This really would be an issue that would come down to what info the paladin and angel have. Also the goal of the party would be a big factor.
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They will fight. It's that simple. Duty vs Duty trumps any alignment conundrum.
Especially against Angels and Archons. They tend to follow their orders to the letter.
I remember the high level adventure Bastion of the Broken Soul, you need to get into a divine vault and for that you had to fight two planetars. They were bound to their duty and it was necessary to get into the vault at all cost to save the universe.
I would not allow a paladin to engage an angel in combat with one exception: if the angel were placed as a guard to test the worthiness of people trying to enter the room then there could be a combat, but it would not be to the death.
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I would not allow a paladin to engage an angel in combat with one exception: if the angel were placed as a guard to test the worthiness of people trying to enter the room then there could be a combat, but it would not be to the death.
Why not? There is nothing evil or code breaking in engaging in combat with an angel.
What if conditions were such that the paladin might fall if he fails to engage?
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I would not allow a paladin to engage an angel in combat with one exception: if the angel were placed as a guard to test the worthiness of people trying to enter the room then there could be a combat, but it would not be to the death.Why not? There is nothing evil or code breaking in engaging in combat with an angel.
What I'd conditions were such that the paladin might fall if he fails to engage?
Give me an example of conditions where a lawful good god would send a lawful good emissary to cause a lawful good paladin to fall if he didn't fight to the death.
Besides, you're welcome to run your game your way. I would not create such a situation as, to me, that certainly doesn't seem like lawful good behavior.
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Remember, kids, free will is a lie. You can only believe one of nine very specific and very narrowly defined things that your GM dictates to you, and you can never, ever, EVER disagree with anyone. Otherwise, you're having badwrongfun.
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I would not allow a paladin to engage an angel in combat with one exception: if the angel were placed as a guard to test the worthiness of people trying to enter the room then there could be a combat, but it would not be to the death.Why not? There is nothing evil or code breaking in engaging in combat with an angel.
What I'd conditions were such that the paladin might fall if he fails to engage?
Give me an example of conditions where a lawful good god would send a lawful good emissary to cause a lawful good paladin to fall if he didn't fight to the death.
Besides, you're welcome to run your game your way. I would not create such a situation as, to me, that certainly doesn't seem like lawful good behavior.
You've never seen a situation with two LG characters, both fighting for what they believe to be right and just?
How about the typical trope of one person forced to fight another because of a hostage?, will the paladin refuse to draw arms against an angel and allow the hostage to be tortured/killed?
I mean it's a little convenient to have villains who will not use the paladin's code against him.
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It seems likely that a paladin would recognize an angel or archon and talk to them rather than fight. There would have to be some very specific circumstances to cause the two to fight one another. Without more information I would say they wouldn't fight as their general goals are the same.
Guarding a room may be the angels order, but he is not mindless. Guarding it from what? Guarding it for what? What is he guarding? If the party manages to arrive at the room under great need, is it unreasonable that the paladin could address the angel and inform him of the circumstances and convince him to allow him to pass? I think it's more reasonable that an angel would understand the paragon of goodness that is the paladin and help him in any reasonable way possible.
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Actually, I had this problem on my LG Cleric of Torag. There was a bound Angel of some kind protecting the ruins of the scenario villain. Apparently, the Angel had been duped into believing that we were on a mission of destruction or somesuch. Some of the party just wanted to fight and get it over with. I said in no uncertain terms that I would NOT battle or kill a being of pure good, and that I would rather fail the mission than kill an angel. Quite frankly, were it not for the no PvP rules of PFS, had the party engaged the angel, I would have joined the angel against my comrades.
Luckily through some good skill checks and good role play, we were able to show the angel that he was duped by the villain. So the angel returned to the heavens and let us pass into the ruins to finish the mission.
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The goals of the two dieties involved, ie the paladin's patron and the superior of the angel may have differing goals even with a lawful good alignment. I would expect a significant attempt to talk through the situation, but if the two duties are in opposition and not able to be reolved through talking, then the two would fight.
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Season 4 of Pathfinder Society involved enemies that summoned Lawful Good creatures to fight for them, and in higher tiers even called those creatures. Which meant that killing the angel that was battling you actually killed it. LG vs LG is not an impossible situation, but truly LG characters would not murder each other over a disagreement.
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This is just a quick question as a GM. Has any one forced a Paladin to fight an angel of the same alignment? The Angel has been commanded to guard the room at all costs. How would you handle this as a GM?
Too many variables. Impossible to determine.
What's the angel guarding?Why does the paladin want it? DOES the Paladin want it? Does the angel mind if the Paladin gets it?
Why is the angel guarding it?
How does the Paladin approach the situation?
What do the Paladin's other party members do?
What were the angel's exact orders? Are there loopholes that either side could use?
There's simply not enough information here to make any informed decision about how the situation would be handled.
It seems likely that a paladin would recognize an angel or archon and talk to them rather than fight. There would have to be some very specific circumstances to cause the two to fight one another. Without more information I would say they wouldn't fight as their general goals are the same.
Guarding a room may be the angels order, but he is not mindless. Guarding it from what? Guarding it for what? What is he guarding? If the party manages to arrive at the room under great need, is it unreasonable that the paladin could address the angel and inform him of the circumstances and convince him to allow him to pass? I think it's more reasonable that an angel would understand the paragon of goodness that is the paladin and help him in any reasonable way possible.
So a LAWFUL good angel is going to disobey orders for a mortal? Really?
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So a LAWFUL good angel is going to disobey orders for a mortal? Really?It seems likely that a paladin would recognize an angel or archon and talk to them rather than fight. There would have to be some very specific circumstances to cause the two to fight one another. Without more information I would say they wouldn't fight as their general goals are the same.
Guarding a room may be the angels order, but he is not mindless. Guarding it from what? Guarding it for what? What is he guarding? If the party manages to arrive at the room under great need, is it unreasonable that the paladin could address the angel and inform him of the circumstances and convince him to allow him to pass? I think it's more reasonable that an angel would understand the paragon of goodness that is the paladin and help him in any reasonable way possible.
Why not? Gods, assuming you use them, are not perfect in most game worlds. Especially not in Golarion, where most of them are idiots. They're fallible, they make mistakes, they might have this wrong.
And then there's always the loophole approach. "I have to guard this room at all costs!" "Well, we're not going to damage the room at all, just take that thing inside it." Angel follows orders to the letter.
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I wrote one scenario where the party needed to collect an ancient book in the bowels of a monastery... unfortunately, this meant they had to unseal the level, potentially releasing a nasty demon. A paladin npc was sworn to prevent that...and he and his knights would fight tothe death.
...even against another paladin... or whatever.
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You'd have to be the minion of an idiot to fall for that.Why not? Gods, assuming you use them, are not perfect in most game worlds. Especially not in Golarion, where most of them are idiots. They're fallible, they make mistakes, they might have this wrong.
And then there's always the loophole approach. "I have to guard this room at all costs!" "Well, we're not going to damage the room at all, just take that thing inside it." Angel follows orders to the letter.
Then we're in the clear!
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You'd have to be the minion of an idiot to fall for that.Why not? Gods, assuming you use them, are not perfect in most game worlds. Especially not in Golarion, where most of them are idiots. They're fallible, they make mistakes, they might have this wrong.
And then there's always the loophole approach. "I have to guard this room at all costs!" "Well, we're not going to damage the room at all, just take that thing inside it." Angel follows orders to the letter.
Like I said.
Lawful Good can fight lawful Good no problem. Shockingly, they can even disagree! Though summoned creatures tend to lack that ability. So what exactly is the problem, anyway?
Anyways, I don't see a problem with it. So I guess I'd run it like fighting anything else in a room.
They could definately fight. Now the debate is if they would do lethal damage to eachother.
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All you have to do is flash your lawful good badge and the nice angel will give you the treasure!
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Like I said.You'd have to be the minion of an idiot to fall for that.Why not? Gods, assuming you use them, are not perfect in most game worlds. Especially not in Golarion, where most of them are idiots. They're fallible, they make mistakes, they might have this wrong.
And then there's always the loophole approach. "I have to guard this room at all costs!" "Well, we're not going to damage the room at all, just take that thing inside it." Angel follows orders to the letter.
Heh.
Your reverence for the gods leaves something to be desired. :)
You missed a perfectly good opportunity to say, "I find your lack of faith disturbing."
Your reverence for the gods leaves something to be desired. :)
Pfft, when was the last time they did something for me?
How would you handle this as a GM?
Cackle madly and watch the paliden try to weasel his way out of this one! :)
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Ran into that situation in the season 4 mod with my Paladin. I used diplomacy. I talked to the angel, I convinced him of the need to go into the crypt and retrieve the Mc guffin by having him use zone of truth on me to prove to him my intent was truthful and told him I would only take the object that we needed to complete our mission. After the party entered we engaged the bad guys they left and found one very pissed of angel and he uncorked holy whip ass on them.
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A smart paladin would do what Fergurg described.
A dumb paladin would put up the "Morale Blinders". He would just happen to be in the conveniently soundproofed room on the other side of the hall, investigating the remarkable architecture of it. When he gets back to find an unguarded room, he would then assume that the angel had been discharged. Because it is unthinkable that between the CN scythe-wielding barbarian, the CN butterfly stinging rogue, and the CN slumber witch, anyone in the party could ever be so dishonorable as to lie to the paladin and kill the angel. Of course not. Never.
but truly LG characters would not murder each other over a disagreement.Why not? Happens all the time in Real life - why not in fantasy RPG's?
Because its a fantasy, of course~.
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Because people mistakenly think that having an alignment on your sheet is like wearing a sports uniform. Sharing an alignment with someone doesn't mean you're on the same team, working together towards the same goals. It doesn't even mean you like or agree with one another, and it sure doesn't mean you can ID one another on sight.
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Because people mistakenly think that having an alignment on your sheet is like wearing a sports uniform. Sharing an alignment with someone doesn't mean you're on the same team, working together towards the same goals. It doesn't even mean you like or agree with one another, and it sure doesn't mean you can ID one another on sight.
Hey, lets be fair. Only LG people don't fight. All those evil guys have to backstab eachother or they wouldn't be evil! After all, only good guys know how to get along.
Edit: Similarly, there's a stigma that people in an organization are all of similar morality and function, when that's actually pretty far from the truth! And an ideal that lawful or military organizations can't use chaotic characters, which is also far fetched for a dozen reasons. Whether it be acceptance, or if its about people doing things their own way, or if its about getting away with things while no ones looking.
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Because people mistakenly think that having an alignment on your sheet is like wearing a sports uniform. Sharing an alignment with someone doesn't mean you're on the same team, working together towards the same goals. It doesn't even mean you like or agree with one another, and it sure doesn't mean you can ID one another on sight.
Seriously heh.
I like this scenario.
Two parties need a McGuffin and are on a time limit such that only one will have the time to use it. Both parties contain Good characters. It'd be ridiculously difficult to solve this without bloodshed.
It all comes back to what you interpret an alignment to be. Some people want absolutes and see alignment as a straight jacket that they are bound to.
I see it as a disposition and a set of values to work from, not to.
When you think about it, most people could be considered lawful good in modern society. In general we all obey the laws of the land, act in a structured and orderly manner and try to live good lives with fulfilling relationships. While I won't argue all people are like that there's enough optimist in me to feel that people are generally good.
But I don't agree or get along with everyone I meet. This is because often I have conflicting goals or motivations with theirs. I see my needs as my priority. I'm not saying that theirs aren't important, it's just that mine are relevant to me.
Am I evil for disagreeing or working at cross purposes? Of course not. If my ventures succeed and theirs fail I'm sympathetic but it won't deter me. I likely won't fight or kill them to get what I want, but that's more to do with the reality of our existence that makes it unnecessary.
In a fantasy world where conflict is common and life is held more cheaply (like it or not) it's not outside the realm of possibility that similar alignments with differing motivations will come into conflict. In truth a LG zealot (paladins/angels) are IMHO more likely to feel justified in their cause and defending it because the think they have the 'moral high ground'.
In my campaign LG can and does fight LG.
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We ran into a similar scenario: After talking to a spirit guarding a vault, who was bound to the current evil bbeg, but not evil himself, we decided to do things the tougher way and not break into the vault.
The paladin in the group was kinda iffy about killing a good person just to make killing an evil guy a bit easier.
Turns out I was incinerated during that bbeg fight, dems the breaks.
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When you think about it, most people could be considered lawful good in modern society.
I thought about it and I came to a different conclusion.
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You'd have to be the minion of an idiot to fall for that.Why not? Gods, assuming you use them, are not perfect in most game worlds. Especially not in Golarion, where most of them are idiots. They're fallible, they make mistakes, they might have this wrong.
And then there's always the loophole approach. "I have to guard this room at all costs!" "Well, we're not going to damage the room at all, just take that thing inside it." Angel follows orders to the letter.
Or a highly intelligent being who weighs the options and decides that this party needs into the vault more than you need to guard it.
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So a LAWFUL good angel is going to disobey orders for a mortal? Really?It seems likely that a paladin would recognize an angel or archon and talk to them rather than fight. There would have to be some very specific circumstances to cause the two to fight one another. Without more information I would say they wouldn't fight as their general goals are the same.
Guarding a room may be the angels order, but he is not mindless. Guarding it from what? Guarding it for what? What is he guarding? If the party manages to arrive at the room under great need, is it unreasonable that the paladin could address the angel and inform him of the circumstances and convince him to allow him to pass? I think it's more reasonable that an angel would understand the paragon of goodness that is the paladin and help him in any reasonable way possible.
Quite possibly. I'm not saying you're going to walk in and he's going to let you pass without any concern, but the chances that you (as a paladin) can find a way to peacefully gain access to the mcguffin by convincing the angel of your need, and of his gods desire, for you to access the item...it's seems far more likely than a paladin walking into the room with the angel and just deciding that "Hey, that angel wont let me prance on it to what I want so I'm going to kill him!".
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Quite possibly. I'm not saying you're going to walk in and he's going to let you pass without any concern, but the chances that you (as a paladin) can find a way to peacefully gain access to the mcguffin by convincing the angel of your need, and of his gods desire, for you to access the item...it's seems far more likely than a paladin walking into the room with the angel and just deciding that "Hey, that angel wont let me prance on it to what I want so I'm going to kill him!".
What if the paladin serves Torag and the angel serves Sarenrae? Are you sure that the Paladin will be seeing eye to eye with the angel then?
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Good people don't always get along. This is from Paizo.
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Quite possibly. I'm not saying you're going to walk in and he's going to let you pass without any concern, but the chances that you (as a paladin) can find a way to peacefully gain access to the mcguffin by convincing the angel of your need, and of his gods desire, for you to access the item...it's seems far more likely than a paladin walking into the room with the angel and just deciding that "Hey, that angel wont let me prance on it to what I want so I'm going to kill him!".So a LAWFUL good angel is going to disobey orders for a mortal? Really?It seems likely that a paladin would recognize an angel or archon and talk to them rather than fight. There would have to be some very specific circumstances to cause the two to fight one another. Without more information I would say they wouldn't fight as their general goals are the same.
Guarding a room may be the angels order, but he is not mindless. Guarding it from what? Guarding it for what? What is he guarding? If the party manages to arrive at the room under great need, is it unreasonable that the paladin could address the angel and inform him of the circumstances and convince him to allow him to pass? I think it's more reasonable that an angel would understand the paragon of goodness that is the paladin and help him in any reasonable way possible.
Possible, but by no stretch guaranteed.
I'd actually say that the reverse is far more likely of the pally walking up having the angel / archon explain to them and them deciding to agree that yes, the angel is right. Consider for a second that regardless of what you've been told, you have the EMBODIMENT of everything that is GOOD and JUST and what you are supposed to stand for in this world standing in front of you saying "Not going to happen." Ignoring that warning and continuing the course without at least looking at other options would be an absolutely massive act of hubris. In that act, your basically saying that you know better than whoever put that Angel there (who almost certainly is well up the celestial chain of command, has access to far more information than you do, and is far older, wiser and more powerful than you). So I'm explicit, no, I'm not suggesting fall, but he should have a few 'message from god' dreams for a few weeks.
The alternate answer from the Angel might be to the effect of "Sorry. I was charged to guard this vault against all intruders. These order came from upon high and we were told that unsealing this would be worse than anything that might be going on. They not have been aware of whatever it is your facing, but I'm putting my money on they were because... again... the whole upon high part. I respect your quest. I wish you no ill will. Rest here if you want and I will watch over you, but find another way to complete your task or I swear by me I will end you and consign your souls to oblivion for eternity to make sure you do not threaten my sacred charge EVER again. "
Or finally, they might believe that the Pally is earnest, but has been deceived. It might be far more likely that they believe a mere mortal can be deceived to work against them than they believe that their superiors (who might be the right hand of a GOD remember) didn't anticipate or have an inkling that they might be imprisoning something they'll need later in there. Or maybe they did anticipate it being required and allowed for people to pass as long as they uttered the right pass phrase which has been lost in history (blasted mortals and their finite lifespans. I go for a nap, wake up, and suddenly everyone's dead of old age!)... but the Angel can't give these hints because of whatever rules it's under... or for fear that they might mention this to the wrong people and they'd go get the password by force and your back to the pally being a dupe again.
"I'm not going to go easy on you Clarence."
Because people mistakenly think that having an alignment on your sheet is like wearing a sports uniform. Sharing an alignment with someone doesn't mean you're on the same team, working together towards the same goals. It doesn't even mean you like or agree with one another, and it sure doesn't mean you can ID one another on sight.
Seriously heh.
I like this scenario.
Two parties need a McGuffin and are on a time limit such that only one will have the time to use it. Both parties contain Good characters. It'd be ridiculously difficult to solve this without bloodshed.
Each party has:
2 good party members
1 chaotic
1 evil member
1 mascot
FIGHT!!!
Quite possibly. I'm not saying you're going to walk in and he's going to let you pass without any concern, but the chances that you (as a paladin) can find a way to peacefully gain access to the mcguffin by convincing the angel of your need, and of his gods desire, for you to access the item...it's seems far more likely than a paladin walking into the room with the angel and just deciding that "Hey, that angel wont let me prance on it to what I want so I'm going to kill him!".What if the paladin serves Torag and the angel serves Sarenrae? Are you sure that the Paladin will be seeing eye to eye with the angel then?
Are you so certain they can't find a way to peacefully resolve the application?
I agree that sometimes good forces may fight themselves once other options have been exhausted. But they should exhaust those options before entering into combat.
To be honest, if a played a paladin and the GM railroaded me into fighting an angel or archon without providing me another option I would be pretty pissed about it. Why is there such an interest and support in "Good Must Fight Itself!"?
If I was the paladin, I'd try for diplomacy, but failing that, I'd slay that angel where it stands. It's for the greater good, and greater good should come before all else.
Paladins aren't actually greater good above all else. That's neutral good. Neutral good will put good above all else. They have no other moral compunctions or guidance, they seek only good. A paladin will not instantly be on the side "greater good". Imagine if a paladin had stood before Tar-Baphon while he was a baby and that paladin gained perfect knowledge of all the things that would pass if he did not take that exact moment to kill the child who was otherwise innocent at that time. Does the Paladin kill the baby? Is he right in doing so? It's not a simple, "For the Greater Good!".
If I was the GM, I'd rather enjoy watching the paladin struggle to deal with it, assuming he's of the "I can't fight them because we are both good" mindset, which is probably why I don't GM.
That's a real Richard move.