Last year I started a campaign using Pathfinder. I'd both played in and run games with the 3.5 rules set extensively, so I thought I could treat Pathfinder as the same game.
I was in for a rude awakening.
Pathfinder, I realized, is a lot less forgiving to a generous GM, who doesn't mind giving characters higher bonuses and extra feats (as I had been, during my 3.5 days).
I was surprised by more powerful feats, and easier access to "use stat X for Y" traits. I conceded defeat when a Monk (a Martial Artist, no less) ran roughshod over what I'd thought was a very dangerous encounter.
I then joined another Pathfinder game a friend was running, to see how he handled the problems I'd encountered. Right off the bat, he insisted on point-buy. I discovered that characters in Pathfinder can be very effective with a 20 point-buy, but are also very specialized.
A character could be incredibly effective in an encounter, only to be marginalized in another, and rendered completely useless in a third.
Part of this, I feel, had to do with the inability to have good tertiary attributes. Our Fighter, for example, had 16 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 13 Int, 10 Wis, and 10 Cha. A worthy stat spread for combat, but not much else.
The game is predicated on a group of specialists, each contributing uniquely, but in actual play, it's hard when all your eggs are in one basket, as it were.
I'm about to start a new game, and I'm wrestling with how to generate characters. Die-rolling is heavily favored by my old gaming groups, and it does have the potential for more well-rounded characters...but by the same token, it can create lackluster characters, as well as imbalance among the party.
Point-buy is an elegant solution, but it leads to very specialized characters with nearly ludicrous weak points. My desire for more diversity originally led me to think "well, I could just use higher point-buy, like 25 or 30", but then I reflected on what my fellow players had done with their 20 points.
Wizards with 7 Strength and 20 Int, Clerics with 20 Wis and 7 Int...I don't mind people having strong suits, but obviously no one was concerned about over-specialization. And if I give people more points, they'd probably just have higher secondary stats. Instead of a 16 Dex on a Wizard, maybe they'd have an 18? Instead of a 12 Con, maybe a 14?
Which brings me to the forums, wondering if other people have tackled the problem of stat diversity, or if I should just give up and love the min/max.
Thanks in advance for replies!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I love Stat Arrays. I also don't mind having good stats in everything as it encourages folks to try things they're not fantastic at. It also brings the more MAD classes up to par.
16 16 14 14 12 12 offers some extra goodness.
For a Fighter this translates to
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 12
So hes less shafted by Will Saves, and has an extra skill. And if he likes he can drop another point into Int for Combat Maneuvers. And this is trying to eke out the most power from the array. He might try Diplomacy or aid anothering on it at some points too.
16 16 14 14 12 12
This is a very high point buy array, I'd love that for any character.
Personally I've felt that having a 20 in a starting stat in a point buy to be fairly crippling.
If you don't like it, set a floor of 8 instead of 7 and/or only allow 1 stat below 10. I think you'll find most people wouldn't complain with those restrictions.
Of my 3 PFS characters none will have an 18 in a starting stat (Ok, my fighter does at level 1, but will be using the free rebuild rules to modify that to a 17 str at level 2) and none have anything lower then an 8.
7 strength? Track that encumbrance.
7 intelligence? You can barely talk right.
7 Charisma? No one notices you.
7 Wisdom? You have a hard time remembering where you are.
Raistlin had a 7 con, and his brother likely had an intelligence below 10 and they each had the high opposite stats to match.
Beyond that, rules like, don't go below 9-10 or only one 17-18. Things like that. When I get a point buy higher than 20, I prefer to avoid low stats before bumping important ones even higher, and the scale of point buy promotes that too. So you may be worrying about something that wouldn't (couldn't) even happen.
Well first of all higher bonuses had very similar effects in 3.5. I expect it was a matter of what your group takes advantage of. Pathfinder though in particular is balanced around a 15 point buy.
But i prefer a 15 point buy power level, without the dumping and over specialization it causes. The answer I came up with is simply to put a hard limit on the maximum score a character can have. I do a 25 point buy, but no score can be over a 17 after racial modifiers at creation (assuming first level) and no score can be under 10 before racial modifiers.
|
20 pt buy seems to be right in our wheel house. However, my players rarely dump their stats. If people dump stats it usually comes back to haunt them at some point. You could say a few of them even have a phobia about dumping. Think I lucked out. I'd say try 20 point buy and start with a drip on the item/gold faucet.
i don't like rolling because it punishes the honest people... every group (in my experience) has like 1 or 2 players who always seem to roll an 18 right when you looked away for a second to answer someone else or something- they show up to play with some obscene character who's lowest stat is like a 16 and meanwhile you've another player (who's may be a way better roleplayer) who is just constantly overshadowed or made obsolete by him because he actually rolled his stats and they vary from 8 to 16...
i recognize that the real world is clearly not a point buy (so there's sort of more realism in rolling) but its hard to have fun sometimes when your highest stat (that you only have 1 of) is tied with someone else's lowest. plus the people who get really excited about those outrageous stats are often the same ones who will hog the spotlight at the table and have their characters bully other weaker characters...
if you want to emphasize secondary stats there are a couple ways you can do it on a point buy...
1) revalue the buy- make a 7 only worth 3 instead of 4, starting at 16 increase the cost every point instead of every other (10 for a 16, 14 for a 17, 19 for an 18)- that will encourage less dumping, less maxing one stat, and more stats in the 14-16 range...
2) impose limitations- use a higher point buy but tell people something like 'only one 18, no 2 stats more than 10 points apart after racials' or whatever seems appropriate.
3) stat arrays- instead of rolling or point buy, give them 2-3 sets of stats to chose from (that they can put in whatever order they want). start with a specialist that has like an 18 in one thing but the rest of the stats aren't great, then have a balanced guy who has maybe like two 16s and basically 10-12 in everything else (but has a slightly higher total point buy), and then do a universalist who has basically all 13-14s (and the highest total point buy, though it probably shouldn't be a big gap- maybe like 20, 22, 25). let them apply racial modifiers after ordering (and they'll all apply leveling bonuses differently) to create even more variety in the final stat arrays.
|
I've been pretty happy with "25 point buy, cannot sell stats (pre-racial) below 10" or using an (admittedly generous) array of (pre-racial) 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10.
Or, if you want some randomness, but don't want the absurd skew you can get with raw dicerolls, grab a deck of cards and seperate out the 4-9 of two different suits. Shuffle this stack and reveal cards two at a time, the total is your pre-racial stat. (You can then rearrange which numbers go where, if you'd like). This generates stats that tend a bit towards the middle (you can only get an 18 by drawing both 9s, for example).
I am trying something new in the game I am contemplating now (there is an interest check up for it now) where everyone starts with an Int of 16 then,
there are five stats
19, 15, 14, 12, and 10
And five players have to decide where those stats go for each character with the rule that no two characters can have the same stat in any ability, after racial modifiers.
We'll see how it goes.
|
I'm trying to work out exactly what your issue is, but all I keep coming back to is that you want MAD characters like Fighters to have higher-but-diverse stats and SAD characters like Wizards lower-and-diverse stats.
The answer to that is to either give up and love the min/max, or houserule no starting stats below 10 (for the sake of bias, I think min/max is fine and self-penalising/rewarding).
But what's throwing me is that as far as I can tell, this was the same in 3.5, albeit starting at 8 instead of 10. It sounds like you're talking about the added class features as well though, which makes the issue much more muddy. Focus on one problem/fix at a time.
Just on the note of why I don't mind min-max, a low charisma will always at some point hurt your social skills; a low wisdom will always at some point hurt your will saves, a low strength will always at some point hurt your strength, etc. There are ways around these problems (isolate yourself, headbands, belts, haversack), but these are still investments that need to be made because you did that. In the end, people get to enjoy their characters that much more, which is really the bottom line.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also useful is Rolled Point-buy, so you don't get to custom design your stats (similar to rolling), but everyone comes out even.
Chart: What to Roll
17+ points (7-18): 1d12 + 6 (avg 12.5)
13-16 points (7-17): 2d6 + 5 (avg 12)
10-12 points (7-16): 3d4 + 4 (avg 11.5)
7-9 points (7-15): 4d3 + 3 (avg 11)
5-6 points (7-14): 1d8 + 6 (avg 10.5)
3-4 points (7-13): 2d4 + 5 (avg 10)
2 points (7-12): 1d6 + 6 (avg 9.5)
1 point (7-11): 2d3 + 5 (avg 9)
0 points (7-10): 1d4 + 6 (avg 8.5)
Can't find the original post to credit I'm afraid.
But what's throwing me is that as far as I can tell, this was the same in 3.5, albeit starting at 8 instead of 10.
This is true - in fact Pathfinder made single-stating harder, with earlier increases to point-buy costs. Not a huge adjustment though. Probably the biggest thing is allowing 7's, and giving extra for it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I prefer rolling, Point Buy is a min-maxers favourite, so if you want less cheese, go with rolling.
Plus, I hate having to decide how to spread them so I prefer rolling for that reason. My preference for a well-rounded character contributes to this too.
25 point buy, even with unrestricted stat dumping, isn't a problem and you don't need to target dump stats to prove a point either
. you just need to re-evaluate how you design your encounters and learn from mistakes in design. most of those Excess points, aren't going into primary or even secondary stats, most of them are going into tertiary and fluff stats.
hell, i have no problem with Str 5 Sorcerers or Cha 5 barbarians, and i don't even track every last ounce. i don't need the carpet bombing of shadows, i don't need excessive amounts of grapple checks either. i'm not out to kill PCs, if they die of their own stupidity, it's their fault.
yes, i will use the resources available to my monsters to kit them out, such as magic items and consumables, but if you defeat a monster with absurd levels of wealth, it isn't Extra XP you get, it's the monster's greater than normal Treasure you get as an alternative reward
plus, i don't adhere to WBL except to gear up new characters, and i even allow reslotting of existing items to get around slot limitations. and 3.5 material.
i still challenge people just fine. in fact, if an entire group is looking to play as the Avengers or as the A-Team. i will let them, i will merely up the optimization level of the encounters to compensate by swapping monster equipment and swapping feats, point buying the monsters and so on.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I prefer rolling, Point Buy is a min-maxers favourite, so if you want less cheese, go with rolling.
Plus, I hate having to decide how to spread them so I prefer rolling for that reason. My preference for a well-rounded character contributes to this too.
This is exactly the opposite of my experience. Common rolling methods end up with some people rolling til they get a set they like and then rearranging them to suit their wants.
Min-Maxers min-max regardless of which system is used. At least with a stat array or point buy, there is some assurance that the characters are somewhat on a level playing field.
I'm about to start a new game, and I'm wrestling with how to generate characters. Die-rolling is heavily favored by my old gaming groups, and it does have the potential for more well-rounded characters...but by the same token, it can create lackluster characters, as well as imbalance among the party.Point-buy is an elegant solution, but it leads to very specialized characters with nearly ludicrous weak points.
Well, I actually consider that to be an advantage, because a character with no weak points is boring. Characters with dump stats can more easily be put into situations where they don't automatically dominate everything they encounter. When the party bard and sorcerer have been arrested for conduct unbecoming, it falls to the Cha 7 fighter to figure out a way to get them released, and all of a sudden the player has to work to accomplish a goal instead of simply charging through enemies.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If a player dumps a stat, he's going to pay for it down the line somewhere. Even the 7 STR Wizard; even a little bit of Strength drain/damage and he's helpless on the floor.
'Well rounded stats' and 'well rounded character' aren't mutually exclusive. One's system mastery when it comes to character creation has exactly zero to do with one's ability to craft a good character background/personality and roleplay it.
In my experience, a character with obvious strengths and weaknesses is more memorable and, again for me, fun than a character with a homogenous stat line.
And, for me, point buy is preferred because I want to create the character I want to play, not fickle fate. I want to decide my good stats and bad stats. If I have a crappy stat, i want it to be because I decided I wanted it, not because the dice handed it to me. One bad roll should not penalize a character for his entire career (also why I don't roll HP).
Related to the last is that I'm a big fan of letting players play what they want. Their character is the only part of the game world they really have any control over, and as such, they should be allowed to build it to their own specifications. It's THEIR character; unless what they do is going to break the game (dumping a stat won't), they should be able to do what they want.
Well first of all higher bonuses had very similar effects in 3.5. I expect it was a matter of what your group takes advantage of. Pathfinder though in particular is balanced around a 15 point buy.
But i prefer a 15 point buy power level, without the dumping and over specialization it causes. The answer I came up with is simply to put a hard limit on the maximum score a character can have. I do a 25 point buy, but no score can be over a 17 after racial modifiers at creation (assuming first level) and no score can be under 10 before racial modifiers.
I plan on using something similar in my own games. I prefer point-buy, again because it doesnt leave the chance that someone has unplayable stats. Either that or a stat array you decide; but I prefer leaving players control over what their characters are.
I had a big post about letting your players pick their stats (tl;dr a great idea if you know your players really well, they love roleplaying, and won't abuse it, terrible idea in pretty much every other scenario), but I did have an idea in the middle of it.
Let's say (rough outline made in 5 minutes)...
-20 point buy (or whatever you normally use in your campaigns)
-1 stat 10 > x > 7, the rest have to be 10 or above
-No stat above 16 before racial modifier (maybe 17 if they don't have a modifier for that stat)
Once they allocate their points, you then "lock" 2-3 stats into place, the most important stats for the class (Str and Con for a fighter, Int and Dex for a wizard, etc.) and then give an additional 5-10 points to allocate for roleplaying purposes. For example, let's say I wanted to play as a charismatic barbarian, which while thematically may make sense is a terrible idea on paper because Charisma is the barbarian's go-to dump stat. So, first I start with this...
Strength: 16, Dexterity: 11, Constitution: 16, Intelligence: 11, Wisdom: 8, Charisma: 10.
Then, I can put in an extra 5 (or 7, or 10) points as long as it's
A) not in Strength or Constitution and
B) relevant (to some extent) to my character's personality/backstory/etc. (subject to GM approval).
So, my barbarian can bump his Charisma up to 14 and still have good (though not super optimized) primary stats. He can do his job in the fray and my character concept is complete; on average he's somewhat stronger than the average point buy character, but not game-breakingly so by any means.
It also brings up MAD classes a little closer to SAD classes. A wizard only *needs* high Intelligence to be effective, but a monk needs Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom in greater or lesser amounts, and oftentimes has to dump Intelligence and Charisma at least sometimes to keep up. This makes MAD classes less feasible for roleplaying by the numbers since they can't afford to spend a few points in a less necessary stat (when's the last time you met a PC monk of above average Charisma?), whereas the Wizard can afford to throw a couple of points (or not subtract points) into Strength and still maintain a similar (if not as high) level of effectiveness. With the extra 5 points, the wizard doesn't get any smarter, but the monk can get an extra point of Strenght/Dexterity/Constitution/Wisdom AND afford to shore up his Intelligence/Charisma, making him just plain more effective and more interesting from a roleplaying standpoint.
I just made this system up in the middle of the post, so it has absolutely zero testing and I'm sure has a few things that don't make any sense, but I think it's worth remembering and making a topic about.
tl;dr: a bunch of hypothetical bull**** i just made up
In my troupe we use 4d6 drop the lowest but we roll a grid of stats (36 in all) and then choose any row column or diagonal. No dump stats and less chance of bogus stats.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As someone who has notoriously bad stat rolls (or maybe who plays with a whole lot of cheaters), I appreciate the Stat Array.
It allows for the DM to control the power level (you could set a Point Buy of 15, 20, or whatever) and every character gets to build as they like.
When I'm rolling 16, 14, 13, 11, 11, 9 (on 4d6 drop one) and the other guy is rolling 18, 18, 18, 16, 15, 10, I'm pretty instantly feeling like Gabrielle to the Xena of the group. A sidekick rather than a hero.
When you're making your char, you roll in front of the DM, they see your rolls and those rolls are what you get, you can assign them as you'd like.
If someone's rolls suck (lets say 4d6 drop the lowers) and the person gets 1s across the board for a grand total of 4, the DM can intervene to adjust it. Likewise, the lucky guy who gets an 18 roll can be asked to make some concessions. Plus it's natural that there be some spread of abilities in a group, and the wizard isn't as smart as the fighter is strong as the cleric is wise.
If you're DMing remotely with people you're unfamilliar with, sure go with point buy for accountability but if not, then rolling gets my vote every time.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Likewise, the lucky guy who gets an 18 roll can be asked to make some concessions.
Hmm, perhaps I am cynical or something, but my expected answer on that request after a "fair" roll would be a resounding, "No, I don't think so Tim."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just remember: Point buy power level is NOT an indication of the world's power level overall, it's the measure of power of each individual PC. Not every single adventurer has 15 point buy, or the equivalent of a heroic NPC stat array.
For mechanics heavy games, I usually use point-buy. I also extend the point-buy system past 18, and give bonus points [as they level].
Now THAT is a rule variation that I would be curious to try. What if, at 4th/8th/12th/16th level, you got 4 "point buy" points instead of +1 to a single stat?
Like every rule change, I am sure that it would create as many problems as it solves. (Can you bank them? Do upper level adventures break if you don't have a 20 in your primary stat?) But it seems worth considering.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
7 strength? Track that encumbrance.
7 intelligence? You can barely talk right.
7 Charisma? No one notices you.
7 Wisdom? You have a hard time remembering where you are.
Lower stat have soe penalties asociatd to them and that is it, no need to make new rules aout it.
Wis 7 gives -2 to will saves and perception checks, that is it.
i agree with this wholeheartedly
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Therefore, I think table balance is more important than any other factor in a campaign and point buy is my favorite method of character creation. If dice are rolled, I prefer the DM roll up one statline and give it to the players to do with as they please.
I was with you up until this; this is one of the cases where sameness does not correspond to equality. As some classes are significantly more MAD than others, if you roll up a statline and it only has one good stat, while the others are mediocre, some classes will be fine, and many others will suffer heavily. It would be better in either case, to just go with point buy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
25 PB is perfect for my needs.
It allows characters with high core stats, while still retaining solid "non-core" stats. There will usually be one dump stat, but whereas on 20 PB a Fighter will generally end up something like...
Str: 18 (racial +2)
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
At best, and...
Str: 20 (racial +2)
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 7
Wis: 11
Cha: 7
At worst, with 25 you end up with more wiggle room, allowing the fighter to maintain that 18 Str everyone wants, while still having a 10 Cha, or dumping Cha to have a 14 Int (my favorite Str-based martial stat array with 25 PB is either 18 14 14 12 14 8 or 18 14 14 14 12 8, or dropping the 8 to a 7 and bumping De to 15 for TWFing because I loves me some Master of Many Styles based unarmed characters).
It's not unbalancing at all. Martials get what they need with their core stats, with more room for secondary stats to have fun with, and casters gain little since being SAD basically means that while you NEED no other stat, you don't particularly benefit from any others either (are you REALLY going to see much of a difference in melee ability between a Str 10 or below Wizard and a Wizard with 14 Str? Yeah I didn't think so.). And hey, they deserve to have fun too.
Last time I played a rolled stat character I had a Sorcerer with 16 Str, and it was funny being one of the "buff guys" in the group (compared to an Archer Ranger, a non-combat Cleric, and a TWFer, the only other "strongman" being the Barbarian), and 25 PB lets you recreate that somewhat.
|
|
Here are some of my suggestions before rolling into the world of house rules:
1. Use the the recommended 15 point buy instead of the high power 20 point buy. It is roughly what the game is intended to run at and it makes tanking stats sting a lot more.
2. Take a moment at some point during your campaign to look over character sheets again for math errors, inconsistency and the like. This refreshes your understanding of what they can do for encounter building and makes sure that people aren't forgetting new powers or bonuses.
C. Have one player who is utterly destroying every encounter on their own? TALK TO THEM ABOUT IT. The whole point of this game is to give you and your friends an opportunity to have fun together and that includes you as the GM. If your friend is doing something to make it nearly impossible to create fun encounters you need to talk to them about it. They will most likely be will reign things in on their own. A simple, "Hey Beth, ummm, your Monk is like crazy powerful and I can't really do challenge it without destroying everyone else..." can solve a lot of problems.
2. Anything-you-want magic item markets and infinite gold piece 24/7 money changers don't shouldn't in a properly balanced game. A vast amount of power differences come from either an imbalance or over-abundance of treasure. Far more damage is done here then with simple stat arrays.
Point-buy is an elegant solution, but it leads to very specialized characters with nearly ludicrous weak points.
This came up in another thread too, and I didn't understand it there, either. 7 is not just a weak score, it's a "ludicrous" weak score?
Which brings me to the forums, wondering if other people have tackled the problem of stat diversity, or if I should just give up and love the min/max.
What do you mean by "stat diversity"?
EDIT AFTER PLAYING WITH POINT BUY CALCULATOR: If a player truly "Min/Max"'d stats with 20 point buy, they'd have 20, 18, 8, 7, 7, 7, right? Do you think a character with those stats would outperform one with less extreme stats?
|
Point-buy is an elegant solution, but it leads to very specialized characters with nearly ludicrous weak points.This came up in another thread too, and I didn't understand it there, either. 7 is not just a weak score, it's a "ludicrous" weak score?
Which brings me to the forums, wondering if other people have tackled the problem of stat diversity, or if I should just give up and love the min/max.What do you mean by "stat diversity"?
EDIT AFTER PLAYING WITH POINT BUY CALCULATOR: If a player truly "Min/Max"'d stats with 20 point buy, they'd have 20, 18, 8, 7, 7, 7, right? Do you think a character with those stats would outperform one with less extreme stats?
if it's a scarred witch doctor, yes. If it's a monk, no.
if it's a scarred witch doctor, yes. If it's a monk, no.
Well Scarred Witch doctor is not exactly a common character type, but let's run with that. Even if, worst case scenario, you end up with a party of Scarred Witch Doctors, they're going to have some glaring weaknesses with that array - either bad saves, no carrying capacity, poor touch AC, awful charisma, or just dumb as a post.
Rolling for stats is evil. Point buy is the way to go.
To prevent min maxing just don't allow people to buy down to 7.
Sample arrays before race mods
16 14 14 10 10 10
15 14 14 14 10 8
I really don't use anything else when I build chars.
To prevent min maxing just don't allow people to buy down to 7.
This is what I don't understand. What's so unseemly about buying down to 7 as opposed to 8, like in your sample array?
EDIT:
For any new characters if a character dies, I'm going to insist on a 25-point build. For my next campaign, I'll insist on 20-point builds with no buying down of stats. And we'll see how it works.
Same question. Why no buying down?
Okay. Speaking as a 1st edition AD&D player and GM, I have to say this: while I like the freedom of rolled stats, I've realized bad rolls by one player can unfairly impact the game. Likewise, really good stats by another player can result in an imbalance.
I've seen this in my Skype game in which I ended up increasing the stats for two players so that they'd be on par with the two high-rolled characters. I've also had to give all the monsters the Advanced Template to compensate (though to be honest, a Barbarian with a 19 Strength at 1st level is easily doable with a point build and would still be a problem).
For any new characters if a character dies, I'm going to insist on a 25-point build. For my next campaign, I'll insist on 20-point builds with no buying down of stats. And we'll see how it works.
To prevent min maxing just don't allow people to buy down to 7.This is what I don't understand. What's so unseemly about buying down to 7 as opposed to 8, like in your sample array?
7 is the point that you are minmaxing and is inexcusable with a point buy of 20 or greater.
7s are also used for poor race/class combos to shore up the essential stats. It's still minmaxing though.
Look at it this way. 8s are to 12s what 7s are to 14s as in ability mod.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
7 is the point that you are minmaxing and is inexcusable with a point buy of 20 or greater.
Why is it "inexcusable"?
I have never understood people's vast horror at allowing someone an extra 2 points to play with.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
7 is the point that you are minmaxing and is inexcusable with a point buy of 20 or greater.
7s are also used for poor race/class combos to shore up the essential stats. It's still minmaxing though.
Look at it this way. 8s are to 12s what 7s are to 14s as in ability mod.
I'm afraid you're going to have to dumb that down a shade for me.
So: 15 14 14 14 10 8 = four bonuses, one penalty = A-OK
15 15 14 14 10 7 = four bonuses, one penalty = unacceptable min/max?
To prevent min maxing just don't allow people to buy down to 7.This is what I don't understand. What's so unseemly about buying down to 7 as opposed to 8, like in your sample array?7 is the point that you are minmaxing and is inexcusable with a point buy of 20 or greater.
7s are also used for poor race/class combos to shore up the essential stats. It's still minmaxing though.
Look at it this way. 8s are to 12s what 7s are to 14s as in ability mod.
Exactly, only ONE seven? You can fit at least two in there.