Atlatl darts and Atlatls, best of both worlds?

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Ok, so from what I understand, an Atlatl dart is essentially a javelin that is thrown using a special device. As such, I get to add my strength bonus to attacks with Atlatls. Here are my questions...

1. The text says I "can" attack with an atlatl with one hand, but can I use two hands for the 1.5 str bonus from the "Two-Handed Thrower" feat?

2. If I enchant an atlatl (but not the darts), does it work like a bow, where all attacks made with said atlatl gains the enchantments?

3. Are Atlatl darts destroyed if they hit (or 50% chance to be destroyed on a miss), like arrows are? Or do they stay around like thrown weapons?

4. Can I enchant each dart with the returning property (or does each dart gain the returning property when wearing a greater belt of hurling)?

Note that Atlatls are listed under the "Thrown" weapon group.

relevant quotes:

Spoiler:

Atlatl wrote:

This Stone Age weapon is a thin piece of wood or antler used as a lever to hurl a specially fitted dart. An atlatl gives much greater range to a dart, but must be loaded like a projectile weapon. Your Strength modifier applies to damage rolls when you use an atlatl, just as it does for thrown weapons. You can fire—but not load—an atlatl with one hand. Loading an atlatl is a move action that requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity. The Rapid Reload feat can be taken for atlatls, allowing you to load a dart as a free action.

Atlatl Dart wrote:

An atlatl dart is the equivalent of a javelin except it has fletching. If thrown without an atlatl, treat it as a javelin.

Thanks in advance!

[blackbloodtroll]

I always wondered about #2.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

I'm honestly torn in how it works... particullary about the breaking ammunition.

Atlatl darts are considered ammunition, but is an Atlatl a projectile weapon?

Magic Items wrote:

Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.

If an Atlatl is a projectile weapon, then yes. As for breaking ammunition, the weapons section says:

Weapons wrote:

Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition, such as arrows for bows, bolts for crossbows, darts for blowguns, or sling bullets for slings and halfling sling staves. When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions). Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Yet, odd enough, the breakage rule under magic items specifies only certain ammos:

Magic Items wrote:

Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or is otherwise rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that successfully hits a target is automatically destroyed after it delivers its damage.

So, would by javelin equivalent darts break when they hit a person?

If the projectiles don't break, I could see some abuse with creating a +5 Atlatl (with some good enchantments) and then two (maybe three, depending on how often you hit) Atlatl darts with extra enchantments life flaming. Perhaps this could even lead into a ranged poison build, since lasting poisons would last between each attack...

[Andrew R]

#2 is debatable but i would say yes.
The 'dart" is a javelin that should not be considered ammo

[FireberdGNOME]

If a player spends the feats to excel with an atlatl, I don't see why they should not get the Two Handed Thrower bonus. It is a Move Action to reload, and would require an additional feat to speed that up. :) Feat intensive and not all that effective. Sure. :)

[Archaeik]

1. You should be able to do this. I base this on Str applying "as it does for thrown weapons"; 2HT modifies thrown weapon damage, as such it should also modify this damage. Remember, 2HT needs Quick Draw to throw like this more than once a turn.

2.

Ranged Weapons and Ammunition wrote:

The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.

This should apply, as the darts are listed under ammunition, and it's loaded as a projectile weapon.

Possible FAQ candidate. But, if it's not a projectile weapon, it defeats the purpose of enchanting it altogether.

3.

Ultimate Combat wrote:

Atlatl: An atlatl is a thin piece of wood or antler used as a lever to hurl a specially fitted dart. An atlatl gives much greater range to a dart, but must be loaded like a projectile weapon. Your Strength modifier applies to damage rolls when you use an atlatl, just as it does for thrown weapons. You can fire—but not load—an atlatl with one hand. Loading an atlatl is a move action that requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity. The Rapid Reload feat can be taken for atlatls, allowing you to load a dart as a free action. Atlatl darts are the size of javelins but have fletching, and can be used as javelins without an atlatl.

However, hey are listed as ammunition in UE, therefore they should be subject to all the benefits and limitations.

Considering they are similar to javelins (which are not ammunition), it should be possible to get durable ones if you like.
It is an odd point of the rules however, and you bring up a good point about magic ammunition, although it should be acknowledged that it was written before the addition of the atlatl. (and I don't see that magical ammunition entry in the PRD version of UE?)

All in all, I don't think the two entries are entirely incompatible... That is to say, using them as javelins would not invoke their ammunition breakage quality. (just as stabbing with an arrow does not)
An adjudication should be consistent though, and the only way to have an atlatl apply it's enchantments is if the darts are ammo (which I think is intended)

4.

Quote:

You can fire—but not load—an atlatl with one hand.

This language suggests you aren't actually throwing the ammo, but launching it; as such, returning cannot apply.

However, since atlatl darts are javelin equivalents, they could be given the property, but it would only function if they are thrown instead of launched. (further, if they are enchanted as ammunition, the magic should expire after 1 use - or only work when used as ammunition)

Edit: Here is an example of a "javelin" equivalent that breaks on hit

Pilum wrote:

Type martial

The tip of this heavy javelin is designed to break off and embed itself into a shield once it hits. Like ammunition, a thrown pilum that hits its target is destroyed. If you hit a shield-bearing opponent with a pilum, he loses the AC bonuses from that shield until he takes a standard action to pry the remnants of the pilum from his shield.

The only thing it avoids is the 50% break chance on a miss. But it is also not enchantable as ammunition.

[Archaeik]

Andrew R wrote:

The 'dart" is a javelin that should not be considered ammo

Atlatl Dart wrote:

Price 1 gp

Type ammunition

An atlatl dart is the equivalent of a javelin except it has fletching. If thrown without an atlatl, treat it as a javelin.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

So, be reasonable and not try to cheese by having extra enchantments and I'll be fine then. Atlatls just became ranged weapon of choice for barbarians :)

[Zedth]

1)Atlatls are quite small, I can't fathom any reasonable circumstance short of custom-crafting a 2h version that would allow for the 2h Str bonus of 1.5 x Str mod to be possible.

I'm too lazy to look up the Str rule, but I have to believe it the rule was meant for melee, not ranged attacks. I can't think of any ranged weapons that you can use 2 hands on to take advantage of the 1.5x mod damage bonus.

2) I can't fathom any good reason why not. Bows and Xbows can be enchanted, why not your Atlatl?

[Ciaran Barnes]

I would let it work, simply because saying it doesn't would IMO be squashing a player's fun for no reason other than nit-picking the rules.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

The 2 hands for 1.5x mod damage comes from a specific feat, two-handed thrower. It always you to throw one and two handed weapons as standard actions, and if you use two hands to throw something, then you can gain a bonus.

If an atlatl is too small for that(and thus be an equivalent of a light weapon) then I would ask my GM if my titan mauler could use a atlatl two sizes bigger, or the equivalent of a light weapon to a two handed weapon. 2d6 on ranged weapon damage before size increases? Yeah...

[Gwen Smith]

Coincidently, I was watching the Atlatl episode of Weapon Masters when I saw this thread. They have some nice views of the both the thrower and the dart. Their darts were really thin and flexible, and their guest college javelin champion bent a few just from the force of his throw. It would be hard to use the Two-handed thrower feat with these, I think.

[insaneogeddon]

Sorted !

CONSERVING
Price +1 bonus; Aura moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Weight —
This ability cannot be placed on firearms. Only projectile weapons can be made conserving. When the wielder misses with a ranged attack, the fired ammunition teleports unharmed to its quiver, case, or pouch. If the ammunition in question would be destroyed for other reasons than merely being launched, such as an arrow that breaks apart in flight, this special ability does not function and the ammunition is destroyed as normal. Effects that block teleportation prevent this special ability from working.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost +1 bonus
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, abundant ammunition (Ultimate Combat), dimension door

[Gwen Smith]

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

The 2 hands for 1.5x mod damage comes from a specific feat, two-handed thrower. It always you to throw one and two handed weapons as standard actions, and if you use two hands to throw something, then you can gain a bonus.

If an atlatl is too small for that(and thus be an equivalent of a light weapon) then I would ask my GM if my titan mauler could use a atlatl two sizes bigger, or the equivalent of a light weapon to a two handed weapon. 2d6 on ranged weapon damage before size increases? Yeah...

A few other options you might check with your GM:

Could you get an Atlatl made for throwing Pilums? Then you'd only need it one size larger for the 2d6. The only downside is that the Pilums heads are always destroyed.

Could you get Atlatls made with the same technique as the Durable Arrows (from Elves of Golarian)? That way, you could recover your ammunition most of the time, whether it hits or not. Since these are essentially larger arrows, and the durable arrows are made with a stronger shaft (alchemically bonded/laminated), it seems possible.

Could you get Endless Ammunition on your Atlatl? That would be awesome, especially since the thrower is less than 1/4th the size of the darts.

[Archaeik]

Neat video. I agree, based on "real life", it would be difficult/awkward to throw/launch with 2 hands, regardless the size of the weapon.

Couple of notes about the mechanics of RAW in relation to this though.

Quote:

Your Strength modifier applies to damage rolls when you use an atlatl, just as it does for thrown weapons.

Quote:

You can fire—but not load—an atlatl with one hand.

The only reason 2HT feat works is because 2HT changes the modifier to thrown weapon damage.

It says "can fire with one hand", not "always uses one hand to fire". This at least suggests it's a valid option for 2HT.

Some of the other issues.
Very few ranged weapons specifically call out how handedness changes when using improperly sized weapons. (although many always take 2 hands to use or reload) Though, it's not unreasonable to look at object size to determine how this should be handled.
Related to the atlatl... even if the lever would otherwise be a light weapon, the size of the dart should reasonably bump the overall weapon classification to 1H. I would find it difficult to believe that a medium creature could use a Large size atlatl/dart one handed (if at all*).
Touching on what a 2 handed throw would look like, I imagine it would probably need to be over your head, given the motion for throwing 1 handed.

*In fact it's also fairly unrealistic that this weapon would scale very well at all if the darts are like 3x-4x the length of arrows but just as flexible. You're only supporting at most about 1/3 the total length with the atlatl, the rest would just want to flex down, either dislodging the dart, snapping it, or just causing massive amounts of drag during the throw.
That being said, we're lucky we don't need to worry about such things. I suspect a Large atlatl should use 2 hands to launch a projectile about 10-12ft in length. Probably within most martial weapon users ability, but I wouldn't begrudge a GM for saying no. (A huge atlatl, even though the lever-arm itself would otherwise be wieldable as a 2H weapon, would launch a dart at least 16ft in length, probably closer to 20ft or more. I'm not sure how controllable that would be for a medium creature. Let alone the ordeal of carrying around such items.)

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Makes sense, though the concept is cool. Who wouldn't want to launch arrows longer than themselves using a launch stick? The titan mauler(?) barbarian archetype might give a GM enough exception to allow it.