Stand And Deliver, A merchants perspective


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
I like the idea of a stolen goods flag, but not a trainable 'fence' skill to ignore the flag. Rather, have stolen goods non-marketable at lawful locations.

That makes a lot of sense.

My preferred method would be two pronged.

First, settlements can choose to upgrade the Market building with a Black Market add-on, which allows the direct sale of stolen goods. The trade off would be that each time a sale is made through the Black Market, the settlements corruption index would increase.

Second, settlements can also upgrade the Inn building (for example) with a Fence add-on, which allows properly trained individuals to slowly launder stolen goods back into normal goods. The bandwidth of goods that can be laundered would increase with both player skill and Fence quality.

I wouldn't really like to see stolen goods only being sold in chaotic settlements, rather that there are consequences to it being done in settlements that would normally restrict theft.

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah, something along those lines is another opportunity/cost situation. I like those.


I don't really like the whole idea of distinguishing between stolen goods and regular goods. How can someone tell if something is stolen or not? It just doesn't make sense, and I don't really see how it's beneficial from a game-mechanics standpoint either.

Goblin Squad Member

I think fencing goods should wash away the stolen condition but it shouldn't be a simple matter.

You should have to take them to a specialized facilities and wipe away the identifying marks, which should take time/resources.

Those facilities should be installable in hideouts.

So if the bandits have a nearby hideout you haven't discovered they can go there, clean it up, then run it into town and sell it with an account you don't know about or a disguise. If you are vigilant about keeping your area free of hideouts they'll have to run it all the way to a friendly settlement.

Goblin Squad Member

Just something to further punish and keep The Robber Man down. Although if it were somehow coupled with The Robber Man squeezing more profit for the effort required, it might add to the fun.

Certainly not important for MVP though.

Goblin Squad Member

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Qallz wrote:
I don't really like the whole idea of distinguishing between stolen goods and regular goods. How can someone tell if something is stolen or not? It just doesn't make sense, and I don't really see how it's beneficial from a game-mechanics standpoint either.

If a merchant comes into town and says they were robbed if 1000 gold bars with their company's mark on them, or a specific sword that matches a certain description then when someone comes into town with bars that bear that mark or a sword that fits that description it will be suspect.

Real life fences specialize in making sure the goods they receive are hard to identify, and go to customers that won't know or care that they are stolen.

It would be incredibly difficult to simulate that level of complexity in PFO. A "stolen" condition is much more realistic than nothing, and far more simple to implement than a very realistic system.

Overall I think it's the most fun for the least effort.


Andius wrote:
Qallz wrote:
I don't really like the whole idea of distinguishing between stolen goods and regular goods. How can someone tell if something is stolen or not? It just doesn't make sense, and I don't really see how it's beneficial from a game-mechanics standpoint either.
If a merchant comes into town and says they were robbed if 1000 gold bars with their company's mark on them, or a specific sword that matches a certain description then when someone comes into town with bars that bear that mark or a sword that fits that description it will be suspect.

How many people did he tell?

Which Settlement did he tell vs. which one did the Robbers go to sell their wares?

I agree those things you mentioned could certainly happen, but overall, they're corner cases, and I think it's far likely that whoever the robber is selling X item to, the person he's selling it to either wouldn't know and/or wouldn't care that it was stolen in FAR more cases than they would.

Edit: On that note, I think it would be cool to have "PC Pawn Shops", where they'll buy virtually anything, and then just mark it up. Essentially serving the Auction House role from WoW and it's subsequent clones. If there isn't an AH, then I presume this will happen one way or another, and if robbers can rob loot, no doubt these pawn shops would be the go-to stop to unload goods quickly and easily, then get a nice mark-up.

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Qallz wrote:
How many people did he tell?

I've always thought of it as the Common Folk (those NPCs you never actually see) being aware of that kind of thing. Same with how your Reputation goes down when you murder someone in the wilderness, perhaps there was a farm boy taking a nap in the forest that woke up and saw you do it.

Goblin Squad Member

Qallz wrote:

How many people did he tell?

Which Settlement did he tell vs. which one did the Robbers go to sell their wares?

Probably the local authorities who would circulate the description to other authorities, possibly including other nearby settlements.

Partially this is a fun > realism thing.

It provides a big reason to maintain a hideout in an area you frequently conduct illegal activities, allowing you to make your hex a lot less of an attractive target if you deal with nearby hideouts.


Andius wrote:
Qallz wrote:

How many people did he tell?

Which Settlement did he tell vs. which one did the Robbers go to sell their wares?

Probably the local authorities who would circulate the description to other authorities, possibly including other nearby settlements.

Partially this is a fun > realism thing.

It provides a big reason to maintain a hideout in an area you frequently conduct illegal activities, allowing you to make your hex a lot less of an attractive target if you deal with nearby hideouts.

Yes, it might be fun, though it's yet another reason that bandits would prefer coin over loot, and given the option, would probably go for the coinage (I would) lol.

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Would items looted from a kill be marked "stolen"?

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Harad Navar wrote:
Would items looted from a kill be marked "stolen"?

I doubt it, but that would make for a meaningful decision wouldn't it?

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Harad Navar wrote:
Would items looted from a kill be marked "stolen"?
I doubt it, but that would make for a meaningful decision wouldn't it?

What a mess.

Goblin Squad Member

Heh, that's a very good point; how can we talk about marking SAD'ed items as stolen without also including items you took from someone's corpse? The latter is obviously stealing in a world with respawning PC's.

I personally think it's just fine for bandits to carry away whatever they get out of a SAD without additional loss or penalty; no need for reduced price fences or anything like that. I want SAD'ing as a living to be relatively difficult to pull off (compared to PvE grinding, for example), but give a significant and immediate reward; in my opinion it's the satisfaction of a quick profit that'll likely keep bandits playing that playstyle (and should be the incentive for new people to play bandits). Banditry should be both high risk and high reward, a lifestyle that many try and few flourish in.

Goblin Squad Member

Shane Gifford wrote:
Heh, that's a very good point; how can we talk about marking SAD'ed items as stolen without also including items you took from someone's corpse? The latter is obviously stealing in a world with respawning PC's.

I would think whether or not items looted from a corpse should be considered stolen or not should depend on your relation with the person who you are looting and what flags they had when they died.

If you're an ally it should be assumed you are recovering it for them instead of stealing it. If they were a criminal / attacker / war target the gear should be considered legitimate spoils. If you're looting someone you don't know who died without such a flag it should be considered stolen unless they /releasecorpse


Bringslite wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Harad Navar wrote:
Would items looted from a kill be marked "stolen"?
I doubt it, but that would make for a meaningful decision wouldn't it?
What a mess.

If you meant that making looted items off corpses all marked as "Stolen Goods", then I agree. I'm starting to think the upsides of the whole Stolen Goods idea don't really outweigh the complexity and hassle of it.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I think that a "labeled property of X" tag, that was costly to apply and remove, might work better.

The only direct mechanical effect would be that settlements with laws prohibiting receipt of stolen property would not allow such items to be sold on the market; such items could still be used, traded in areas that didn't care about whether stuff had been stolen, or broken down into parts (which should probably clear any identifying marks from the item in question).

Goblin Squad Member

Qallz wrote:
Bringslite wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Harad Navar wrote:
Would items looted from a kill be marked "stolen"?
I doubt it, but that would make for a meaningful decision wouldn't it?
What a mess.
If you meant that making looted items off corpses all marked as "Stolen Goods", then I agree. I'm starting to think the upsides of the whole Stolen Goods idea don't really outweigh the complexity and hassle of it.

Yes. :)

Goblin Squad Member

I think a lot of these supposed systems are too complex. All of this nonsense and we have to wait years after the start of EE, to get all of the Core Classes and Races.


Bluddwolf wrote:
I think a lot of these supposed systems are too complex. All of this nonsense and we have to wait years after the start of EE, to get all of the Core Classes and Races.

Yea, totes. How much longer do I have to wait to play my Sorcerer? I don't want to tell people I play a Wizard. #hashtagembarrassed ;/

Goblin Squad Member

What is a class, really, in a classless system? I'd love for the Bard to be in the game on day one as that is my character's "class," but that can be incorporated later. I consider additional classes beyond the core 4 to be bonuses. The underlying game system is far more important.


Drakhan Valane wrote:
What is a class, really, in a classless system? I'd love for the Bard to be in the game on day one as that is my character's "class," but that can be incorporated later. I consider additional classes beyond the core 4 to be bonuses. The underlying game system is far more important.

I'm guessing someone who's dedicated in a certain role will be pretty much the same as if they were playing that class. If you have all the Rogue dedication bonuses, and no other dedication bonuses, you're a thoroughbred Rogue, same as if you were playing a fixed and solid class...

Think of the classless system as a more granular form of Multi-classing. That's all it is really.

Goblin Squad Member

It's really not that complex. Elder Scrolls games have a system that works much the same way.

There definitely needs to be a lot of reasons to maintain a hideout in areas you regularly commit criminal activities, otherwise you're going to have serious problems with the fact that there's not much you can do to seriously set back criminal activities in an area because of the fact they can just keep respawning and coming back. If the effectiveness of their operations is tied to destructible structure then you can dissuade their presence through finding and destroying them.

One thing I was thinking is rather than there being an action tied to making stolen goods regular you could just have the condition expire after it sits in a hideout for a certain amount of time. Not only would this prevent the bandits from running straight into town with the goods they just stole but it would mean finding a hideout would likely mean recovering most of the recently stolen items.

Goblin Squad Member

In regards to the "stolen item" flag on goods
Will crafted items have the "made by ThisGuy" phrase in the descriptor? I haven't really seen a yes or no, but most games have that on crafted gear and it also serves as a psuedo "stolen item" flag. If you know that Flintlokk goods are only distributed to certified Pax Pagan vendors(just as an example) Then anyone in the community would know that the shady vendor in the Various goods shop selling said item in bulk has more than likely aquired the items in question in a less honorable fashion. Where someone just visiting the settlement will go to the same stall and see it as a good deal, make his purchass and be on his merry way. Although he may suspect there is a reasoning behind the cheap prices he just brushes it aside because it is really not his concern at the moment

Goblin Squad Member

as an addition to my last remark

If most crafters or companies do put a mark on their product, I do see the fence viable in having such a skill as to remove or change the "made by" mark. Also, as pointed out it wouldn't fall into mvp territory so would be put in at a later date

Goblin Squad Member

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Andius wrote:

There definitely needs to be a lot of reasons to maintain a hideout in areas you regularly commit criminal activities, otherwise you're going to have serious problems with the fact that there's not much you can do to seriously set back criminal activities in an area because of the fact they can just keep respawning and coming back. If the effectiveness of their operations is tied to destructible structure then you can dissuade their presence through finding and destroying them.

One thing I was thinking is rather than there being an action tied to making stolen goods regular you could just have the condition expire after it sits in a hideout for a certain amount of time. Not only would this prevent the bandits from running straight into town with the goods they just stole but it would mean finding a hideout would likely mean recovering most of the recently stolen items.

You need other reasons for hideouts? How about: by visiting a hideout a character can shed a criminal flag before the timer runs out. (Just to go along with the idea that making a SAD demand flags a character as a Criminal.)


Urman wrote:
Andius wrote:

There definitely needs to be a lot of reasons to maintain a hideout in areas you regularly commit criminal activities, otherwise you're going to have serious problems with the fact that there's not much you can do to seriously set back criminal activities in an area because of the fact they can just keep respawning and coming back. If the effectiveness of their operations is tied to destructible structure then you can dissuade their presence through finding and destroying them.

One thing I was thinking is rather than there being an action tied to making stolen goods regular you could just have the condition expire after it sits in a hideout for a certain amount of time. Not only would this prevent the bandits from running straight into town with the goods they just stole but it would mean finding a hideout would likely mean recovering most of the recently stolen items.

You need other reasons for hideouts? How about: by visiting a hideout a character can shed a criminal flag before the timer runs out. (Just to go along with the idea that making a SAD demand flags a character as a Criminal.)

*Stamps His Approval*

Srysly, this is a good idea, better than the stolen goods thing.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Pagan wrote:
Wurner wrote:
I'm all for sponsored bandit groups but I'd hate to see independent banditry being too much of a hassle to bother with.
A small time independent bandit shouldn't be ambushing and looting what he can't get rid of. A hideout will give you access to some information about what the merchant may be carrying. I would expect bandits to look and go "Axe handles? Pah no use maybe we should wait for the next caravan"

So what in my mind are flaws in the system you propose, you see as desirable features. I guess we have different views of what the SAD system should be and how it should work. I have spoken my piece and will let the matter rest until more info is released from the developers.

Goblin Squad Member

Qallz wrote:
Drakhan Valane wrote:
What is a class, really, in a classless system? I'd love for the Bard to be in the game on day one as that is my character's "class," but that can be incorporated later. I consider additional classes beyond the core 4 to be bonuses. The underlying game system is far more important.

I'm guessing someone who's dedicated in a certain role will be pretty much the same as if they were playing that class. If you have all the Rogue dedication bonuses, and no other dedication bonuses, you're a thoroughbred Rogue, same as if you were playing a fixed and solid class...

Think of the classless system as a more granular form of Multi-classing. That's all it is really.

I see that as a gross oversimplification. I disagree that it's just multiclassing. Multiclassing has never worked for me.


The keyword there was granular. It's more granular multi-classing, was what I said.

Goblin Squad Member

And it really isn't.

Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:
Andius wrote:

There definitely needs to be a lot of reasons to maintain a hideout in areas you regularly commit criminal activities, otherwise you're going to have serious problems with the fact that there's not much you can do to seriously set back criminal activities in an area because of the fact they can just keep respawning and coming back. If the effectiveness of their operations is tied to destructible structure then you can dissuade their presence through finding and destroying them.

One thing I was thinking is rather than there being an action tied to making stolen goods regular you could just have the condition expire after it sits in a hideout for a certain amount of time. Not only would this prevent the bandits from running straight into town with the goods they just stole but it would mean finding a hideout would likely mean recovering most of the recently stolen items.

You need other reasons for hideouts? How about: by visiting a hideout a character can shed a criminal flag before the timer runs out. (Just to go along with the idea that making a SAD demand flags a character as a Criminal.)

+1 to this idea as well. A fun dynamic I just thought of, based on such a mechanic: small group of do-gooders comes up on a larger bandit group stealing from a merchant. Do-gooders know they can't take the bandits, so they hide and wait. They stealthily follow the bandits, who go back to the hideout to remove Criminal flags and maybe deposit loot into a temporary storage. The do-gooders can then report the hideout location to the authorities (or, if they're less good such as a rival bandit gang, can sell the info to the authorities).

Goblin Squad Member

Or, the do-gooders gather a group of irate merchants and their friends and burn it down!

Goblin Squad Member

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Or wait until the bandits in the hideout leave, slip in, steal what is available, then burn it down w/o the bandits knowing who did it.

Goblin Squad Member

Indeed, requiring "pit stops" at the hideout would lead to many different dynamics.

Goblin Squad Member

Perhaps a 'fence' could be an upgrade option for a hideout rather than a player skill.

Goblin Squad Member

Sintaqx wrote:
Perhaps a 'fence' could be an upgrade option for a hideout rather than a player skill.

Or an Influence allocation for a POI or Company. I sort of like the idea of having both concepts. An organization may have a fence without a POI, but needs to allocate influence to retain 'services' - perhaps this organizational level is found through the same trainers that offer SAD training by default which would also give bandits another reason to be concerned about reputation. Or you could have a fence be part of the hideout POI for an allocation of some of that POI's influence or DI's or whatever they use. Associating with the hideout might get around the reputation requirements to access settlements, but low-rep bandits would be limited to the one fence in a reasonably vulnerable place if a search effort aimed at rooting out the bandits turns it up.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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I love the concept that bandits operating near a hideout should have a big incentive to return to it, even at the risk of being followed.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Pagan wrote:

In the long run I believe we as merchants gain more by saying no to SAD's than we do by kowtowing to bandit tyranny. This then is a call to arms for merchants everywhere. JUST SAY NO!!! Our reward will be higher prices and laughter as the settlements drive the unwashed from the trade routes

In the long run, if SADs are going to flag a bandit as a criminal anyway, the bandit is better off just saying "No" to SADs as well. As you say, it makes no economic sense that without resource destruction, the value of items will not increase.

Furthermore, the bandit will gain benefit when the stolen goods are sold on the market. The benefits of the reputation bonus may not be necessary, if the ambush / raid was non rep losing to begin with. Reputation will naturally rise with each hour of not causing rep loss.

Raiding Outposts
(potentially) Caravans
POIs
Feuds
Wars
Factions

Are all ways to PvP / Loot without reputation or alignment consequences. If this remains or turns out to be the case, SADs might be unnecessary unless a target not falling within one of the above activities is carrying so much wealth and little protection, it will be worth either the rep loss or issuing a SAD at 75% or more.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
My PFO Forum New Years Resolution is to refrain from debating SADs unless something new comes from the Devs or Ryan.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
My PFO Forum New Years Resolution is to refrain from debating SADs unless something new comes from the Devs or Ryan.

Was there a debate in my statement? I'm agreeing with Pagan's premise that SADs are not a benefit to the economy if they do not reduce the supply of goods. If they only exchange one seller with another, there is no economic impact.

No debate, just an agreement and comment.


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Nobody takes their New Year's Resolutions seriously. lol

Goblin Squad Member

Qallz wrote:
Nobody takes their New Year's Resolutions seriously. lol

I know but that won't stop me for giving them crap about it when the publicly announce them. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Qallz wrote:
Nobody takes their New Year's Resolutions seriously. lol

Actually I did, I can't help it Andius doesn't know the definition of the word "Debate":

1. To consider something; deliberate.
2. To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
3. To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss.
4. Obsolete To fight or quarrel.
v.tr.
1. To deliberate on; consider.
2. To dispute or argue about.
3. To discuss or argue (a question, for example) formally.
4. Obsolete To fight or argue for or over.
n.
1. A discussion involving opposing points; an argument.
2. Deliberation; consideration: passed the motion with little debate.
3. A formal contest of argumentation in which two opposing teams defend and attack a given proposition.
4. Obsolete Conflict; strife.


Personally, I think SAD's should be removed all together. I want to be able to bravely adventure, while not having to worry about someone cowardly taking my hard-earned gold pieces.


Ugh, there goes mine.

Goblin Squad Member

Brave Sir Robin wrote:
Personally, I think SAD's should be removed all together. I want to be able to bravely adventure, while not having to worry about someone cowardly taking my hard-earned gold pieces.

I promise not to steal any dictionaries heading to Brighthaven, they are sorely needed there by some people.

Goblin Squad Member

Darn... I just got SAD and lost the completed "Unauthorized Biography of Bluddwolf" that was being sent to Brighthaven to be published and mass produced.... :(

Goblin Squad Member

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Banesama wrote:
Darn... I just got SAD and lost the completed "Unauthorized Biography of Bluddwolf" that was being sent to Brighthaven to be published and mass produced.... :(

Guess we'll have to continue using normal toilet paper.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:
Banesama wrote:
Darn... I just got SAD and lost the completed "Unauthorized Biography of Bluddwolf" that was being sent to Brighthaven to be published and mass produced.... :(
Guess we'll have to continue using normal toilet paper.

Lol.

Well played, well played.

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