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Honestly, there's a fairly easy answer to how fast the enemies drop.
Don't drop them. Unless you're showing them the HP every time, make an enemy barely survive a blow if his action is next. Don't do it every time, but the occasional 'what, you dropped him to two HP. Sorry.' can make a big difference.
Also, for your reach guy. He doesn't threaten the squares directly next to him by default. If something survives his first hit, it's now a five foot step to a full attack on his face.
These are enemies with the Worldwound behind them. Start having extra pre-combat buffs of Potions of Barkskin, False Life, etc. at a high CL. If they've pre-drank them, it doesn't give the party anything extra but gives your enemies those few extra points of AC or HP that can make or break them.
Also, meta-game right back at your players. Keep their stats and feats handy and play the enemies against them. If they complain, tell them you'll even the field if they do.
As you've just finished book 1, and by the description of your players, I would seriously look at the effect they may have with a hundred level 4 Paladins in the mass combat. They may try to keep them alive for other uses. Let 'em, but be careful of what they do. If they try to Paladin swarm the couple of places prior to Drezen make sure to reflect that on the overall HP of the mass combat unit.
As for the sorcerer, I would suggest you allow him to respec. There are very few things that'll let him penetrate immunity to an element. Or if he's taken archmage, gift him specifically with the ability to Elemental Spell Metamagic at will as a path ability.
Only two observations for the moment, although I will try to give more tips in the next days:
1.) You are not obligated to have opponents take their AoO's when someone moves through their threatened space. So if you hear your guys metagaming like that, don't take the bait and keep those AoO's for the less armored PC's.
2.) Using Crane Wing depends on being able to use defensive fighting. Which means you need to be able to melee attack someone on your turn. So, unless the Swordlord PC managed to get into melee and attack (i.e. get into range with a single move action, which is not always easy with teleporting, flying demons and difficult terrain), his whole Crane Style shtick doesn't work.
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I had an experienced player start with a pole arm in my seven player party. At this point though, he only uses it on occasion. When I actually looked up the area that a pole arm threatens, which is odd, and the rules for working with them, I was able to maneuver foes into his blind spots, and just keep him wrapped up in melee. Also, monster's with reach can shut down some of the effectiveness of a pole arm as well. If you're using mini's, sketch out the area that's effected by a pole arm off to the side as a reference. It helped me a lot, and nipped abuses of that in the bud.
I'd give the sorcerer a chance to respec as well. Or, give her the option of permanently swapping the elemental types of some of her spells. Let her make the electric based spells fire, acid, or cold based. Not sonic though, don't let her pick sonic. The look of the spell can remain the same, and enemies chance to ID with spellcraft doesn't change (including their ability to spot the element swap), but it let's her be more effective while still keeping the theme.
Finally, from my experience in running games for larger groups and experienced players, there are a few little things. Hit points become a suggestion, add a hundred points, maybe two or three. And if you find you've added too many, take a chunk off. Not hitting well enough against, AC builds, bump their attack up, but maybe drop the damage a bit (don't do this too often, as it can end up in an arms race, and no one wants that. Just one they're getting cocky about it...). Add a feat. Don't matter if it's at the end of a long feat chain, they just have it now. Just that one. Bonus feat!
Most important is to know your group, and that changes shouldn't make them less cool/amazing, just that they are challenged. And hell, if they've built a tight, well constructed party, let them roll over a bunch of minor encounters. Compliment them for how well they've crushed those cultists. Having NPC's nearby be in awe of them. Just don't forget to hit them with some big, harder baddies. Enemies that a reasonably built, or less expertly built, party would be CRUSHED by. Weave their power gaming into a adventure like this one.
The things I did to that mythic chimera. Glorious! Party one was put into almost entirely reactive stance, and was almost wiped out by it. Had to actually power him down a little mid fight to make sure they weren't (so I did, because as GM, I'd powered him too far, and needed to adjust back down to make the fight fun for everyone, and it worked, the group loved it!). Can't wait to see how party two reacts to it this evening!
First of all allow the sorcer player to rebuild his sorcerer from scratch, seriously electricity vs demons? he won't be able to use anything.
I am also considering how the cleric gets +6 vs demons but the +12 unbuffed isn't something out of proportions, especially if you gave them a generous point buy and/or the AP isn't stingy with the treasure.
I consider the "i assume that this creature(s) don't have combat reflexes so i move in a way that proves AoO from all of them so X can do Y without worrying about AoO" to be tactics and not metagaming. I would consider metagaming if the player remembers that stat block of a monster, or checks it in his phone, remembers that this monster doesn't have combat reflexes and then use the above tactic.
What i can suggest to you is talk to your players, tell them that you continue playing like this because you have the issues you told us and ask them to make their builds a bit worse (offer them rebuild) or ask for someone else to take your place behind the screen because you won't be able keep doing what you are doing.
Two ideas:
1) Start pushing your players to DESCRIBE. Instead of "I rolled an 82", get them to describe what their character does. "I raise my sword high, and bring it crashing down upon the skull of the demon"
It's the first step in getting them to care about story, and thereby move away from numbers.
2) Give the sorcerer some like the Amulet of Thunder, which allows spells to be converted from lightning to thunder damage (sonic). Allows them to function, retains the theme.
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Did you not realize adventures are written to be surviveable by new players who.would build terribly designed characters? If adventures were written to be challenging, especially low level adventures, so many new players would get wiped out and thus get a sour taste for the game that many players giveing the game try would quite and never come back. Maybe higher level adventures are meant to be challenging because those players are expected to have stuck around long enough that they would not quite after one fall after so many successes. If you have experienced players who build solid designs, don't fool yourself into ever thinking you are ever going to seriously challenge them. The game rewards offense so much more than defense that you cannot be surprised how hard it is to keep badguys alive for 3-5 rounds. Accept the fact that the game is rocket launcher offensive tag.and designed to be that way so combats end quickly instead of always taking 10-20 rounds like it would be if defense was given as many viable rule options as offense us given.
I cannot help but suspect the AP for Mythic characters is meant to be a power grip for the players.
Do not forget that the AP expects.players to succeed and move on. The story you keep on wanting to tell is the story of the PCs successes. The story is really just the part that you read as a DM, remember that the players will never get to enjoy the story as much as the GM as they will never get all the behind the curtains info the GM gets.. The combats are really just meant to be the playground of the players.
Sometimes when I PC a game.of Pathfinder Society, I worry about how bad the combat looks. Next week when I GM the same scenario and see the statblocks, I realise the badguys were a bunch of chumps and discover the prior week's combat was nowhere as bad as it looked. It was just a sting of really high rolls on one side and really bad rolls on the players side.
Do not feel a necessity to run monsters as they are in the bestiary. Have you ever seen how many feats they have that are often worthless? Skill focus survival does not do much for a fight. Do not feel the necessity to power attack and miss. Consider swapping it out for weapon focus claw or horn.
You are taking damage reduction into account right? Consider the feats that increase DR or AC.
You have to audit PCs. Almost nobody gets it 100% right. I know the rules better than most but still sometimes find errors when I self audit.
Also keep in mind that andventure paths assume 15 point buy, if you went with something like 2d6+6 roll 5 sets and pick one expect everyone to be much more powerful (especially at first levels).
Some good advice in this thread so far not just for the OP but really any new DM, take it to heart. That said I'll limit own advice.
First off, 'i bet these clerics don't have combat reflexes, so...., isn't a case of metagaming, its combat savvy that comes from playing, you should congratulate them on this. Guys a cleric, he's wise but not dexterous, probably, good bet to do just what your player did there. Now if the player starts quoting stats like he's read the module, yeah theres your metagaming.
Second, and this is freakn huge, keep your frustrations to a minimum and don't turn the game into a DM Vs. PCs match. You will always win, until you become known as a killer DM, after which you will always be alone.
Honestly, this probably isn't the best series for a first timer with a group of powergamers. Possibly not even a good group for you to be DM'ing at all since you seem to be worried about telling the story rather than simply rolling empty dice, although your sorc sounds like she has the right idea, maybe not the best mechanics though. That's a good thing to have on your part as a DM, story first, mechanics later. Keep following that and you'll come out fine. This is after all a roleplaying game.
Oh, and uh, +6 on demons eh? Uh-huh. You trust this guy do you? I see. I'd probably give that one a good look. Stuff like that is just gonna get worse later on....
I suspect the cleric is just taking advantage of some situational bonus to hit demons to power attack vs. demons, and isn't power attacking otherwise. That would easily account for the additional +6.
I see this sort of query a lot, and I think a great deal of it has to do with managing expectations on both sides of the table. I'm paying a lot of attention to this, because I'm close to starting my own Wrath of the Righteous, and with two players who are going to, as a matter of course, because that's what they're used to, look to the full casters in the group to solve everything that isn't solved by direct violence, through the use of spells. And to expect to enter any significant fight with multiple minute/level and round/level spell buffs on.
I don't mind if they stomp most of the regular fights (though I will be applying the Advanced template and max'ing enemy HP as a matter of course, as well as periodically adding additional foes, mostly by combining encounters into waves). It's the boss fights I worry about, especially those where the party has a chance to buff up. Because I play like that sometimes too, and I know what happens.
Last week, in between books 2 & 3 of Kingmaker, the GM of that campaign put us against an encounter I think he manufactured himself. I think he expected it to be more dangerous, but because he allowed us to ambush the single enemy, it was a joke. The foe didn't even last a full round. Why? Because we were able to enter the fight knowing what we were up against, with appropriate defensive and offensive buff spells in place.
So the general tips I've picked up from the forums (some of this will be redundant):
- Know your players, obviously. Know what they want, and can do, as both players and characters. That means both looking over character sheets periodically and talking to the players about their characters and playstyles. When looking at the character sheets, you're looking to understand any rules they're using, checking for math errors, and keeping an eye on character wealth (more to adjust loot and challenges than to take it away). Understand how the players want to handle combats; should every combat be a serious challenge? If so, you may even want to hand-wave the easier combats into narrative.
- This also means coming to an understanding with the players as to what to emphasize. Some players want nothing but combat after combat, interspersed with treasure and leveling up. Some players want a lot of time spent roleplaying. Find something that both you and the players can be happy with. Then tailor the campaign to that much combat, that much roleplaying. Discuss what levels of metagaming are suitable, and remember that many enemies are as intelligent as PCs.
- The easiest ways to boost encounters are the Advanced template and max HP for NPCs.
- Play the enemies, especially the boss-grade enemies, actively and dynamically. Creatures in nearby rooms will respond to the sounds of combat, not just wait around for the PCs to enter their room. Spellcasters will cast their buffs, even ones not listed in their tactics block. A spellcasting boss may show up to assist against the party for a round or two before retreating to the next strongpoint. Feel free to adjust some of the spells known or prepared.
- Addition to above, but merits its own bullet point: if the party retreats, the enemy will find reinforcements if at all possible. They'll set up more defensible positions, difficult terrain, traps, and the like.
- If the party is standing outside a room they're sure contains a boss fight, and buffing, then the boss is either in there, also buffing and summoning, or the boss isn't even there. If the party relies on being able to pre-buff for every combat they expect will be major, then fake them out occasionally, or have the enemy get away. Also don't forget that many spellcasting enemies can dispel, and that the enemies who paused outside your door for a solid minute of chanting are coming in stuffed to the gills with dispellable magical effects - trying to remove those is just good sense.
- Unless you've agreed with the players to focus only on the major combats, make sure they have too much adventuring time to be able to do the 15-minute workday. Find ways to slow them down so the minute per level buffs don't last for the entire dungeon (anything to get them to pause, even just longer hallways and bigger rooms to make travel take longer).
- More enemies generally trumps one big enemy. This is mostly because of action economy and vulnerability to debuffs, but also because when you have to power up just one foe enough to challenge an optimized party, you really get into rocket launcher tag. If you're only going to have one or two rounds to act, you've got to get all your impact and threat in those two standard actions. Which means those have to be particularly deadly. If, instead, you've got a few enemies, not all clustered where one spell can cripple them, you've got far more actions to take, and you can disperse a similar total amount of damage to the party. Basically this gives you a chance to challenge the party without playing into an AC/save bonus arms race, where the party starts pushing their defenses up to incredible heights because every failed save kills. It also makes action-denial less able to entirely shut down an encounter.
- Space is your friend. If the party opens the door and the fighter is a 5-ft step away from the enemy wizard, then the enemy wizard is going to have a very bad time. If the fighter has to cross 20 or 30 feet of difficult terrain, maybe a trap, maybe just an improvised trap or hazard - spill that brazier of coals or something, just enough to make the party think twice before just charging.
The Sunder chain of feats is pretty much the way the way to go to break weapons. As for stealing them, Rogue, high levels of stealth and sleight of hand, come in the night when they sleep.
One last bit of requesting advice though: If I wanted to break or steal a PC's weapon, how would I best go about doing it? I want to sort of kick the table leg out from a PC or two and make them think or act differently.
I highly suggest talking with your player(s) (outside the game) about this before you do it in the game. Explain your reasoning and they may be fine with it. But, every player I have DMed for would quit playing if I just did something like this to them with no warning. People dislike being told they can not do something and playing their characters how they built them to be played is top of that list for many of us. Yet, if tell them what you want to do (and why) and give them the option of going along with it or not they will likely go along with it.
As for the metagaming problem: If they said, "I'm going to charge through the line of enemy clerics so as to draw their attacks away from my friends!" Rather than talk about attacks of opportunity and such would you that better? If so then tell them that you'd rather hear the characters thoughts on why he would do the action rather than the meta comments and that the characters have no concept of game mechanics.
Talking to the players is always the key.
Sunder works fine, especially since a sundered weapon can be repaired with mending or make whole. Or, if the item isn't particular valuable or sentimental, just replaced.
But the question is why you're doing that. And especially the perception by the players. If the fighter feels like you're taking his specialized, expensive, important-to-his-effectiveness weapon away, he may be quite angry, especially if it feels either arbitrary or like a punishment.
One fighter I'm playing has this awesome, overpowered, far-too-good sword (it's about a +12 equivalent, and only +3 of that is actual enhancement). Early on, when it was just a +1 keen with potential to do something more awesome that wasn't yet specified, it was nearly destroyed by a bad fight with a Remorhaz. I was about ready to just walk away from the game. If something similar happened now, I probably would (I didn't design the item, and well over half of the character's offensive combat capability is tied up in that sword). An item that's important should never be destroyed or taken away unless it's part of the story.
If the players managed to get an item that's just too good, you could destroy it or take it away, or you could sit down with the players, discuss why the item is too good, and weaken the item, or have it have limited charges that run out, or have it stolen (with player, but not character, agreement), and not recoverable either ever, or until it's appropriate to the party again.
Regarding Metagaming; I have a very experienced player at the table who dominates the in battle conversation with "recommendations."
Often they would take long discussions over their next courses of action (especially out of combat) for issues like how to cross the river without having to cross at Villareth ford recognizing the tactical threat is posed.
There simply comes a time when you have to put your GM hat on. I started off our last session and cautioned the party; "where you may know the various spells available in depth as player; you might of the PFSRD open and can look at the spell list; I will grant that even your bard may know ""a little bit of that"". Your characters in general do not share in that knowledge."
Play your roles or I will have to start penalizing your experience for poor role play.
I expect party members to ask the wizard "do you know of any spell to cross the river" and if he cannot think of one, they do not start listing off spells like they have +15 in Knowledge: Arcana. You say "damn" and walk away.
Likewise in battle; I limit table talk on "how to fight." Players may call out "tactics" as a free action. "Get behind him!!!" to encourage flanking or "Hold your fire I've a surprise up my sleeve" to create a delayed action.
If it crosses the boundary between description and cinematography into metagaming between the players simply penalyzing them their action for that round often is enough to get the message acoss; to JUST PLAY THE GAME not the rules.
I don't punish the players as much as it may seem.. I manage their expectations. If an ability is too powerful I tell them; if their course of actions is out of line with their character I tell them.
It' a high fantasy world; I am not beyond having Gods talk to mortals in their dreams and having them pay penance or ask for sacrifice.
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on a side note; to make encounters difficult; think 3 dimensions and removal of senses always works; demons have wings and simply placing them 20feet in the air is a great equalizer as well as archers on battlements. Losing sight, sound, touch... all can impact part dynamics. People often say you cannot cast because you are silent. Telling players they may not communicate to each other in the presence of a silence spell is something many GMs forget to do; it interupts the metagaming ability when player can only directly say their actions to the gm.
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One rules related bit of advice - don't forget that reach weapons use the cover rules for ranged weapons.
One general piece of advice - ask your players whether they're enjoying the campaign or whether they'd like it to be more challenging, and if the latter get some consensus about how this should be done.
Richard
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well, I gave them point buy (20pts) and they are fairly competent players so the characters are well built. We're using mythinc rules and they love them.
Other than that, now that we're halfway trough Citadel, I started combining encounters at points - that reduces tedious string of encounters and beefs up existing important ones.
I loved whoever made 6player conversions of kingmaker but alas there is no such things on this thread for now.
One more thing - has anyone been leveling up NPCs?
I'm using them a lot (outside the missions mostly) but it would still be handy to have their stats.. i should upgrade them in HeroLab ut I can't find the time atm
The damage your listing isn't that high. In the WotR game I'm playing in, my parties Ranger (L6/T1) does around 100 damage a round if he hits. Mythic rules make for obscene damage and situations for even greater disparity between players than normal Pathfinder. If you're having problems handling a normal group, be aware the damage just ramps up more and more.