Depends. Oklahoma won't be making the decision; it will be made by a Federal court. Alabama tried something similar a number of years ago. A Federal judge ordered the statue removed. When the Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court defied the order, he was overruled unanimously by order of the other justices on that court, and Chief Justice Moore was later disbarred for willful contempt of a federal court order.
I would be very surprised if the SCOTUS allowed this monument to continue to stand.
Same thing happened in Texas in '05 and it WAS deemed constitutional.
I live in Oklahoma. I'm not Christian. I have friends of various denominations and beliefs. Nobody has ever told me I'm wrong, they have church and mind their own business, and we have our own various beliefs.
Nobody has ever really bothered me about it. When pressed I don't try to tell them they are wrong simply that I believe differently, but I believe that everybody has a right to believe what they want. They think about it for a moment, and then nod their head and then we change the subject to football.
How 'bout them Sooners?
I wasn't trying to make a blanket statement about all of Oklahoma. Though I'm not from Oklahoma myself, I am from Texas, the D/FW area to be more specific. My grandfather is from Tulsa, and my cousin went to OU. Obviously some places and people are better than others. You obviously have mostly dealt with rational people, and that's good. But there are a bunch of religious nuts from there who get nuttier when a camera or microphone gets stuck in their face.
Thou shall not covet is kinda a pre-stop to larceny, and a whole bunch of other gimme! related stuff.
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I wasn't trying to make a blanket statement about all of Oklahoma. Though I'm not from Oklahoma myself, I am from Texas, the D/FW area to be more specific. My grandfather is from Tulsa, and my cousin went to OU. Obviously some places and people are better than others. You obviously have mostly dealt with rational people, and that's good. But there are a bunch of religious nuts from there who get nuttier when a camera or microphone gets stuck in their face.Don't worry yourself none. I wasn't taken offense, more just making a statement of fact. Heck I'd rather people keep looking at us that way simply so they won't bother us here. Too many east and west coasters coming out here these days for my tastes. Soccer Moms with their macrobiotic nut loaves and whatnot.
I swear she was trying to poison us.
LOL
Hippies have a missionary program too.
Awesome, but I suspect the point will be lost on the intended recipients.
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Separation of religion from state is a strong, inherent part of democracy. Democracy is composed of two equally important parts - the formal democracy (laws, the composition of the government and other state funded public institutions, etc.) and the ideological democracy (principles, guiding rules, philosophical backbone, etc.). Out of these, the ideas that all men are born free of religion and are not forced to adhere to any religion in their state is a strong one.
Those are limits that we impose on democracy to prevent the tyranny of the majority. They're a good idea and have been included in most government democracies that I know of, but aren't an inherent part of democracy.
The tyranny of the many can be just as bad as the tyranny of a few.
Thou shall not covet is kinda a pre-stop to larceny, and a whole bunch of other gimme! related stuff.
Our entire society is built on coveting. I WANT YOUR STUFF! I will go work overtime to get it!
The tyranny of the many can be just as bad as the tyranny of a few.
Well said.
Separation of religion from state is a strong, inherent part of democracy. Democracy is composed of two equally important parts - the formal democracy (laws, the composition of the government and other state funded public institutions, etc.) and the ideological democracy (principles, guiding rules, philosophical backbone, etc.). Out of these, the ideas that all men are born free of religion and are not forced to adhere to any religion in their state is a strong one.Those are limits that we impose on democracy to prevent the tyranny of the majority. They're a good idea and have been included in most government democracies that I know of, but aren't an inherent part of democracy.
The tyranny of the many can be just as bad as the tyranny of a few.
Honestly, I'm guessing there is a cultural difference here in how the 2 of you define democracy. I wouldn't harp on it.
Taking religion out of it, the 10 commandments are at least law-related.
Er...
1) I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other God before me.
2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing in heaven above, or things which are in the earth beneath.
3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
4) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5) Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
I'd agree that 6-10 are "law-related", though as people have mentioned, proving 'covetousness' in a court of law might be kind of hard...
It's kind of hard to avoid interpreting (1) and (3) as religious. (2) is a ban on art, so I can't argue it's not law-related. (4) is definitely a labor law. But (5) is another one that's hard to call law-related.
I think the bbq one is in the redneck 10 commandments.
Well I reckon that depends on the type of terrorist, don't you? Then again, most ain't very rational people.Would Terrorist kill Satanists because they are Christian. Or, are Satanists
not Christian?
Good point. Let's assume they are the kind that only kill Christians.
Then will this stand?
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Are you SURE there isn't one in there about barbecue? It seems to be at every church related function.Taking religion out of it, the 10 commandments are at least law-related.Er...
1) I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other God before me.
2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing in heaven above, or things which are in the earth beneath.
3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
4) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5) Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.I'd agree that 6-10 are "law-related", though as people have mentioned, proving 'covetousness' in a court of law might be kind of hard...
It's kind of hard to avoid interpreting (1) and (3) as religious. (2) is a ban on art, so I can't argue it's not law-related. (4) is definitely a labor law. But (5) is another one that's hard to call law-related.
That's #7 1/2. I omitted it because it's clearly law-related: BBQ is required by law south of the Mason-Dixon line.
So when can I expect my statue of the great and almighty Bruce Campbell to be erected in Oklahoma.I'd prefer Morgan Freeman.
Oklahomian could also consider making statue of Argaron.
:O
Sir, I declare holy war on you!
1) I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other God before me.
By including this god is telling us there are other gods, and we can't have
them before him.I wonder what these other gods do for a living?
.
1) I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other God before me.By including this god is telling us there are other gods, and we can't have
them before him.I wonder what they do for a living?
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Host barbecues?
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Host barbecues?1) I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other God before me.By including this god is telling us there are other gods, and we can't have
them before him.I wonder what they do for a living?
.
Is this an intentional reference to hell?
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My intent would not be to sneak a 10 commandments statue past anyone.
I just wondered how far the seperation had to be, and if there was any rationale to it, or just a flat "No not ever".
The 10 commandments? No, not ever.
I remember going to Catholic school and being told that the reason we had 10 amendments was to echo the 10 commandments. Which is ignorant of the fact that originally there were 12 amendments (only 10 of which were successfully ratified in the original go) and the 10 commandments were cherry-picked out of hundreds from Jewish law when Christianity was being codified by Rome, because Rome had a thing about the number 10.
I was also told that our code of laws stems directly from that (which is rubbish anyway) since we outlaw murder and theft. Let's not mention that the 10 commandments has no condemnation against rape, or other really nasty things.
The point is, the 10 commandments have nothing to do with the evolution of our legal code, except perhaps as an appendix about antiquated religious laws.
TL;DR- The FIRST COMMANDMENT is "You shall have no other gods before me," which is about the most conspicuously religious law you can have. All the good, relevant stuff about not killing each other is waaaay at the bottom of the list.
My only concern atm is that said statue look good and be well made.
Looks good to me. I'd have my photo taken in Baphy's lap.
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Meanwhile, in the Ivory Labyrinth...Baphomet himself is cackling maniacally.
The absolute LAST thing any courthouse should post is a ruling as contrary to the first amendment as the first commandment.
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Thou shall not covet is kinda a pre-stop to larceny, and a whole bunch of other gimme! related stuff.It also undermines the american way of life, wanting material things and always striving to make more money
Only if you accept the premise that you're greedy wanting to keep or make your own money and buy your own things...
Being covetous is wanting other people's stuff to the point of discontent with your own, not going and working for your own.
My intent would not be to sneak a 10 commandments statue past anyone.
I just wondered how far the seperation had to be, and if there was any rationale to it, or just a flat "No not ever".The 10 commandments? No, not ever.
I remember going to Catholic school and being told that the reason we had 10 amendments was to echo the 10 commandments. Which is ignorant of the fact that originally there were 12 amendments (only 10 of which were successfully ratified in the original go) and the 10 commandments were cherry-picked out of hundreds from Jewish law when Christianity was being codified by Rome, because Rome had a thing about the number 10.
I was also told that our code of laws stems directly from that (which is rubbish anyway) since we outlaw murder and theft. Let's not mention that the 10 commandments has no condemnation against rape, or other really nasty things.
The point is, the 10 commandments have nothing to do with the evolution of our legal code, except perhaps as an appendix about antiquated religious laws.
TL;DR- The FIRST COMMANDMENT is "You shall have no other gods before me," which is about the most conspicuously religious law you can have. All the good, relevant stuff about not killing each other is waaaay at the bottom of the list.
Where in the heck did you get the idea that the Ten Commandments are a purely Christian thing. They're right there in the Torah.
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My only concern atm is that said statue look good and be well made.Looks good to me. I'd have my photo taken in Baphy's lap.
I approve.
Where in the heck did you get the idea that the Ten Commandments are a purely Christian thing. They're right there in the Torah.
The Burning Bush, of course.
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