Is it just me, or are Oracles objectively worse than Clerics?


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I like Oracles as a concept, but lets look at them mechanically:

They have a slower progression of spell levels than the Cleric, but this is balanced by them casting spontaneously, as is the case with Sorcerers and Wizards. The problem is, the Cleric spell list doesn't have a lot of spells that synergize well with spontaneous casting. Most of the spells that do are Cure/Inflict spells, which Clerics can also cast spontaneously, Oracles just kind of lose out here.

Clerics gain bonus spells from two domains. They get a bonus slot with which to use these spells, one at each spell level. Oracles gain bonus spells from one Mystery, and do not receive a bonus spell slot. They do receive more spells per day, however, so we could argue that this is a wash. However...

Clerics also gain special abilities from two Domains. Oracles only gain abilities from one Mystery. Yes, they also get a Curse, but that cancels itself out by being both a benefit and a detriment at once. At best, you could say Oracles get one and a half special abilities, versus the Cleric's two.

Clerics also get Channeling, which Oracles can only gain via the Life Mystery, and which comes out of their allotment Revelations.

So basically, Oracles get half as many bonus spells and one less class ability, in exchange for being able to cast without a Divine Focus. Making matters worse is that the actual design of many of the Mysteries are problematic. It's a medium-armor wearing class that has several mysteries that give it a highly limited armor spell that is *inferior* to Medium Armor, and remains behind the curve of what the player could buy with magic armor. Even the "good" Mysteries, like Battle, seem like the best they can do is make you into a slightly inferior Fighter who can heal a little...otherwise known as a bad Paladin.

Revelations like Dweller in the Darkness allow an 11th level Oracle to do something that a 7th level Wizard could do. Spray of Shooting Stars gives you the ability to cast an inferior Fireball in a 5-foot radius (i.e. unlikely to hit more than 1-2 creatures) only once per day until 5th level, when you can do it twice.

I'm earnestly curious about what the thought was behind the design of this class. The Life Oracle seems like an interesting experiment in healing/buff mechanics, but for something like a Time or Flame Oracle, what is their actual role? They have few if any support abilities, their offensive abilities are objectively inferior to those of an offensive caster, their defenses are inferior to a defensive class...so what are they?

EDIT: I almost forgot, Oracles also have two bad saves, versus the Cleric's two good saves.


Eh, I think some of what you are saying underplays the Oracle. Here's how I'd break it down:

- HD/BAB are the same
- Skills: Oracle gets 2 extra skill points over the Cleric
- Saves: Cleric has a higher Fort save, same Will/Reflex.
- Proficiencies: About the same (same starting, can get extras)
- Spellcasting: Spontaneous w/ free cure/inflict known vs Prepared w/ spontaneous cure/inflict. If I'm to feel that sorcerers spellcasting and wizard spellcasting are about equal, I'm going to do the same for oracle and cleric.

From here it's "about equal". So we can look at what kinds of abilities the classes get.

Clerics get 2 low level, and 2 mid level (4th-8th) abilities, plus Channeling. Total of 5 abilities, most low level/non-scaling in power.

Oracles get 6 choose-able abilities, most are scaling and some are quite high level in power. They also get a 7th one as an end-cap ability as well (tho few play at that level for it to matter much).
They also get their curse, which starts granting benefits that outweigh the detriment (deaf but no penalty on spellcasting without hearing, and then tremorsense later on, etc). At worst, you can call this a non-plus.

While an Oracle's abilities aren't always stellar choices, for every poor armor ability you feel isn't that great, the Cleric has a wimpy touch attack he'll probably never use.

Overall, I think the two classes are quite balanced. Having played an Oracle into the higher levels (14th I think? Around there), I can say it doesn't feel particularly weaksauce. I can tell you that the spontaneous casting works for the Oracle just as well as it works for the Sorcerer. Just need to pick the right spells, and get scrolls/wands for the stuff you don't want taking up a spell known slot.

For "what role does this class offer", it seems like a class that can gain quite a bit of utility over his normal spellcasting. Extra skills/skillpoints help with this, along with the mystery or curse bonuses.
My Life Oracle (beyond combining massive healing with shield other) has quite a bit of side-utility outside of combat. Knowledge and Social skills over and above utility spells.


Just an aside, because this topic interested me enough to read... have they ever weighed in on why the Sorcerer kept 2+Int skill points, or does it come down to having to stick to OGL on certain things? It just seems like a balancing factor for the Oracle is the raised skill points in relation to the Cleric, and the Sorcerer gets far fewer seeing that the Wizard uses Int to cast and gets more from that already.

OT: I think that the points made here are good ones. The Oracle has more variability in their special abilities, and less in their spell selection. I think, from a roleplaying perspective, the Oracle has SO much flavor simply built in. And mechanically, I do believe they are balanced.


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I would not say the cleric is better than the oracle; I've yet to play either, but i've experimented with builds. I've also heard a lot of chatter. My general impression is that they are a very powerful magical specialist; life oracles are the best healers, "burned hands" oracles are among the best blasters. They are also less MAD than the cleric since they can get AC of their casting stat (a few of them anyway). Just my 2cp


I think that there is a point that we're overlooking that does weaken the Oracle when compared to the Sorcerer it is based off of. A wizard begins play only knowing a limited amount of spells and can try to add more to his repertoire by buying or finding scrolls. A Cleric instantly knows all the spells on her list.

The sorcerer's limited spontaneous spells don't hurt as much, since it's a financial and time burden to the wizard to find every possible spell he might want or need; but the Oracle's spell selection versus the cleric's immense options is really, really unfortunate. I feel like an oracle should be able to load spells from the Cleric's list in the same way they load orisons. In this way, the class becomes a bit more comparable with the Cleric.

Shadow Lodge

its just you...

there are 3 aspects of combat for a cleric, healing, melee/ranged damage, and casting (support/damage/debuffing). now a cleric can do all 3 of these very well at the same time, but an oracle can do any one of these extremely well, while being good at the other 2.

example:

a life oracle is 100x better then a healing focused cleric

a metal or battle oracle is 100x better at physical combat then a cleric who focuses on physical combat

a dual cursed lore oracle is 100x better then a cleric at the support buffing/debuffing casting role.

but this doesn't mean that the oracle is better over all then the cleric, because the cleric can do all 3 at the same time just nowhere near as good at one aspect.


The Oracle loses out on a high Fort save (a typically physical combat heavy save) but gains extra skillpoints and synergy with their Charisma casting stat.
So a bit less "in-the-thick-of-it" for more social/skill utility.

The Sorcerer compared to the Wizard, on the other hand, doesn't really compare in the same way. Both are not really into physical combat, nothing really given up that would indicate why they'd get a bonus.
They do get Bluff, Intimidate and Use Magic Device as class skills along with their Charisma casting stat, so there's something. But yeah, if you think spontaneous casting vs prepared casting is about equal, then there's not much reason for it.

.

Now, all that being said.. I personally think that spontaneous casting isn't that big of a benefit that it requires delayed spellcasting. I've DM'd a game where we played a notoriously tough AP and the delayed spell level was actually quite harmful (the AP assumed level assumes you have access to certain spell levels, especially for defenses). We played the Oracle with normal progression spellcasting and it was *not* overpowered at all.

But that's neither here nor there for this discussion, just my personal thoughts on spellcasting in general.


The cleric spell list is pretty bad for spontaneous casters, especially the lower levels. It gets better at higher levels, then goes back to being mediocre for a little bit before finally yielding miracle (which is awesome for a spontaneous caster). My experience playing a low level oracle was a lot of color sprays in combat. Besides that issue, I think oracles are generally decent, from a mechanical standpoint. Sure, there are some bad choices for revelations, but don't pick them. The good revelations are generally much better than domain powers and you get them more often. The curses vary quite a bit in how big the downside is. Some, such as clouded vision, have very large downsides. Others, such as haunted, have minor downsides. With the right choice of curse, you can get some nice benefits minimal or no harm. If you are going to be wearing heavy armor all the time anyway, then from 10th level on, there's really no downside to the lame curse.

Only getting one bonus spell known per spell level does hurt a lot. The cleric spell list is pretty narrow and extra options help. Avoiding cheesy use of paragon surge, you still have some options, some more costly than others. Two curses (blackened and haunted) give you extra spells known. Improved eldritch heritage for the 9th level arcane bloodline ability gives you a few sorcerer spells known. These don't help too much at low levels, but it gets better as you level.

Clerics edge out oracles overall (prepared casting is better than spontaneous casting, especially with the asinine idea that spontaneous casters should wait an extra level for their spells), but oracles are still useful.


I have said it many times before and I will say it again. A cleric is a generalist divine caster. An oracle is a specialist divine caster.

The first argument I'll make is the same with wizard vs. sorcerer. Clerics have the entire list of spells to choose from. They have less spells per day. This makes them far more versatile, but slightly less dependable since they can't typically cast the same spells over and over.

Secondly, don't overstate the usefulness of the channel energy. Without investing into it, it becomes a cheaper way to heal out of combat instead of using resources. At best, with some feats in it, it's a decently reliable way to heal in combat (namely with quick channel and selective channel).

Most domain powers don't match some of the powers of revelations. Pointing out "armor" revelations should be like comparing those abilities to the worst domain powers. There are definitely some bad revelations out there, but those typically don't get chosen...just like the worse domains don't typically get chosen. Now, when you look at some of the better revelations...Flame oracle can be a fire elemental for hours/day, Battle oracle can cast cure spells as swift actions and eventually roll initiative 3 times, Heavens oracle can be a color spray monster with Awesome Display, etc.

On the topic of revelations, oracle revelations tend to further a specialization cause rather than domain powers, which usually just give the cleric extra abilities. Again, versatility vs. specialization is the key difference to the cleric vs. oracle.

Saves...you got me there. I'm not exactly sure why they don't have a good fort save. It's just the way it is.

With smart spell choices and good building practice, an oracle can be just as effective of a character as a cleric...just in a different way.

And comparing a battle oracle to a paladin is hardly fair. Paladins don't have a full spellcasting progression. :p

As a side note, I have actually used my armor revelation for my Dark Tapestry oracle to great effect. It's great to have an armor bonus there when he uses his Many Forms revelation to shape change (which is what he always does in combat).

I know of the 7 or 8 oracles I've made so far, no one thought they were weak. I can't tell you the number of times casting freedom of movement on everyone has saved the party. :p


Many divine spells are situational, but when you do need them you need multiple castings, which is exactly when spontaneous casters shine over prepared.

I think revelations are generally much better than domains, and there's the extra revelations feat to get them all. The curse is pretty nifty too, and I love the feel of the class and the variety of the mysteries.

All that and 2 extra skill points, the experimental spellcaster for a word every level, and the human favored class or half-elf paragon exploits, and if anything I think the oracle obsoletes the cleric, barring situations where the delayed spell level really stings.


TheSideKick wrote:

its just you...

there are 3 aspects of combat for a cleric, healing, melee/ranged damage, and casting (support/damage/debuffing). now a cleric can do all 3 of these very well at the same time, but an oracle can do any one of these extremely well, while being good at the other 2.

example:

a life oracle is 100x better then a healing focused cleric

a metal or battle oracle is 100x better at physical combat then a cleric who focuses on physical combat

a dual cursed lore oracle is 100x better then a cleric at the support buffing/debuffing casting role.

but this doesn't mean that the oracle is better over all then the cleric, because the cleric can do all 3 at the same time just nowhere near as good at one aspect.

Being better than a cleric at physical combat isn't the same thing as being "good" at physical combat. The Cleric is "good enough" at combat, support, and debuffing that having one around is great. Outside of the Life Oracle, I don't think the class is good enough at any one area to be worthwhile in a party. I'd love to be proven wrong though, and I may try running one in PFS to see how it works out in play.


Cult of Vorg wrote:

Many divine spells are situational, but when you do need them you need multiple castings, which is exactly when spontaneous casters shine over prepared.

I think revelations are generally much better than domains, and there's the extra revelations feat to get them all. The curse is pretty nifty too, and I love the feel of the class and the variety of the mysteries.

All that and 2 extra skill points, the experimental spellcaster for a word every level, and the human favored class or half-elf paragon exploits, and if anything I think the oracle obsoletes the cleric, barring situations where the delayed spell level really stings.

Better than Domains? Luck, Travel, Freedom (or is it Liberty?), I think even Magic is better overall than most Mysteries.


spectrevk wrote:
Cult of Vorg wrote:

Many divine spells are situational, but when you do need them you need multiple castings, which is exactly when spontaneous casters shine over prepared.

I think revelations are generally much better than domains, and there's the extra revelations feat to get them all. The curse is pretty nifty too, and I love the feel of the class and the variety of the mysteries.

All that and 2 extra skill points, the experimental spellcaster for a word every level, and the human favored class or half-elf paragon exploits, and if anything I think the oracle obsoletes the cleric, barring situations where the delayed spell level really stings.

Better than Domains? Luck, Travel, Freedom (or is it Liberty?), I think even Magic is better overall than most Mysteries.

Come on. Don't compare the few best domains unless you compare it to the few best mysteries. Do note that most domains have pretty awful abilities in which mysteries(even the bad ones) have atleast one or two good options.

Best of all the Oracle isnt bogged down by a class "feature" like channel energy.

The Oracle actually HAS class features as opposed to the grand total of 5 that clerics get.

Shadow Lodge

spectrevk wrote:


Being better than a cleric at physical combat isn't the same thing as being "good" at physical combat. The Cleric is "good enough" at combat, support, and debuffing that having one around is great. Outside of the Life Oracle, I don't think the class is good enough at any one area to be worthwhile in a party. I'd love to be proven wrong though, and I may try running one in PFS to see how it works out in play.

your logic is flawed. a metal/battle oracle is one of the best physical damage dealers in the game. so its not just better then a cleric, its better then most classes.

and just remember that what you think is irrelevant, when you don't have a grasp of the class.


Scavion wrote:
spectrevk wrote:
Cult of Vorg wrote:

Many divine spells are situational, but when you do need them you need multiple castings, which is exactly when spontaneous casters shine over prepared.

I think revelations are generally much better than domains, and there's the extra revelations feat to get them all. The curse is pretty nifty too, and I love the feel of the class and the variety of the mysteries.

All that and 2 extra skill points, the experimental spellcaster for a word every level, and the human favored class or half-elf paragon exploits, and if anything I think the oracle obsoletes the cleric, barring situations where the delayed spell level really stings.

Better than Domains? Luck, Travel, Freedom (or is it Liberty?), I think even Magic is better overall than most Mysteries.

Come on. Don't compare the few best domains unless you compare it to the few best mysteries. Do note that most domains have pretty awful abilities in which mysteries(even the bad ones) have atleast one or two good options.

Best of all the Oracle isnt bogged down by a class "feature" like channel energy.

The Oracle actually HAS class features as opposed to the grand total of 5 that clerics get.

Fair enough. I still think that, on average, a cleric is objectively better than an Oracle. Better saves, none of their class abilities inhibit them, and the Oracle's primary benefit (spontaneous casting) is largely useless when paired with the Cleric/Oracle spell list.


spectrevk wrote:


Fair enough. I still think that, on average, a cleric is objectively better than an Oracle. Better saves, none of their class abilities inhibit them, and the Oracle's primary benefit (spontaneous casting) is largely useless when paired with the Cleric/Oracle spell list.

Its important to note that because of how few features the Clerics actually get we're unlikely to get many archetypes. Over the course of the time the cleric has been out we've gotten 9 archetypes. The Oracle has 8. If you count racial archetypes, the Oracle actually has more.

Oracles have a greater variety of potential party roles they can take.

Scarab Sages

My only complaint about Oracles is that they don't get their deity's favored weapon, like Clerics and Inquisitors do. I understand that they're not supposed to be quite as superglued to a deity as those other two, but Mysteries still mention associated deities, and some settings (such as Golarion) require all divine magicians to name a divine patron. I've always been interested in making an Oracle of Groetus, and I'd love a heavy flail to go with it.


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You mean your oracle, cursed by the gods, doesn't get a deities favored weapon proficiency?

Paizo Employee Design Manager

It's just you. The "drawback" of Oracle curses are actually generally great buffs, Mysteries and Revelations kick the snot out of Domains, and Oracles have even got a couple ways to stat-shift and replace secondary stats with their primary casting stat. If anything, I think it's the Clerics who should be a little grumpy about how great the Oracle is.


Ssalarn wrote:
It's just you. The "drawback" of Oracle curses are actually generally great buffs, Mysteries and Revelations kick the snot out of Domains, and Oracles have even got a couple ways to stat-shift and replace secondary stats with their primary casting stat. If anything, I think it's the Clerics who should be a little grumpy about how great the Oracle is.

Believe me! I AM grumpy about all the class features I don't get.


Oracles are much more sad. That's a pretty big plus imo.

Cleric also happens to be one of the most horrendously boring classes in game imo. They have almost no classe features. What class features they have are tied heavily to a deity to, reducing your options. Oracles options are actually pretty wide, being able to pick any curse and any mystery(though most mysteries do come with clunkers). Hope you picked a deity with good domains cleric bro. 2+ skill points doesn't give much space either, and being MAD for every other stat means they aren't exactly pumping intellect to make up for it.(Oracles can reduce themselves to being pretty SAD too!) The cleric suffers from limiting archetypes too, many of which limiting and/or getting rid of a domain.

spectrevk wrote:
Clerics also gain special abilities from two Domains. Oracles only gain abilities from one Mystery. Yes, they also get a Curse, but that cancels itself out by being both a benefit and a detriment at once. At best, you could say Oracles get one and a half special abilities, versus the Cleric's two.

Personally I'd rather have a mystery than 2 domains. Domain options are pre decided unless your a cleric of the ideal, and domains don't have any options within themselves really and they do tend to be boring or unappealing. Mysteries tend to have better abilities and you tend to get a lot of them. They also allow me to pick deity and other things much more freely and I'm not anchored in roleplaying at all, which is a very big plus to me.

spectrevk wrote:
Revelations like Dweller in the Darkness allow an 11th level Oracle to do something that a 7th level Wizard could do. Spray of Shooting Stars gives you the ability to cast an inferior Fireball in a 5-foot radius (i.e. unlikely to hit more than 1-2 creatures) only once per day until 5th level, when you can do it twice.

It would really help if you picked nicer abilities to compare them too. You usually don't pick the clunkers until the end. Take time for example. Temporal Celerity is godly for your initiative. Time Hop is great for movement. Time Sight puts a utility spell you will likely use on your list and a few others without taking slots. Aging Touch and Momentary glimpse are... Less amazing. You might take them, but you won't take them until later. Before that your able to teleport around, be absolutely divine with initiative, and you have true sight.

Or how about Nature. Nature's whispers lets you use your charisma for a lot of uses of dex, reducing your MAD and giving you a reason to crank charisma further. Bonded Mount gives you a mount. Speak with animals is flavorful, but not really amazing so you can probably take it later. Life Leech lets you drain some temp HP at some point in the day, not really awful or fantastic imo. Friend to animals super charges any allied animals near you and gives you every single SNA.

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
My only complaint about Oracles is that they don't get their deity's favored weapon, like Clerics and Inquisitors do.

To be fair, they don't need a deity at all. Giving all classes with 3/4 BAB martial proficiency won't break the game though. Much less giving one player a weapon of his choice.


Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
The cleric spell list is pretty bad for spontaneous casters, especially the lower levels.

For me, that's one of the Oracle's biggest issues. The cleric list tends to be fairly heavy on spells that aren't useful very often, but are massively helpful within their narrow niches. Condition removal spells are a real good example of this; getting rid of blindness, curses, and diseases is relatively easy for a cleric (though he might need 24 hours to re-do spells), but an oracle would have to give up 3 of his 4 level 3 spells known to get those spells (and level 3 has a lot of good cleric spells).


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My experience is that players tend to pick a play atyle and stick with it memorizing the same spells repeatedly. The oracle fits well with this play atyle as you pick the mystery that fits with your pre plan. The only area the cleric really is better is when something wholly un planned happens. The cleric can prep remove curse mid dungeon if the grouo rests.

Really its just a versitility vs specialization play style thing. I also think when applied to the actual game wether one is syronger doesn't matter.


The main problem with Oracles is the same problem that the Witch has: Revelations (Hexes) are just poorly balanced. A few are very good, some are decent, but most of it is useless filler. Typically, you get what amounts to a few daily castings of something you've been able to do for a few levels, only it's either worse or picked from the very worst options.


Mojorat wrote:

My experience is that players tend to pick a play atyle and stick with it memorizing the same spells repeatedly. The oracle fits well with this play atyle as you pick the mystery that fits with your pre plan. The only area the cleric really is better is when something wholly un planned happens. The cleric can prep remove curse mid dungeon if the grouo rests.

Really its just a versitility vs specialization play style thing. I also think when applied to the actual game wether one is syronger doesn't matter.

Prepared casting is also more powerful when you have an idea of whats coming up.

Shadow Lodge

Oracles are much more specialized on one thing, which makes them better at that one thing than the cleric, but the cleric will be better at other things at the same time. For instance, an Oracle of Life is the best healer in the game, but its much less of a melee combatant or party buffer than a healing-focused cleric. Likewise, a debuffer oracle of heavens with colorspray and other debuff spells will probably be less of a healer than a debuffer cleric. The oracle is great at one thing, the cleric is good at many.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
The oracle is great at one thing, the cleric is good at many.

I would probably replace "good" with "passable", but I generally agree with this statement. It's pretty easy to make a well-rounded cleric, and there aren't too many ways to screw one up. Conversely, Oracles can be made to be hyper-specialized in one thing and just blow Clerics out of the water at doing that one thing, but they may not be as well-rounded and they've got more "junk options" to sift through, meaning it's easier to make a bad choice when you're building them.


I really think you guys are underrating Channeling as an ability. I've gone through entire PFS scenarios healing the group primarily with Channels. I basically laughed off an undead ambush with a combination of Consecrate and Channeling. It's extra, free healing several times a day, most Oracles don't get it, and they really don't get anything to compensate for the loss.


spectrevk wrote:
It's a medium-armor wearing class that has several mysteries that give it a highly limited armor spell that is *inferior* to Medium Armor, and remains behind the curve of what the player could buy with magic armor. Even the "good" Mysteries, like Battle, seem like the best they can do is make you into a slightly inferior Fighter who can heal a little...otherwise known as a bad Paladin.

Um... the Cleric is limited to medium or lighter armor as well. (I was rather surprised to learn this over Hero Labs, but the rules confirm it. You want heavy armor for the cleric, you have to take a Feat to wear it.)


Tangent101 wrote:
spectrevk wrote:
It's a medium-armor wearing class that has several mysteries that give it a highly limited armor spell that is *inferior* to Medium Armor, and remains behind the curve of what the player could buy with magic armor. Even the "good" Mysteries, like Battle, seem like the best they can do is make you into a slightly inferior Fighter who can heal a little...otherwise known as a bad Paladin.
Um... the Cleric is limited to medium or lighter armor as well. (I was rather surprised to learn this over Hero Labs, but the rules confirm it. You want heavy armor for the cleric, you have to take a Feat to wear it.)

Yes, I know. My point is that Oracles have "wasted" Revelations that essentially just give them armor that is inferior to what they can already wear.

At first level, the armor Revelation will give them a +4, compared to the +6 they could get from Scale Mail for 50g. The armore Revelation only lasts for 1 hour per level, while the Scale Mail is active for as long as you wear it. Then at 7th level, the armor Revelation "improves" to +6. By 7th level, you should have enough gold to easily enchant your Scale Mail to +1 or better, giving you superior AC plus other benefits. The revelation never really catches up to what regualar armor can already do for you.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

spectrevk wrote:

Yes, I know. My point is that Oracles have "wasted" Revelations that essentially just give them armor that is inferior to what they can already wear.

At first level, the armor Revelation will give them a +4, compared to the +6 they could get from Scale Mail for 50g. The armore Revelation only lasts for 1 hour per level, while the Scale Mail is active for as long as you wear it. Then at 7th level, the armor Revelation "improves" to +6. By 7th level, you should have enough gold to easily enchant your Scale Mail to +1 or better, giving you superior AC plus other benefits. The revelation never really catches up to what regualar armor can already do for you.

But the Oracle armor Revelations don't come with Armor Check penalties, and they don't weigh anything, so Strength is less important as a stat for you. The Oracle also has multiple revelations that allow him to consolidate many of the benefits of stats like Dexterity or Constitution and use his Charisma instead. The Oracle can be much more "caster-y" in this regard and single stat up for more bonus spells and more potent abilities. Meanwhile, a cleric wearing scalemail and channeling energy is at at least three moderate to good stats (he'll nee STR, WIS, and CHA at least). The Oracles armor Revelations are generally as good as the best light armor you could have at that level, have no armor check penalty, don't reduce your speed, and often come with some other attached special ability or abilities at some level so while they may not have the absolute highest AC possible for a character of that level, they are solid options and potentially very good depending on your build.

An Oracle who plans on wearing heavier armor just won't take the armor Revelations.

Shadow Lodge

The armor revelations grant DR and improve with level, allowing you to not have to buy magical armor which allows you to sink cash into weapons/stats gear/spell stuff. And the armor revelations impose no armor check penalty. And very few oracles take them because there are much better revelations in most of the mysteries with armor revelations.

For Instance:

  • Heavens:Awesome Display, Lure of Heavens, Spray of Shooting Stars, Interstellar Void.
  • Bones:Death's Touch, Soul Siphon, Bleeding Wounds, Raise Dead.
  • Waves:Freezing Spells, Icy Skin, Water Sight, Water Form, Fluid Travel, Ice Storm


Spray of Shooting Stars isn't really that great. 5ft radius is tiny, and 1d4/level is kind of terrible. It's like getting half of a Fireball once per day. At any given level, even the Druid spell list (which is famously terrible) offers better options (Call Flame, Flaming Sphere, etc.)


You keep focusing on the revelations that are terrible. Lots of the mysteries have revelations you could base a character around.

Let's compare apples to apples here. Good revelations should be compared with good domain abilities. Not terrible revelations to good domain abilities.

Shadow Lodge

spectrevk wrote:
Spray of Shooting Stars isn't really that great. 5ft radius is tiny, and 1d4/level is kind of terrible. It's like getting half of a Fireball once per day. At any given level, even the Druid spell list (which is famously terrible) offers better options (Call Flame, Flaming Sphere, etc.)

Fair enough, but I'd take this over a druid spell any day, since the ability doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity and doesn't require components. Still, remove that from the list, there is still stuff that can't be invalidated like Awesome Display.


You forget to mention that CHA is worse as a stat than WIS.

I saw here being mentioned that metal and battle oracles make better meleers than clerics and i ask, how?
How can such an oracle outmelee a cleric of Iomidae with heroism and tactics? I can't figure out how, the best i can find that such an oracle would have over the cleric is a couple more feats (gained via revelations) that the cleric would also pick but would have to pay for them.

I am not trying to flame or anything with that question, i seriously can't see it.


leo1925 wrote:
I saw here being mentioned that metal and battle oracles make better meleers than clerics and i ask, how?

Well, depends on your mysteries, because those determine what abilities you get. A big thing is how much more SAD the oracle can become and how MAD the cleric is. Also look at how many combat related revelations the oracle has access too and how good they are versus how good the inquisitions/domains the clerics get will be.


MrSin wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
I saw here being mentioned that metal and battle oracles make better meleers than clerics and i ask, how?
Well, depends on your mysteries, because those determine what abilities you get. A big thing is how much more SAD the oracle can become and how MAD the cleric is. Also look at how many combat related revelations the oracle has access too and how good they are versus how good the inquisitions/domains the clerics get will be.

It's not really that much more focused; Clerics only need Charisma for skills and Channeling; most Oracles don't even get Channeling, so it's a wash there. Wisdom is actually a better stat to have as a primary than Charisma, since it feeds Will saves. Recall that Clerics also have superior Fortitude saves, so really, Oracles have more need of Constitution (to make up the save difference) than Clerics do.

There are two types of Oracle (Lore and Nature, as I recall) who can partially ignore Dexterity, but doing so leaves them vulnerable either to Reflex Saves (Nature only replaces Dex for AC and CMD), or Combat Manuevers (Lore only replaces Dex for AC and Reflex Saves). So if we're talking about a melee combat Oracle vs a melee combat Cleric, the Oracle only has one more stat they can dump, and doing so could still screw them under certain circumstances.

Bear in mind also that Channeling (which only Clerics and Life Oracles can do) allows you to heal multiple people at once, for one measly standard action (non-provoking).


MrSin wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
I saw here being mentioned that metal and battle oracles make better meleers than clerics and i ask, how?
Well, depends on your mysteries, because those determine what abilities you get. A big thing is how much more SAD the oracle can become and how MAD the cleric is. Also look at how many combat related revelations the oracle has access too and how good they are versus how good the inquisitions/domains the clerics get will be.

I like how the Cleric is said to be MAD.

If I'm building a battle cleric I assure you I'm dumping the hell out of charisma.

Channeling really is not that great of an ability for a guy whose job it is to smash faces.


TarkXT wrote:
MrSin wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
I saw here being mentioned that metal and battle oracles make better meleers than clerics and i ask, how?
Well, depends on your mysteries, because those determine what abilities you get. A big thing is how much more SAD the oracle can become and how MAD the cleric is. Also look at how many combat related revelations the oracle has access too and how good they are versus how good the inquisitions/domains the clerics get will be.

I like how the Cleric is said to be MAD.

If I'm building a battle cleric I assure you I'm dumping the hell out of charisma.

Channeling really is not that great of an ability for a guy whose job it is to smash faces.

I don't care much for channeling for a cleric myself to be honest. Best in combat use of channeling I've seen is an Assimar Life Oracle who uses swift action channels while smashing faces.


MrSin wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
I saw here being mentioned that metal and battle oracles make better meleers than clerics and i ask, how?
Well, depends on your mysteries, because those determine what abilities you get. A big thing is how much more SAD the oracle can become and how MAD the cleric is. Also look at how many combat related revelations the oracle has access too and how good they are versus how good the inquisitions/domains the clerics get will be.

Thank you for answering.

Sorry i should have been clearer, which revalations? i re-read them and i couldn't find anything that can give the battle oracle over a battle cleric.
And no battle clerics aren't more MAD than battle oracles, in fact because of the cleric's better saves (high fort and WIS casting stat) it's a tad less MAD.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

spectrevk wrote:
****Bear in mind also that Channeling (which only Clerics and Life Oracles can do) allows you to heal multiple people at once, for one measly standard action (non-provoking).

It also heals enemies unless you burn a feat on it, and then there's still a limit to the number of enemies you can exclude. So it's really only an out of combat money-saver unless you're fighting undead or burning other resources. It's also not particularly great healing for the levels it heals, generally healing 1/3 or less of the average hp for that level.

Shadow Lodge

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leo1925 wrote:

You forget to mention that CHA is worse as a stat than WIS.

I saw here being mentioned that metal and battle oracles make better meleers than clerics and i ask, how?

Charisma is a more useful stat than wisdom, because although wisdom is used for perception and will saves and sense motive, there isn't a whole lot of stuff that it uses that aren't class-based. Charisma on the other hand is used for Bluff, Diplomacy, UMD, Perform, etc. And Oracles don't have to worry about will saves as much as some classes due to a high will save.

As to melee, a cleric can be worse than an Oracle of Battle since you can get the Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon proficiencies with Skill at Arms, you can get absolutely ridiculous Initiative with War Sight, you get 3 more feats with Weapon Mastery, getting the second one sooner than the cleric can and the 3rd one the cleric can't without an archetype, DR with Iron Skin revelation, and you get a Pseudo-Pounce mechanic. And you rely one one less stat than the cleric on top of all that.


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You've convinced me...

That oracles are not clerics, and are not meant to be be clerics. Therefore, they make bad clerics. They also seem to make bad wizards, by what you've said.

But then again, they aren't supposed to be wizards, either.

An 11th-level oracle can do something a 7th-level wizard can do? Yeah? The same way a 4th-level ranger can do something a 1st-level druid can?

And?


MrSin wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
MrSin wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
I saw here being mentioned that metal and battle oracles make better meleers than clerics and i ask, how?
Well, depends on your mysteries, because those determine what abilities you get. A big thing is how much more SAD the oracle can become and how MAD the cleric is. Also look at how many combat related revelations the oracle has access too and how good they are versus how good the inquisitions/domains the clerics get will be.

I like how the Cleric is said to be MAD.

If I'm building a battle cleric I assure you I'm dumping the hell out of charisma.

Channeling really is not that great of an ability for a guy whose job it is to smash faces.

I don't care much for channeling for a cleric myself to be honest. Best in combat use of channeling I've seen is an Assimar Life Oracle who uses swift action channels while smashing faces.

It's great for casting-centric Clerics, as it lets you heal the front line without getting up close and personal. It's also really useful in PFS, where (inevitably) someone does something stupid while they're more than 20 feet away from the Cleric.

Shadow Lodge

TarkXT wrote:
MrSin wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
I saw here being mentioned that metal and battle oracles make better meleers than clerics and i ask, how?
Well, depends on your mysteries, because those determine what abilities you get. A big thing is how much more SAD the oracle can become and how MAD the cleric is. Also look at how many combat related revelations the oracle has access too and how good they are versus how good the inquisitions/domains the clerics get will be.

I like how the Cleric is said to be MAD.

If I'm building a battle cleric I assure you I'm dumping the hell out of charisma.

Channeling really is not that great of an ability for a guy whose job it is to smash faces.

Str, Dex (12-14ish), Con, Int (12ish for a few skills), and Wis is still pretty MAD.


leo1925 wrote:
Sorry i should have been clearer, which revalations? i re-read them and i couldn't find anything that can give the battle oracle over a battle cleric.

Battlefield Clarity is pretty good(reroll a save as an immediate), skill at arms is two feats for the price of one(proficiency with martial/heavy), War Sight is downright amazing by making you divine at iniaitive(3 rolls take the best/always act in surprise), Surprising Charge is an immediate action to move up to your speed(psuedopounce/escape), weapon mastery is 3 free feats(free critical focus for my Nodachi/scimitar? Yes plz!), and maneuver mastery makes you good at one maneuver and again gives you free feats(maneuvers mostly suck though).

Not the best formatting, but all those abilities shine imo. Combat Healing and resiliency are both meh, imo. You get a pretty big pile of combat feats, almost always move first, and pseudo-pounce. Not many, if any, combinations of domains is going to give you that.


Channel Energy is also handy in that it heals groups of people. The Runelords game I run has a Bard/Cleric (took 1 level of Bard and everything else in Cleric) and she mostly stays out of combat, using spells, channel energy, and her bow. She's quite effective doing this. (Amusingly enough, she also has the highest armor class in the group as she's one of the few who uses armor and shield (buckler), so she can essentially avoid the ranged attacks lobbed her way. Then again, a dead healer is useless, so it makes sense.)

As she's usually back 20 feet, Selective Channel usually works for her. She's not had to worry about accidentally healing enemies (and if she had to, could probably just select the unwounded enemies to be the ones hit by it in a worse-case scenario). This also lets her use her clerical magic for support rather than healing. (Amusingly, she does have the Healing (Restoration) Domain which helps when she does cast healing magic.)

Really, clerics don't need to be front-line fighters. In a support role, summoning help and buffing the group, they can still be quite effective.


ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
leo1925 wrote:

You forget to mention that CHA is worse as a stat than WIS.

I saw here being mentioned that metal and battle oracles make better meleers than clerics and i ask, how?

Charisma is a more useful stat than wisdom, because although wisdom is used for perception and will saves and sense motive, there isn't a whole lot of stuff that it uses that aren't class-based. Charisma on the other hand is used for Bluff, Diplomacy, UMD, Perform, etc. And Oracles don't have to worry about will saves as much as some classes due to a high will save.

As to melee, a cleric can be worse than an Oracle of Battle since you can get the Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon proficiencies with Skill at Arms, you can get absolutely ridiculous Initiative with War Sight, you get 3 more feats with Weapon Mastery, getting the second one sooner than the cleric can and the 3rd one the cleric can't without an archetype, DR with Iron Skin revelation, and you get a Pseudo-Pounce mechanic. And you rely one one less stat than the cleric on top of all that.

Of all the things you mentioned about CHA over WIS only one (UMD) might be useful in combat where a higher will save and perception (becuase of WIS) are more frequently important.

The war sight can be duplicated by the tactics subdomain, sure eventually the war sight is giving 3 rolls for initiative.
The skilled at arms gives you heavy armor prof, the martial weapons prof isn't a huge issue because a cleric of Iomidae already has longswords.
Yes weapon mastery gives 3 bonus feats, one 1 level earlier than a cleric and one that a cleric can't get. The War domain of the cleric gives you (at 8th level) with a swift action access to various feats, granted it's for limited time per day.
And we still haven't touched the heroism subdomain and the early access to new spell levels.

I am not saying that an oracle of battles can't be a good addition to a party, nor that it can't help. I am just not seeing how he's better than a battle cleric and especially how he's 100x times better than a battle cleric.


clearly, you haven't seen the other stuff a battle or metal oracle gets

both can spend a single revelation to both Get ALL martial weapons AND heavy Armor

both get stoneskin without material components a handful of times per day

Metal Oracle Gets:

Armor Training

a Speed boost that can even be taken with the lame curse

the ability to scry through a freaking dagger

the ability to create adamantine and cold iron weapons on the fly

a bonus to fortitude saves that stacks with great fortitude

rusting grasp

free keen edge, wall of iron and versatile weapon

Battle Oracle Gets:

Roll Initiative multiple times and take highest result

3 Free fighter exclusive feats with 1 weapon

a free reroll on saves against crippling conditions

immediate action movement, essentially granting a few daily quick runners shirts

fake Full BAB for a handful of predetermined manuevers with free manuever feats, without combat expertise

free diehard without the hit point loss, and without the staggered condition

swift action cures

free enlarge person/righteous might

most of these boons, are pretty darn good. they might not have a paladins smite, bab, or Cha to saves, but their spells, are much more plentiful than a paladin's and they have more options than a paladin in the form of a more versatile spell list and access to buffs that, while not capable of the Boss slaying boost called smite, are capable of providing a meaningful bonus against all foes involved.

a battle or metal mystery oracle is almost as survivable as a paladin and more effective against multiple foe encounters, paladin does best at killing a single evil foe, oracles don't have an alignment restriction on the foes they slaughter.

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