So, a recent ravingdork thread got me thinking about the building of BBEGs. I'm going to be starting a campaign soon, and I'm working on a number of possible BBEGs depending on the players choices. It is hard to make a good BBEG, and I've been thinking about one particular aspect:
-How to (not) make a BBEG that makes the players hate the GM rather than the BBEG?
Ravingdork's recent character thread on expanding the chracter of one of his BBEGs made me realise it's possible to hate the GM more than the BBEG. So I'm wondering what other behaviors others have noticed that makes them hate their GM more than the BBEG.
1) Certain kinds of chaotic evil: if the BBEG becomes entirely focused on destroying everything you love (rather than your chars). Ultra Nihilistic BBEGs also fit in here.
2) Uncontrolable negative impacts: if the BBEG can impact you without any chance of you defending yourself.
As far as I can see it, the hatred can come from character behavior (1) or GM behavior (2), and I was wondering if anybody elkse had some interesting examples. I'm looking to be the best GM I can, so I think it's worth analyzing this type of issue.
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From experience, I can tell you one thing *not* to do is to have your BBEG make scripted, unstoppable escapes. It is incredibly infuriating as a player, because it makes you learn that no matter how heroically you may act, it doesn't matter because the BBEG will always get away just for the "sake of the story." That then makes you dread further encounters with the BBEG, not because you fear them but because you know you are going to get frustrated yet again. It does nothing but build player frustration, and that can and will backfire against the GM.
As a GM, there are a few ways to avoid this.
1) Keep the BBEG secret as much as possible, only to be revealed at a time of their choosing.
2) The players have knowledge of the BBEG, but the BBEG acts through agents/minions, and so can avoid direct confrontations as much as possible.
3) If you must have the BBEG encounter the PCs early, be prepared for the PCs to win. That means having a backup BBEG if yours gets killed/captured.
That's good kryptic, I've had the escape tihng happen to me twice before and it really pissed me off at the time.
Ok, so let's add "unavoidable escape" to the list.
I have two true BBEGs in my current campaign that I run. One they have run across already, and presents a direct threat against them, but they have not discovered much about him, and so have only been encountering his agents.
The second BBEG is, to be honest, the real true threat. They know nothing about him yet, but will if they personally confront the first BBEG.
The kicker is that what the first BBEG is doing is trying to counter the second BBEG, and this thing is definitely not what the PCs want to happen but is one of the only ways to stop the second BBEG. So they will need to make a choice; deal with the devil you know, or take your chances with evil that has and needs no reason.
It's all about motivation. You want your BBEG to feel real, to be a part of the world, and for players to know that he's reacting to them in appropriate ways.
Hating the GM can enter in when it becomes obvious his choices are being made only to influence the PCs, or when dues ex is used to keep the BBEG being a threat, even after the PC's should have beat him. It's even worse if the PC's aren't allowed to respond to the BBEG actions at all. I've seen some GMs give their BBEG an unfair, impossible to overcome, edge in the interest of creating a grand cinematic scene, but you can't forget that this is a game, and the PCs need to be able to react accordingly if they want to make an effort to stop the BBEG.
While I have had disapointing BBEGs before they have never made me "hate the GM" not sure I follow. Now scripted unstoppable escapes, unstoppable non-savable abilities used on the PCs I guess those could be things that are annoying but would they really make you hate your GM?
I guess it can depend on how/how much you are invested in the game itself. I've seen a few threads here of people being particularly angry (and I mean angry, not just frustrated) with their GMs. And more specifically, the thread ravingdork started recently (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qjn9?How-would-you-roleplay-SataerSyrania) a lot of people suggested personalities & traits that, when looking at the behavior it engendered from the BBEG suggested, would make me hate the GM more than the character. So I extrapolated that there must be other ways to frustrate players (I can hardly believe I'm unique). So I'm looking for specific points of frustration others have experienced, so that I can avoid doing those things as GM.
I'm thinking BBEO (BBE-organizations) can avoid the "one single BBEG" problem you suggested kryptic.
I think the main theme (from the GM-problem side) is probably "anything that makes you lose all control".
However, I am also looking for specific character behaviors as well if anybody has any.
If the PCs don't hate the BBEG, don't get frustrated by him, don't fear him, then you're not doing it right as the GM.
Also, I think there is a tendency for GMs to become too attached to their villains. It's understandable because you probably spent more time on their backstory and motivations than all the players combined, but at the end of the day they are designed to confront the heroes, and this game heavily favors the players. You have to accept that the villain will almost certainly die, and almost certainly not in a way as dignified as you imagined.
If the PCs don't hate the BBEG, don't get frustrated by him, don't fear him, then you're not doing it right as the GM.
I have no doubt that strong emotion concerning the BBEG is certainly essential; I just think it's better focused on the BBEG than on the GM.
A good way to keep your players from trying to kill a BBEG is to make sure there are significant worldly consequences if the BBEG is just outright killed. Be it as simple as political destabilization or as heavy-handed as reality falling apart.
If your players know that killing the guy now will make bad things happen, they'll hold off and try to find other ways to try to foil them.
1) Certain kinds of chaotic evil: if the BBEG becomes entirely focused on destroying everything you love (rather than your chars). Ultra Nihilistic BBEGs also fit in here.
2) Uncontrolable negative impacts: if the BBEG can impact you without any chance of you defending yourself.
As far as I can see it, the hatred can come from character behavior (1) or GM behavior (2), and I was wondering if anybody elkse had some interesting examples. I'm looking to be the best GM I can, so I think it's worth analyzing this type of issue.
First, I thought of that demon-sorcerer thing as flavourful, though I hated it being a halfling. However I really agree with 2). If the players get no chance to defend themselves against certain attacks this can really be annoying.
A few things I would consider:
1) Create something you consider a cool villain, then you can get behind playing him. However aoid the Mary Sue effect in the end your villain is supposed to go down, maybe after facing the heroes multiple times.
2) Don't bend the rules, because you fear your villain will get mauled by the characters. Instead have the villain be well prepared and have him have a reasonable backup plan. The PCs can still catch him, but his escape plan is pretty damn nasty.
If you think this would still make the players frustrated leave him scarred, physically or mentally from the encounter with their characters.
3) Which kind of game are you playing? A villain in a Horror Game might be unbeatable via direct confrontation, the endboss of an oldschool 'Tomb of Horros'-style meatgrinder might have totally unfair mechanically broken abillities, while the standard BBEG should be beatable in an epic encounter.
4)Having him escape too often might get annoying. A few times is ok, but the players should still be able to believe: This time we get him.
5) Mechanically countering the players(Immunities, Resistances) to the point they can't use their main abillities against him. If you got a Lich(immune to mind effrecting) against an Enchantment Wizard, one could put some mooks our Wizard could charm and send against their master(maybe a Giant, who guards the Liches door).
6) A preplanned battle is better than raw power. Fill the battlefield with pits, difficult terrain etc. and create a battleplan around this(bullrush the character into the pit).
When it comes to your BBEG meeting your players early, do it where they'd least expect it. Several spells can block alignment detects, but it's better to have the BBEG in a position where the players won't try and question their methods. Maybe he's the kindly deacon of a church, or the head of a guild who's been particularly helpful to them (using them to continue his plans). These kind of BBEGs are truly memorable, especially when the betrayal happens. Current GM used this on us and I gotta say, it came out really good.
It also depends a lot on your players. I have a couple players at my table who NEVER get immersed, no matter what motivation of theirs I try to hit on. Since they never get immersed, then they never care WHO the BBEG is or anything.
I have another couple players however who seem to at least enjoy story and plot. For them I've looked at their characters and they way they play them, then tailored the BBEG to be a good contrast.
One guy is playing a magus with dragon's blood in his veins with the intention of going sorcerer and then Dragon Disciple; for that reason this first BBEG is a kobold. Also the magus is all about personal freedoms; the BBEG employs a slaver ring.
The other immersive type is a dungeoneering ranger with kobolds as his first favored enemy. He abhors torture or unnecessary bloodshed. For this reason my players have just come to find out that the kobold BBEG tortures captive slaves and flays them alive, using their living flesh to create superior velum for scrolls, spellbooks and other writings.
In time they will also come to find the BBEG, the "Scritedra Meiger" or scroll master, is privately aligning several other powers into his control so as to challenge the kobold chieftain, Nalak-Tha for control of the kobold holdings in the nearby megadungeon.
My goal then, since this is a monthly game w/the potential for the PCs to forget from session to session who they're supposed to hate, is to continually add in-story and background elements reflecting the BBEG's evil. Occasionally the party might see a bunch of slaves being carted off to the dungeon as they're returning; perhaps they'll meet a haunt in the dungeon reflecting one of the torture victims; I've even got an NPC who's vowed vengeance on him.
The party has to be motivated to hate the villain. As Al Capone might say, they need..."enthusiasms... enthusiasms..."
A lot of what is being said is fairly useful; however, I am specifically looking for pitfalls to avoid, rather than solutions. A few things you mentionned I3igAl are definitly on my mind (namely, the expectations of the players).
I'm also not trying to "keep a BBEG alive"; if the players defeat it, good for them. I tend to think that without an extremely compellin BBEG, they shouldnt be the "centre" of the campaign (for example: in the one I'm starting soon, the "center" of the campaign is defending a dwarven city. This can involve a number of different BBEGs (depending on who the players find interesting/anger), but the central focus is always the city).
So, removing control arbitrarily from players seems to be big no-no #1.
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Ok after reading RDs thread it appears there is a point where a BBEG wont provide an enjoyable game for you. That can be based on either the character itself or GM behavior. Does that sound about right?
Those are two different scales that will vary person to person. There are hardly any BBEG character types that wouldnt be enjoyable for me. In fact, I cant even think of any. GM behavior though is an entirely different ball game. As long as the GM plays fair and doesnt get too carried away with their story we should be all good.
The best BBEG I ever built was one the party didn't hate. He also wasn't evil.
Note this was a 3E game.
Paladin, who had aided the group many times. They eventually found out that a religious organization, the same deity as that paladin, was behind most of what they had been dealing with. And the paladin was leading it.
Both sides were operating for the greater good. That paladin and the paladin in the party had both kept to their alignments. Both sides were fighting with the backing of their deity. Both sides had goals that could not succeed as long as the other side pursued their goal.
Enemy paladin gave them rooms to rest, food, etc. so they would be at full strength for the fight. They accepted and, in turn, when the fight was drawing to a close and he surrendered, they accepted his surrender.
Players loved it.
Ok after reading RDs thread it appears there is a point where a BBEG wont provide an enjoyable game for you. That can be based on either the character itself or GM behavior. Does that sound about right?
Those are two different scales that will vary person to person. There are hardly any BBEG character types that wouldnt be enjoyable for me. In fact, I cant even think of any. GM behavior though is an entirely different ball game. As long as the GM plays fair and doesnt get too carried away with their story we should be all good.
You've pretty much seem to have understand my issue; and I know certain people dont get bugged much by certain characters. GM issues are definitly significant, and I've heard/experienced a lot before so thanks to other's contributions, I think it's fairly easy to define.
However, character types can be more iffy, since our reaction changes so much from person to person. I tend to get very immersed (perhaps too much) in my own games, which means a lot of my own personality is shown in my characters (they are generally built in consequence). I also know why I play (self-empowerement, doing things I cant do in RL) which is why certain types of games (like call of cthulhu for example) simply dont fit my personality type. So feeling like a BBEG is destroying everything my char has goes against MY kind of play. I am wondering if others (with other types of play) have had similar reactions to BBEGs before.
@Mark hoover: as usual you give good advice, and I should definitly adapt different elements so that each player gets their fill. The difficulty of playing with strangers though is that I have NOCLUE what their motivations are. Might make them take the brokenzenith quiz. However I believe any strong emotion (and not necessarily hate) is what's needed. Otherwise the "magnificent bastard" trope wouldnt be so successful.
Yes it's really important to avoid things like "unstoppable escapes", "fixed unavoidable events", "extra HP's at the last moment to make the battle more difficult/last longer", "that one cool npc that always saves the day" and anything like that, that might frustrate the players.
As long as you don't "cheat" and everything "makes sense" (even in the end...) you should be ok.
From my experience as a DM/GM, the best villains,that players LOVE to hate and don't hate the DM/GM for making them, are usually the ones that manage to pull off something "big, bad and clever" on the players, without them noticing it until the very end, or close to it. And IMO that doesn't necessarily mean combat (at least in the beginning). In-game trickery can be fun if played right.
My best "BBEG" (big bad evil girl!) was a succubus that managed to do a lot of horrible stuff through bluff/disguise/stealth etc. and even convinced the players to do a lot too. Really, these ladies have a LOT of potential.
Apart from playing with people you know for a long time, and knowing what they like and not, most players hate the same things more or less. Some players ignore the plot and only care for battles, others try to "win the oscar" and others are somewhere between these two. The one thing they all have trouble with ,i think , is not being fair and honest towards them. New players will show their motives sooner or later, something that can be hastened through conversation.
If your players are truly in sync with their characters with total game immersion and they no longer view the gm as someone sitting at the other end of the table true hatred can be achieved for a villain. Its all about eliciting an emotional response from the players, I know this can be done because I've been in the players seat feeling that way. My DM on 2 occasions over the years with 2 of his villains have truly made me despise them. Something about them made me want to show them no mercy and my jaw would tighten every time they were brought up in conversation. I'm not sure what he did to get me to react that way but that is what you want from the players. That raw reaction of just pure despise.
The thing about the BBEG escaping is not meant to be an absolute. Yes, he should be clever enough to attempt (and possibly succeed at) getting away. But his escape method should only be as smart as he is. If your players do something that you and/or your BBEG anticipated, he probably gets away. But if they do something totally unexpected that he could not reasonably anticipate, let them nail him.
Also -- keep your plans flexible. If your PCs kill the BBEG too early, have the BBEG's previously unknown boss waiting in the wings to continue carrying out the grander scheme of which your BBEG's plot was just a small part. The trick is to strike a balance between keeping the players challenged and acknowledging the impact of what they have already accomplished.
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on this note, How would you (as players) feel about a 1 time no save ability for a game. (at the point it happens, your a level 15ish party, against a level 20 anti paladin.. in his home (or castle as it were).
as on topic, I have, before in games of undead fighting and shenangians, lost a semi-BBEG(irl) only to have her come back twice (once as a vampire, and again as a ghost in service to the main BBEG) with stronger powers, stats ect. The PCs enjoyed (specifically the paladin and cleric) finally ERADICATING her soul.
as long as you have a semi logical reason a BBEG can come back, and eventually (remember to keep the amount of times of "death" small) finally actually KILL them. It can make for a good little thing.
From experience, I can tell you one thing *not* to do is to have your BBEG make scripted, unstoppable escapes.
This.
A million times this.It happens once, the BBEG getting away at the brink of death or in the nick of time? Okay.
It happens twice? Frustrating.
Three times? Man what.
Four times? *Fists curling, knuckles popping*
EVERY TIME?! *Tableflip*
Again, I thank you all for excellent examples of well made BBEGs, those that players loved or loved to hate.
But I'm really hoping to see examples of "bad" BBEGs, that dissapointed/frustrated people in the wrong way (made them loose interest in the game, hate the GM, etc.). Apparently that's rarer than I thought.
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The worst thing I ever saw a GM do with a BBEG was to insist on him completing his gloating speech no matter what the players did. That is too much of a cartoonish villain move. If your players attach the BBEG before he finishes talking, stop the talk and start the fight.
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on this note, How would you (as players) feel about a 1 time no save ability for a game. (at the point it happens, your a level 15ish party, against a level 20 anti paladin.. in his home (or castle as it were).
as on topic, I have, before in games of undead fighting and shenangians, lost a semi-BBEG(irl) only to have her come back twice (once as a vampire, and again as a ghost in service to the main BBEG) with stronger powers, stats ect. The PCs enjoyed (specifically the paladin and cleric) finally ERADICATING her soul.
as long as you have a semi logical reason a BBEG can come back, and eventually (remember to keep the amount of times of "death" small) finally actually KILL them. It can make for a good little thing.
Be careful with no-saves! Remember, the players have been with their characters for a long time at this point - to lose one without having any say in the matter would be unthinkable. What are the consequences of the no-save?
Also, one way about it is to have the players choose amongst themselves to suffer it. For example, in order to get past a certain door, one of them has to drink a potion with unknown effects (a la Harry Potter). At least the players get to try out alternatives, argue who should take it, etc. That would feel a LOT less cheap than "you enter the room, the statue zaps one of you (no save), bad stuff happens."
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BBEG's the players hated?
The BBEG turned out to be faking it and isn't actually evil. The BBEG was hired by a PC's mother to fake villany so the PC would get off their duff and do something with their life. Every bit of evil the PCs have countered that were supposedly part of his plan were just evil items the BBEG found out were going to happen and took credit for. There was no actual evil plan.
I guess I'm not explaining myself properly. In a game with a lighter tone, the whole mother thing might be quite fitting.
I'm giving myslf a headache trying to get a proper explanation... basically the players should hate ( or at least have stron gemotion concerning) the BBEG, but it shouldnt make the players hate the GM/the game. I'm looking for the second case. So as to best avoid it.
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BBEG's the players hated?
The BBEG turned out to be faking it and isn't actually evil. The BBEG was hired by a PC's mother to fake villany so the PC would get off their duff and do something with their life. Every bit of evil the PCs have countered that were supposedly part of his plan were just evil items the BBEG found out were going to happen and took credit for. There was no actual evil plan.
Hah! That's hilarious. How did the final reveal go?
Although, I could totally envision a final showdown of the PCs against the mother (read in the voice of Archer): "Mother, why did you turn yourself into a demon?" "Because you always... wanted to be... a hero..." *dies* "Motherrrrrr!"
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I actually hate when BBEG aren't played as smart and cunning as they should be.
Allow me to explicate. In particular with wizards whom are the main antagonist I would actually be quite annoyed if the wizard didn't escape several times. Or rather, if the party managed to corner the wizard relatively easily. A sufficiently high level evil wizard should be prepared at all times to make his escape to his own personal demi-plane. Leaving behind constructs, and elementals, and summoned creatures galore. When you finally find him it should be a simulacrum. At least the first time. When you kill him, he should return in his cloned body. Revealing himself at the most inopportune time for the party. Anything less and the wizard isn't using the simple tools that every PC wizard is using. It's not some abstract usage of spells combined in a crazy way to foil the party. It's the intended usage of simple spells.
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on this note, How would you (as players) feel about a 1 time no save ability for a game. (at the point it happens, your a level 15ish party, against a level 20 anti paladin.. in his home (or castle as it were).
as on topic, I have, before in games of undead fighting and shenangians, lost a semi-BBEG(irl) only to have her come back twice (once as a vampire, and again as a ghost in service to the main BBEG) with stronger powers, stats ect. The PCs enjoyed (specifically the paladin and cleric) finally ERADICATING her soul.
as long as you have a semi logical reason a BBEG can come back, and eventually (remember to keep the amount of times of "death" small) finally actually KILL them. It can make for a good little thing.
Be careful with no-saves! Remember, the players have been with their characters for a long time at this point - to lose one without having any say in the matter would be unthinkable. What are the consequences of the no-save?
Also, one way about it is to have the players choose amongst themselves to suffer it. For example, in order to get past a certain door, one of them has to drink a potion with unknown effects (a la Harry Potter). At least the players get to try out alternatives, argue who should take it, etc. That would feel a LOT less cheap than "you enter the room, the statue zaps one of you (no save), bad stuff happens."
its a simple modified Geas spell. They would have to go about collecting items for the BBEG so he could finish his goal. (along the way there are ways to "break" the spell though) and just so happens one or two of the items alone could be helpful in the BBEGs downfall. (note, not all of these items are in holy places/hidden long forgotten caves)
Again, I thank you all for excellent examples of well made BBEGs, those that players loved or loved to hate.
But I'm really hoping to see examples of "bad" BBEGs, that disappointed/frustrated people in the wrong way (made them loose interest in the game, hate the GM, etc.). Apparently that's rarer than I thought.
The repetitive ones are not "exciting" for sure...His daily evil activities should include a variety of cruelties etc. otherwise players can feel a little bored.
Being very well known to the PCs from the beginning of the story, can lead to either way (excitement/boredom) after some time. Players should find out new things about him/her over the game and maybe newer events might make them reconsider some stuff.
The "i will always outsmart you" element should have a limit. Just because the players are discussing their strategies in front of you, doesn't mean that the BBEG is ALWAYS hearing them and is well prepared.
When "his time comes", let him go down and be defeated.
Worst experience i had with a villain (DM) was back in 3.5.
We were fighting against a "clawed undead" thingy with the spell-stitched template (or maybe this was added the last moment by our DM), which , considering its CR, had an enormous amount of HPs and other cool stuff.
We had realized by that point, that our DM would always add a few HP's to the BBEGs, only to make the battle last longer and raise the suspense. I, as a heal-bot/buffer cleric was always side by side with the Paladin of the party, having cast "shield other" on him. After a very long fight and when he was about to die , he "used" vampiric touch, which (what a surprise) was a crit too, and he managed to survive quite longer.
The thing is i (as well as the rest of the party) was too low and i died after the attack.
I will NEVER forget the look of that DM the moment i told him.
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its a simple modified Geas spell. They would have to go about collecting items for the BBEG so he could finish his goal. (along the way there are ways to "break" the spell though) and just so happens one or two of the items alone could be helpful in the BBEGs downfall. (note, not all of these items are in holy places/hidden long forgotten caves)
See, that sets off a big flashing red alarm bell in my head. You're literally telling the PCs "you have to go do this now." Regardless of whether they can turn it around on the BBEG or not, a no-save Gaes is the most heavy-handed way of going about a Maguffin quest possible.
I would highly, highly recommend you find a different way of getting your PCs to collect the things. Could be as simple as holding the PCs' families hostage, or as complex as sending a minion in undercover to "help them defeat that evil dude," who takes off with the artifacts at the last second. (Maybe then he betrays the BBEG, proving he was on the PCs' side the whole time? Your call.)
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I guess I'm not explaining myself properly. In a game with a lighter tone, the whole mother thing might be quite fitting.
I'm giving myslf a headache trying to get a proper explanation... basically the players should hate ( or at least have stron gemotion concerning) the BBEG, but it shouldnt make the players hate the GM/the game. I'm looking for the second case. So as to best avoid it.
Folks keep falling back to mechanics because they tend to be closer to objective talking points then what you are looking for. One mans joss whedon is another man's uwe bol. There isnt a general idea to avoid because the target moves person to person.
I guess I'm not explaining myself properly. In a game with a lighter tone, the whole mother thing might be quite fitting.
I'm giving myslf a headache trying to get a proper explanation... basically the players should hate ( or at least have stron gemotion concerning) the BBEG, but it shouldnt make the players hate the GM/the game. I'm looking for the second case. So as to best avoid it.
Are you certain you are using the right standards of measurement?
People have a nasty habit of liking a truly detestable villain. Just ask the Sephiroth fanclub sometime. Or ask Romanians their opinion of Vlad the Impaler. And when you get the type of player that likes a truly despicable villain that serves the campaign well, you run into a problem that you can't make a villain they hate without making them hate you or the campaign. My example with the mother bit was a case of having that kind of group. You actually need to try to gauge how the players feel on this, even if they are complete strangers.
I don't think you can get the answer you are looking for because humans, even roleplayers, are too varied for the set of standards you are using to actually be helpful.
BBEG's the players hated?
The BBEG turned out to be faking it and isn't actually evil. The BBEG was hired by a PC's mother to fake villany so the PC would get off their duff and do something with their life. Every bit of evil the PCs have countered that were supposedly part of his plan were just evil items the BBEG found out were going to happen and took credit for. There was no actual evil plan.
Hah! That's hilarious. How did the final reveal go?
Although, I could totally envision a final showdown of the PCs against the mother (read in the voice of Archer): "Mother, why did you turn yourself into a demon?" "Because you always... wanted to be... a hero..." *dies* "Motherrrrrr!"
The PCs walked in and spotted the mother who had hired the BBEG there.
It started like this:
PC: "Mom?" (to villain) "How dare you take my mother hostage!"
Mother: "Um, son, there's something I need to tell you..."
As each player became convinced, they gave me the most horrible death glare you can imagine. It was like a gaze attack version of Power Word: Kill.
They did laugh about it later, though, but right that moment they were not seeing the humor.
What you're saying MagusJanus kinda dissapoints me; that there's a need to make certain players hate you/the game kinda goes against the kind of game I want to play... so I'll have to be careful about that. I have no shame telling someone to leave/leaving myself if there's too much disagreement between how we want to play (the GM is supposed to have fun too).
However, the whole mother thing is HILARIOUS. On the moment I would have reacted the same way as your players, but it would definitly have become funny after a while.
Edit: however, there must be some kind of line, because despite everything, your players still wanted to play with you, which I would count as a good step below hating the GM/the game. Either of those things would make me quit pretty quickly; my intellectual masochism is focused on other things.
What you're saying MagusJanus kinda dissapoints me; that there's a need to make certain players hate you/the game kinda goes against the kind of game I want to play... so I'll have to be careful about that. I have no shame telling someone to leave/leaving myself if there's too much disagreement between how we want to play (the GM is supposed to have fun too).
I think it all depends on the players. I've run vampire BBEGs that players absolutely did not like out of character. They disliked that the vampire always escaped by turning to gas and getting away. They wanted a more straight-forward fight that they could finish.
Does that make vampires bad BBEGs? No, just that group did not like them.
If you're looking for generic "might be bad ideas" here are some from my experience:
-They get away all of the time, without the player characters having any chance of stopping them (or, if they do have a chance, it is not obvious to the group, so it might as well be no chance, from their point of view.)
-BBEGs engage in long dialog or special actions that cannot be interrupted. As the GM, you might want to do some kind of info dump on your players from the BBEG, but often times, they don't like it.
-BBEGs that are incredibly powerful to the point that the PCs cannot hurt them. The BBEG either captures the PCs or in someway makes them unable to do anything. Players tend to dislike this because it takes away their ability to affect the story and also breaks immersion if there's no good reason that the BBEG wouldn't just kill the PCs.
-The BBEG is someone they've known for a long time, but there were no clues as to the character's evil intentions (or, if there were clues, they didn't pick up on any of them.)
-The BBEG returns after being killed/defeated/etc. Returning BBEGs tend to irk players as lazy storytelling.
All of these could potentially break immersion and make the players dislike the game or the GM rather than the BBEG. But if you play enough games, that's always going to happen. Some player's and GM's styles just don't mesh.
Best advice - know what you as the GM like and find players that share similar interests.
Ok so you're looking for ways to not have your players hate you and instead turn their rage on the BBEG? You're also looking for examples of bad BBEGs? Look no further than classic comic books.
How many times, between the 1960's to the 80's, did Dr Doom come back to life, have an ace up his sleeve, etc in regards to the FF? Sure, it might make for a good read or an old movie serial, but to play? So from Doom, here's some don'ts:
Don't be smarter than the players EVERY time
Don't ALWAYS escape
Don't always have a perfect foil for EVERY player's powers
Every time my players have said I sucked as a GM (there's been a lot sadly, but I'm working on it!) it's because they felt trapped, nullified or otherwise didn't matter to the world we're playing in. Remember: THEY'RE the heroes.
Finally, if your players are the types who really get into story and character, another minor thing that makes them non-plussed w/your BBEG is the guy's personality. No one cares if "Goblin Boss" steals some gold because he can and then when the players catch up to him Boss snarls "Fools" and then full melees until dead.
However if they find out the creature's name is Volthryx, he was mentally enhanced by a wizard and he's deemed that humanity is a plague, so he's stolen money in order to sow desperation for the sheer pleasure of watching desperate folk sink to the level of common goblins and, in the end, who's the REAL villain...then you might get their attention.
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its a simple modified Geas spell. They would have to go about collecting items for the BBEG so he could finish his goal. (along the way there are ways to "break" the spell though) and just so happens one or two of the items alone could be helpful in the BBEGs downfall. (note, not all of these items are in holy places/hidden long forgotten caves)See, that sets off a big flashing red alarm bell in my head. You're literally telling the PCs "you have to go do this now." Regardless of whether they can turn it around on the BBEG or not, a no-save Gaes is the most heavy-handed way of going about a Maguffin quest possible.
I would highly, highly recommend you find a different way of getting your PCs to collect the things. Could be as simple as holding the PCs' families hostage, or as complex as sending a minion in undercover to "help them defeat that evil dude," who takes off with the artifacts at the last second. (Maybe then he betrays the BBEG, proving he was on the PCs' side the whole time? Your call.)
not "now" but, not really later. perhaps a small explanation, The PCs are part of an order, order was attacked, lost a big fight due to several reasons, They would eventually make there way to the fortress (already decided on that route they have) Its part of the story progression, and while it may be a bit of a "force to do x" a few forced things (among a great many unforced) are sometimes called for imo to actually ADVANCE the thing lol.(specially in this group) I can allow them saves, but the saves would be... rather high (mechanically) I understand your view, but the "quest" is wording very vaguely (overconfidence of the BBEG) such as you, "You must go acquire these items, and within the month bring them to me" does it still seem really bad?
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Oh, yeah. One thing players really, really hate?
When the lich's phylactery turns out to be the lich's spellbook.
On this subject, I keep thinking of Handsome Jack from Borderlands 2. Loved the world and how it was presented to me via the game, but oh man did I hate me some Handsome Jack.
Two words: "Butt Stallion"
Oh, yeah. One thing players really, really hate?
When the lich's phylactery turns out to be the lich's spellbook.
Why? Why would that be worse than any other object in general?
I assume a lich would have their phylactery equally protected with magic no matter what form it took.
What I would be annoyed with (yet satisfied with at the same time) is if said lich were smart enough to have placed their phylactery on their own personal permanent demiplane.
What you're saying MagusJanus kinda dissapoints me; that there's a need to make certain players hate you/the game kinda goes against the kind of game I want to play... so I'll have to be careful about that. I have no shame telling someone to leave/leaving myself if there's too much disagreement between how we want to play (the GM is supposed to have fun too).
However, the whole mother thing is HILARIOUS. On the moment I would have reacted the same way as your players, but it would definitly have become funny after a while.
Edit: however, there must be some kind of line, because despite everything, your players still wanted to play with you, which I would count as a good step below hating the GM/the game. Either of those things would make me quit pretty quickly; my intellectual masochism is focused on other things.
Well, I think a better focus is if the players find them to be a good villain or not; if they players agree that you made a very good villain who fits the campaign well, then you've done your job. And then, whether they love the villain because he's evil or hate him because he's evil, they'll still enjoy the campaign.
I am glad people found the mother thing hilarious ^^
I will admit that the group pretty much had it to where you had to screw up badly to get kicked out. We also rotated GMs, so either way I wasn't GMing the next campaign. When it was again my turn, they had already forgiven me for that campaign.
Oh, yeah. One thing players really, really hate?
When the lich's phylactery turns out to be the lich's spellbook.
Why? Why would that be worse than any other object in general?
I assume a lich would have their phylactery equally protected with magic no matter what form it took.
What I would be annoyed with (yet satisfied with at the same time) is if said lich were smart enough to have placed their phylactery on their own personal permanent demiplane.
The spellbook generally can be far worse because of the party wizard wanting to copy spells from it. And you would expect it to be magical to protect it, so a few protection spells mixed in with it being a phylactery... And, well, no wizard expects a lich to suddenly appear next to them while they're in the middle of copying spells from that lich's spellbook.
The spellbook generally can be far worse because of the party wizard wanting to copy spells from it. And you would expect it to be magical to protect it, so a few protection spells mixed in with it being a phylactery... And, well, no wizard expects a lich to suddenly appear next to them while they're in the middle of copying spells from that lich's spellbook.Oh, yeah. One thing players really, really hate?
When the lich's phylactery turns out to be the lich's spellbook.
Why? Why would that be worse than any other object in general?
I assume a lich would have their phylactery equally protected with magic no matter what form it took.
What I would be annoyed with (yet satisfied with at the same time) is if said lich were smart enough to have placed their phylactery on their own personal permanent demiplane.
Ehh...I dunno. Greater Arcane Sight will make pretty quick work of determining which object is the lich phylactery and what protections are placed upon it. Seems like it would be an obvious thing to have a scroll of post lich fight to sift through whatever magic items are present so you can clearly identify the phylactery.
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not "now" but, not really later. perhaps a small explanation, The PCs are part of an order, order was attacked, lost a big fight due to several reasons, They would eventually make there way to the fortress (already decided on that route they have) Its part of the story progression, and while it may be a bit of a "force to do x" a few forced things (among a great many unforced) are sometimes called for imo to actually ADVANCE the thing lol.(specially in this group) I can allow them saves, but the saves would be... rather high (mechanically) I understand your view, but the "quest" is wording very vaguely (overconfidence of the BBEG) such as you, "You must go acquire these items, and within the month bring them to me" does it still seem really bad?
You know your players better than I do, but yeah, still pretty bad. At the very least, you should have them be cursed or something with the items as a cure. With the Geas, it's simply "You're gathering these. DM says so." Removing players entirely from the major decision-making of the game is not generally a good idea - they should always (appear to) have alternatives.