Incorporeal touch attacks using solid object cover / concealment


Rules Questions


What is to prevent a creature with ability drain/damage from initiating its touch attack while more or less within a solid object?

For example, a Wraith sinks into the ground and moves through it towards the enemy PC. On it's turn it reaches up with just the tips of its fingers, and drags them along the sole of the PC's foot. (With a to hit roll obviously since one presumes the PC isn't just waiting like a rock to be smacked).

Does the PC have any real recourse except retreat in this case? The Wraith is more or less invulnerable to standard attacks (Not counting Channel Energy or Turn Undead perhaps, or would those even breach a solid object like, the ground?).

Is this feasible for a Wraith to do within the confines of the rules?

The contention is it is not. I believe it is possible, the other player involved believes the Wraith MUST expose itself to attack.


It is permitted, though the Wraith cannot see through the physical barrier, so the character gets the total concealment bonus and the wraith suffers a 50% miss chance due to it.


The way I run it, the wraith would roll miss chance as if he was blind because he can't see the PC. He can sense the presence of the life force enough to attack the right "square" just like when you swing at an invisible opponent when you know it's general location.

In addition to that PC would have a chance to ready an action to attack the wraith when it emerges to drain him, if he was expecting the attack to come. I would give the wraith cover against this attack though, +4 AC.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

From the Cleric Class rules

The Channel Energy is a Burst

From the MAGIC section of the rules:

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.

If the wraith has total cover, the channel can't reach him. Generally, if something has total cover from you, you have total cover from it, but there are exceptions, usually vision/perception related, such as the blind condition.

I'm assuming the wraith is using his Lifesense to locate his targets. According to the bestiary, Lifesense works like Blindsight. Blindsight says "Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object."

So the wraith needs a line of effect.

Line of Effect:
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.

If the wraith tries to pull this fingertip trick, I'm going to treat him as if he's making a blind attack, because he doesn't have a line of effect, unless he sticks at least 1 square foot of wraith out of the floor.

If he does want to expose that much, it's going to be either a five foot step or a move action to "stick his head out", a standard to attack, and another move or five foot step to pull it back in. Obviously you can't do all of that in one turn, unless the wraith has something like spring attack.

Liberty's Edge

PRD wrote:
Lifesense (Su) A wraith notices and locates living creatures within 60 feet, just as if it possessed the blindsight ability.

With lifesense a wraith can locate living PC perfectly without trouble and don't suffer from concealment.

Int 14, Wis 14,so it has the capability to use its ability to the max.

PRD wrote:
. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks.

4 point of AC and vulnerable only when attacking.

Gwiber wrote:


Not counting Channel Energy or Turn Undead perhaps, or would those even breach a solid object like, the ground?).

Both require a line of effect, so a solid object will stop them.

Wraith are nasty even for a mid level group (unless all of the group can fly/levitate/climb someting smaller than the wraith size).


Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:
Lifesense (Su) A wraith notices and locates living creatures within 60 feet, just as if it possessed the blindsight ability.

With lifesense a wraith can locate living PC perfectly without trouble and don't suffer from concealment.

True, but the Incorporeal UMR takes this into account.

PRD Incorporeal wrote:
It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks.

Also, lifesense, like blindsight, does require a line of effect, so would not be able to use to pinpoint a target while buried inside of a physical object.


Diego Rossi has the perfect rule citation for this. The wraith loses its total cover when attacking and instead has cover, and a readied action would be able to hit it.


Would someone even with a readied action be able to hit it? I Mean if its action is to run the very tips of its fingers on the underside of the target's shoe?

In theory, the only thing the target would know is it got hit by something, by the time it jumped/moved out of the way/enough to look down, the wraith would be "gone" already.

Yes I realize this makes them extraordinarily dangerous.


Gwiber wrote:

Would someone even with a readied action be able to hit it? I Mean if its action is to run the very tips of its fingers on the underside of the target's shoe?

In theory, the only thing the target would know is it got hit by something, by the time it jumped/moved out of the way/enough to look down, the wraith would be "gone" already.

Yes I realize this makes them extraordinarily dangerous.

Yes, they would. Pathfinder combat is an abstraction; exact, detailed movements suh as the foot tickle you've described aren't well-represented. If the wraith attacks from inside an object, it is presumed to expose itself enough to be vulnerable to a readied action. How that resolves narratively is up to the GM's (and possibly the player's) ability and willingness to convert the mechanic to an interesting description.

The foot tickle would work very well the first time the character crossed, especially if the wraith used Stealth. But since there is no facing in Pathfinder, and since attacking breaks Stealth, the character would know she was attacked as soon as it happened unless other Perception modifiers made it difficult to see an unhidden wraith hand/finger/whatever in otherwise plain sight. Once the character knows the wraith is there, she can react accordingly.

Since a GM is free and encouraged to add situational modifiers to any rolls when appropriate, the foot tickle might grant an additional cover bonus to the wraith's AC beyond normal cover. In such a case, I'd add a corresponding penalty to the wraith's attack roll to represent the difficulty in timing the attack to hit the character's sole during the brief time it touches the ground without exposing more than a bit of the wraith's finger. If we're really only going for a fingertip, the bonus and penalty would be very severe.

Liberty's Edge

blahpers wrote:


Since a GM is free and encouraged to add situational modifiers to any rolls when appropriate, the foot tickle might grant an additional cover bonus to the wraith's AC beyond normal cover. In such a case, I'd add a corresponding penalty to the wraith's attack roll to represent the difficulty in timing the attack to hit the character's sole during the brief time it touches the ground without exposing more than a bit of the wraith's finger. If we're really only going for a fingertip, the bonus and penalty would be very severe.

It is a touch attack, but it still need a solid hit to damage. By default you use strength on your melee attacks, even if they are touch attacks.

Incorporeal creatures use dexterity instead of strength because the rules say that they have no strength score and use dexterity for theirs attacks, but you still need more than a simple "trickling" of the target to damage it.


I run incorporeal touches as reaching into your heart and trying to stop it by the application of negative energy. No foot tickle for you!


Diego Rossi wrote:
blahpers wrote:


Since a GM is free and encouraged to add situational modifiers to any rolls when appropriate, the foot tickle might grant an additional cover bonus to the wraith's AC beyond normal cover. In such a case, I'd add a corresponding penalty to the wraith's attack roll to represent the difficulty in timing the attack to hit the character's sole during the brief time it touches the ground without exposing more than a bit of the wraith's finger. If we're really only going for a fingertip, the bonus and penalty would be very severe.

It is a touch attack, but it still need a solid hit to damage. By default you use strength on your melee attacks, even if they are touch attacks.

Incorporeal creatures use dexterity instead of strength because the rules say that they have no strength score and use dexterity for theirs attacks, but you still need more than a simple "trickling" of the target to damage it.

As reasonable a decision as any. There's no hard rule as to how forceful a touch attack needs to be to work, only that higher Strength (or Dexterity, in this case) improves your chances of a successful attack. The decision of whether a wraith's tickle causes damage is purely discretionary.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

It is also worth stating that a incorporeal creature cannot enter an object larger than itself. This usually prevents using the floor as total cover.


Maezer wrote:
It is also worth stating that a incorporeal creature cannot enter an object larger than itself. This usually prevents using the floor as total cover.

Why can't they?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I appologize. I misremembered. While it can enter it cannot 'pass through' objects larger than itself. Moving through the floor toward your target strikes me as very similar to passing through an object larger than itself unless the floor is relatively thin in which case punching through the floor may be doable.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Incorporeal touch attacks using solid object cover / concealment All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions