't dig up Nicholas II of Russia and resuscitate him.
I could see some interesting political fallout if someone tried to restore a 100-year dead dynasty. There's still an active royalist party in Albania, trying to put King Zog's grandson back on the throne. I'm sure there are anti-Putin groups back who would love to see the restoration of the House of Romanov.
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Bringing someone back to life...
"Ma'am, please answer for the court... Is the defendant the man who murdered you?"
"Yes, Prosecutor."
"And how did he kill you?"
"He used magic to extend my life while carving out my internal organs."
"Ma'am, could you describe for us what you felt?"
Yeah. Nothing like testifying at the trial of your own murder while alive.
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Bringing someone back to life...
"Ma'am, please answer for the court... Is the defendant the man who murdered you?"
"Objection! My lord, it's clearly impossible for someone to testify directly about the nature of their own death. The magic necessary to restore someone to life inevitably renders their testimony unreliable!"
"Best evidence rule, my lord. Besides, that goes to weight, not to admissibility."
"Hmm. Those are all good points, counsellors. Let's discuss it in my chambers. Court is now recessed."
Now I am just imagining a Law and Order type series of short stories sets in in Golarion...
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In my games I have the following:
- all forms of coming back to life does exist
- very few people want to come back (mainly hero's)
- marriage, titles, inheritance and positions of power are death till us part (as none of these can affect a soul in the afterlife)
- oaths of service to a higher power is usually beyond death till us part such as clerics, paladins, deity worshiped and such (as these do affect ones stay in the afterlife)
With the repercussions of coming back from the dead, and clerics (or anyone able to ask higher powers questions) can tell when someone has been brought back or when they have died.
This adds amusement to games where they have created a will for their character to make sure the holdings are "kept in the family".
But on the serious side, it fits in with a setting where raising the dead is possible, but not common.
Even breath of life triggers the "I have died" clause of these rules, and in my game generates a new ID for the hero in question so I can keep track of how many lives a player has gone through in a campaign (new characters are treated the same as characters who have died for the purpose of id tracking).
This also stops the "it's just death" approach I have faced with players and temporarily loosing their character.
In some games, I have also imposed a geas/quest on any character that is not of the same alignment as the god which is bringing them back to life where they have to further the cause of that god in the next 12 months (a specific quest)
This also helps people decide that it might be better to stay dead, or inspire them to be more heroic (and careful) in this next life.
On the plus side, very few of my players want to risk death for their characters now that they have holdings to loose....
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I remember some games setting did address this and essentially came down that speak with dead is not proof of anything when it comes to the law. Considering how many ways people can manipulate things with magic...people still wanted actual proof.
But well funny enough, in the jade regent ap, a ninja clan is very popular because they encourage their caster members to learn how to use speak with the dead so they can extract information from their dead enemies/opposite ninja clans.
Rules of evidence are funny things. By design.
If I tell the cops that my neighbor told me he was a car thief, that's evidence of nothing. Hearsay. But the cops could still use that as a reason to start investigating him.
Meh, torture is also an unreliable source of information. I mean, they will tell you something, anything, to get you to stop, but you gave them little reason to actually tell you the truth.
But I would not be surprised when I hear of torture by ninjas. It is still a half decent lead, and espionage always involves risks. But the legal system shouldn't, at least when it comes to the possibility of finding an innocent man guilty.
Death is a strange thing in fantasy realms where resurection is possible, even common.
I generally put a pertty simple rule on the effect.
The dead just might not actually want to live. Death is a final release, however suddent or unjust it was. Even the great hero might, upon his dramatic death, want to stay in heaven rather than go back to a life of trials, and the gods will probably respect his wishes too unless its someone who is supposed to save the world.
Many fluff texts assume that life after death is not fully understood, not even by the dead individual, the CE murderer who went to hell but got raised might decline the revival simply for some strange feeling that he SHOULD be in hell.
This is why I don't use Raise/Resurrection spells in my games. They just don't exist. On the rare occasion I have gods in my world, you have to go on a major quest to get someone back from the dead. The other 99% of the time, dead is dead.
What if the ghost haunts you because you refuse to have them resurrected? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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Resurrection to be fair is really not that common. Not many people can actually afford these kind of services. Unless all your npc are rolling in money, Resurrection only seems common because you are dealing with pc easily among the richest kids on the block. I mean just looking at npc wealth in general, they have way less than what a pc get. Some npc are extraordinarily wealthy but it's pretty rare.
Of course there are the occasional free Resurrection from outsiders and various forces who want someone to succeed at their mission but it rarely happens.
Resurrection to be fair is really not that common. Not many people can actually afford these kind of services. Unless all your npc are rolling in money, Resurrection only seems common because you are dealing with pc easily among the richest kids on the block. I mean just looking at npc wealth in general, they have way less than what a pc get. Some npc are extraordinarily wealthy but it's pretty rare.
Of course there are the occasional free Resurrection from outsiders and various forces who want someone to succeed at their mission but it rarely happens.
This is pretty much why, though its also worth mentioning that good portion of the population is probably going to be perfectly happy with their afterlife (though PF has a crapsack afterlife, never go there) and refuse the raise dead or resurrection (unless they know whats in store for them) if they don't have some major driving goal that would bring them back (which is why so many PCs would in fact come back).
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Laying aside that the cost is extremely prohibitive for the overwhelming majority of the population (especially for something that may not work), my feeling is that in most cases people don't want to come back or can't come back. Evil beings may be shackled to their afterlife, while goodly beings have all that was ever promised to them for a life of goodly action. Why would you leave paradise without an extremely compelling reason?
There are probably cases where an extremely powerful noble, merchant, or spellcaster is able to arrange for a slain loved one to be revived, but these are the exception rather than the rule. On the whole though I tend to leave these sorts of spells in the realm of powerful PCs and NPCs who may have duties and desires in the material plane that outweigh their reward in the afterlife.
A goodly king who's kingdom is about to collapse because of his death might return. A hero cut down in the middle of a quest to stop a great evil might return. The average person content in their life with no great duty lain upon them is probably just as happy to remain in the afterlife.
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I think most people will assume that once a person dies he went on to his final reward/punishment, while it is possible to get have the Gods give a person another chance at great sacrifice/expense few people would go against the natural order unless there is a very good reason for it.
What happens if a person got raised and fails to live up to divine expectations given another chance?
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Getting resurrected is probably a great way to become that nail that sticks way out, in a world full of thousands of giant hammers.
I figure that if you're gonna get resurrected, you'd better be ready to handle some special attention from some of the hordes of powerful and often not at all benevolent creatures out there who take a keen interest in life, death, or the fate of souls.
An adventurer probably has a fighting shot to deal with that stuff. Some random NPC, when a demon decides to hitchhike their resurrection back from the afterlife and try to possess the living, or a mi-go comes to flense off your soul's protective meatsuit so that it can dissect it and figure out just what was so special about this soul that Sarenrae sent it back...