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I have never been a fan on having a predetermined list of skills that a class can take. While it was far more harsh in 3.5 and lightened up some in the Pathfinder rule set, it still feels a little to constricting for me. One of the house rules I have used since the beginning of 3.0 was to allow each character no matter their class to pick their own class skills based on the number of skills listed in the class description. If the class had 8 skills listed then they could pick any 8 skills they wanted for their "class skills".
Now in Pathfinder I see some of the skills have been combined, removed, altered and even some added. With these changes I noticed some small changes to the skills listed in each of the class descriptions. I am going to be starting a new campaign this Friday and I was rewriting my house rule list and thought of this idea:
Each character begins with a number of "class skills" equal to the number of skills listed in the class description -2. They are allowed to pick additional skills to be added to the "class skill" list based on their Intelligence modifier. Penalties to this Attribute do NOT affect the number of skills taken.
I would be very interested in feedback from other GM's as well as players if they like or dislike this idea... or if anyone recommends an adjustment in some way.
This could be good for RP and character background, allowing more customization.
However, if the players lean closer toward doing thing more for a mechanical benefit, I predict:
- Everyone will have perception as a class skill.
- Knowledge: arcana, dungeoneering, local, nature, planes, and religion will be on many more lists of class skills.
- Knowledge: engineering, geography, history, and nobility will be many fewer lists of class skills.
- Sense Motive will be on many more lists of class skills.
- Use Magic Devise will be on many more lists of class skills.
Is this taking into account things like sorcerer bloodlines or cavalier orders which grant additional class skills?
Not trying to put you down, just pointing out how some min/maxers might use this to their advantage. Not a huge deal, but still something to keep in mind since there are more "must have" skill in PF that previous editions of D&D.
Also, this could negatively impact classes that typically start with a low intelligence, like fighters and clerics. They'd likely not have a high enough INT to break even on their number of class skills.
Conversely, wizards would be stepping on the "skilled" classes toes even more by being able to choose 14+INT class skills (unless you're counting all knowledge skills as one skill, but that doesn't seem right considering some classes have more knowledge skills than others).
Things that grant more class skills should grant something else in your campaigns.
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Is this taking into account things like sorcerer bloodlines or cavalier orders which grant additional class skills?Not trying to put you down, just pointing out how some min/maxers might use this to their advantage. Not a huge deal, but still something to keep in mind since there are more "must have" skill in PF that previous editions of D&D.
Also, this could negatively impact classes that typically start with a low intelligence, like fighters and clerics. They'd likely not have a high enough INT to break even on their number of class skills.
Conversely, wizards would be stepping on the "skilled" classes toes even more by being able to choose 14+INT class skills (unless you're counting all knowledge skills as one skill, but that doesn't seem right considering some classes have more knowledge skills than others).
I completely agree with what you are saying and to some point that is what I am expecting. To some degree the players will use this as a chance to min/max, but at the same time it allows a little more to background flavor in character development. Why shouldn't a fighter have Perception? Sleight of hand? I am imaging a fighter based around Bronn from Game of Thrones would use both those skills.
You are right that not having a 14+ Int would "hurt" the character by not having an equal number of skills as a base class, but they would be able to pick what skills they want. Would having Perception at 1st level for a fighter be worth missing 2 other class skills? Maybe at lower levels.
I haven't considered other features that give additional skills, I will have to look into that.
True Wizards would have a lot of class skills to start, but then I have always been of the opinion that Wizards should have a fair amount of Class Skills. They are the worst hit by the number of progression points that I think it balances. They have access to many skills through a life spent with their nose in books researching but with a focus on the magic arts their practice of those skills is limited.
What I have so far looks like this:
Alchemist (12+Int)
Barbarian (9+Int)
Bard (22+Int)
Cavalier (8+Int)
Cleric (11+Int)
Druid (11+Int)
Fighter (9+Int)
Inquisitor (18+Int)
Monk (13+Int)
Oracle (7+Int)
Paladin (8+Int)
Ranger (13+Int)
Rogue (19+Int)
Sorcerer (7+Int)
Summoner (16+Int)
Witch (9+Int)
Wizard (14+Int)
Why not simplify things and just throw out the whole 'class skill' concept in general? Let people spend their skill points where they like, without penalization.
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Why not simplify things and just throw out the whole 'class skill' concept in general? Let people spend their skill points where they like, without penalization.
Its funny the timing of this. I was reading the section for skills over again and the real benefit of getting a +3 to "class skills" if the character has trained them isn't really overpowered if it applied to all skills the character has ranks in. Its a bigger and more noticeable effect at lower levels. A preliminary look at the numbers, by level 5 it doesn't seem overpowered at all.
I'd have thought of Bronn more as a ranger or something over a fighter.
Also the changes to how class skills work in pathfinder makes it a little less critical than 3.x so I think you're system might work easier.
Maybe just let them pick X sjills to get +3 to at character creation, and let them have any skills up to their level in rank.
Another option is to remove the class skills altogether and give everyone 1-3 free skill feats.
I think in pathfinder it is entirely unnecessary to the point it just gimps rogues, everyone can take the skills they are just a bit less good at it.
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This does not seem worth changing for me. Class skills are much less important in pathfinder with only a +3 bonus as opposed to half progression, and you can already add class skills by many methods including traits. Class skills make it easier for a character to be competent at the things their class is traditionally competent in with minimal investment. They don't prevent a character from becoming good at something outside their class specialties.
If you would like more freedom in class skills I would recommend allowing characters to choose an additional number of class skills, either a flat number or based on Int.
Alternatively, I'd recommend simplifying your current system. Designate classes as high, medium, or low skill classes and give them a number of class skills that reflect that. This parallels BAB/HD and casting tiers (4, 6, 9 spell levels).
High skills (20): Bard, rogue, inquisitor
Medium skills (15): Monk, ranger, wizard, summoner
Low skills (10): Barbarian, cavalier, cleric, druid, fighter, oracle, paladin, sorcerer, witch
Alchemist could be either medium or low - maybe low but they all get alchemy? If you're keeping the int bonus to class skills, I'd move the wizard to low, too, because they'll typically start with at least +3 to int and it'll work out about the same.