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I like to push the envelope a bit with my characters. I keep it family friendly, no tourettes or anything like that. but I've been advised that I may be violating a code of conduct and need to change my characters names and play styles.
herpes the klown - grenadier (cone burst from his selzter bottle) and terrible children's clown. literally adventures in his clown suit. matches the mini I've painted. if kids are present, I tone his name down to "herpderp the klown" but that doesn't have the same zing.
rumpleforeskin - gnome prankster. he thinks he's a pimp. talks about his wimmens (of which he has none), and speaks in a voice similar to meatwad from ATHF. his bardic performance is limericks, but it isn't obscene or anything (no nantuckets, etc). and his cause fear is to shout, "say my name!" playing on the rumplestiltskin theme. I don't run this character with kids at the table at all.
I don't know if it's a local thing, but the ezren pregen here gets played typically as "slutty ezren" - a lecherous old man. I fail to see how a character named herpes the klown is any more offensive that "slutty ezren" who is actually roleplayed as such.
am I missing something here? I play these characters because I have fun with the roleplay aspect of them. no one has complained to me that they are offensive, and several people actually enjoy the concepts. but I've been advised that if someone got offended and reported me to a VC I could lose the character or something.
I think you passed "too far" a couple miles back there, buddy.
-j
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If you have to ask, you probably already know the answer.
That said, you seem to be doing the right thing, showing concern and restraint when impressionable or offended people are around. That's a mark in your favor. "Someone might complain, and then you'll be in trouble" is crap that people say when they don't have the spine to confront you on their own merit.
All that said, are you sure that these character concepts are a good fit for Pathfinder Society? Is their focus really to explore, report, and cooperate? Or would they fit better in a home game? That is the important question, after all, and it's up to you to find the answer to that.
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If you're at a table with other players whom you know well, and you are certain that they're cool with that style of humor (as well as characters that pretty seriously break any verisimilitude of the game), then there's no problem.
If you're at a table with a random group of adults, then yeah, you probably should tone it down several notches, IMO. I hate to be one who comes across as an old fart, but based on what you describe, I'm not sure I'd want to share a table with either of those characters.
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I have seen other characters played much, much worse. pedophiles. prostitutes. hell, that's half the fun is playing up NPCs like Zarta.
"herpes" and "foreskin" are both legitimate words, neither of which are vulgar. if you can say them on TV, why is it inappropriate for a game that's supposed to be fun?
I guess my question is, why does my game need to be sanitized to the satisfaction of the most conservative player at the table? if someone complained about my play style, I would do my best to accommodate them and make them comfortable. but I don't think I should have to scrap an entire character (or three) because someone is uptight.
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I guess my question is, why does my game need to be sanitized to the satisfaction of the most conservative player at the table? if someone complained about my play style, I would do my best to accommodate them and make them comfortable. but I don't think I should have to scrap an entire character (or three) because someone is uptight.
You have a right to enjoy crude humor. The guy sitting next to you has a right to not think it's funny, or to feel uncomfortable. What makes his right less valid than yours?
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All that said, are you sure that these character concepts are a good fit for Pathfinder Society? Is their focus really to explore, report, and cooperate? Or would they fit better in a home game? That is the important question, after all, and it's up to you to find the answer to that.
this, I think, is a valid objection. and I do make sure that my characters serve a purpose. they bring something valuable to the table. just because they don't do it altruistically shouldn't matter. isn't that why we have factions like qadira, sczarni and cheliax?
I think the "I can't get any other work and I'm good at killing/stealing/whatever" is a perfectly valid trope for an adventurer. and if you were to think about, that's like the motivation of most of the society. it's not about improving the world, it's about getting ahead.
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*facepaw*
Subtlety man, subtlety.
what would a subtle clown look like? or a subtle pimp? they would be terrible. some characters need to be larger than life to work.
I have more generic characters. most of them still have some schtick that makes them interesting and sets them apart. but I tend to build my characters around concepts, or even minis. the clown was my interpretation of the reaper figure for "zonkers the killer klown"...
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what would a subtle clown look like? or a subtle pimp? they would be terrible. some characters need to be larger than life to work.
And some character concepts just don't work well in an organized play environment, where you don't know the sensibilities or senses of humor of the people with whom you'll be playing. And, yes, IMO, that also includes "slutty Ezren", and the other "much worse" examples you say you've seen.
Also keep in mind that this is the official Paizo Pathfinder campaign. Paizo does have some required standards of behavior, at least at public games.
-j
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in reply to your statement: "... I've been advised that I may be violating a code of conduct and need to change my characters names and play styles...."
If someone seated at a gaming table with me asked me to stop doing something because it was making him uncomfortable, I'd stop doing it. If I was rattleing dice on the table top (something that I ask players to PLEASE not do when I am talking) and the judge asked me to stop - I would.
Heck - this is about ETIQUETTE - about "playing nice" together.
this is what I'm asking. I know it's inappropriate, and I'm comfortable enough playing a character to the table to have a good idea what I can and cannot do. if someone was uncomfortable, I'd change my style. if children were present, I wouldn't even play the character to begin with.
it's not about right or wrong. the morality doesn't concern me. are these characters legal to play?
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what would a subtle clown look like? or a subtle pimp? they would be terrible. some characters need to be larger than life to work.
I know a guy who runs a witch. He's described as an old wrinkled elf with a collar just like Shakespeare's, whose nose is swollen and red from years of alcoholism, whose shoes seem way too big for him ... it's not until he "cackles" that you realize you're playing next to a clown. It's absolutely brilliant.
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it's not about right or wrong. the morality doesn't concern me. are these characters legal to play?
As far as I can tell, the PFSGTOP doesn't have a black-and-white answer to this, but I'd suggest that some GMs and players may point to this section (on page 19 of the current version):
Do Not Bully Other Players
We’re all friends here, and we’re all playing a game together with the single purpose of having a wonderful time. Do not push other players around just because your character can. Extreme forms of dysfunctional play will not be tolerated. A little fun banter between PCs can be great roleplaying, but when you find yourself doing everything in your power to make another character look like an idiot or to undo everything that character is trying to accomplish, you’ve probably lost sight of the purpose of Pathfinder Society Organized Play and may be asked to leave the table. Playing your character is not an excuse for childish behavior. GMs should work with their event coordinators to resolve any out-of-game conflicts. If you are both the GM and the coordinator, use your own discretion. Extreme or repetitive cases should be resolved by asking the offender to leave the table.
(emphasis mine, in bold)
You may feel that the above does not describe this situation in the slightest. Others might disagree with you. You need to be prepared to accept that they have as valid a viewpoint as you do.
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You may feel that the above does not describe this situation in the slightest. Others might disagree with you. You need to be prepared to accept that they have as valid a viewpoint as you do.
this is precisely what I am looking for. if someone has a problem, I will tone things down to not make them uncomfortable (which is more than I can say for a few other people I've played with). however, that does not make the character illegal.
and I think I would have a valid complaint if someone like jiggy decided he spoke for "most normal people" and tossed me from his table over something so trivial.
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and I think I would have a valid complaint if someone like jiggy decided he spoke for "most normal people" and tossed me from his table over something so trivial.
He's the GM, and ultimately, it *is* his call to make, especially if he sensed that one or more of the other players at his table were being made uncomfortable by your character's description and behavior.
If I were your GM, I'd ask you to tone it down. If you were unwilling to do so (or proved that you weren't capable of doing so), *then* I'd be asking you to leave the table.
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what would a subtle clown look like?*facepaw*
Subtlety man, subtlety.
With the name. Appropriateness aside there's no joke, no pun, no humor to "get". There's also no relationship between Clown and herpes, its kinda random. Now if you absolutely MUST go for this the pun/theme you you might try "Clappy the clown. " ... that way you have some alliteration, some connection to your alchemist class (his seltzer bottle burns), some tenuous connection between the name and the profession and anyone old enough to get the joke was corrupted before they sat at the table.
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I know a guy who runs a witch. He's described as an old wrinkled elf with a collar just like Shakespeare's, whose nose is swollen and red from years of alcoholism, whose shoes seem way too big for him ... it's not until he "cackles" that you realize you're playing next to a clown. It's absolutely brilliant.
Nothing beats Chuck's laugh however.
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I am all about adult humor. I am huge into dark humor as well.
Although I do not force it in people's faces. Those names while definaetly would be entertained at my table is not fair to force on other people. When you are playing with a child and they keep askign why someone find yoru name funny put forces that persons parent to deal with that. That is not fair for you to do them.
I have a Pesh addict named Depeche mode. If I play him around kids I make him stupid instead of a sterotypical over the top drug addict.
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Yes, you have crossed the line.
It's true that genitals and the diseases that afflict them are all real words and can be said on TV, but flagrantly using them as character names sends a poor message to other players, prospective players, and onlookers. This in turn reflects poorly on the local community, the venue where the game is held, and the hobby as a whole. Essentially slapping a derogatory sexual title on Ezren is even worse—not only due to the degree of offense but also because you're promoting (actively, passively, or both) its continued use in the gaming community. I assure you that those names are not, as you say, "family friendly."
Being willing to tone back the name when asked is a step, but by that point you've already sent the understood message of "I would be enjoying my risqué name if you hadn't objected" or "We're typically much more vulgar when people like you aren't around." Is that what you're intending to say? Perhaps it is not, but that's nonetheless what many will hear. It creates an uncomfortable—even hostile—environment that drives off potential gamers.
When I have a player who's doing this, I take him aside to discuss the matter but can accept that this is one person's behavior and hopefully will not reflect poorly on the community that I'm trying to grow. If this is a GM, I try to talk to him during a break (if the issue is minor) or immediately (if worse) to make clear my objections. Fortunately, most locations have a store liaison who, like a manager, can ensure that the gaming environment is a friendly, comfortable one. If it's the liaison or another leadership-type figure who's promoting this behavior, I (the representative prospective consumer) am done with that group, that store, and possibly even that hobby. Normally a liaison is someone to whom I can bring my concerns to seek resolution. If the liaison is the source of the problem, it is clear to me that I have no recourse except to leave.
Think of how it looks to someone from the outside.
Adult: I'm so glad you agreed to try this game. Everyone is super cool and really nice. The hobby is a lot different than those negative stereotypes you may have heard.
Spouse: Okay. I'm optimistic.
Random player: And what's best is his name—Herpes the Clown! He's almost as fun as my gnome Rumpledforeskin!
Spouse: Ooookay…I'm no longer optimistic.
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I have a Pesh addict named Depeche mode. If I play him around kids I make him stupid instead of a sterotypical over the top drug addict.
I'm curious, how do you play that out? does the character get fatigued or something?
I have a blind swordsman named zatoichi. samurai with two levels of oracle for the "clouded vision" curse, but I play it true blind with more of a sixth sense for the battlefield in his 30 ft range. I haven't encountered anyone that has a problem with that. except that he took light instead of stabilize as an oracle spell. in his defense, he thinks light is actually detect magic.
paizo has informed me in an email that even my renamed grenadier, "merkin the klown" is inappropriate. I have asked for a clarification as to what will "cross the line of what is acceptable as an alias/avatar name on paizo.com" and wait with bated breath for their definition.
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what would a subtle clown look like? or a subtle pimp? they would be terrible. some characters need to be larger than life to work.I know a guy who runs a witch. He's described as an old wrinkled elf with a collar just like Shakespeare's, whose nose is swollen and red from years of alcoholism, whose shoes seem way too big for him ... it's not until he "cackles" that you realize you're playing next to a clown. It's absolutely brilliant.
Not only is this example of subtlety not-terrible, the joke has completely brightened my day.
It is a perfect example of a joke in a character that keeps it classy.
Look at your characters and ask where there are on the classy meter - if they rate highly, your most conservative teammates are unlikely to complain and you can all still enjoy the game.
You can't just wait for people to get uncomfortable enough to complain, because some people will just get uncomfortable enough to leave (and probably rightly so).
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Look at your characters and ask where there are on the classy meter - if they rate highly, your most conservative teammates are unlikely to complain and you can all still enjoy the game.
not every character needs to be classy. not every character even needs to be *good*.
do you consider Zarta to be classy? how about Calistria and her followers? there are numerous scenarios and modules that are far less than "classy"... and that's good. if the setting is going to be realistic, there are going to be different types of people. if I want to play a low-life drunkard, why can't I? if I have a character with a chronic case of red ache because he can't stay away from the ladies of the night, what of it?
I still play the games by the rules. and the rules allow for less than perfect characters. that's why it's called ROLE playing. I want to play a ROLE. I want to do something different.
there are many opportunities for characters to do horrible, despicable things in game. the game can be obscenely violent, and no one cares. but as soon as you enter anything even remotely sexual, everyone gets up in arms. why?
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My 2 cents for what's worth.
You're clown concept as you described seems fine, some of us have day jobs after all, naming him herpes seems vulgar for vulgars sake and adds nothing to the roleplay element of the character, I'm picturing bad joke eel here.
You're "pimp" character on the other hand is problematic, not knowing of course what language you use at the table it feels like you are demonizing or belittling sex trade workers, and contributing to the use of negative language around female characters in a fantasy setting. The pimp trope renforces a gender hierarchy which I believe paizo and pathfinder are interested in moving away from. Sexist jokes are still sexist, even if you don't mean them to be.
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there are many opportunities for characters to do horrible, despicable things in game. the game can be obscenely violent, and no one cares. but as soon as you enter anything even remotely sexual, everyone gets up in arms. why?
Speak for yourself. I care when the violence gets graphic. And because this is a public game, you have to care about what people object to.
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RPGs generally center around combat, and everyone knows that going in (although that's not the same as graphic descriptions of violence or wounds, which should also be left out of play unless everyone has expressed that they're comfortable with it). Different people have different levels of comfort with sexual content, however, and graphic sexual humor or references can be unwelcoming to people who just wanted to roll some dice, or who were looking for a family-friendly atmosphere in which to play with their family. These events are supposed to be fun for everyone, and serve as outreach and community play for the Pathfinder game and brand. If people are behaving in ways likely to make other people uncomfortable enough to decide not to play, their behavior is directly at odds with the whole point of the program.
Your character names would have made me uncomfortable to begin with, and your subsequent treatment of the issue in this thread, if mirrored in real life, would likely, if I were at a table with you at an event, have driven me to the store coordinator to complain. Please don't do that to people who are actually at tables with you.
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I made a post about this before
George R.R. Martin
“I can describe an axe entering a human skull in great explicit detail and no one will blink twice at it. I provide a similar description, just as detailed, of a p***s entering a v****a, and I get letters about it and people swearing off. To my mind this is kind of frustrating, it’s madness. Ultimately, in the history of [the] world, p*****s entering v****s have given a lot of people a lot of pleasure; axes entering skulls, well, not so much.”
Now I find it sophmoric to be up in arms about sex so much. But that is not my right to force it on them during a game we agree to play together.
So although I disagree with how many people taboo sex. I respect their feelings enough to not rub it in their face.
I have one character I would call truely good. I play him as a complete coward.
I hate playing the cliche' hero bit to since I feel is a dead horse in pfs. Although you can do it without upsetting people.
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You're "pimp" character on the other hand is problematic, not knowing of course what language you use at the table it feels like you are demonizing or belittling sex trade workers, and contributing to the use of negative language around female characters in a fantasy setting. The pimp trope renforces a gender hierarchy which I believe paizo and pathfinder are interested in moving away from. Sexist jokes are still sexist, even if you don't mean them to be.
the character does not demonize sex workers or women. it's a mockery of the concept. he is a caricature of a bad stereotype. he's a gnome with a strength of 8. he runs his mouth (as a prankster with oratory performance) and antagonizes the bad guys with debuffs. he's not ACTUALLY a pimp. he thinks he is. he's actually rather pathetic. it's a flawed character with delusions of grandeur. he helps the party (he is a bard), but he is an utter failure at his "trade". I never said anything about being sexist or trivializing women. this character is also never played in a public setting. it is strictly used in PFS home games.
an example of his bardic performance:
"a pirate, history relates
was scuffling with some of his mates
when he slipped on a cutlass
which rendered him nutless
and practically useless on dates"
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paizo has informed me in an email that even my renamed grenadier, [redacted] is inappropriate. I have asked for a clarification as to what will "cross the line of what is acceptable as an alias/avatar name on paizo.com" and wait with bated breath for their definition.
A good rule of thumb would be that if the name is a word for whole or parts of genitalia, a word for something that happens to genitalia, a word for something someone does with their genitalia, or a word for something worn over genitalia, you should avoid it.
If that is unclear, try this exercise:
"Will an average adult, upon hearing this name, immediately be thinking about genitalia?"
If the answer is 'yes' or 'maybe', try a different name.
If that doesn't work, keep changing the name until
I know it's inappropriate
is no longer a true statement.
As an additional thought exercise you can ask yourself "why do I feel the need to make people think about genitalia so badly?"
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I tend to describe the combat I run. Ie Someone attacks Mook and deals him 34 damage taking him to huge amounts of negatives. I might say the Longsword cuts through his leg shearing it off at the hip or something else (with more descriptive). But I try to make sure i tailor it to the table, so If I have kids present I wont get too graphic.
In the case of characters called Herpes and Rumpleforeskin.... No to both.
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So...let me start by saying the following...
We're not all perfect.
Melfer, bro, I'm glad you found a place to discuss your reservations about your own play style and how that might not be in the best interest of growing the campaign.
I'm also glad that you've kept a fairly civil tone in this entire thread. I do, however, want to point out that the feedback you are receiving, which is why you come to a public forum in the first place, is something you are now trying to argue against and justify your position.
Much like Plato's "Cave" metaphor, you'd be better served by having this discussion with yourself over many beers and probably inviting along a good friend, or several.
Let's go with your intent here, however, and assume you mean the best for the game and for the community.
Several points have been made above, none so eloquently put as those by John, that this play style isn't exemplary behavior for the continued growth of PFS, or any community, that seeks to include all.
Again...I'm glad you questioned yourself on this topic, because that is the first step to bettering yourself in the community. To me, that is an important step I want to latch on to and focus upon, instead of the other discussion of "how far is too far".
For now let's assume if that question is asked...it's too far.
I am quite certain more will be said past this, and many more will jump in here with their own opinions...but I kindly ask. Remember the first time you said to yourself "Ghee, am I taking this too far?"
We've all been there, and it is those around us that pull us back from the point of no return. I hope the PFS community sees this as a chance to elicit growth in an individual instead of the opposite.
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this character is also never played in a public setting. it is strictly used in PFS home games.
Then what are you looking for here? We have no way of guessing what the reactions from the people in your home game are like. If you never play him in public, the only thing you need to worry about is the reaction from the people in the private game. If they've told you they don't like it, stop. If they haven't, and you're friends with them, continue. If they haven't, and you're not that tight with them, and you're concerned, ask.
Edit: Changed some language. Inspired by Kyle Elliott's post. The inquiry has value in regards to the introspection it evinces. Proceed.
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Dude,
Look around at some of the other threads. People disagree with each other about a LOT of stuff: handle animal rules, the importance of factions, con boons, cheetohs, dice rolling conventions, which way the toilet paper goes but you've got EVERYONE telling you you've gone too far.
When you get a herd of cats ALL moving away from you you know you've messed up.
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Dude,
Look around at some of the other threads. People disagree with each other about a LOT of stuff: handle animal rules, the importance of factions, con boons, cheetohs, dice rolling conventions, which way the toilet paper goes but you've got EVERYONE telling you you've gone too far.
When you get a herd of cats ALL moving away from you you know you've messed up.
Eh someone has to be the first. The band wagon fallacy is not always right Tiemann square square guy can tell you that. So I am not too keen on that arguement.
Because the taboo placed on sex maybe is an issue he is attempting to statire. That is fine. But PFS is not a venue for that satire. On the show Southpark people are prepared to be offended when they watch that show for their satire. Taking their kids to the game store and surprise having it not so much.
I think the big issue is respecting other people you play with.
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this character is also never played in a public setting. it is strictly used in PFS home games.Then what are you looking for here? We have no way of guessing what the reactions from the people in your home game are like. If you never play him in public, the only thing you need to worry about is the reaction from the people in the private game. If they've told you they don't like it, stop. If they haven't, and you're friends with them, continue. If they haven't, and you're not that tight with them, and you're concerned, ask.
I was merely trying to ascertain whether or not I was breaking an actual rule, or just using poor taste. I'm fine with the latter, not with the former. I am reasonably confident in my ability to tell when people are offended by my sense of humour.
I've changed the names. I think the matter is settled.