is it just me ...or


RPG Superstar™ General Discussion

Grand Lodge Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

whatever happened to the old adage "Less is More"?

So many items with a verbosity that only Charles Dickens or Edward Lytton could be proud of.

I have seen a ton of items over 280 word count and it seems that they could have been more concise and still got the point across.

just an observation ...

good luck all

Grand Lodge Marathon Voter Season 7

I think it's because most people feel like they were given 300 words, so they were expected to use most of them. Moreover, creating an item with a new, innovative idea can be hard to get across in few words.

That said, I agree. A lot of the items could do with some trimming, but I try not to hold it against them.


I'd say your observation is correct. Conversely, I've seen items with very brief word counts that could have been strong contenders if the idea had been expanded upon and clarified more before the item was submitted.

Grand Lodge Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

I wasn't condemning them .. just making the observation.

but ..you are correct I have a seen a few very brief entries that were underwhelming.

such fun


I'm just saying it works both ways. An item could have a great concept that gets buried under extraneous text padding the description. On the other hand, it could be a great idea that just isn't done justice because the creator quit on it too early.

Samuel is probably correct that at least some of the people felt that they should get as close to the word count as possible, for whatever reason. Happens a lot. It's a limitation, but people look at it as a goal.

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You mean we're not getting paid by the word?


pH unbalanced wrote:
You mean we're not getting paid by the word?

If you win the whole thing, then yes, I do believe so.

Star Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9

I can just see Paizo's payroll person trying to weigh in on the competition now:

"Sure, competitor A has a real flair for design and prose, but look at Competitor Z for just a second; with his word count, we'd save so much money!"

Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8

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Unless Paizo does superstar winning modules very differently than other companies do such assignments, if you win your module will be given a word count that you are expected to come as close as possible too (too short is just as bad, or even worse that too long in these sorts of situations normally) so that although you might technically be being paid by the word they already know how much they are going to be paying you in advance.

Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

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cwslyclgh wrote:
Unless Paizo does superstar winning modules very differently than other companies do such assignments, if you win your module will be given a word count that you are expected to come as close as possible too (too short is just as bad, or even worse that too long in these sorts of situations normally) so that although you might technically be being paid by the word they already know how much they are going to be paying you in advance.

So what is Industry Standard pay for this? Just wondering.

Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8

I don't know what RPG industry standard is any more... 'professional rates' (that is the minimum rate that is considered to be professional writing) for fiction in magazines and such is currently around 5 cents a word, although I believe that SFWA is planning on raising their standard (or just recently did raise it) to 6 cents a word to be eligible to be considered for them.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka MythrilDragon

The key is making each word count. If your item needs 300 words to clearly detail and explain its function(s) then use them. However, many writers get caught up in needless stuff...backstory, who created the item first, who usually uses the item, or how they envision the item fitting into the campaign world. Theses are details that should be left up to the DM. Another issues is using five words to tell us something where three words do just as well, usually writing in the Active Voice helps this issue.

On the other hand some of these shorter entries have some potential but the designer has presented a cool item without thinking through all the possibilities that it might be used in. They leave the DM wondering what happens if Rule A comes up, and how about Rule B? Good designers look at the potential for how the item is going to interact in the rules system and make it clear to the reader with a few words as necessary.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9 aka Darkjoy

Azouth wrote:
cwslyclgh wrote:
Unless Paizo does superstar winning modules very differently than other companies do such assignments, if you win your module will be given a word count that you are expected to come as close as possible too (too short is just as bad, or even worse that too long in these sorts of situations normally) so that although you might technically be being paid by the word they already know how much they are going to be paying you in advance.
So what is Industry Standard pay for this? Just wondering.

1 cent per word

2 cent per word if you are somewhat established

6 cent per word = Paizo rate (but then you are the best of the best)

Yes, you are SO doing it for the money.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8 aka Jrcmarine

1 person marked this as a favorite.

So my item could bring me $18.00 pre-tax?! Woo hoo!

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9 aka Darkjoy

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jrcmarine wrote:
So my item could bring me $18.00 pre-tax?! Woo hoo!

No, you gave away your rights to your item at the start of the contest.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8 aka Jrcmarine

Maurice de Mare wrote:
Jrcmarine wrote:
So my item could bring me $18.00 pre-tax?! Woo hoo!
No, you gave away your rights to your item at the start of the contest.

AMENDED: My future items could bring me $18.00?! Woot! 

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9 aka Darkjoy

Jrcmarine wrote:
Maurice de Mare wrote:
Jrcmarine wrote:
So my item could bring me $18.00 pre-tax?! Woo hoo!
No, you gave away your rights to your item at the start of the contest.

AMENDED: My future items could bring me $18.00?! Woot! 

No, it is more likely that you are looking forward to $3.....

Before taxes :>

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
cwslyclgh wrote:
I don't know what RPG industry standard is any more... 'professional rates' (that is the minimum rate that is considered to be professional writing) for fiction in magazines and such is currently around 5 cents a word, although I believe that SFWA is planning on raising their standard (or just recently did raise it) to 6 cents a word to be eligible to be considered for them.

Makes sense. It's been at 5 cents for quite a while now. I hope the market's able to absorb that change. I'd sure hate for the number of qualifying markets to shrink -- I'm still working on getting enough sales for SFWA membership.

Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8

metacog- what if voting acumen is the real test of ability! perseverance, clarity consistency catching formatting glitch but not being so legalistically entrenched that you cant spot a stellar idea if it answers the door in a bathrobe.

Star Voter Season 7

If you've been rolling the item idea around in your head long enough and done a little research to identify conflicts, you have a strong idea of how best to describe it, relative to the rules and what specific rules you feel need to be addressed in the description. It's entirely possible that a modestly complex item could put you at nearly 500 words. So you go back and do some rewriting.

First you target effects you thought were cool, but if you're honest just distract from the function. Then you start noticing that, "Oh man, this sentence uses different words to accomplish the same thing as that sentence two lines up", and the "The box is gold." Is somehow actually more flavorful than "This particular box is not quite yellow, with a metallic glint and a unnatural heft."

Then if the word count is still to high, you have to start the hard process of deciding which broken parts of your brain are hiding the fluff from you. If you have friends, or even editors with benefits, this is a good time to start reading it to them and see what they either don't get, or believe is unnecessary. After your ego is done hurting and you can view the criticism objectively, you have to do the nasty, nasty job of honestly evaluating it for truth. Maybe it isn't necessary for the item to kill the owner and give the party poison damage on a botched skill roll. Does it really make sense to include rule language about nightmares if the character doesn't take a full rest with the item in their possession, when most GMs you know are sadistic enough to fill in those drawbacks for you?

In the end, the 300 word limit is probably the best thing to happen to some first time entrants. There's a lot of rewriting that might never happen otherwise.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9 aka GM_Solspiral

Maurice de Mare wrote:
Jrcmarine wrote:
Maurice de Mare wrote:
Jrcmarine wrote:
So my item could bring me $18.00 pre-tax?! Woo hoo!
No, you gave away your rights to your item at the start of the contest.

AMENDED: My future items could bring me $18.00?! Woot! 

No, it is more likely that you are looking forward to $3.....

Before taxes :>

Darkjoy is correct. The 3PPs can't afford much, the profit margins of being a small publisher are well... small.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6 aka Transylvanian Tadpole

Scorba wrote:

whatever happened to the old adage "Less is More"?

So many items with a verbosity that only Charles Dickens or Edward Lytton could be proud of.

I have seen a ton of items over 280 word count and it seems that they could have been more concise and still got the point across.

just an observation ...

good luck all

A lot of people say that Charles Dickens is quite handy with the English language. I hope he enters RPG Superstar one day . . .

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Phloid

2 people marked this as a favorite.

When it comes to word count, every line should have a purpose and every word within a line should have a purpose within that sentence. When reviewing an item that seems to be long ask yourself why the author needed this line. Repeated or restated information should warrant the same question. Were they trying to clarify something and did that thing need to be clarified?

I find, that when a I create an item that really messes with or adds rules to the game, extra sentences are needed to fill in holes, explain the limitations, and prevent abuses. These sentences should still be short, concise, and easy to understand. I often will down vote an item that I read and immediately think, "that's broken or will be very broken with the right combination of abilities."

If there are superfluous lines of description, or back story, that is definitely a NO NO in this competition which has been said for years, and published items (outside of adventures) do not have that sort of thing. One sentence describing the item is all you should need. If you need to clue a reader as to where the item came from, subtle ways through name and description should be all you need. We don't need to know what the name of the Arch-Cleric that created the first one was.

That is the way I see the issue.

Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9

Many are plain just-too-long, and the lack of paragraph breaks is killing my poor eyes.

It's bad enough that by the end of some of the longest ones I still don't really get what they do, but the attempt of trying to cast my eyes back over the wall of text to clarify or understand hurts.

Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7

When you look at the slew of Magical items currently in print for Pathfinder, they tend to be very skinny averaging 85 to 185 in length. Judging by that as a standard, a magical item with 185+ words would be them really going above their typical magical item count. Namely Bag of Holding or Bag of Tricks for example.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Phloid

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Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Many are plain just-too-long, and the lack of paragraph breaks is killing my poor eyes.

Yes, entrants. By all means, please break up your paragraphs with line spaces. It helps to read long entries. Many published items do this where appropriate and some are bulletted where appropriote. You should do it too. It also helps in voting to recognise an item you have voted on before and get the meat out of it to compare it to the other quickly and easily.

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Pen2paper wrote:
When you look at the slew of Magical items currently in print for Pathfinder, they tend to be very skinny averaging 85 to 185 in length. Judging by that as a standard, a magical item with 185+ words would be them really going above their typical magical item count. Namely Bag of Holding or Bag of Tricks for example.

Of course, those two item are one item with different levels, and even a table.

Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

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Wordcount is starting, it seems, to be a major criteria to whether an item is assessed or not. So please consider the following.

To be fair to those spending the time to try to inspire and stretch for the stars, this is RPG Superstar, not RPG Standard.

I would much rather vote for an item that says things like "Angel wings sprout from your shoulders, a golden nimbus haloing your form as you ascend (as levitate)." than "You rise as levitate." any day of the week.

The are some very cool items of 200+ words - these competitors have striven to give you something special, to add that wow factor.

Yes, some will not be as special as others, that's why we have the minute count down, so we can take the time to read and assess before casting our vote.

This competition isn't looking for the "standard" designer/entrant, it is looking for that really special designer. The designer who is so creative, so vivid in phrase and design, that you truly desire to see more from them.

You owe it to yourselves to check every item, regardless of word count, and seek out those designers that make you go wow.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9 aka theheadkase

Echoing Anthony...

It's been said many times that a "Book of Magic Items" item isn't what is being sought after here. It doesn't mean that a Spell-in-a-Can or Swiss Army Knife item is bad...it just may not be a Top 32 contender in this contest.

As Anthony points out, "You rise as per levitate" is short and to the point. It's also extremely boring.

Another part of why wordcount is rising is because of just what some of these items do. Trying to bend or just slightly fracture a rule has consequences. Those consequences need to be addressed otherwise the item is too out of balance. Add to that the need to show how creative of a writer you are because now the talent pool is MUCH larger than it used to be a few years ago.

Please do take the time to read each item.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Locke1520

To also echo Anthony:

Sure the shorter entries are easier to read but if a designer wants to sidestep the traps of "X Game Element in a Can" that costs words. So do some of the more evocative descriptions.

TLDR isn't a good way to vote in this contest please give every entry a fair shake and read it.

But on the flip side. Future designers should take note of these complaints and if a line of text or even a single word isn't required...cut it or find a short way of saying the same thing.

Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

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I tend to read the shorter item first, as it is quicker to tell if it is good or not. Then read the other.

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32, 2011 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Boxhead

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A someone with one of the longest ( Hourglass of the Insightful Conjurer) and one of the shortest (Shadow Falconer's Glove) items to make the top 32, I think the item's description needs to be exactly as long as it needs to be. Sometimes you can get away with 100-150 words with an evocative effect (the Shadow Falconer's Glove was a whopping 152 words, too long for some people here). Sometimes you have a complicated item and want to show that you thought about corner cases as much as you can. Those are going to push as close to 300 as they can (280 or so for the Hourglass, by the way). Both are equally valid in my eyes, as long as they're doing their job.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Phloid

For the first few years of this competition I thought that dynamic descriptions and backstory must be what the judges want to see. I thought they want to see how you can describe something creatively and with flourish and tell as story. But then I realized that is not what they want to see. We are not writing prose here. We are writing game rules. Of course a writer of an adventure must do both, but in this case, it is not want the assignment is.

Items in the published books generally don't use this overly descriptive wording and so we shouldn't. This does not mean that you can't be evocative in your descriptions, but make sure you don't over do it. One sentence describing the item and no more than a few words describing what the effect looks, feels, smells, or sounds like. Your item's name can also help with evoking visuals in the mind of your reader. To use Anthony's example, you don't have to say "you rise as levitate," but if your item's name mentions angels you might simply say "the user sprouts radiant wings and ascends as the levitate spell." You don't have to mention that wings come from the shoulders (that's assumed) and you don't have to describe the glowing with three words when one might do. Let your reader's imagination fill in the gaps.

At least that is my take on this subject.


benedict wrote:

If you've been rolling the item idea around in your head long enough and done a little research to identify conflicts, you have a strong idea of how best to describe it, relative to the rules and what specific rules you feel need to be addressed in the description. It's entirely possible that a modestly complex item could put you at nearly 500 words. So you go back and do some rewriting.

<other stuff>

This closely represents my process for the original item I was going to submit. I worked and reworked it over and over again, but despite chopping off as much as I could, I was still over 300 words. In the end, I gave up and wrote items B, C, and D... and item C is the one I submitted.

Azouth wrote:


So what is Industry Standard pay for this? Just wondering.

Also, on the subject of pay, I've sat in on 2 writers seminars at Gencon, and based on the information there, I would say the standard pay seems to be 1 cent/word for inexperienced writers, to 3 cents/word for the average writer, to 5 cents/word for the "A list" writers.

It was also mentioned that the pay has remained the same for decades, while inflation has continued to rise, meaning that modern writers are actually getting an effectively smaller paycheck than their predecessors. Fortunately, most RPG writers are not doing it (only) for the money.

I've heard more than once: "The best way to make a small fortune in the RPG industry, is to start with a large fortune."

Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7

I've read through well over 500+ entries (ok many repeated... many times) and I don't mind them being long or short. Either is fine with me just seems the longer items tend to be the ones I have had to read over again just to make sure I read it right. Sometimes the text reiterates the same thing in another line for example or I find they are really pushing the items function to the max (menaing a slew of benefits). If yours is a long item (280 to 300) that doesn't mean yours was one I was reviewing. God knows I'm still seeing new entries pop in mixed into the hordes of repeaters. I have found though in my humble opinion that the best one's were pretty simple mid level 150 word items. They made their point as an author and didn't a fair job placing a good visual into my mind. I can honestly say I have found well over 40 good items and some dynamtic ideas to boot. I have also found many longer items 150+ that are good too. They just added more details to flesh it out and I feel they might have needed a little more because the idea was so full that 300 words just didn't seem enough. That happens.. Deck of Many things ideas need space... but the constants hold those ideas "fully developed" at bay....sadly. I would have loved to see a few have had no space restrictions. I'll comment on those after the comp.. I saw a large idea being forced into a tiny living space.

Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7

Oh almost forgot.. Ant, I have seen (3) items now using the same idea you used in your post to show as an example of how to build an item. At first I thought these were rips but they take on differences of their own. Just thought it was unreal that you were on the same page with an idea others also had. Speaking of that, at least 4 items I have found counterparts too. which to me is too funny.. like the people were on the same page with each other and they only changed the name slightly or the design varied only a little. Stuff happens though.. I honestly get a kick out of it. =o)

Lata (back to voting!)

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I have seen two of them then, they are different in mechanics, just a similar visual theme, so well done to those designers!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8

Anthony Adam wrote:
I have seen two of them then, they are different in mechanics, just a similar visual theme, so well done to those designers!

But won't you just bet those designers groaned very loudly when you started your thread...

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Yeah >.<

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7

Jacob Trier wrote:
Anthony Adam wrote:
I have seen two of them then, they are different in mechanics, just a similar visual theme, so well done to those designers!
But won't you just bet those designers groaned very loudly when you started your thread...

I managed to dodge an arrow with my entry this year. The idea I was thinking of submitting for 11 months is not the item I finally submitted. In voting so far, I saw one item with almost an identical name, an identical description, and very similar powers.

Plus, I saw two other close items. Whew! I am sure those designers are glad I changed my mind too.

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

I tend to start with a 200-225 word item, with nice descriptions and flavor text, and then during revisions, I start imagining all the ways players could abuse the item, and so I start plugging holes. Once I've plugged all the holes, I end up with a 350-400 word item, so then I start trimming the flavor text a bit, switch a bunch of "the user/wearer"'s with "he"'s, and get down to 325. Then I start looking for ways to combine sentences with dashes or semi-colons, to avoid repeating redundant sentence subjects and improve flow, and usually arrive at 304 (sometimes 303). Then it's down to paring lists of adjectives to one each, cutting a few phrases that I realize aren't necessary, getting myself down to a comfortable 290.

Then I see another hole, growl something mean about munchkin players ruining my item, nuke the thing, and start over with something completely new.

Good thing we get a whole year to work on these.

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