what would you do? What things should I look for in stating up a god? It isn't a pathfinder god but i'll be using pathfinder domains and subdomains.
I know there are no pathfinder books but are there any 3.0/3.5 books that give advice or have rules that i could move over?
-thanks
Personally, I don't believe gods should be given stats (things that can harm gods are beyond mortal, and imo beyond what PCs are supposed to represent in Pathfinder).
That being said, Deities and Demigods is a 3.0 book that indeed gives stats to gods. As I recall, the gods listed are typically level 20 in two classes, with 10 levels in a third class. I could be wrong. Either way, they came off to me as kind of boring.
You might look into the free RPG Mythender, where the PCs play as godslayers. The stats don't convert to Pathfinder, but it can be a great source of inspiration as to the power and awesome might of the gods (as well as what can be expected of those who challenge them).
If you're not looking to have PCs combat gods, then you don't need stats for them - they can have whatever abilities you feel are appropriate for them.
Accually I was going to play around with a different idea, that being the players playing gods, not mortals
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm
Those two links contain the rules they used to create gods in 3.0. As a general rule, gods had 20 outsider hd, plus 40-60 levels in various classes, 20 at a go.
we tend to enjoy screwing around so im hoping it won't get boring. Besides, we all have infalted idea's of ourselves, playing gods would be easy ;)
Anyway, when we get borde we will stop. We may not even play it, its just an idea im tossing around at the moment.
Yeah, if it's a god, it doesn't need stats. It's a plot device at best.
Realistically:
Plot (Ex): You lose.
If you want to mess around, then as I recall several of the demon lords' CR were stated to be in the mid 30s, and Cthulhu was 30. Gods would be CR 50 at the very least, probably around 70 or 80, since they're supposed to be to Cthulhu what Cthulhu is to a commoner.
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Q: How is saying "gods should never be statted" helpful?
A: It's not.
To answer your question, Schiffer, the links that Kain Darkwind posted are a good place to start. Don't feel bound by them, especially for PC gods. Think about what seems too weak, and what seems too much, and aim for the middle. Unless of course you want to be over the top. :P
Q: How is saying "gods should never be statted" helpful?
A: It's not.
I think the concept of 'don't waste your time' is helpful, myself.
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3.X already statted up gods in a book that was already mentioned. But
If it has stats, you can kill it.
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I think the concept of 'don't waste your time' is helpful, myself.Q: How is saying "gods should never be statted" helpful?
A: It's not.
I think it's safe to assume that when someone asks how to do something they don't think doing that thing is a waste of time. If you disagree, don't waste yours.
Also Schiffer, another thing that might help is the Genius Games Godling supplements. Lets the players grow into their divine power gently. I'm considering a game where characters are gestalted with a godling type to simulate just such a thing.
The level/mythic system does not come close to describing a god. Mythic tries to come close but still falls short. The first thing that comes to mind are things like the natural ability to treat all standard actions as though they were affected by time stop. Another ability by evidence of various "divine" feats/spells/etc would be forcing rerolls but for a god it would probably be able to add plus or minus up to 20 as determined by the god. The at-will ability of create greater demiplane except it's automatically permanent and at a caster level of 100 or so. Never being caught flat-footed, period. Can't be flanked, period. Stuff like that.
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Something to consider is how powerful you want your god to be. There are different examples of gods and different power levels and it isn't unheard of for mortals to fight gods. One mistake a lot of the naysayers are making is that they make the assumption that Gods are some how omnipotent and infallible. Truthfully, if you look at non-Abrahamic religions, you will find that this isn't the case. Norse pantheon is a good example of this, with many of the gods destined to die come Ragnarok as well as the death of Balder. The Greek Pantheon is rife with gods outdoing each other and sneaking like some Machiavellian court. In media, especially video games, there is the obvious God of War series. But a less over-the-top game to use as an example would be Dark Souls, where you start off as a lowly undead warrior and rise up the ranks of power by collecting souls. Soon, you're powerful enough to take on the very gods, such as Gravelord Nito and Lord Gwyn; beings that literally created the very universe you live in.
And in Golarion, it is possible for a god to die. People forget that Lamashtu was a power Demon Lord that was able to kill the deity Curchanus and ascend to godhood. Mind you, the most powerful demon lords are CR 30 (Pazuzu and Nocticula are both CR 30) and in particular, Pazuzu can still vex the Demon Goddess. In addition, the Four Horsemen were able to not only defeat their god-like Fifth Horseman, but actually strike a semblance of fear into Pharasma and force her to send souls to Abaddon. And they theoretically only have the strength of Demon Lords/Archdevils (CR 25-30). An Azlanti god and goddess were killed by aboleth magic (see Mythic Realms) and Aroden died. So we do have a precedent of gods being killed by lesser beings. Some people may balk at the idea of "if you stat it, it will die," but personally, we see enough deicide in mythology that I've come to embrace it.
So perhaps instead of asking the OP to not waste his time, it's probably better to not waste one's own time posting in a topic with unhelpful comments. Besides, we play Pathfinder, where we roll dices and playact as elves and dwarves that fight imaginary creatures to save people that don't exist. Let's not pretend that our hobby isn't us wasting time ;)
To the OP, I'd suggest looking at the mythic rules and going from there. Definitely look at Little Red Goblin's Legendary Levels for some rules and inspiration. Good ruleset to use and Pathfinder compatible.
I suggest you make them 25 point but heroes, pehaps gestalt, and start by saying that morals that auto win against morals. Give them a signature item each that will improved with levels and you are set to go.
3.X already statted up gods in a book that was already mentioned. But ** spoiler omitted **Just a word of warning.
then again there were also things like the anti-osmium bomb back then.
what would you do? What things should I look for in stating up a god? It isn't a pathfinder god but i'll be using pathfinder domains and subdomains.
I know there are no pathfinder books but are there any 3.0/3.5 books that give advice or have rules that i could move over?
-thanks
I'd start with the 3.0 Deities and Demigods and add Mythic tiers to the gods. I would add the "Immortal" Mythic Abillity, but change it though only beings with Divine Ranks(s. Deity and Demigods) or a certain plot device can kill them.
I also like beatable gods, Diomedes made Ares and Aphrodite look like chumps(with a little help from Athena)in the Ilias.
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Yeah like people mentioned CR 30 or even under often challenge gods and win. Of course, I imagine that it involves a lot of preparation as in going on epic quests to find the thing/item that would actually even hurt a god in the first place.
I would like to remind people that we have children of demigods running around (Nephilim CR 6 or 7?) I forget.
As for stating gods...frankly do whatever you want, as how much power the gods have is up to you in the end in your setting. I would say playing Demigods would actually be more interesting Level 20 with 10 tiers and you would actually get to do things that most people don't do. Like Fighting A Balor Lord + Baphomet at the same time.
Literal gods should be unique.
Something like magic missile shouldn't be able to impact them no matter who casts it, so you're looking at something beyond merely having Spell Resistance.
A commoner should never have a 5% chance to make a save against something like a god using dominate person, so giving them even ludicrously high save DCs for their abilities also doesn't make sense.
In my humble opinion, done right there should be (at least) three essential layers of statblocks. Normal adventurers, demigods, and gods. Gods should be omnipotent towards normals and similarly immune to them. Demigods should be difficult but not impossible for normals to harm and demigods should have a very hard time harming gods, but not impossibly so. The idea here being that typical PCs would have to ascend to becoming demigods before having a chance to truly interact with gods.
Mythic may or may not be adaptable into the demigod role.
What gods are depend on the setting, in many settings a solar could easily pass for a god.
In demigods and deities 3.0 there were some guidelines for creating gods, powers and immunities though. Not a bad place to start.
Any look at mythology shows the gods to be very fallible, and human. In many cases experiencing defeat at the hands of mortals.
Not only are gods statable, they are very killable. I've actually come to be of the opinion that Deities and Demi-Gods stated the gods to be to powerful, or at least have far to many levels.
I stated up Mystra once, yes 3.5 not pathfinder, sue me.
She had a 70 cha, 40 str, 50 con, 60 wis and 70 int and 60 dex. She could cast ANY spell regardless of school, I mean, she is the mistress of magic. Furthermore she could add 1 metamagic to any spell for free, not increasing level or cast time. Infinite casting per day. She could sack her move action to either cast any movement based spell such as teleportation, or add up to 3 more metamagics to any spell she cast.
DR 30, non negatable. SR 90. Constant BLUR and self refreshing Mirror image, with a contingency for Miracle to resurrect herself in celestia if she died.
Now i know there was more but this was from memory. Furthermore the group did actually kill her, despite he impossible seeming abilities and stats. The group of 6 was reduced to 2 by the end of the fight, with 1 not being ressurectable even through wish. My group had been warned. Ironically the two that lived were both magic users, a hexblade and a Spell theif. Which kind of boned the two of them afterwards, since they could no longer access magic anyway, heh.
Now, in theory, yes she should not have been able to be defeated by the group, but our group has a rule of, if it takes the DM more then 30 seconds to declare an action/twist/plot/attack then it's not mdoable, so you have to think fast. Obviously Mystra would be faster, smarter and more powerful then i could think of, and the group managed to beat her, despite my best efforts. Then again, i never made a good caster and this could be the proof lol.
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I stated up Mystra once, yes 3.5 not pathfinder, sue me.
There seems to be this mistaken impression that anyone here, including myself, gives a damm about what people do in their home games. The only reason I ever give an opinion on such activities IS BECAUSE PEOPLE KEEP COMING TO THE BOARDS TO ASK FOR ONE. BECAUSE APPARENTLY THERE'S A WHOLE SEGMENT OF WOULD-BE GM'S WHO DON'T HAVE THE STONES TO TIE THEIR OWN SHOES UNLESS THEY GET A BOARD CONSENSUS ON THE MECHANICS TO DO SO.
/rant mode off.
Well, perhaps instead of ranting you should read the original post more. Considering he asked "what would you do" I explained what i did. Which, i am fairly certain is an acceptable response to his post. Therefor, turn down your volume before you get the thread locked, take a breather, have some ice cream, and return with a better attitude.
I stated up Mystra once, yes 3.5 not pathfinder, sue me.
There seems to be this mistaken impression that anyone here, including myself, gives a damm about what people do in their home games. The only reason I ever give an opinion on such activities IS BECAUSE PEOPLE KEEP COMING TO THE BOARDS TO ASK FOR ONE. BECAUSE APPARENTLY THERE'S A WHOLE SEGMENT OF WOULD-BE GM'S WHO DON'T HAVE THE STONES TO TIE THEIR OWN SHOES UNLESS THEY GET A BOARD CONSENSUS ON THE MECHANICS TO DO SO.
/rant mode off.
Meta keep this to friendly advice, ok.
Technically i dont think Mystra died during the time of troubles, her death is pretty much what caused it. Tossed magic all out of whack, and what are gods any way, then magical beings? Her death shattered the weave, which is to say, all the order that makes up magic. But, yes, Forgotten realms should definatly have stuff on it.
You're talking about Greek mythic heroes. None of them ever took down a god, but they did drive a couple of them off of the fields of the Trojan War. But that was because Aphrodite wasn't suited for war, and Ares is at heart, a coward of a bully.Any look at mythology shows the gods to be very fallible, and human. In many cases experiencing defeat at the hands of mortals.
Herakles did kill the River God Achelos. He also looked pretty dominant compared to most Olympians during the Gigantomachie, killing Porphyrion the giants leader and lots of other giants. The dude was rying to rape Hera, therefore she was helpless against him too.
Maybe the best tipp for the OP would be to look at the mamount of optimisation in his group. Do they have some CRB-only guys barely on the level of the Iconics or are they amasing feats from 3.x splatbooks, creating insane Gestaltbuilds?
Fun trick: Change the economy.
Gods are more powerful than mortals, this is a given generally. In the game, people make a good effort to make gods super powerful with big numbers and whatnot... but they are still going to lose in a fight to lesser beings, because of the economy. Plain and simple, economy is king.
What to do? Well, change it.
Lesser gods get 2 turns per round. Normal gods get 3, and greater gods get 4+.
Just have em roll initiative twice (or more), and take all the results.
They're gods...
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Technically i dont think Mystra died during the time of troubles, her death is pretty much what caused it. Tossed magic all out of whack, and what are gods any way, then magical beings? Her death shattered the weave, which is to say, all the order that makes up magic. But, yes, Forgotten realms should definatly have stuff on it.
Time of troubles is the time that gods were banished to the Faerun in mortal forms. Mystra died at the hands of a guardian deity guarding the stairway to 'heaven', one of the few deities that wasn't banished.
The magic going out off wack was caused by mystra not being there to tend the weave. All in all a fun time.
Annoying orange, can you cite that book/series? I might need to read/reread it :)
Annoying orange, can you cite that book/series? I might need to read/reread it :)
The Time of Troubles was the topic of the novels Shadowdale, Tantras, and Waterdeep. Also read the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy, as that's what various heroes (and Elminster) were doing at that time.
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Gods in most ancient myths are treated more like superheroes then divine entities, i.e. humans, only more powerful.
When you start getting into the abstract powers of gods, and non-finite natures, it kind of obviates the classical view of gods. I mean, Saranrae cracked the world open with a slice of her sword. You can't stat that up, and no spell exists to duplicate the effect.
I'd also like to point out that the Olympians are basically divine titans, and the Norse Gods are basically divine giants that favor mankind. That's a bit different then the partially profound nature assigned to PF gods.
If you want some kicking divine stats, check out the Scarred Lands...the avatars of the gods there are pretty buff. The paladin one gets his Smite on all attacks...
==Aelryinth
Fun trick: Change the economy.
Gods are more powerful than mortals, this is a given generally. In the game, people make a good effort to make gods super powerful with big numbers and whatnot... but they are still going to lose in a fight to lesser beings, because of the economy. Plain and simple, economy is king.
What to do? Well, change it.
Lesser gods get 2 turns per round. Normal gods get 3, and greater gods get 4+.
Just have em roll initiative twice (or more), and take all the results.
They're gods...
I did this myself, except one initiative roll and they got to act at -5, -10 and -15 in addition to the original. (For greater gods, demi gods got to act at -10, intermediates got to act at -5, -10)
I think it similarly represents what we see here.