Good PrCs?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Level 1 Commoner wrote:
Do you really ask that? Would you allow a "Screw-your-campaign"-at-will-button in a game of yours?
Last Resort (Su) wrote:
At 10th level, when the deathseeker witnesses an event that will undoubtly plunge an otherwise neutral or good aligned world towards evil, the deathseeker may activate this ability. If the Gamemaster agrees that there is no other way to prevent this catastrophe, the immediate 3 square mile radius, including the deathseeker and all beings and objects in this area, is transported to an inescapable demiplane where they remain for no less than 1,000 years. Nothing is immune to this effect, not even artifacts. As this is a potentially campaign-ending power, the Gamemaster may adjudicate when this power may be used, or if it can be used at all. The Gamemaster may optionally increase or decrease the area of effect as needed. The Gamemaster may provide some means of escape for any good or neutral aligned non-kval who become trapped on the resulting demiplane at his discretion.

I've bolded the sections that allow Gamemaster control to prevent it from ruining the campaign. From what is written, this can really only be used when the only other option is failure. Otherwise the Gamemaster can say "no, there are other options available so I am not allowing the power to work". It's a narrative power, for those situations when the party has failed to defeat the evil they are fighting, so they seal it away for a thousand years. This can allow an entirely new campaign to deal with the consequences of this action, rather than being left with a ruined campaign world due to the failure of the PCs.


Where can I find this Deathseeker class you speak of?


Caedwyr wrote:
Level 1 Commoner wrote:
Do you really ask that? Would you allow a "Screw-your-campaign"-at-will-button in a game of yours?
Last Resort (Su) wrote:
At 10th level, when the deathseeker witnesses an event that will undoubtly plunge an otherwise neutral or good aligned world towards evil, the deathseeker may activate this ability. If the Gamemaster agrees that there is no other way to prevent this catastrophe, the immediate 3 square mile radius, including the deathseeker and all beings and objects in this area, is transported to an inescapable demiplane where they remain for no less than 1,000 years. Nothing is immune to this effect, not even artifacts. As this is a potentially campaign-ending power, the Gamemaster may adjudicate when this power may be used, or if it can be used at all. The Gamemaster may optionally increase or decrease the area of effect as needed. The Gamemaster may provide some means of escape for any good or neutral aligned non-kval who become trapped on the resulting demiplane at his discretion.
I've bolded the sections that allow Gamemaster control to prevent it from ruining the campaign. From what is written, this can really only be used when the only other option is failure. Otherwise the Gamemaster can say "no, there are other options available so I am not allowing the power to work". It's a narrative power, for those situations when the party has failed to defeat the evil they are fighting, so they seal it away for a thousand years. This can allow an entirely new campaign to deal with the consequences of this action, rather than being left with a ruined campaign world due to the failure of the PCs.

I don't know, though, that sounds better as a MacGuffin power, maybe something in some artifact, than a class ability that is inexorably tied to a single person. I think that because in essence, the ending of a campaign and starting a new one should be a decision made among everyone at the table, and not something that only involves the Deathseeker's player and the GM. If I were another player at that table, just the existence of the class ability would drive me to leave the campaign and not look back. It takes agency away from the group and awards it to the Deathseeker's player.


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Icyshadow wrote:
Where can I find this Deathseeker class you speak of?

It's a prestige class you can find here Deathseeker

The ability is only available at level 17 at the earliest, so it's a capstone "you win the game" type ability. This isn't something that's going to wreck campaigns, but instead pull a partial victory out of the flames of failure.


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Other prestige classes that are interesting and you might be able to build something fun with:

Gutter Stalker

Dinosaur Cultist

I like the Test of Meat part.


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Everybody loves the Test of Meat, man.

Those are oldish -- early 3.5. I think James Jacobs wrote the Dinosaur Cultist?

Doug M.


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Yes to both. They are conversions to PFRPG with a bit of input from James Jacobs.


Caedwyr wrote:

Other prestige classes that are interesting and you might be able to build something fun with:

Gutter Stalker

Dinosaur Cultist

I like the Test of Meat part.

The Gutter Stalker looks VERY interesting. Can make for an interesting combo "BBEG" along side a Pestilence Sorcerer , a Blight Druid , or a druid using Divine Favor: Druid's alternate rules for swarm shaping (the druid'd wildshape acts as Swarmskin, with the HD of swarms equal to your druid level). Turning into a giant swarm, swirling around a snarling and disease ridden Ratbarian who is also surrounded by his own swarm would be a VERY cool BBEG(s). And, if you give your Barb Eldritch Heritage (Pestilience) so that he can stand in a swarm and not take damage (I believe it is the 9th level ability) then it would get even more terrifying (Imagine a swarmshaped druid spamming create swarm and creeping doom while the Barb has his creeping doom and the barb is immune to all of it).


Internet ate my post, -sigh- here we go with take two.

I'm very fond of the bloatmage for a wizard. if you can get around the movement penalties (you are a wizard so you should). if you can early entry you can get about 25% extra spell levels per day (29 extra avrg) that unlike the rest of your spell casting is prepared. This adds great versatility and power. Lets say you want to go nova, well instead of having 4 lvl 6 spells per day (assuming arcane bonded object) you suddenly have 8 lvl 6 spells per day (though only 3 slots and arcane bond) and an extra lvl 5 spell per day. Need to cast fly on the whole party, but only have it prepared once? No problem, you can cast it 10 times per day if truly necessary without touching your arcane bond, which is less spell slot efficient as if you use it on fly at lvl 11 you effectively lose 3 spell levels.

It's still good at the end of the game as it means 3 more level 9 spells per day, though it really shines, peaks around level 8 bloatmage especially if you get early entry. The capstone ability adds still more to your versatility, and gives you a real reason to get craft potion.

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I honestly considered giving prestige class levels as in-game rewards where prestige class levels are independent of your normal class levels. It makes sense to me considering that nearly all prestige classes are tied to a some kind of faction or professional status. Any prestige class that doesn't fit this description would probably be better off retooled as an archetype anyway.


Cyrad wrote:
I honestly considered giving prestige class levels as in-game rewards where prestige class levels are independent of your normal class levels. It makes sense to me considering that nearly all prestige classes are tied to a some kind of faction or professional status. Any prestige class that doesn't fit this description would probably be better off retooled as an archetype anyway.

What's the archetype you'd use for mystic theurge?

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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
I honestly considered giving prestige class levels as in-game rewards where prestige class levels are independent of your normal class levels. It makes sense to me considering that nearly all prestige classes are tied to a some kind of faction or professional status. Any prestige class that doesn't fit this description would probably be better off retooled as an archetype anyway.
What's the archetype you'd use for mystic theurge?

I'm surprised they didn't make an alternate class for that in the Advanced Class Guide

Dark Archive

Mystic theurge is a really crappy "band-aid" PrC that can be surprisingly good if you use the tricks to get early entry. An aasimar cleric 1/sorcerer (empyreal bloodline)2/mystic theurge x can work pretty well.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
What's the archetype you'd use for mystic theurge?

"Just play a witch." (per just about everyone who considers the mystic theurge a "horrible" cleric or wizard when compared to a single-classed cleric or wizard, instead of comparing them as a cleric vs. the single-classed wizard or a wizard vs. the single-classed cleric which was the intent behind the class; many of the "weak" prestige classes like arcane trickster, eldritch knight, and mystic theurge were put in place to allow some of the options from 1st/2nd Ed AD&D, which handled multi-classing differently)


Dragonchess Player wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
What's the archetype you'd use for mystic theurge?
"Just play a witch."

Not a very good substitute at all.

The primary advantage of the mystic theurge as a character is flexibility; you can cast almost any spell in the game. The witch actually has one of the poorer spell lists for full casters -- you miss out on both the truly awesome wizard spells and the truly awesome cleric spells. In addition, the witch spell list locks you into a relatively limited tactical role (the save-or-suck caster)

The secondary advantage is the sheer number of spells you can cast; with the open-slots rules, you can carry around a full spell load and still be able to prepare utility spells at a few minutes notice.

And, of course, if you're willing to lose a level of spell access, the mystic theurge is one of the few if not the only way to effectively combine the strategic flexibility of a prepared caster with the tactical flexibility of a spontaneous caster (oracle/wizard, or cleric/sorcerer).


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As williamoak stated, prestige classes in Pathfinder aren't the "obvious choice" (unlike 3.x). It's an option for specific characters that are looking for specific ability sets.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
What's the archetype you'd use for mystic theurge?
"Just play a witch."
Not a very good substitute at all.

Hey, I agree, for the most part. A lot depends on the patron and what the emphasis of the witch is; a Healer patron and/or hedge witch archetype (with the Healing hex) can pretty much fill in for a cleric as the primary healer, but with better battlefield control options and improved utility spells (granted, they can't "do it all"). However, many feel that the witch is "what the mystic theurge should have been," because of the loss of spell progression and caster level required to qualify for a mystic theurge.

What a lot of people miss about the mystic theurge is that it's Batman, not Superman. The mystic theurge will have less raw power than a single class caster for the ability to pick and choose from two complete spell lists; with a couple item creation feats (outside of PFS) like Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand, they can literally have the perfect spell available for just about any circumstance. Even the MADness of separate casting ability scores can be mitigated (cleric/wildblooded (empyreal) sorcerer, for instance).


i like Arcane Trickster, could be a powerfull class.


The Shaman, from ACG revised playtest, is looking good for a theurge-like character. The full Druid list, with the stars of the Cleric list and a few stellar arcane spells, and the ability to cherry-pick a few more with the Lore spirit.


Mystic theurge is incredibly powerful with the recent rulings. Losing a single caster level of your main class to get a full complement of extra casting at level -3 is amazing.


Ilja wrote:
Mystic theurge is incredibly powerful with the recent rulings. Losing a single caster level of your main class to get a full complement of extra casting at level -3 is amazing.

But a martial taking advantage of the retrain rules to get, say, Duelist abilities sooner must be immediately stopped!


I quite like the Magaambyan Arcanist. 10/10 casting, cherry pick (ha) druid spells, get access to the Good Domain spell list, and makes spell mastery somewhat useful.

Also, Horizon Walker allows earliest access to the Dimensional Agility line without getting into monster PCs, which is something. (I don't know if it's something especially good, but it's definitely something)


I'm still not convinced that the early-entry Aasimar Mystic Theurge works as written. What is the spell level of a spell-like ability received at first character level? First, not second.

Besides, I tire of aasimar goodies.


Sayt wrote:

I quite like the Magaambyan Arcanist. 10/10 casting, cherry pick (ha) druid spells, get access to the Good Domain spell list, and makes spell mastery somewhat useful.

Also, Horizon Walker allows earliest access to the Dimensional Agility line without getting into monster PCs, which is something. (I don't know if it's something especially good, but it's definitely something)

The Horizon Walker is a good pure-martial prestige class. There's a lot of nifty powers you can stack onto yourself that are useful, like the dimensional stuff.


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Wrong John Silver wrote:

I'm still not convinced that the early-entry Aasimar Mystic Theurge works as written. What is the spell level of a spell-like ability received at first character level? First, not second.

Besides, I tire of aasimar goodies.

It's explicitly allowed. And spell level is only based on acquirement level for abilities that do not mimic spells (such as a few school powers for wizards).

LoneKnave wrote:
Ilja wrote:
Mystic theurge is incredibly powerful with the recent rulings. Losing a single caster level of your main class to get a full complement of extra casting at level -3 is amazing.
But a martial taking advantage of the retrain rules to get, say, Duelist abilities sooner must be immediately stopped!

Honestly, I think the whole "SLA works for all spell prerequisites" ruling is really silly, both on a mechanical and thematic level. But unfortunately it's legal.


Ilja wrote:
Honestly, I think the whole "SLA works for all spell prerequisites" ruling is really silly, both on a mechanical and thematic level. But unfortunately it's legal.

Yes, I'm ignoring that single change in my campaign. (although for half the campaigns I run, I ban the aasimar and tiefling anyway)


^^^

You are aware that short of VERY corner cases (Oni-spawn Tiefling Monk), Aasimar and Teifling are no where near as powerful as the core races right...


K177Y C47 wrote:

^^^

You are aware that short of VERY corner cases (Oni-spawn Tiefling Monk), Aasimar and Teifling are no where near as powerful as the core races right...

Aasimar is very much at the top, IMO together with human and dwarf. It's a great race for a multitude of classes, and can do a few insane things (aasimar oracles especially).


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K177Y C47 wrote:

^^^

You are aware that short of VERY corner cases (Oni-spawn Tiefling Monk), Aasimar and Teifling are no where near as powerful as the core races right...

I didn't say I banned them for power reasons. I just don't like the concept of a bunch of planetouched wandering around everywhere.


I'm gonna put another vote for mystery cultist. I've just gotten the chronicles of the righteous, and honestly, it's great to get early celestial boons.


I have to say, I am reaaaaaally happy with the design of the new Living Monolith PrC in People of the Sands. The class features are unique and fairly powerful, and it even offers an interesting solution for being a attractive option for both casters and non-casters. The only issue I have is the fact that you're forced to switch enlarge person with Righteous Might, instead of getting to pick between the two, but that's easily hand-waved. I'm hoping to see a lot more PrCs designed like that one... I am quite impressed by it!


They made a new version of Living Monolith?


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Icyshadow wrote:
They made a new version of Living Monolith?

Yes, in people of the sands. Here's a peak, not sure how up to date it is. The book also came with an alchemist kind of PRC that I'm not a big fan of.


Did they really did a PF version of the living monolith PrC?


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I know I have skimmed Horizon Walker in the past and never really thought much of it, but this thread made me read over it a bit more carefully and wow. That is certainly where my Fighter/Chevalier is headed next.

PRD wrote:
these benefits apply to the horizon walker at all times whether or not he is in the relevant terrain.

That line, which i clearly missed in the past makes all the difference.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ilja wrote:
Mystic theurge is incredibly powerful with the recent rulings. Losing a single caster level of your main class to get a full complement of extra casting at level -3 is amazing.

That a SLA qualifies you for "can cast 3rd level spells" is, as far as I know, just a PFS ruling. Using a SLA to qualify as a caster of X level or for the ability to cast X spell is explicitly allowed, and was the same under 3.5. In my home games, I read "the ability to cast 3rd level spells" exactly as it reads, a generalized spellcasting ability (as though it said "as a member of a spellcasting class" basically, because that's what I think "the ability to cast spells" is).


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RJGrady wrote:
Ilja wrote:
Mystic theurge is incredibly powerful with the recent rulings. Losing a single caster level of your main class to get a full complement of extra casting at level -3 is amazing.
That a SLA qualifies you for "can cast 3rd level spells" is, as far as I know, just a PFS ruling.

No, it's a general ruling about the PF Core Rulebook. While you're welcome to house-rule however you like at your own table, deciding that SLA's don't count as spellcasting for purposes of prereqs is as much a change in the rules as deciding that druids are arcane casters.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Ilja wrote:
Mystic theurge is incredibly powerful with the recent rulings. Losing a single caster level of your main class to get a full complement of extra casting at level -3 is amazing.
That a SLA qualifies you for "can cast 3rd level spells" is, as far as I know, just a PFS ruling.
No, it's a general ruling about the PF Core Rulebook. While you're welcome to house-rule however you like at your own table, deciding that SLA's don't count as spellcasting for purposes of prereqs is as much a change in the rules as deciding that druids are arcane casters.
Quote:


Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.

I wasn't aware of that update, thanks for bringing it to my attention. However, I don't actually agree that the ruling "means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6)," if by "some classes," they mean Mystic Theurge, for the reasons I just specified. Simply because dimension door counts as dimension door, has a caster level, and is a 4th level spell doesn't mean the character "can cast 4th level spells." Since the ruling on that is stated to be provisional, I feel very comfortable saying it goes the other way in my home games.

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i like the early entry EK and MT.

i haven't done the math (so i'm not sure how effective it really is) but thematically i like the DD dragon knight (pally/sorc/DD, or even pally 2/sorc 1/EK with a 4 level DD dip from 6-9; need to be base aasimar for that build though).

i also like the magaambyan arcanist. they make good summoners (they get a good aura, which allows them to take Sacred Summons- they also get bonuses to duration and CL for good spells, which their sacred summons will be). combine it with the nature soul/animal ally/boon companion tree and you're basically an arcane druid (especially if you start with the wood elementalist school- which costs you far less opposition spells than a normal school).

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