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Whatever floats your boat, I guess. Racial charisma minimums (heck, enforced racial minimums for any stat beyond "It is impossible to dock this score below X because of your +2 racial bonus") would be a pretty quick red-flag for me to get the heck out of dodge on that kind of game, myself.
The James Bond RPG has an Appearance description that ran from:
Plain
Normal
Good Looking
Attractive
Striking
SensationalIt was most expensive (character generation point wise) to be Normal looking as that had the least Fame points associated with it, if you're Plain or better than average looking you are more memorable and so are more easily recognised.
Bond was Striking!
I thought someone would remember that! Sensational looks wasn't good for blending in, but very good for the honeytrap. (Seduction was a trainable skill in that game). Can't remember if being ugly gave a bonus to intimidation, though.
Exactly, Orthos, YOU would be the one to decide what kind of game you want to play in, after all.
at this point it is clearly obvious you are not getting my point, really, you're not
do you assign charisma minimums based on Race? Not in any game I have ever run, but now that I mentioned the imaginary one above and you made this suggestion, I'm thinking cooool
does anyone even play a fighter, barbarian, rogue, or ranger in your games? All the time, because, well, never mind
i mean, with the charisma tax for specific cosmetic appearances, i'm sure you must get a lot of Oracles, Sorcerers, Bards, Ninja, and Paladins for the imaginary game I detailed above, I suppose this might be true, but then again, who knows
what do you base your standard of beauty on? some modern convention of beauty? What I base my standards of beauty on are not germane to this discussion, and have no bearing on the details of the imaginary game I detailed above, but then again I am beginning to see a pattern here with your line of questioning
You do not seem to be interested in discussing the imaginary game I described above which is the only thing relevant to the discussion, and instead seem determined to discuss my opinion on beauty. Sorry, that is not relevant to my point.
it's an imaginary game i could not play in without more understanding
but i apologize if i came across the wrong way
it was in reference to your imaginary game and i was merely curious, for people to play, they would have to know your standards or beauty
i intended to get you to spill your standards of beauty, so that players in your imaginary game with a low charisma, know what to avoid when playing.
i personally like being in control of my character's appearance rather than having a number, trait or racial minimum dictate it for me.
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I've always thought of charisma as being more about force of personality than anything else. In our current Way of the Wicked game no one can stand our bard, who has Charisma 20, because she's a horrible person (even by our standards). But she can be persuasive and inspiring. The Summoner (Also Charisma 20) is horribly scarred, but again his speeches and sermons about Asmodeus are inspiring. My character (Charisma 24) is a Magister, and the most socially pleasant of the bunch, but also a manipulative corward who, in his more human form, is gaunt. In his other form he's a lich. Not pretty.
So a low charisma character can be pretty but not very good socially, or lovely to look at but without much of a personality. And a high charisma character can be ugly and have a horrible personality but be a strong and inspiring person as well.
I often play high charisma characters, but they're rarely pretty. If it was a condition of Charisma that a high score meant beauty I probably wouldn't do it very often.
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Charisma ceases being a "mental stat" as soon as physical attractiveness is attached to it. for me, it's as simple as that.
The little snippet in the Getting Started section that mentions it is just an artifact left over from the less well-designed days of early gaming, IMO. That one word is literally the only time Charisma is referred to as anything other than a purely mental stat that represents force of personality and social skills. To my knowledge there is no other reference to this in the game.
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Rolls to try and seduce NPCs and the like should still be Charisma based: in that case, one just assumes that all of the PCs are generally attractive enough that it's going to come down to their social ability. That's my default assumption when I run games and when I play, so effectively not much difference.
if physical looks and cosmetic attractiveness were based on Charisma; how do you explain the transition from Mammy Graul to a Nymph to Cthulhu? how do you explain the many quite unattractive historical dictators with a great aura of authority? how do you explain the concept of the cute but shy wallflower? it's not that were expecting to be so pretty as to make other people do stuff for us, an unrealistic perk of appearance. it's that we want more control over our appearance instead of "you must have X charisma score to have Y Physical Build."
It's not a matter of "if." Appearance is under Charisma. It's listed in the CRB under Charisma. I already stated in my first post there's no limit on how your character looks. I already stated high scores do not mean beauty or likeability. It doesn't matter if you are an ugly dictator or cute wallflower, your charisma mod is what it is; nymph or Graul.
You can go on all day providing examples of how charisma, and any other ability score, doesn't perfectly take into account the individual qualities it represents. Of course, it wouldn't, but it's been simplified down to one ability, charisma. You can homebrew/houserule it down all you like. Pathfinder doesn't make the distinction, though. If you dump charisma and have a negative mod, then anything your do regarding the qualities that charisma encompasses, you take that penalty.
In PFRPG, you can define your characters appearance, including physical attractiveness, as you wish. There is no ability score that determines it, and it doesn't come into play. You can add a trait or a feat to your game that gives a bonus for having physical beauty, such as the Charming trait, if you wish.
And that's how I play it at my table.
Back to the original question...
GURPS doesn't have an attractiveness stat, but you can take advantages or disadvantages that define your PC's appearance...
Hideous Appearance (15 point disadvantage)
Ugly Appearance (10 point disadvantage)
Unattractive Appearance (5 point disadvantage)
Attractive Appearance (5 point advantage)
Beautiful/Handsome Appearance (10 point advantage)
Stunning Appearance (15 point advantage)
Each level came with a penalty or bonus to face-to-face social interaction skill rolls.
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Reason ok, i'm not so sure its good though. 3E been around over a decade and PF has ticked a few of its own. How long do people need to sort this out? Since we keep looking back, maybe we should look forward. Anybody know how Cha is defined in 4E and 5E?Apperance and attractivness are related but not one in the same. If someone tried to dump Cha and make up for it by being beautiful it would be totally up to the NPC. If the NPC thinks they could gain favor by following through they will. If the NPC sees it for what it is they will.There's a good reason for some confusion. Charisma specifically claims appearance. Older versions of D&D used low scores to represent the negative aspects of personality and appearance. It's not so, now. Charisma is a gauge of "how much" instead of pleasant/unpleasant and attractive/unattractive. If you play your character as snarky and unpleasant, that's fine. But if your charisma is low, you are bad at it, reflected by a negative modifier. If your charisma is high, you are good at it, reflected by a positive modifier.
High charisma doesn't presume niceness like it used to. That's why Cthulhu is rocking massive charisma; he's not inspiring lust or friendliness, but things are still in his favor socially because he is so terrifying, alien and his presence is so powerful.
Newer or different doesnt automatically equal better. In my opinion 4e sucked. So just saying move forward isnt always better.
I think 4e kept the attribute stuff pretty much the same as 3e.
Dont know about 5e yet.
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i honestly don't see how Cthulu or even a Night Hag can be considered widely attractive, but in your games, Cthulu must be the Epitome of Hotness.
Dude, Star-Spawn all over the universe have been trying for aeons to cultivate the Cthulhu look. He is one dead-sexy Xothian!
Why is it assumed that all martial character will have a dumped charisma?
Because Martial Characters aren't SAD like wizards and require investment in physical scores, and in intelligence and wisdom to boost their saving throws and skill points respective, which usually requires dumping charisma.
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Why is it assumed that all martial character will have a dumped charisma?Because Martial Characters aren't SAD like wizards and require investment in physical scores, and in intelligence and wisdom to boost their saving throws and skill points respective, which usually requires dumping charisma.
This I dont agree with. Admittedly only my opinion.
I made a very effective fighter who started with a 13 int, 10wis, 14 cha. After playing him for awhile I realise I could have put his wis to 12 and have been just as effective will a little better wil save. His cha would only have dropped to 12.
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35 charisma on cthulhu is, for me at least, irrefutable proof that charisma and looks have nothing to do with each other. Unless... You know... Some people got a thing for tentacles.... To each is own... Not really my thing.
Depends on who they're attatched to and where, I suppose...
>_>
<_<
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Today
I feel that this is the most beautiful thing ever created by the hand of man. I would give this a Charisma of 99
Tomorrow, I may think differently
Today
I feel that this is the most beautiful thing ever created by the hand of man. I would give this a Charisma of 99
Tomorrow, I may think differently
AWESOME!!!!
Victory Games, in my opinion, did it right. Instead of totally nebulous "Wisdom" and "Charisma" stats, they had Perception and Willpower, respectively. A lot less confusion there, right out of the gate.
Attractiveness was totally separate from those, and wasn't even an "ability score" -- but it did have a rating, with mechanical consequences. It cost the most points to be Average, and got cheaper as you became uglier or prettier. Because being progressively uglier or prettier was mechanically tied to an increasing chance that you'd be recognized by the BBEG (and presumably tortured/killed on sight).
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The problem with it is that everyone wants to look good. So, when they dump their Charisma to stupendously low levels, they draw the conclusion that their character still looks like a supermodel, they are just horrible to be around - and then act that way.If someone dumps cha at my table they can still be supermodel in looks. They just don't know how to assert themselves as a leader. People tend to not follow them easily. They don't quite know how to present themselves in a way that grabs attention.
The "my Cha is low so I'm an a-hole" idea needs to go away regardless of comeliness.
Sorry to hear that those were the kind of people you had to play with but there many different ways to play a low cha other then 'in your face extrovert'.
My opinion, those player would played thier characters the same no matter thier cha.
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Heres an example of 'real world' low charisma.
Leonard, Raj, and Howard probably have a cha of 8-9 because of socisl awkwardness.
Sheldon on the other hand probably has 5-7 because of social unawareness (not sure that unawareness is right word).
These are the main characters from the tv show 'Big Bang Theory.
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I disagree, a little, I would say Sheldon has at least a +1 or +2 modifier on interactions (changing attitudes) because even when he is in serious social trouble, his seeming "lack of awareness" and boyish charm, get him out of it most of the time. This is a situation where an awkward character actually has a high charisma due to a force of personality not entirely within the character's control
Sorry I disagree...
The only reason the others put up with Sheldon is because they have to live and work with him.
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Ugh. Devolved into comparisons with lame scripted characters from a sitcom.
Sitcom characters don't have to roll for Diplomacy, or anything else.
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as opposed to what? Exactly, eh, lame scripted characters from Golarion?
Meh. It's as valid as talking about how we NEED our characters to be cute even though we guttered Charisma.
Skills & Powers had a workable system that divided each attribute into two sub-scores. From the base score a player could personalize the sub-scores by lowering one of them to raise the other, up to two points for a four point spread.
That would be the best way to do it, imo. Simply adding a seventh "looks" attribute just gives cheese-heads another stat to dump.
*sigh* When did attributes get changed to abilites, anyway?
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Skills & Powers had a workable system that divided each attribute into two sub-scores. From the base score a player could personalize the sub-scores by lowering one of them to raise the other, up to two points for a four point spread.
That would be the best way to do it, imo. Simply adding a seventh "looks" attribute just gives cheese-heads another stat to dump.
*sigh* When did attributes get changed to abilites, anyway?
You could add a seventh attribute if it was a separate number from the other six but is modified by the six.
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Skills & Powers had a workable system that divided each attribute into two sub-scores. From the base score a player could personalize the sub-scores by lowering one of them to raise the other, up to two points for a four point spread.
That would be the best way to do it, imo. Simply adding a seventh "looks" attribute just gives cheese-heads another stat to dump.
*sigh* When did attributes get changed to abilites, anyway?
We've taken to using Comeliness again, and it is not included in the point buy, but rolled instead. Not that my group tends towards dump stats, but it heads that off.
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Skills & Powers had a workable system that divided each attribute into two sub-scores. From the base score a player could personalize the sub-scores by lowering one of them to raise the other, up to two points for a four point spread.
That would be the best way to do it, imo. Simply adding a seventh "looks" attribute just gives cheese-heads another stat to dump.
*sigh* When did attributes get changed to abilites, anyway?
My opinion is dnd 3.x is when the change happened.
Thanks, Jacob. Easy to forget T.H.A.C.0, some of it keeps bad, though like attributes.
Is that when we lost parry too? I rather miss parry.
@Jacob I think Comeliness / Physical Attractiveness stat makes very little sense in a game like D&D (or variants) or Star Wars because it's not really comparable across different cultures or species, and it's entirely subjective. (As opposed to something like Strength, which has a very objective basis that is comparable across very different creatures).
@Jacob I think Comeliness / Physical Attractiveness stat makes very little sense in a game like D&D (or variants) or Star Wars because it's not really comparable across different cultures or species, and it's entirely subjective. (As opposed to something like Strength, which has a very objective basis that is comparable across very different creatures).
i agree with this and would say there shouldn't be a stat for comeliness or physical attractiveness in any system
in fact
appearance should be up to the player, but certain attributes, namely physical ones, can be aids for designing one's appearance
i allow stealth muscle and useless muscle. because both exist in the real world. like Tiny Little Girls Judo throwing men thrice their mass, or men whom look buff on the exterior, but are weaklings on the interior .
Gygax's later game release?(paraphrase)
Dangerous Journeys i believe. I am unknowing on the attributes used.
Adding to the other systems/oldschool throw-ins.
Powers and Perils: had an appearance stat.
It's successor, Runequest i ...can't recall.
Many games that didn't have an Appearance/Comliness stat had some merit or flaw system for it.
Regarding 1st edition D&D, a negative Charisma gave the owner a Horror aura and in counterpart, the 20+ Charisma radiated Awe as a power.
Hope it helps!
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35 charisma on cthulhu is, for me at least, irrefutable proof that charisma and looks have nothing to do with each other. Unless... You know... Some people got a thing for tentacles.... To each is own... Not really my thing.Depends on who they're attatched to and where, I suppose...
>_>
<_<
Somewhere there is a website devoted to explicit images of Cthulu.
@Jacob I think Comeliness / Physical Attractiveness stat makes very little sense in a game like D&D (or variants) or Star Wars because it's not really comparable across different cultures or species, and it's entirely subjective. (As opposed to something like Strength, which has a very objective basis that is comparable across very different creatures).i agree with this and would say there shouldn't be a stat for comeliness or physical attractiveness in any system
in fact
appearance should be up to the player, but certain attributes, namely physical ones, can be aids for designing one's appearance
i allow stealth muscle and useless muscle. because both exist in the real world. like Tiny Little Girls Judo throwing men thrice their mass, or men whom look buff on the exterior, but are weaklings on the interior .
I'm not exactly an advocate for a Comliness stat, but this is easily enough handled with situational modifiers. This character is only into halflings, while this one has a thing for elves (+2) and finds most dwarves unattractive (-2), and just have flat out "does not apply" in some cases.
I'm not exactly an advocate for a Comliness stat, but this is easily enough handled with situational modifiers. This character is only into halflings, while this one has a thing for elves (+2) and finds most dwarves unattractive (-2), and just have flat out "does not apply" in some cases.
You and I have different ideas of "easily handled" then (that's what ___ said). There's something like 30 races on the PFSRD and race is not the only relevant factor in whether person x finds person y attractive. There's gender, style, poise, hair color, personality, intellect, height, weight, build... I don't find all that worth the trouble of modeling it in game mechanics. Diplomacy and be done with it, otherwise "he's just not into you."
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Somewhere there is a website devoted to explicit images of Cthulu.35 charisma on cthulhu is, for me at least, irrefutable proof that charisma and looks have nothing to do with each other. Unless... You know... Some people got a thing for tentacles.... To each is own... Not really my thing.Depends on who they're attatched to and where, I suppose...
>_>
<_<
Eh, I'm just gonna stick to the twi'lek and cecaelia sites I mean, I wouldn't know anything about any of that.
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So, this week I went to that game with the newbie players.
We were discussing who is on watch during the night and so on. Since I'm playing a synthesist, I noted that my character would be very weak when sleeping, and had to take a while to fuse the eidolon. Instead of prompting thought on precautions, one player immediately asked, 'What's your charisma?'
'Twenty,' I replied. I hadn't thought they would connect it with appearance.
This elicited excited gasps all round, then giggles, then an exclamation of 'Your boobs are huuuuuge!'. I sat there awkwardly for a few minutes while they fought over who would be on watch while my synthesist was sleeping.
So.
Yeah...
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Can't remember if being ugly gave a bonus to intimidation, though.
The James Bond RPG didn't have an Intimidation Skill, just Interrogation (indeed Charisma is a Skill based on Willpower).
But no, being ugly doesn't give you any benefits other than saving you character generation points.
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Since we keep looking back, maybe we should look forward. Anybody know how Cha is defined in 4E and 5E?
4e:
Charisma (Cha) measures your force of personality, persuasiveness, and leadership.Next:
Charisma measures your ability to interact with others well. It includes such factors as confidence, eloquence, and even appearance. A character with a high Charisma is likeable, forceful, or both. The character might exude confidence and grace and is most likely a natural leader. A character with a low Charisma score comes across as dull and possibly uneasy.
All characters benefit from a high Charisma, especially those who deal with nonplayer characters, such as hirelings, henchmen, and intelligent monsters. Charisma is also important to spellcasters who manipulate magical power through sheer force of will.
So, this week I went to that game with the newbie players.
We were discussing who is on watch during the night and so on. Since I'm playing a synthesist, I noted that my character would be very weak when sleeping, and had to take a while to fuse the eidolon. Instead of prompting thought on precautions, one player immediately asked, 'What's your charisma?'
'Twenty,' I replied. I hadn't thought they would connect it with appearance.
This elicited excited gasps all round, then giggles, then an exclamation of 'Your boobs are huuuuuge!'. I sat there awkwardly for a few minutes while they fought over who would be on watch while my synthesist was sleeping.
So.
Yeah...
I'd like to apologize on behalf of the human race. I have high hopes we can train (or beat) this out of gamers one day.
Freakin' yikes. :(
I got into the group through contact with old high school friends. I got to meet up with people I hadn't seen in ten years.
They haven't changed a bit.
I'd like to apologize on behalf of the human race. I have high hopes we can train (or beat) this out of gamers one day.So, this week I went to that game with the newbie players.
We were discussing who is on watch during the night and so on. Since I'm playing a synthesist, I noted that my character would be very weak when sleeping, and had to take a while to fuse the eidolon. Instead of prompting thought on precautions, one player immediately asked, 'What's your charisma?'
'Twenty,' I replied. I hadn't thought they would connect it with appearance.
This elicited excited gasps all round, then giggles, then an exclamation of 'Your boobs are huuuuuge!'. I sat there awkwardly for a few minutes while they fought over who would be on watch while my synthesist was sleeping.
So.
Yeah...
This is SERIOUS BUSINESS!!!!