Duelling Readied Actions


Rules Questions


Run into a problem in a game, and I could use some advice on readied actions.

Character A is 105ft away from characters B and C, who are standing together. A is readying an action to cast Dimension Door if characters B and C get 100ft or closer. B is readying an action to hit A with a spell that will disable/interrupt the teleport. C casts Dimension Door while touching B and brings them in range of A (within say 30ft).

What happens with the readied actions? Does A teleport away before B and C teleport in? Does A teleport away after they teleport in? Does B get to have their readied action go off and try to interrupt the teleport?


It all depends on how the GM interprets the conditions the player sets for his readied action.

By strict RAW, a readied action always resolves before the action that triggered it. As a result, the resolution order would be: B-A-C, with A preempting C and B preempting A. However, since B is too far away to resolve his action he fails.

Personally, I'd rule that character A must make a spellcraft check to identify the dimension door spell that character C is casting. If he fails this check, he does not recognize that the action being taken triggers his own readied action until after it resolves, changing the order to C-B-A in that case. Otherwise, he does recognize this and the order is B-A-C as per RAW.


C casts dimension door Resolving this puts C & B within range of A, triggering A's readied action.

A attempts to cast dimension door. If B readied an action to interrupt any spellcasting by A*, B's readied action goes off in response to A's attempt to cast.

B does whatever it specified it would do to disable/interrupt the teleport.

If A is still capable of completing the spell after B's readied action, then A finishes casting dimension door. If not, A's action is lost.

* If B only readied an action to disrupt attempts to teleport rather than any spell, B would need to make a Spellcraft check to identify the spell being cast. If this check fails, B's readied action would not be triggered. So A would cast dimension door, instantly moving (presumably) out of range of B, and in any case there'd be nothing to disable/interrupt. B would essentially do nothing until the next round.


Quote:
C casts dimension door Resolving this puts C & B within range of A, triggering A's readied action.

That's where this question gets a little tricky. A readied action is resolved before the action that triggers it, so by RAW character A's dimension door resolves before character C's, so character B is not within range.

This doesn't actually make sense (since A has no way of knowing C's target destination prior to C's spell being resolved), so an alternate ruling such as your's is reasonable, but let's be clear that this is not how readied actions normally work.


I am the DM in question. If anyone cares, my ruling depended on the fact that a readied action always happens before the trigger.

1. B and C arrive.
2. A dimension doors away before B and C arrive.
3. B attempts to disrupt A. As it was a readied action, this happens before A dimension doors away, which was before B and C arrived, while B was still out of range.

Here, the problem arises. The disruption attempt must take place before A dimension doors away. This means that, logically, B is attempting to do something before it comes into range of A. This is impossible, and as such it fails.

Edit: In case it is relevant, it was night and the area was dark. B has darkvision 60 feet, which was not sufficient to give it line of sight to A.


I always felt that the wording for readied actions left something to be desired. After-all, you can't really be acting before seeing the action that is supposed to trigger your action has taken place, so, really, it's interrupting that action, taking place after it begins, but before it completes.

In game terms, that means before the triggering action, because we have very few instances of actions that have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and instead have instantaneous effects--THIS HAPPENS.

In the case of A, B, and C, C's casting of DDoor doesn't trigger A's readied action--he's casting a spell, not moving within 100 feet). When B and C appear in front of A (within 100 feet), A's action can trigger, at which point, B's action triggers.

Now, if A assumed that any movement C might take would move him closer, and wished to ready in the event of C's taking an action to approach, then C's casting of DDoor could possibly trigger A's action, if he identified that C was casting a spell that causes movement.


I'm afraid I don't understand what "B is out of range" means. AFAIK, there's no range limitation on a readied action -- heck, they train sprinters to "start on the smoke, not the sound" precisely because they are, in effect, "readying an action" to start running when the starter's gun fires.

Spellcasting is not instantaneous. Assuming everyone make their Spellcraft checks and that everyone phrased their readying conditions properly,...

C starts casting a dimension door spell.

As soon as that happens, A recognizes that C is casting a spell to move him within the specified range -- A begins casting his escape spell.

As soon as that happens, B recognizes that A is casting an escape spell and casts his spell. (Presumably this is a ranged spell, since he will be firing it from 105 feet away. Alternatively he could simply hit A with an arrow and rely on the damage disrupting the spell.)

If-and-only-if B fails to block A's spell, A casts his escape spell and vanishes.

C (and B) then appear next to where A used to be.


Orfamay Quest, it was dark and A is 100 feet away from B. B has darkvision 60 feet. B is not capable of seeing A. Furthermore, the range of the ability that B was trying to use is finite.

Grand Lodge

So, it was Dark... Does A and C both have the ability to see that 105 feet in the dark?


Ipslore the Red wrote:
Orfamay Quest, it was dark and A is 100 feet away from B. B has darkvision 60 feet. B is not capable of seeing A. Furthermore, the range of the ability that B was trying to use is finite.

Well, if a person is not capable of using the readied action, it fails.

If B can't even see A, how can he ready the action in the first place?


Dasrak wrote:
Quote:
C casts dimension door Resolving this puts C & B within range of A, triggering A's readied action.

That's where this question gets a little tricky. A readied action is resolved before the action that triggers it, so by RAW character A's dimension door resolves before character C's, so character B is not within range.

This doesn't actually make sense (since A has no way of knowing C's target destination prior to C's spell being resolved), so an alternate ruling such as your's is reasonable, but let's be clear that this is not how readied actions normally work.

I disagree. Unlike normal movement, C cannot perceive C & B's movement into range until it actually happens, and that doesn't happen until the spell has resolved. You could say that A's readied action goes off after the spell completes but before the movement, I suppose, but that still wouldn't allow the spell to be disrupted--it's already happened.

Another example: Suppose C casts DD to teleport into melee range of A, and A readies an action to hit C when he reaches melee range. When A's attack goes off, his attack cannot disrupt the DD, as the DD had to resolve in order to trigger the readied action. A responded to the result of the spell, not the attempt to cast it.

Your reading of RAW leads to a number of temporal paradoxes that aren't intended to be the result of a mere readied action. It is normally understood that readying an action to disrupt a spell involves doing something before the spell completes, not actually rewinding time. Spell happens before effect; if your readied action depends on the effect rather than the spell itself, it won't interrupt the casting--though it might interrupt the effect.


Ipslore the Red wrote:

I am the DM in question. If anyone cares, my ruling depended on the fact that a readied action always happens before the trigger.

1. B and C arrive.
2. A dimension doors away before B and C arrive.
3. B attempts to disrupt A. As it was a readied action, this happens before A dimension doors away, which was before B and C arrived, while B was still out of range.

Here, the problem arises. The disruption attempt must take place before A dimension doors away. This means that, logically, B is attempting to do something before it comes into range of A. This is impossible, and as such it fails.

Edit: In case it is relevant, it was night and the area was dark. B has darkvision 60 feet, which was not sufficient to give it line of sight to A.

To add to the confusion, how did A know that B and C were a) present and b) moving into range?

Unless there's a way for A to see B and C from 105 feet away (like Deep Sight, maybe), A can't logically prepare a trigger other than "I see them within X feet of me." In that case, A's readied action doesn't go off until B and C appear. B interrupts, and you resolve from there.

If A could see B and C, then the trigger could be "They start moving in my direction". In that case, A would have to know both what spell C is casting and what C's destination is in order for the action to be triggered. If this is possible (and I don't know if Spellcraft would actually tell you the destination of Dimension Door), then you end up with the temporal paradox you described.

Dueling readied actions are confusing. Dueling Spellcasters with readied actions...wow, that just makes my head hurt. :-)

When players say they are readying an action, I always make them define a single, specific trigger that is physically possible. I also give them any different interpretations and make them pick one.

For example, "I ready an action to hit any enemy who comes through the door" gets quizzed "Do you mean 'anyone who is not a party member', 'anyone whom I have fought in this combat', or 'anyone I don't recognize',etc.?" Likewise, if a player readies an action to "attack if the bad guy does something hostile", I force the player to define "hostile": for example, is casting a spell inherently hostile, or does the character have to identify the spell being cast? Then, what types of spells are "hostile"? Clearly, attack spells are hostile, where spells like Comprehend Languages or Tongues are not hostile. But what about cure spells? Buff spells? Escape spells like Teleport or Expeditious retreat?

I always make sure that the player and I both have the same understanding of both the trigger and the action. It doesn't eliminate the confusion completely, but it does minimize it.


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Unlike normal movement, C cannot perceive C & B's movement into range until it actually happens, and that doesn't happen until the spell has resolved

As I said earlier, your alternate ruling such as is reasonable for that very reason, but it directly contradicts the actual rules for readied actions. By RAW, character A's readied action is either triggered by character C's dimension door spell (and thus resolved before it) or it is not triggered by character C's dimension door and never occurs at all. There is no middle ground case in the RAW, and that's purely homebrew ruling.

That's not to say there's a problem with your ruling, and I agree that the RAW makes little sense in this case, but it's still your ruling and not an actual rule.

Quote:
To add to the confusion, how did A know that B and C were a) present and b) moving into range?

The "darkness" element adds an entirely new complication to the problem.

Although, ignoring the "darkness" issue, it does raise the question of whether it's possible to identify the target of a spell before it's cast. There doesn't appear to be any rule on this, and seeing as "it's magic" there's basically grounds to make any conceivable ruling on the matter.

In this case, I'd imagine that casting dimension door would be a pretty obvious means of approach, so as long as character A succeeds on his spellcraft check to identify the spell he can preempt it, otherwise he cannot preempt the arrival of characters B and C because he did not correctly recognize C's spell for what it is. By RAW, character A's readied action is therefor wasted because he could not perceive the trigger before the action resolved.

Quote:
I always make sure that the player and I both have the same understanding of both the trigger and the action. It doesn't eliminate the confusion completely, but it does minimize it.

I'd agree that this is the best course of action. Having well and narrowly defined triggers eases the problems.

Reading the rules for the Dimension Door spell, I'd be inclined to rule that character B loses his readied action unless he has the dimensional agility feat.

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GMs need to be strict when allowing readied actions and sometimes vary from RAW to logically resolve conflicts. If someone readies to "cast scorching ray if the pirate starts to cut the hostage's throat", he's not going to successfully prevent the hostage-taker from completing his own readied action. The scorching ray may burn him down before he can do anything else, but the action that signals him to start (the victim's throat cut) will be completed before his spell is completed.

When readied actions oppose each other and there is no logical way to determine which would go first (e.g.: "The mage readies to throw his fireball orb upon his leader's signal" vs. "The fighter readies to shoot the mage when he hears the enemy leader's signal"), a separate initiative "roll off" should be made to determine which character is "faster off the mark".


Dasrak wrote:
By RAW, character A's readied action is either triggered by character C's dimension door spell (and thus resolved before it) or it is not triggered by character C's dimension door and never occurs at all. There is no middle ground case in the RAW, and that's purely homebrew ruling.

Please quote the relevant rules text that supports that the readied action cannot be triggered by C's movement rather than C's spell.


PRD wrote:

Ready

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.

So if character C's dimension door spell triggers character A's readied action, then character A's dimension door resolves first. If character C's dimension door spell does not trigger character A's readied action, then character A never casts dimension door at all.


A had see in darkness and could see B and C.

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