Ok so new details have emerged! I had another post for this but everybody looked at the first post and replied without reading my posts after which had this updated information and I couldn't edit the post so, without further ado, have at it!
Build so far:
Race: Kitsune
Class: Oracle/Paladin
Starting lvl: 4
Gold: 6k
Stats
Str:15(13) (-2 racial)
Dex:13(15) (+2 racial)
Con:13
Int:12
Wis:11
Cha:15(17) (+2 racial)
Now this is the difficult part where I'll need further assistance. Please keep in mind that I am going to be the primary healer so please explain your thought process when recommending feats. Also, the character is intended to help survivability more than deal massive damage. I like the quickdraw shield idea as it allows me to use or rid myself of it in order to heal myself or others. What I'm wondering is if the falcata is the best weapon of choice? (considering a weapon with reach to possibly keep opponants at bay? Also, if I continue leveling as a Paladin will I be able to keep up with the healing needs of an all melee group? lol. We have 1 ninja and idk the other two meleers.
2 lvl's of paladin and 2 lvls of oracle to start
1 Paladin
2 Paladin
3 Oracle
3 Oracle
Note: At the DM's discretion I start with a free +1 weapon with "Menacing"
I've never played a campaign past 5th lvl so any advice on how to spend my 6 g's would be awesome as well.
If you have need of any other info that would be useful let me know and I'll try to find it out. NO ARCHeTYPeS btw.
I have a few questions before I get started.
1) Are you using a 20 point buy and would you be willing to switch up the stat block? A Str: 13 Dex: 16 Con: 13 Int: 12 Wis: 8 Cha: 16 would work out a bit better, with the your level 4 boost going into Con. An Oradin build really wants more HP to power the Life Link ability, 14 Con is really the minimum.
2) Could you convince your GM to give you a +1 Agile weapon instead? If so, an Agile weapon along with Power Attack would give you decent damage as you level up with only 1 feat invested in offence.
3) Is the no archetype ruling a personal preference or a GM ruling? The Oradin build can really benefit from using archetypes in your Paladin levels.
They are rolled stats, not a point buy and the weapon properties were a random roll so no convincing capabilities. Same goes for archetypes they're not allowed.
Traits:
Devotee of the green: Knowledge nature
ear for music: Plays the ocarina
A slightly different take, cuz I'm weird;
Full Plate +1, Tower shield, Cloak of resistance +1, ring of protection +1. Have the free weapon be a spiked gauntlet.
If you can swap your stats, go with
Str 12(10) [racial penalty]
Dex 11(13) [racial bonus]
Con 15
Int 13
Wis 13
Cha 15(18)[racial and level bonus]
Feats; Fey foundling, Selective channel
Revelation: Channel
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To advance further, continue to Oracle 4. Taking Life Link next level. Then, make your choice, either all in on Paladin or Oracle from there... I'd go Oracle with this setup.
5th level feat: Quick channel
7th: Toughness
You want a Phylactery asap.
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With your current stats? That's a hard call. The perks of the Oradin is that it can heal while fighting rather decently. But... your stats aren't set up for that really, they're all over the place, and your race gives a Str penalty ta boot.
The up to 4 levels of Oracle only option only costs a paladin 1 bab, which isn't that bad considering how much it ramps up your healing capabilities. So it leaves you with nearly the same fighting options as a regular paladin, martially speaking, with just better passive healing.
You're not set up to be a melee paladin though... The more caster centric version might suit your stats better, but, is the lesser optimized method of building the Oradin. (Though still good)
How do the increase of Int and Wis help your build?
Arashi Kirito wrote: How do the increase of Int and Wis help your build? Skills mostly. Will save? It would be a caster build with heavy defenses. And while wearing full plate a +1 from dex is all you can get. So, those were the last numbers left after assigning the rest.
Highest stat to Cha, second highest to Con. That's all that truly matters for this build. The melee version has a high Str too, but all your #s are spread too thin. And the highest Str you could get out the gate is 13. Just doesn't seem feasible with your stats + race. Unless everyone is playing a handicapped race/class combo too. Then you can do whatever you like and it'll turn out fine.
You need at least 15 Str if you want to be competitive. If you insist on playing kitsune, make a dex-charater instead. Your first two feats should be Fey Foundling and Weapon Finesse. Take 4 lvls of Oracle (and not 2 Oracle and 2 paladin) and use the favored class bonus of the Oracle in order to acquire proficiency with the exotic Elven Curve blade. After these oracle lvls, continue with Paladin lvls. You will want to make it agile asap (ask your gm if you could substitute menacing with agile after you present him your build, it is very important in order to function properly), but start with 11 Str at least, so with a belt of Str +2 you can be able to take power attack. Your build should look like this:
STR 13 (11)
DEX 15 (17)
CON 13
INT 12
WIS 11
CHA 15 (17)
Trait: Finding Haleen (so you can have both oracle and paladin as favored classes, absolutely vital for this build), second trait of your choice
1 Oracle Fey Foundling, Revelation: Life Link
2 Oracle
3 Oracle Weapon Finesse, revelation: Channel
4 Oracle Exotic Weapon Prof: Elven Curve Blade
5 Paladin Power Attack
6 Paladin
7 Paladin Greater Mercy
8 Paladin
9 Paladin Swift Kitsune Shapechanger
10 Paladin
11 Paladin Vulpine Pounce
12 Paladin
13 Paladin Realistic Likeness
14 Paladin
15 Paladin Magical Tail
16 Paladin
17 Paladin Extra Lay on Hands
18 Paladin
19 Paladin Extra Lay on Hands
20 Paladin
Falcata is great for a Holy Vindicator build, but for a kitsune oradin to work with such low stats you need a finessable weapon.
I intend to be predominantly healing with a reach weapon for AoO with Menacing. He said the only way to get a different ability on my weapon would be to sell the item at half price and try to buy a new one which to me is a waste of resources. I am the only healer in the party and life link only goes up to 5hp per person linked I believe so that will only help so much at higher lvl's. I was hoping that the damage I could take would increase as we lvl up but I don't believe that's the case. I'll need more powerful healing to keep us alive. We have 3 melee and me and that's it.
Actually, there are only piercing and slashing weapons being used in the group so would you have any idea of a decent bludgeoning weapon? If not then I'll probably pick glaive simply for the reach and visual of the concept.
Hmm this could be an interesting character to say the least. Ive wonder how well an Oradin would work for a while now but never put one on paper. Playing a caster with levels of other classes is always tricky. I personally think it wise to only go 2 levels of paladin and rest oracle. Focus more on casting and staying the back since you have more than enough melee characters in group.
Also as a side note is this character what your dead set on to play as the team healer. There are multiple classes to perform the role of healer. I state this primarily because your adding paladin to the mix. If determined thought to play paladin i do strongly advise asking the DM how he thinks a paladin should be have and what not so you run a lesser risk of falling.
Nothing of what you said will work because you lack the Str to make it work, unless you start with a race that does not penalty Strenght. Healing is really sub-optimal to do in combat, the bulk of healing will be done between combats, and with your two seperate channelling pools that you will eventually have this will not be an issue. Life-link will lose in efficiency as you level up, but you should not feel like you need to make up for it. You will not die from the lack of healing in-battle. Lack of control is what gets you killed and this is not what you are responsible for, as you do not have neither the feats, nor the stat adjustment in order to be an effective controller like a high Str whirl-winding lunging dazing assaulting reach fighter can be.
Unfortunately there is no finessable non-light bludgeonic weapon. Generally strong bludgeonic weapons are the earthbreaker and the dwarven longhammer, but they will not work well in your case for the reasons I mentioned.
Ask him about the agile property after you present him your build. Explain to him first that this is not about min/maxing but about making a kitsune oradin viable.
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On a more general note, if they are 3 melees, what they need most is an arcane support and not a martial healer. A wizard focusing on battlefield control, buffing and de-buffing will be much more useful in the long run. And you can still have a wand of infernal healing for covering the out-of-combat healing needs. The same goes for the Sorcerer and the Summoner too. In addition, the Witch has access to both Infernal healing and cure light wounds.
I've been looking at the two classes more and am leaning towards more of an oracle with armor than a melee with healing. I am going to ask if the magical property can be something put on a piece of armor rather than my weapon (even if it's another random roll) so that I may purchase agile. I intend to get the combat reflexes trait for AoO but otherwise that Paladin aspects are merely for protection/visual concept.
My character's background is based off of actual Kitsune lore and the character is actually going to be working as a guardian to one of the PC's without his knowledge. Basically my ancestor failed to protect an ancestor of the PC after the PC's ancestor had saved his life and my characters motive is to redeem the family/clan's honor in the eyes of his deity. That being said, life steal and the other abilities that the Oradin grant may not be ideal for optimization but it's ideal for the concept in which I'd like to try.
I'm still looking for recommendations on feats but other than that I think I have everything else pretty much drawn up.
I'm thinking 3-4 dip in Paladin and rest in Oracle atm.
[Fey Foundling] is a must have for Life Oracles. You'll thank me later.
There simply isn't anything else that can remotely compare to how much that feat improves this type of character.
Already have that as my first feat. Trying to decide what my second might be atm.
Reason being, while your life link may only heal 5 HP... it is 5 HP per target. Per round.
If you have 3 party members, you can take 15 damage a round from this ability, and you'll need to and want to make your self-heals as powerful as possible. Not only is it more efficient to heal yourself, but it will also save your skin.
Seletive Channel, otherwise you wont be able to channel in combat without healing your enemies.
Healing your enemies is the fastest way to make your party hate you. Not healing them when you need to is the second fastest.
If your aim is not to deal damage with melee, consider going pure oracle, no paladin in-between. This way you will not lose caster lvls and you will have a better progression in your Oracle class abilities. Focus on channeling, buffing and casting in general, with a bow as a backup weapon. Consider variant channeling, especially ale and ruleship, for the additional effects they provide. You will need Fey Foundling, Selective channeling, Versatile Channeller, Improved Channel and Quick Channel. You will not be an Oradin, but you will still be effective.
Check this guide about the alternative channeling.
I honestly wouldn't focus on combat much at all if you're stuck with those rolls and can't finagle an Agile weapon. Two levels of Paladin would help you with saves and heavier armor, but I wouldn't pick up any more unless your GM decides to allow Archetypes. The Oradin build assumes they'll be available. That being said, definitely go with 4 levels of Oracle to start out with, you'll be much more effective that way.
Feats:
1) Fey Foundling
3) Selective Channel
5) Weapon Finesse OR Extra Channel
If you go with Weapon Finesse you'll have to pick up a decent Agile weapon. Note that as a Kitsune you could have profficiency with an Elven Curve Blade at level 4, which is a pretty nice combat option.
You may be better off using spell slots for those occasional times you need to do something offensive though. Up to you.
Healing is going to involve putting Life Link on the entire party and healing damage you take personally. A Wand of Cure Light Wounds is a must buy with your starting cash, you'll burn through it most likely. Drop Life Link and use Channel Energy when your HP gets low.
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Personally, I'd go paladin 3/oracle 1 for Aura of Courage, Divine Health, and Mercy (if there is a barbarian, definitely take the Fatigued mercy; otherwise, possibly look at Sickened). Life mystery (Channel as your revelation) is a great choice for a healer.
14 Str (+1 advancement), 15 Dex, 13 Con, 12 Int, 11 Wis, 17 Cha will work OK. Starting feats of Improved Shield Bash and Two-Weapon Fighting, with a quickdraw shield (+X bashing mithral when you can afford it), will help you both offensively (especially when using Smite Evil) and defensively; in natural form, you can also bite (three attacks on a full attack action, granted at -2/-2/-5). Weapon should probably be a scimitar (see below), until you reach oracle 4 (then switch to either katana or urumi) if using the alternate favored class benefit for a kitsune oracle to pick up "free" Exotic Weapon Proficiencies.
Advancement over the next several levels:
Oracle 2- Quick Draw (so you can switch between melee, ranged, and spellcasting as a free action)
Oracle 3- Revelation (Safe Curing; since you are the primary healer)
Oracle 4- Extra Channel (more channel energy uses for healing)
Paladin 4- +1 Cha; to pick up 1st level paladin spellcasting (bless weapon specifically)
Oracle 5- Improved Critical (Scimitar, Katana, or Urumi; with bless weapon, every attack roll of 15-20 that hits is an automatic critical, not just a threat, against evil foes)
If the campaign will reach higher levels, then:
Oracle 6
Oracle 7- Revelation (Life Link; since you are the primary healer and have enough hit points and curing ability to make this worthwhile), Shield Slam (as a requirement for Shield Master)
Oracle 8- +1 Cha
Paladin 5- Shield Master (removes the -2 penalty from two-weapon fighting for shield bashes and treats the shield's defensive enhancement bonus as an offensive weapon enhancement bonus, saving gold for other areas); Divine Bond isn't too bad, even limited to an additional +1 (or adding defending, flaming, or merciful) on a weapon
Oracle 9
Oracle 10- Bashing Finish (extra shield bash with every critical hit; see notes on Improved Critical above)
With a kitsune it is 14-2=12 Str. With -2/-2/-5 and medium BAB the attack bonus will be pathetic. I do not see it working at all.
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XMorsX wrote: With a kitsune it is 14-2=12 Str. With -2/-2/-5 and medium BAB the attack bonus will be pathetic. I do not see it working at all. See the original post of the thread for the ability score breakdown; it already includes the racial modifications. I was commenting that it's adequate, with a bump at 4th to bring the Str mod to +2 from +1.
At 4th level BAB will be +3, only one less than a straight paladin. At 8th level, using the progression I posted, BAB will be at +7, still only one less than a straight paladin (oops, just noticed it stays at +7 at 9th level, so take paladin 5 at that point for the +8 to qualify for Improved Critical). Note that even at 10th-13th level, BAB is only two less than a straight paladin (which can be mitigated for the most part using divine favor, greater magic weapon, Divine Bond, Smiting, etc.); also note that I'm not advocating taking Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, but rather Bashing Finish which gives additional attacks at full BAB (and Shield Master removes the two-weapon fighting penalty to the attacks with the shield).
Finally, note the original posters intent: "the character is intended to help survivability more than deal massive damage."
It's a pity that the Sacred Shield paladin archetype doesn't combine with most others, as it seems a nice thematic fit otherwise. As it stands, I would consider the Sacred Servant archetype instead. Admittedly, this works best if you do not plan to go into the Holy Vindicator prestige class, but that one's very much focused on challeling. A LoH paladin benefits more from Sacred Servant, I feel.
Dragonchess Player wrote: XMorsX wrote: With a kitsune it is 14-2=12 Str. With -2/-2/-5 and medium BAB the attack bonus will be pathetic. I do not see it working at all. See the original post of the thread for the ability score breakdown; it already includes the racial modifications. I was commenting that it's adequate, with a bump at 4th to bring the Str mod to +2 from +1.
At 4th level BAB will be +3, only one less than a straight paladin. At 8th level, using the progression I posted, BAB will be at +7, still only one less than a straight paladin (oops, just noticed it stays at +7 at 9th level, so take paladin 5 at that point for the +8 to qualify for Improved Critical). Note that even at 10th-13th level, BAB is only two less than a straight paladin (which can be mitigated for the most part using divine favor, greater magic weapon, Divine Bond, Smiting, etc.); also note that I'm not advocating taking Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, but rather Bashing Finish which gives additional attacks at full BAB (and Shield Master removes the two-weapon fighting penalty to the attacks with the shield).
Finally, note the original posters intent: "the character is intended to help survivability more than deal massive damage." I am sorry for the mistake, I didn't thought that you included the stat increase at 4th lvl. Still, I find 14 Str to little in order to function properly in melee combat. How do you get 2 feats at 1st lvl? Anyway, with Shield Master needing TWF, shield slam and improved shield bash, along BAB +11, it will come too late in order to be worthwhile, until then he will suffer too much in melee combat. Without Power Attack his attacks will be mediocre, but he cannot really support Power Attack with such a low Strenght. You also do not have Fey Foundling, which can make a tremendous difference in the long run. This feat chain is baring access to other important feats too, like channeling feats, greater mercy and extra lay in hands.
With the last quote in mind, and with the low starting Strenght, I suggested Arashi to make a full Oracle focusing on Channeling instead. He will be an even better healer than an Oradin, with the disadvantage that he will not have many actions for dealing damage, which is something that with these stats cannot be realisticaly achieved anyway. Aassimars make the best channeling Oracles, but Kitsunes are also decent because of the Cha bonus. Alternative channeling is not needed if healing is the primary focus. And a channeling caster support is more useful to a melee party than a tanky knight failing at drawing aggro with its below average damage.
Morse I'm going with your build btw. Any advice on items? I have the curved blade with agile and have 5,600 left to spend. Haven't bought anything besides the sword so far.
edit: Well, your build sortof. I'm probably going to take more oracle than paladin in order to have enough healing capabilities at higher lvls and will most likely rely on healing more than damage. Might take a feat or something that doubles crit range unless I have to delve in multiple feats for it. I'll have to do a little research bc I'm new to this but I believe I saw a feat along those lines.
It is generaly more efficient to make your weapon keen or buy a Scabbard of Keen Edges than spending a feat on Improved Critical.
As I said many times before, the beauty of this build is that you can do serious healing in-battle without sacrificing damage. If you intend to take more lvls in Oracle and you do not care about DPR, you might as well skip paladin entirelly and go with a pure channelling oracle. But remember that Paladin also has the channel energy feature that scales with his lvl, so if you find yourself needing more in-battle healing you can just take Selective Channeling and start channelling in-battle as a Paladin, without needing more Oracle lvls. Realistic Likeness, Magical Tail and Extra Lay on Hands are all optional feats. You could instead take Selective Channeling and Quick Channel in order to be able to Channel and heal effectively in combat.
As far as items are concearned:
I assume that you have already calculated the +1 agile elven curve blade and that you have 5600 left to spend.
MW Chain Shirt: 250g
Belt of Mighty Str +2: 4000g (this is needed for power attack next lvl)
Kit, Paladin's: 11g
Cloak of resistance +1: 1000g
Total: 5261g
Your next items should probably be a Handy Haversack and a Mithral Agile Breastplate. Also, you should aim for a Belt of physical might +2 Str +2 Dex
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XMorsX wrote: How do you get 2 feats at 1st lvl? The character is starting at 4th level (paladin 3/oracle 1): one feat at 1st, one feat at 3rd.
For offense, like with a two-weapon fighting rogue with Sneak Attack, the idea is to increase the number attacks to maximize Smite Evil. Against minions and non-evil foes, the character acts in more of a support role with Lay On Hands, Channel Positive Energy, etc. but can still be a secondary combatant with good defenses.
Dragonchess Player wrote: XMorsX wrote: How do you get 2 feats at 1st lvl? The character is starting at 4th level (paladin 3/oracle 1): one feat at 1st, one feat at 3rd.
For offense, like with a two-weapon fighting rogue with Sneak Attack, the idea is to increase the number attacks to maximize Smite Evil. Against minions and non-evil foes, the character acts in more of a support role with Lay On Hands, Channel Positive Energy, etc. but can still be a secondary combatant with good defenses. I see. This will really come online at higher lvls though, when he will have enough smite evil to do it consistently (and I doubt he will ever have enough without oath of vengence) and of course in order to have all the required feats for two-weapon fighting effectively (namely Shield Master). Even then he will run into the issue that enemies that are withdrawing take away his full-attack opportunities. Fighters usually pair TWF with trip, stand still, dazing assault and at higher lvls staggering / stunning critical in order to avoid it, but Oradin will not have the feats for it. And of course, his low Str is counter-intuitive to the static bonuses needed for efective TWFing. These, along with the fact that you do not have room for Fey Foundling and Channeling feats, make me shy away from the potential of TWFing.
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Mostly, it depends on how often the character can use Smite Evil. In "typical" campaigns, where evil foes are often encountered, adding +3 or more (the character's Cha bonus) to all attack rolls vs. the Smite target counteracts the two-weapon fighting penalty against two or three tough opponents (who may also take x2 level damage on the first hit) per day pretty well; and the deflection bonus to AC (again, based on Cha instead of paladin level) isn't bad either. Or the character can just two-hand the scimitar and do without the extra attack and AC from the shield if the penalty on attack rolls is a concern. Bless at the start of a fight can boost the entire party's attack rolls by +1; divine favor can completely counteract the two-weapon fighting penalty at CL 6; both these stack with the Smite Evil Bonus, too. Again, the original poster isn't trying to be the main damage dealer/tank (although the character has good defenses and is strong against a limited number of evil opponents).
With Quick Draw (the feat I suggest taking at 5th character level), the character can switch to being an archer (or a two-weapon fighting thrower) if the enemies start withdrawing and still make full attack actions. Granted, lack of Precise Shot and Rapid Shot means the character isn't as good as a dedicated archer, but then the typical two-handed weapon damage dealer/tank isn't very impressive in ranged combat either.
Oracle Channel Positive Energy, plus paladin Lay On Hands/Mercy, plus knowing all cure spells as a spontaneous caster, plus use of healing wands without needing Use Magic Device should be able to easily handle the job as a primary healer. Can act as a secondary combatant in melee or ranged or (with the appropriate spells known) as a party/self buffer, as well. Defenses are high for survivability ("Take out the casters first").
Arashi Kirito wrote: Str:15(13) (-2 racial)
Dex:13(15) (+2 racial)
This just kills me every time I see it. It's like you're making a dwarf bard who dumps CON to pay for raising CHA. Quote: 1 Oracle Fey Foundling, Revelation: Life Link
2 Oracle
3 Oracle Weapon Finesse, revelation: Channel
4 Oracle Exotic Weapon Prof: Elven Curve Blade
5 Paladin Power Attack
Now compare it to a 5th level paladin on a mount, or a fighter with twice as many feats who's about half saved up for Gloves of Dueling, or a caster with 3rd-level spells.
This poor guy is sucking -4 damage on every smite hit versus a straight class paladin (and has only one smite instead of two), meaning he's actually worse in a boss fight than a halfling pally 5th armed with a kukri.
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