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So, when using a spell from a staff, you use your own casting stat and caster level.
What if you're using UMD to use the staff?
UMD lets you activate spell trigger items. A staff is a spell trigger item. So a DC20 UMD check lets you cast spells from the staff.
Two questions:
1. If you are a different kind of caster, do you still use your level and casting stat to set DCs and caster level? This is complicated when you consider sor/wiz and cleric/oracle. The staff doesn't really have an innate caster stat; an arcane spell could easily have been based on either int or cha by the original caster. And obviously we'd expect a sorcerer using an arcane staff to use cha, even though the crafter presumably used int. (Assuming there's at least one fifth level spell, the minimum CL 8 for staves is overruled by the minimum CL to use that spell, which is one higher for sorc than wizard for any spell over 1st level.) But does that mean that a cleric with UMD using an arcane staff can use wis as the activation ability, even though wis is never the casting stat for arcane spells, etc.?
2. What if you're not a caster at all? You don't *have* a caster level. Do you just default to effective-zero, so you use the staff's level because it's higher? If so, what about the casting stat? Again, you don't have a casting stat. And for, say, a rogue or fighter, it's quite likely that no traditional casting stat is one of your best stats...
Thoughts?
I've talked to some other people, and I have a proposed interpretation:
If the spell is on your spell list, even if it's obviously a different version of the spell, it's still good enough for a spell trigger item, so you can use your own caster level and casting stat if they are better.
Otherwise, though, you get the staff's caster level, and the usual "DC is set as though casting stat were minimum for that spell" rule. Because you have no relevant caster level or caster stats.
And to continue arguing with myself, another friend points out that UMD says "as if the spell were on your class list". So a wizard using a clerical staff through UMD should get their wizard caster level and int mod. Not sure what to do for a rogue, though.
I am actually not sure, if you have to use UMD I would say you don't get to use your caster level or casting ability modifier but I'd still allow you to use feats.
Based on nothing but common sense though, I will hit FAQ.
1. The description in UMD:
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: ... This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list
Therefore, you should be able to use your own CL with a staff, since it is as if the spell is on your class list.
2. If you were a non-caster, I assume you would need to Emulate a Class Feature, since you do not have a "class spell list".
I'm pretty sure the spell trigger item thing is intended to work for spell trigger items even if you're not a caster, but it does sort of leave open the question of what your CL is. Although treating it as emulate class feature sort of works, since that gives you an effective CL. Still doesn't say what your stat is.
It just doesn't make sense to use your divine CL for casting arcane spells, you suck just as much casting them as a rogue without casting level.
Having a high ability score might make sense to use, int or cha if the spell is on a wizard/sorc list for example but that kinda means you need to check every list to see if you can use wis/int or cha.
Feats, I dont see an issue with feats they universally work for all spellcasters.
Since you are not actually getting the class feature you will not be able to use the emulated caster level it just fulfills a requirement to be able to use it. Nothing more.
If the spell were already on the sorc/wiz list, you wouldn't need a check or anything, because spell trigger items don't distinguish source.
I agree that using your native CL and stat mod seems weird, but that is what the Use Magic Device rule says you do: You treat the spell as though it is on your class spell list. If it were on your class spell list, you would use your CL and casting stat for it.
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Staves already have built in rules to cover most ot the questions. The game assumes all magic items are made with minimum stats to make the item. So this is hiw we know the dc on a wind or fireball is dc 14.
Second this tells us a wizard with an 11 int using a staff of fire to lob a fireball is.. dc 14 because its using the staffs caster level stats etc.
So say we have a lvl 10 fighter with a 10 int 10 charisma and skilk focus use magic device. He can use the above staff of fire on a 4.
The fireball is dc 14 because it uses the default stats like all other items. Staves just have a rule lwtting you use your stat if its better.
I got that but it seems like that isn't RAI, I agree with the RAW.
Mojorat wrote: Staves already have built in rules to cover most ot the questions. The game assumes all magic items are made with minimum stats to make the item. So this is hiw we know the dc on a wind or fireball is dc 14.
Second this tells us a wizard with an 11 int using a staff of fire to lob a fireball is.. dc 14 because its using the staffs caster level stats etc.
So say we have a lvl 10 fighter with a 10 int 10 charisma and skilk focus use magic device. He can use the above staff of fire on a 4.
The fireball is dc 14 because it uses the default stats like all other items. Staves just have a rule lwtting you use your stat if its better.
Fine but what if a level 10 cleric with int 16, cha 12 and wis 24 uses the staff with UMD ?
Will it be a 10 dice or an 8 dice fireball ?
Does he use intelligence or wisdom to set the DC or maybe just the staff's DC ?
Similarly, what happens if the fighter has 18 int? Does he use int to control the fireball DC? Does he use the best of his int/wis/cha scores?
If a cleric could use wisdom to set the DC, can a non-cleric? Can a bard use wisdom to set the DC on a fireball instead of int, if the bard has high wisdom?
There's a lot of stuff based on assuming your casting stat exists at all, and is probably one of your best stats. Say a wizard has a staff of wizard spells, but has been int drained a lot. The book says you use the better of the staff's caster level or your own. It doesn't say you get to use the implicit stat mods, though; it says you use your own stat to set the stat mods. What if your int mod is -3 right now due to int drain?
It feels like the staff rules are a little vague about some of this.
RAW:
It seems to me that if you are a caster at all, and you can use a staff through UMD, you can use your caster stat and caster level with it. It seems also that you have to use your caster stat even if it's worse than the stat that would be implied by a wand of that spell. I have no idea what the intended behavior is if you aren't a caster, and use UMD.
RAI:
I would guess the intent would be that you use the implicit caster stat (e.g., 13 for a 3rd level spell) if it's better than yours, which is pretty unlikely normally, but could happen; a wizard with a 16 int is a bad build, but not an unthinkable circumstance, and an 8th level spell from a staff should probably get the implicit +4 then instead of their +3. I also suspect that the implied caster level and casting stat should be used anyway for things that are not really on your class spell list. Although... I don't know. Maybe a high-wisdom wizard should still get to use that high wisdom for a clerical staff.
It's more complicated if you think about sorcerers and oracles and bards. A staff of bard spells really is intended to work with charisma, after all.
Also there is a witch archetype that uses con casting, can others use con too, or can just the witch do that when using a staff ?
Oracles use CHA to cast, just like Sorcerers.
If you are not a caster, then your CL is 0, and you use the staff's CL.
You can get a scaling CL by the Rogue trick Minor Magic, by the trait Allure, or for a racial SLA. There are multiple ways.
For the casting stat, standard divine stats are Wis and Cha while standard arcane stats are Int and Cha. If you have CL > 0, then I would use the casting stat associated with the CL. If you can cast multiple ways, then you get the best one.
RAW, staves use your stat to determine the DC. RAI, I think they use the better of your stat or the minimum needed. Especially, since you need a minimum stat to cast a given spell.
/cevah
The staves use the relevant stat. The 18 int fighter with a staff of fire fireballs for dc 17. Because he is the wielder of the staff.
Mojorat wrote: The staves use the relevant stat. The 18 int fighter with a staff of fire fireballs for dc 17. Because he is the wielder of the staff. What makes Int the relevant stat? That is the question. If a Sorcerer made the staff, does it use Cha? If a Cleric with the fire domain made it, does that use Wis? If a Orc Scarred Witch made it, does t use Con?
/cevah
How do you determine the "relevant" stat, if you don't have a casting stat? Since staves have multiple spells, it's quite possible to have a staff which has at least one spell that is on more than one list, or possibly several spells. Does the relevant stat for the staff vary per spell?
One answer, I suppose, would be to use the same list-determination that's used for spell-like abilities to determine their spell level and such. But that doesn't quite solve it, because sor/wiz can imply int or cha, and cleric/oracle can be wisdom or cha.
I think I buy the interpretation that non-casters have a CL of 0, so presumably they use the staff's CL. But I can't figure out what stat to use.
Gah, it gets worse. I went and looked at scrolls under Use Magic Device. They say you need a high enough score in the relevant stat, or must use the Emulate Ability Score function. What stat?
"(Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells)"
This, of course, predates oracles, so it doesn't consider charisma for oracle spells.
But... wait. It's bad enough that not all published material distinguishes arcane and divine scrolls. And weird cases exist (a fire domain cleric can create a divine scroll of fireball). But!
How do you know whether a given arcane scroll of fireball uses intelligence or charisma?
You don't know who scribed it. I suppose if it's 5th level you know it wasn't a sorcerer, but what if someone chose to scribe it at CL 7?
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
If your own caster levels won't activate the staff because you're not the caster type for them then they are irrelevant.
If you can fire off the staff using UMD, then the effective caster level of the spells fired is that of the staff itself, which will be a minimum of 8, or whatever the minimum wizard/cleric level to fire off the highest level spell the staff will cast.
Except your levels are totally relevant, because the UMD text for spell trigger items says it treats the spell as being on your class spell list. So you get exactly the results you'd get if that spell were on your class spell list. Which, I think, implies using your own casting stat, too.
What I'm stumped on is what you do for a non-caster with a ton of UMD, because then you don't have a casting stat, but the staff language doesn't allow for using its caster stat instead of yours:
[indent]Using Staves: Staves use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it's higher than the caster level of the staff.
This means that staves are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder's ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than those from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependent on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are also harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming a target's spell resistance.[/indent]
Note the non-parallel language. Staves "use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats" to set the DC. There is nothing conditional here. On the other hand, "the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it's higher level than the caster level of the staff."
There's nothing saying you use the staff's ability score if it's higher, and there's nothing to tell you what to do if you don't have a casting ability score.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
seebs wrote: Except your levels are totally relevant, because the UMD text for spell trigger items says it treats the spell as being on your class spell list. So you get exactly the results you'd get if that spell were on your class spell list. Which, I think, implies using your own casting stat, too.
It treats the spell as if it was on a class list you don't posess that is being EMULATED by your UMD skill roll. In that instance it doesn't make one bit of difference if you are a Wizard or a Rogue. The emulation only exists for the purpose of making the spell go off. At that point the magic is coming totally from the item, not you. For this purpose it's pretty much as if the staff was a a wand.
Staves unlike scrolls dont care if the spell is a divine or arcane version of the spell. The spell only has to be on your class list.
If you are using UMD then you have to use the minimum CL and saving throw which is set by the creator of the staff.
If the spell is on your class list and you dont need UMD then the relevant modifier determines the DC.
The relevant modifier is whatever you use when you cast spells. For a cleric it would be wisdom, and for an oracle it would be charisma, as an example.
Do you have a citation for this? The wording is:
Quote: Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge. There's nothing in here saying "as though it were on a class list you don't possess that is being emulated". It just says "as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list." Of course, it also just says "use a wand", but the ", staff, or other spell trigger item" wording appears to cover that.
How would the staff work if the spell were on your class spell list? You would use your own casting stat, and use your caster level if it were higher than the staff's. So that is what happens. Unless you have a citation to a rule saying otherwise?
seebs wrote: Do you have a citation for this? The wording is:
Quote: Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge. There's nothing in here saying "as though it were on a class list you don't possess that is being emulated". It just says "as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list." Of course, it also just says "use a wand", but the ", staff, or other spell trigger item" wording appears to cover that.
How would the staff work if the spell were on your class spell list? You would use your own casting stat, and use your caster level if it were higher than the staff's. So that is what happens. Unless you have a citation to a rule saying otherwise?
The line just means you can activate the staff/wand/etc without a UMD check because it is on your list.
As an example you never get to use your CL for wand even if it is on your spell list. It NEVER says anything about using your caster level in that line.
UMD also does not give you a caster level. It let you trick the item into thinking you are supposed to be able to use/activate it.
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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
seebs wrote: Do you have a citation for this? The wording is:
Quote: Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge. There's nothing in here saying "as though it were on a class list you don't possess that is being emulated". It just says "as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list." Of course, it also just says "use a wand", but the ", staff, or other spell trigger item" wording appears to cover that.
How would the staff work if the spell were on your class spell list? You would use your own casting stat, and use your caster level if it were higher than the staff's. So that is what happens. Unless you have a citation to a rule saying otherwise?
You're reading it backwards.
You're a wizard with a cleric staff. Your successful UMD roll does not put those cleric spells on your wizard class list. What it does it allows you to pretend that you had a cleric spell list for the purpose of activating the staff, just like it would if you were a non-spellcasting rogue instead. That's an important distinction.
That's exactly what it does not say. It does not say "as though you had the spell list the item's spell comes from", it says "as though the particular spell were on your class spell list".
Consider a cleric with the fire domain. Fireball is already on that cleric's spell list, even at 1st level. They don't need a UMD check, because the spell is on their list. UMD allows you to use an item as if a particular spell were on your list. The plain and obvious meaning of that is "the item works exactly as it would if this spell were on your class spell list".
wraithstrike wrote: The line just means you can activate the staff/wand/etc without a UMD check because it is on your list. Look at the sentence after that, though, where it says that the UMD check allows you to use an item as if the spell were on your list.
Quote: It NEVER says anything about using your caster level in that line. No, it doesn't. What says something about caster level is staves. Staves say that they are spell trigger items, and that you can use your caster level or the staff's, whichever is higher.
PRD wrote: Activation: Staves use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a staff is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a staff.) To activate a staff, a character must hold it forth in at least one hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures).
(...)
Using Staves: Staves use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it's higher than the caster level of the staff.
The first part of this says that it is a spell trigger item, and that is what determines whether you can use it. But that's all the spell trigger activation method determines. The question of what happens if/when you use it is resolved by the "Using Staves" paragraph, which says nothing about spell lists. The spell list question is relevant only to the question of whether or not you can activate the item. It is not relevant to the DC or caster level.
The reason you don't get to use your own caster level with a wand is that the wand rules themselves say what caster level they work at, and make no reference to your level. It has nothing to do with UMD or no-UMD.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I'm going to say this one last time in an abbreviated form.
Person A is a 12th level Wizard with a total UMD bonus of +12
Person B is an 8th level Rogue with a total UMD bonus of +12
Both will get exactly the same results with the minimum successful roll to activate a staff with clerical spells on it.
seebs wrote: That's exactly what it does not say. It does not say "as though you had the spell list the item's spell comes from", it says "as though the particular spell were on your class spell list".
Consider a cleric with the fire domain. Fireball is already on that cleric's spell list, even at 1st level. They don't need a UMD check, because the spell is on their list. UMD allows you to use an item as if a particular spell were on your list. The plain and obvious meaning of that is "the item works exactly as it would if this spell were on your class spell list".
wraithstrike wrote: The line just means you can activate the staff/wand/etc without a UMD check because it is on your list. Look at the sentence after that, though, where it says that the UMD check allows you to use an item as if the spell were on your list.
Quote: It NEVER says anything about using your caster level in that line. No, it doesn't. What says something about caster level is staves. Staves say that they are spell trigger items, and that you can use your caster level or the staff's, whichever is higher.
PRD wrote: Activation: Staves use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a staff is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a staff.) To activate a staff, a character must hold it forth in at least one hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures).
(...)
Using Staves: Staves use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it's higher than the caster level of the staff.
The first part of this says that it is a spell trigger item, and that is what determines whether you can use it. But that's all the spell trigger activation method...
You are reaching Seebs. You have to be an actual caster to gain full use of a staff. Otherwise you only get the minimum results. I am surprised this is even being debated.
Okay, so, I had discussed this with a few other people before coming here, and none of them reacted this way, so I am pretty sure that I am not successfully communicating my position. I am not claiming that a non-caster gains the benefit of a caster level, for instance.
Claim #1: The only thing UMD for spell trigger devices says it does is make everything behave as though a specific spell were on your class spell list. That is all I am claiming it does. I am not claiming it gives you a caster level.
Claim #2: In the case where you *are* a caster, it seems to me that, RAW, you then get to use your caster level with a staff, because that is what would happen if the spell were on your list. For instance, say you're a wizard, and you do spell research, and the GM allows you to research a particular spell, placing it on your list. Obviously you'd get to use your caster level and caster stat with that spell in a staff now. So I think it behaves the same way. I am not at all sure this is RAI, because it clearly seems to produce results that seem Very Surprising, like letting a cleric with high UMD use their cleric caster level for a staff of fire. Except, if you had a cleric with fire domain, that'd make sense for fireball, right?
Claim #3: The casting stat for casters. Specifically, there's nothing in the books saying that a staff has a minimum casting stat! It just says, unconditionally, that you use yours. So even if your casting stat would be too low to cast that spell, it seems like you still use your casting stat to set DCs. Even if you've been ability-drained and you have a penalty, say. You can use the spell-trigger item, because spell-trigger items don't require you to have a high enough stat to cast the spell, but the DC is set by your casting stat.
Claim #3: In the case where you aren't a caster, it seems obvious to me that you behave as though you're caster level 0. (But wait! Consider something like the "alluring" feat which gives you a caster level, and which the Paizo team has said works for a feat like Arcane Strike. What happens there?) But if you're not a caster, I don't know what you get for caster stat. I don't think there's a stated "minimum" for you to get.
That's the big sticking point, here: It's not that I think you should necessarily get a good casting stat. It's that there is nothing in the staff rules allowing for using the staff's casting stat to control spell DCs. It's not like wands.
LazarX: It's not that I have any doubt about what you are saying. It's that I've been unable to find anything in the rules which supports it. The wording of the UMD description is, so far as I can tell, absolutely unambiguous; things proceed as though the spell is on your spell list, and there's nothing stated anywhere in UMD about changing your caster level or casting stat, so I assume the rules for staff activation continue to occur normally.
I'm a little frustrated, because you're arguing for a position which strikes me as eminently reasonable, and it's the ruling I would probably make as a GM, but I'd be making it because I think RAW is broken. But you're not giving me any actual words somewhere in the rules which I can use to support that ruling!
Seems the RAI would be using the minimum statistics for the staff/spell.
A Staff of Fireball would be DC 14 and do 10d6 since the crafter would be 11th level to craft the staff.
Think of it like a Wand. A Wand has a preset caster level and uses the minimum DC.
A staff CAN allow the wielder to use their caster level if it is higher. So if you don't have a caster level, you can just use the staff's.
PRD wrote: Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. I'm curious if you can use your Modifier instead but not your caster level with the staff cause that could lead to some...interesting stuff.
I am aware of what a wand does. But the staff wording is very different. Most significantly, the staff has two different ways of resolving differences. For caster level, you use whichever is better. For casting stat, you use your own stat and feats, period. There is nothing corresponding to say "or the staff's if those are better".
But if you don't even have a casting stat, then what? I suppose I could just rule that your casting stat, like your casting level, is zero, and if you don't have any feats that boost your DC, then the spell DCs will be 10 + (-5) + spell level, or spell level +5. Which is awful, but then, you're not a caster, what did you expect?
There's some even weirder cases that occur if you allow for idiotic builds.
Imagine, if you will, a staff that has fireball. Staff caster level is 8. Now, build a dismally-inefficient character: A sorcerer/wizard. Your character has 5 levels in sorcerer, charisma of 20, and 15 levels in wizard, with an int of 14.
So. Do you get:
1. Caster level 15, save DC 15? (You use wizard because it's the highest level.)
2. Caster level 15, save DC 18? (You use wizard for CL, but charisma as your casting stat because it's better.)
3. Caster level 5, save DC 18? (You use charisma, because it's the best casting stat, and are then stuck with the levels of that class.)
4. Your choice of CL5/DC18 or CL15/DC15, but you must pick one or the other.
5. A heartfelt note of apology to your parents, explaining that all things considered, the other players really had no choice but to put you down. It was for the best.
seebs wrote: I am aware of what a wand does. But the staff wording is very different. Most significantly, the staff has two different ways of resolving differences. For caster level, you use whichever is better. For casting stat, you use your own stat and feats, period. There is nothing corresponding to say "or the staff's if those are better".
But if you don't even have a casting stat, then what? I suppose I could just rule that your casting stat, like your casting level, is zero, and if you don't have any feats that boost your DC, then the spell DCs will be 10 + (-5) + spell level, or spell level +5. Which is awful, but then, you're not a caster, what did you expect?
There's some even weirder cases that occur if you allow for idiotic builds.
Imagine, if you will, a staff that has fireball. Staff caster level is 8. Now, build a dismally-inefficient character: A sorcerer/wizard. Your character has 5 levels in sorcerer, charisma of 20, and 15 levels in wizard, with an int of 14.
So. Do you get:
1. Caster level 15, save DC 15? (You use wizard because it's the highest level.)
2. Caster level 15, save DC 18? (You use wizard for CL, but charisma as your casting stat because it's better.)
3. Caster level 5, save DC 18? (You use charisma, because it's the best casting stat, and are then stuck with the levels of that class.)
4. Your choice of CL5/DC18 or CL15/DC15, but you must pick one or the other.
5. A heartfelt note of apology to your parents, explaining that all things considered, the other players really had no choice but to put you down. It was for the best.
Are we throwing out any degree of sense and trying to get as RAW an answer as possible or what?
Okay. RAW this is how I think it is and my logic that follows.
SRD wrote: Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you're emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don't need to make this check. I read this paragraph as not necessarily always needing to apply to scrolls only. It also says if you have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don't need to make this check.
SRD wrote: Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. Example time. Our Rogue has a UMD of +23. He rolls a 7 and has a 15 Charisma for his emulation. If he already had a 15 charisma he wouldn't need to make this check. The staff of Fireball he is using was crafted by a Sorcerer(so we know what stat he needs). He uses the minimum caster level(which is 11) for his usage. He has a DC of 15 due to his Charisma(emulated or not).
Example 2. Our Wizard has a UMD of +23. He rolls a 10 and the spell is considered on his spell list to use the Staff of Cure Mod. Wizard spells are adjudicated with Int for the DC. Thus since the spell is on his spell list now, he is able to use his full caster level and use his Int Mod for the DC.
Example 3 Your Example.
The Wielder CAN use his caster level if it is higher, or the minimum if it is higher. His ability modifier however must be used. He actually gets to choose his option. They are as follows. I don't know how your staff caster level is 8 when it requires 11 to craft so it is minimum 11.
Option 1. Uses Wizard casting, CL 15 DC 15
Option 2. Uses Sorcerer Casting CL 11 DC 18
This third example isn't using UMD thus the spell must be activated using one of your class's spell lists. I believe you should be able to choose between these options.
Long story short: Ultimately, I want to have at least coherent rulings for cases that might actually come up. But one of the ways I find it useful to learn about systems of rules is to poke at unreasonable cases or edge cases and see if those give clear boundaries or directions to look in.
In this case, I think it's pretty clear that the question of how staves interact with UMD was pretty much totally unconsidered; the wording simply doesn't answer a number of likely questions, to say nothing of the unlikely ones. My guess is that the UMD rules were written in terms of wands (you can tell because of the "lets you use a wand" wording), and then later someone decided to clarify that staves were also spell trigger items, but no one actually ever thought about "what if someone used UMD to activate a staff" while working on the UMD rules.
So I don't think there is such a thing as RAI right now; I think this was never considered, and no intention was ever formed. So there is no intended rule, there's just some written rules that are pretty much based on the assumption that a given staff has an obvious corresponding class, only members of that class will use it, and casters will have good scores in their primary casting stat. And questions like "what happens if you're ability-drained enough that your primary casting stat has a penalty, rather than a bonus" or "what about UMD" were simply never part of the discussion.
Oh, as to the caster level: I was assuming a staff that had just fireball in it, not heightened or anything, so the staff's caster level would be 8.
I think I am inclined to agree that you get to pick between your classes, but you get both caster level and casting stat from the same class.
And I like the idea of asserting that, if you haven't got a casting stat, UMD is giving you an emulated casting stat as well. Of course, if you only make the bare minimum DC 20, your casting stat is effectively a 5, so your spell DCs are based on... your ability bonus, not modifier, so they're 10+spell level.
Of course, the spell level is supposed to be defined by your class, so we still need to know which class... but I think at that point we punt and say "the one the staff was built for probably if we can guess and it's obvious".
seebs wrote: Oh, as to the caster level: I was assuming a staff that had just fireball in it, not heightened or anything, so the staff's caster level would be 8.
Oh I see. That makes very little sense. Why would the bare minimum be 8 when only someone with a CL of 11 can craft staffs?
Scavion wrote: seebs wrote: Oh, as to the caster level: I was assuming a staff that had just fireball in it, not heightened or anything, so the staff's caster level would be 8.
Oh I see. That makes very little sense. Why would the bare minimum be 8 when only someone with a CL of 11 can craft staffs? Because it's cheaper to craft a staff at a lower level. That's why they state that the minimum CL for a staff is the higher of the minimum level needed to cast all its spells, or 8. There are several staves with CL of 8.
Scavion wrote: seebs wrote: Oh, as to the caster level: I was assuming a staff that had just fireball in it, not heightened or anything, so the staff's caster level would be 8. Oh I see. That makes very little sense. Why would the bare minimum be 8 when only someone with a CL of 11 can craft staffs? The feat requires CL 11 to get.
Staves have a minimum CL of 8.
You are not required to make staves at your CL.
Scavion wrote: Example time. Our Rogue has a UMD of +23. He rolls a 7 and has a 15 Charisma for his emulation. If he already had a 15 charisma he wouldn't need to make this check. The staff of Fireball he is using was crafted by a Sorcerer(so we know what stat he needs). He uses the minimum caster level(which is 11) for his usage. He has a DC of 15 due to his Charisma(emulated or not). The stave rules do not have any text about who created them. A random stave of fire could have been made by a cleric, a sorcerer, or a wizard. Each uses a different mental stat. If you have to add a casting stat to the information on each stave, you are house ruling.
As above, the min CL need not be 11. The info on the particular staff tells what CL it is.
Scavion wrote: Example 2. Our Wizard has a UMD of +23. He rolls a 10 and the spell is considered on his spell list to use the Staff of Cure Mod. Wizard spells are adjudicated with Int for the DC. Thus since the spell is on his spell list now, he is able to use his full caster level and use his Int Mod for the DC. Cure Mod is available on Bard (Chr), Cleric (Wis) and Witch (Int). You are saying that a caster uses their casting stat instead of the staff's. I agree.
Scavion wrote: Example 3 Your Example.
The Wielder CAN use his caster level if it is higher, or the minimum if it is higher. His ability modifier however must be used. He actually gets to choose his option. They are as follows. I don't know how your staff caster level is 8 when it requires 11 to craft so it is minimum 11.
Option 1. Uses Wizard casting, CL 15 DC 15
Option 2. Uses Sorcerer Casting CL 11 DC 18
This third example isn't using UMD thus the spell must be activated using one of your class's spell lists. I believe you should be able to choose between these options.
I can see this, but what about the non-caster? You have CL 0 (UMD does not give you a CL, only allows you to activate as if you had a CL), so you use the staff's CL. What casting stat do you use? I could see an argument for Chr because it is what triggers UMD, but not any support for one stat over the other.
LazarX wrote: I'm going to say this one last time in an abbreviated form.
Person A is a 12th level Wizard with a total UMD bonus of +12
Person B is an 8th level Rogue with a total UMD bonus of +12
Both will get exactly the same results with the minimum successful roll to activate a staff with clerical spells on it.
If the staff is CL 8, then the Wizard uses it at CL 12, but the Rogue at CL 8. If the spell has a save, the Wizard used Int for the DC. What does the Rogue use? This is clearly not the exact same results.
/cevah
I am currently thinking that, if for some reason you have more than one casting stat, you should get to pick any one of your caster abilities to use, and that would affect both casting stat and caster level.
I am waffling between two rulings for people who do not have a casting stat:
Ruling #1: Your UMD check is also treated as an Emulate Ability Score check to determine your effective casting stat.
Ruling #2: Your casting stat is 0. Since DCs are set by bonus, not modifier, that gives 10+spell level.
Of course. We also need to figure out what level the spell is. Some combat spells have diffferent levels for different classes. Say you have a staff that contains Resonating Word and a couple of lower-level spells, all of which happen to be both on the Bard and Sor/Wiz spell lists.
If it's a wizard spell, it's a 7th level spell, CL 13. If it's a bard spell, it's a 5th level spell, CL 13.
So the staff's CL will be 13. What is the save DC for resonating word from this staff?
Anyway, to get back to the effective ability score: The one concern I see is that a wizard who picked a +2 int race can have a starting int of 20, plus five for inherent bonus from a tome or wish, plus five for level-up points, and a +6 item, for a grand total of 36 int, or a +13 stat mod. A rogue who has no casting ability at all, at 20th level, and who started with a 14 charisma, can have a charisma of 25 just from tome/item, without any level-up points, giving a base +7 to UMD. It's a class skill. Also 20 ranks. That gets us a 30. Let's take the dangerously curious trait, skill focus (UMD), and magical aptitude, which get another +11.
You can get +3 to all charisma-based checks (circlet of persuasion), and there's an official ruling from the devs that a "masterwork tool" exists for every skill, so you can get a +2 circumstance bonus from that. That gets you to +46. Now add in a bard with greater heroism for a +4, and moment of greatness to double it to +8. You're now rolling at +54. Let's say you roll a 1. Your emulated ability is a 40.
Which is to say, you can have a higher stat bonus for wizard spells from a staff than a wizard can. That does seem problematic.
seebs wrote: Ruling #1: Your UMD check is also treated as an Emulate Ability Score check to determine your effective casting stat.
Ruling #2: Your casting stat is 0. Since DCs are set by bonus, not modifier, that gives 10+spell level.
...
You can get +3 to all charisma-based checks (circlet of persuasion), and there's an official ruling from the devs that a "masterwork tool" exists for every skill, so you can get a +2 circumstance bonus from that. That gets you to +46. Now add in a bard with greater heroism for a +4, and moment of greatness to double it to +8. You're now rolling at +54. Let's say you roll a 1. Your emulated ability is a 40.
Which is to say, you can have a higher stat bonus for wizard spells from a staff than a wizard can. That does seem problematic.
You can emulate the stat, but you do not actually have the stat. Therefore, emulating a stat does not help.
Using Staves wrote: Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. This means that staves are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spells, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than those from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependent on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are also harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming spell resistance. Staves do not use the bonus, but the ability score to affect the DC. Therefore, if you have a -3 mod in the stat, you apply a -3 to the DC.
This means both ruling #1 and ruling #2 don't work. :-(
/cevah
On point one: I am pretty sure emulating an ability score should produce exactly the results you would have if you had that score.
As to what staves use: They use the ability score and relevant feats to set the DC. But obviously, the DC isn't the score directly. Rather, it is determined by the score in the standard way that abilities affect the DCs of spells. And the standard way that abilities affect the DC is that it's 10+bonus+level. So a fireball is 13+bonus. And if you have no bonus, you get a flat 13, even if you have a large penalty.
I'm pretty sure it has to mean "setting the spell DC the normal way, using the wielder's ability score" rather than being a whole new spell DC calculation.
Went back to the book to check and I found:
Saving Throw Diff iculty Class wrote: A saving throw against your spell has a DC of 10 + the level of the spell + your bonus for the relevant ability (Intelligence for a wizard, Charisma for a bard, paladin, or sorcerer, or Wisdom for a cleric, druid, or ranger). A spell’s level can vary depending on your class. Always use the spell level applicable to your class. Determine Bonuses wrote: Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table 1–3 shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren’t die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you’ll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster. Looks like you are right, and you apply a bonus if you have one. Ruling #2 looks OK then.
As to the emulating, I don't agree. You can emulate having Lay on Hands or Channeling, but it does not give you the feature. It only lets the item act as if you had the feature in order to activate. If the item required you to actually use the feature, you could not.
/cevah
Hmm. That's an interesting distinction. There's no reference in the text for emulate ability score to anything but casting from scrolls, which of course don't use it. I'd think that the obvious thing would be to have the emulated ability score work that way, but... If it doesn't, that solves one of the obvious ruling problems with the ability, so I like that better. Okay, I buy your argument. :)
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