Divine Hunter question


Advice


I am playing a Divine hunter in a campaign, though i just ran across a really interesting delema. A paladin views fighting an enemy with a range weapons as immoral and to be used as a last resort, but the divine hunter uses it as their primary form of attack. So in theory would that make the Divine Hunter a Neutral Good Paladin, due to haveing a slighly lax Code of Conduct than that of a standard paladin?

Any advice and opinion on this would be greatly appreciated because haveing to attone for constantly fighting unmorally would become bothersome.

Sovereign Court

As long as you aren't doing anything evil, fighting with bow and arrows is fair game.


*confused*

Your playing an archetype of the paladin, thus you're a paladin. Period.
Since this archetype focusses explicitely on ranged combat I see no reason for atonement at all.

Also, it has been stated before that you're either a paladin which rules-wise is LG or you're something else but NOT a paladin; thus you cannot wriggle free from being good AND lawful (if you ever intended that).

While I see your point, enforce it as home rule when I GM and adhere to this issue when playing a pally myself, it's not RAW in Pathfinder as even the smite evil ability of the vanilla paladin works on ranged attacks.

Ruyan.


RuyanVe wrote:

Since this archetype focusses explicitely on ranged combat I see no reason for atonement at all.

That was the main sorce of my confusion, i wasnt trying to wiggle free of the Lawful side, it just seemed out of place that the use of range weapons was immoral to paladins yet they had an archtype that used it. But Because that archetype doesn't view ranged combat as immoral makes the attonement unessecary?

Shadow Lodge

Be Lawful Good. Use a bow. Don't see it as dishonorable because it really isn't. Just don't do things like snipe and make sure the enemy can't reach you and kill people who surrender [I have seen a paladin archer do this before. He fell from grace quicker than an elephant from a sapling].

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

Xemnas wrote:
I am playing a Divine Hunter in a campaign, though I just ran across a really interesting dilemma. A paladin views fighting an enemy with a ranged weapon as immoral and to be used as a last resort, but the Divine Hunter uses it as their primary form of attack. So in theory would that make the Divine Hunter a Neutral Good Paladin, due to having a slighly lax Code of Conduct than that of a standard paladin?

Although all are Lawful Good, not every paladin shares the same code of ethics. To draw upon paladins found in Golarion as examples, a paladin of Iomedae (Goddess of Martial Valor) vows to lead his allies into battle against evil and refuses to retreat unless all his allies have fallen back. A paladin of Sarenrae (Goddess of the Sun and Mercy) vows to accept any foes' honorable surrender and prefers to avoid slaying her enemies when possible. A paladin of Shelyn (Goddess of Love and Beauty) vows never to begin a fight, resorting to diplomacy as long as possible.

As these examples illustrate, paladins may have very different ideas regarding their role as warriors. Some may regard ranged weapons as a craven form of fighting unworthy of their order. Others lack that particular aspect to their code of ethics.


Who is the LG god that is determined to destroy all evil no matter the cost? Im tired of being a pansy and want to smite the ever loving daylgihts out of some baddies then rain death on them from the sky as my arrows blot out the sun...in honor of my chosen deity of course.

Sovereign Court

Xemnas wrote:
A paladin views fighting an enemy with a range weapons as immoral and to be used as a last resort

Where did you get this from? I can remember no such stipulation. Seems more like a Barbarian creed than a Paladin one, if you substitute "cowardly" for immoral.

EsperMagic wrote:
Who is the LG god that is determined to destroy all evil no matter the cost? Im tired of being a pansy and want to smite the ever loving daylgihts out of some baddies then rain death on them from the sky as my arrows blot out the sun...in honor of my chosen deity of course.

Sounds like Iomedae to me.


As long as that weapon is constantly smiting the wicked, I don't think the paladin code really demands any certain weapon type. You're proficient with all martial weapons for a reason.


EsperMagic wrote:
Who is the LG god that is determined to destroy all evil no matter the cost? Im tired of being a pansy and want to smite the ever loving daylgihts out of some baddies then rain death on them from the sky as my arrows blot out the sun...in honor of my chosen deity of course.

That's called evil (plenty of choice of patron deity available). Attempts to call it otherwise is wriggling. Yes, even Ragathiel.


Reynard_the_fox wrote:
Xemnas wrote:
A paladin views fighting an enemy with a range weapons as immoral and to be used as a last resort

Where did you get this from? I can remember no such stipulation. Seems more like a Barbarian creed than a Paladin one, if you substitute "cowardly" for immoral.

DnD 3.e stated that A Paladin holds stealth, subterfuge, attack from the rear, missile weapons and especially poison as weapons of last resort.

Basically stating that those would be viewed "Immoral" unless absolutly neccisary

Scarab Sages

Xemnas wrote:
Reynard_the_fox wrote:
Xemnas wrote:
A paladin views fighting an enemy with a range weapons as immoral and to be used as a last resort

Where did you get this from? I can remember no such stipulation. Seems more like a Barbarian creed than a Paladin one, if you substitute "cowardly" for immoral.

DnD 3.e stated that A Paladin holds stealth, subterfuge, attack from the rear, missile weapons and especially poison as weapons of last resort.

Basically stating that those would be viewed "Immoral" unless absolutly neccisary

That was D&D, this is Pathfinder. The code has changed.

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.


Makarion wrote:
EsperMagic wrote:
Who is the LG god that is determined to destroy all evil no matter the cost? Im tired of being a pansy and want to smite the ever loving daylgihts out of some baddies then rain death on them from the sky as my arrows blot out the sun...in honor of my chosen deity of course.
That's called evil (plenty of choice of patron deity available). Attempts to call it otherwise is wriggling. Yes, even Ragathiel.

It's evil to be on a quest to eradicate evil? Now I've heard it all.


Xemnas wrote:
Reynard_the_fox wrote:
Xemnas wrote:
A paladin views fighting an enemy with a range weapons as immoral and to be used as a last resort

Where did you get this from? I can remember no such stipulation. Seems more like a Barbarian creed than a Paladin one, if you substitute "cowardly" for immoral.

DnD 3.e stated that A Paladin holds stealth, subterfuge, attack from the rear, missile weapons and especially poison as weapons of last resort.

Basically stating that those would be viewed "Immoral" unless absolutly neccisary

Yeah....those rules no longer exist, at least not in that form.

Stealth is still probably not a paladin thing (at least hiding the shadows to try to get the drop on an unaware opponent), and poison is certainly against the code. But missile weapons are fine. And there is no facing in pathfinder, so you can't attack someone from the rear.


Claxon wrote:
Stealth is still probably not a paladin thing (at least hiding the shadows to try to get the drop on an unaware opponent)

Why not? Are paladins not allowed to use tactics?


EsperMagic wrote:
Makarion wrote:
EsperMagic wrote:
Who is the LG god that is determined to destroy all evil no matter the cost? Im tired of being a pansy and want to smite the ever loving daylgihts out of some baddies then rain death on them from the sky as my arrows blot out the sun...in honor of my chosen deity of course.
That's called evil (plenty of choice of patron deity available). Attempts to call it otherwise is wriggling. Yes, even Ragathiel.
It's evil to be on a quest to eradicate evil? Now I've heard it all.

It's a question of perception. The mindless slaughter of anyone inclined to evil, even if they have not actually committed any evil deeds (in other words, anyone that "pings evil" without any witnessed evil actions) would be considered evil in most societies, yes. But if you take your justifications solely from a higher power (say, a deity), than you may well feel justified. Until the local court of justice hangs you, of course. And I don't think they would hang you solely for breaking the law - but for being heinously immoral. The excessive example, of course, would be kobold babies. What better way to stop future evil than by killing them before they get there? And they are 0.25 xp each, too.

Scarab Sages

Makarion wrote:
The excessive example, of course, would be kobold babies. What better way to stop future evil than by killing them before they get there? And they are 0.25 xp each, too.

They are a race of evil humanoids who worship evil gods and aspire to be like evil dragons. They would face a life of unbearable hardship if brought to an orphanage or a slow painful death of starvation if left alone, and they would grow to become an enemy of good and damn their souls. A quick and painless death could be seen as a mercy to them.

[/devil's advocate]


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Jarl wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Stealth is still probably not a paladin thing (at least hiding the shadows to try to get the drop on an unaware opponent)
Why not? Are paladins not allowed to use tactics?

It depends on how you use stealth and your GM and his interpretation of what "acting with honor" is. For instance, I would allow you to sneak past guards to avoid combat with them. However, I would not allow a paladin to hide in a corner and wait for the enemy to walk over and then try to kill them while they are unaware and unable to react. To me that is not acting in a honorable way. But as I said, there will be table variation.


The idea that all paladins consider a bow to be dishonorable is ridiculous. While many knights did consider the bow to be a peasants weapon and as such dishonorable to use personal combat. Not all paladins are knights. A paladin of Erastil will in no way consider using a bow to be dishonorable. Considering he is the god of hunting even using stealth and attacking from cover is probably ok as long as it is done during war against a known enemy.

Another thing to consider is that there are more cultures than just European. A Japanese samurai could be built as a paladin instead of the samurai class. The traditional weapon of a samurai is not only the katana, but also the bow.

The point is that while some paladins may look at the bow as a dishonorable weapon that is not the case with all of them. If you are playing an archetype that focus on the bow your god and culture obviously does not follow these restrictions.


Can the paladin hide in the corner and then say something to the enemy before he shoots it with an arrow to the knee?

If what is said is pithy or a catch phrase change your vote?

Shadow Lodge

Makarion wrote:
EsperMagic wrote:
Who is the LG god that is determined to destroy all evil no matter the cost? Im tired of being a pansy and want to smite the ever loving daylgihts out of some baddies then rain death on them from the sky as my arrows blot out the sun...in honor of my chosen deity of course.
That's called evil (plenty of choice of patron deity available). Attempts to call it otherwise is wriggling. Yes, even Ragathiel.

Ragathiel is more of the "I'm willing to die for the cause" than "I'm willing to sacrifice you and all of your friends to destroy <what I see as> evil". He is the Empyreal Lord that ascended, earning his place and the respect of all the other angels and Empyreal Lords. He is also known for leading the battle straight into the Avernus himself, and nearly killed the Infernal Duke. Unlike other LG crusader patrons, (um, um), he doesn't just send off others to do stuff for him.

Scarab Sages

Max Smithson wrote:

Can the paladin hide in the corner and then say something to the enemy before he shoots it with an arrow to the knee?

I used to be a paladin, but I shot an adventurer in the knee.


Imbicatus wrote:
Max Smithson wrote:

Can the paladin hide in the corner and then say something to the enemy before he shoots it with an arrow to the knee?

I used to be a paladin, but I shot an adventurer in the knee, from a dark corner.

Fixed the last part.

Scarab Sages

You know those Paladins of Sarenrae have curved swords. Curved. Swords.

Silver Crusade

Bah. Real paladins follow Iomeade :P

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