Well if you buy it all at once its really expensive
But if you buy it over time then its like 5 bucks a month and then a few extra bucks on the big books
You can also spend the time and enter all the stuff in by hand
Its worth every penny
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It's really a great program. What I would do is like Joey said. Get the base pack that's $30. Get Bundles when you can that discounts the add-ons.
Pick 1-2 expansions a month and add them. That's $5-10 a month. Start getting just the books you need.
The editor can be fairly steep to learn but it is usable. I use it all the time (I do data entry and coding for a 3PP).
And that's another thing, now the 3PP are getting in on officially supported Hero Lab releases. Frog God Games with the Tome of Horros Complete and Tome of Horrors 4, Kobold Press with Midgard stuff, Rite Publishing with Heroes of the Jade Oath and 1001 Spells. It's a greatly expanding market.
I definitely recommend getting it, it has changed my games for the better.
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You don't have to buy everything. You certainly don't have to buy it all at once.
Just like with Pathfinder, the earlier you get started, the less painful it is get caught up.
Personally, I think it's a great value considering how much time/effort/frustration it saves me.
-Skeld
I tend to stick to the core bits until I get into something which requires a piece I don't have, and then I pick up that piece. It's been great for speeding development on certain things, and nice for both character generation and maintenance.
-Ben.
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I have all of the HL Pathfinder files. It appears great until you take a close look at everything. There are a lot of feats, traits, and class abilities that do nothing. The makers of HL, Lone Wolf, are just too busy trying to keep up with new releases that they can't fix the bugs. They do fix a few but most are being ignored and more keep being created with each new release. It appears to me that they do almost no testing since if they did they would catch the bugs and fix them before release. If I were you I would save your money and wait to see if Lone Wolf can fix the bugs before buying.
I have all of the HL Pathfinder files. It appears great until you take a close look at everything. There are a lot of feats, traits, and class abilities that do nothing. The makers of HL, Lone Wolf, are just too busy trying to keep up with new releases that they can't fix the bugs. They do fix a few but most are being ignored and more keep being created with each new release. It appears to me that they do almost no testing since if they did they would catch the bugs and fix them before release. If I were you I would save your money and wait to see if Lone Wolf can fix the bugs before buying.
This is very true. And the more complex the character the more likely the program is to get it wrong. It has a problem with multiple similar abilities stacking (TWF and rapid shot for thrown weapons or crossbows.)
For smaller bugs I have found the support team to be very quick and open on fixing them. On issues which are larger or if you ask about implementation of abilities which didn't get programmed into the initial release I have found the techs to be either defensive or rude.
I haven't had any problems with it...
I bought the core and added the extras every couple of months.
I can spend hours making characters just for fun so I think I got my moneys worth.
Hero Lab is a bit expensive and is definitely not perfect, but it is the best character generator available for Pathfinder. When I was a DDI subscriber, I was paying $8-10 per month just to "rent" access to the D&D 4e character creator and all my characters being stored in the cloud. I like Hero Lab's payment model much better. At least, once you buy it, it's yours to keep.
The primary problem with Hero Builder is that if you have a large group, once you're in the mid levels the system starts lagging when you shift to a spellcaster. That said, the current playtest includes some compression systems to reduce the size of library documents that Hero Labs uses and Pathfinder has a lot of. I noticed a decent improvement by doing this. Of course, I also use Hero Labs to track everything for the players as I'm running the game over Skype so... if you only used it to track initiative and hit points then it probably would be faster for you.
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I have all of the HL Pathfinder files. It appears great until you take a close look at everything. There are a lot of feats, traits, and class abilities that do nothing. The makers of HL, Lone Wolf, are just too busy trying to keep up with new releases that they can't fix the bugs. They do fix a few but most are being ignored and more keep being created with each new release. It appears to me that they do almost no testing since if they did they would catch the bugs and fix them before release. If I were you I would save your money and wait to see if Lone Wolf can fix the bugs before buying.
Lone wolf has ALWAYS been very very proactive on the Lone Wolf web sites clearing any bugs and or issues that crop up quite quickly to be honest. I am not getting where you are feeling ignored by the staff at Lone Wolf as it just can not be further from the truth. They do not ignore anyone nor do they ignore bugs and errors as you mentioned. Some are more difficult then others to fix if and when they crop up so they might get put aside for a following update but we will see it fix if it is categorized as a bug.
So please do not come in here and say they do not keep up with them.. as trust me that can't be further from the truth!!
Now as far as testing.. there is a beta team for testing and they do test each and every update before it is released to everyone else. I DO highly recommend Hero Lab to everyone!! It is a very well done piece of software and it can be of use for anyone that uses it. Please do not let the false sense of impropriety from deterring you from doing so! There is even a demo mode to check it out if you like :)
I have all of the HL Pathfinder files. It appears great until you take a close look at everything. There are a lot of feats, traits, and class abilities that do nothing. The makers of HL, Lone Wolf, are just too busy trying to keep up with new releases that they can't fix the bugs. They do fix a few but most are being ignored and more keep being created with each new release. It appears to me that they do almost no testing since if they did they would catch the bugs and fix them before release. If I were you I would save your money and wait to see if Lone Wolf can fix the bugs before buying.Lone wolf has ALWAYS been very very proactive on the Lone Wolf web sites clearing any bugs and or issues that crop up quite quickly to be honest. I am not getting where you are feeling ignored by the staff at Lone Wolf as it just can not be further from the truth. They do not ignore anyone nor do they ignore bugs and errors as you mentioned. Some are more difficult then others to fix if and when they crop up so they might get put aside for a following update but we will see it fix if it is categorized as a bug.
So please do not come in here and say they do not keep up with them.. as trust me that can't be further from the truth!!
Now as far as testing.. there is a beta team for testing and they do test each and every update before it is released to everyone else. I DO highly recommend Hero Lab to everyone!! It is a very well done piece of software and it can be of use for anyone that uses it. Please do not let the false sense of impropriety from deterring you from doing so! There is even a demo mode to check it out if you like :)
Seconded.
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Also, Hero Lab doesn't have a huge dedicated staff. For most of the data files, they have a few contracted authors entering the data with one staff coordinator compiling and adding the new material to the data files. If there is a significant deviation from the basic rules for a new feature, that requires attention from a programmer, who is splitting his time between several different data sets (besides Pathfinder, he's working on getting the Shadowrun 5th Edition dataset working as well as Fate Core). He does get behind on some features, but every once in a while he comes thru (for example, the Black Blade archetype took about 18 months to get fully implemented in Hero Lab, even tho most of Ultimate Magic was available and working within 2 months of the books release).
The pricing is reasonable I think for how much it costs them to produce (I've been a contractor for Lone Wolf in the past, so I know what they pay) and their likely sales volume.
I have all of the HL Pathfinder files. It appears great until you take a close look at everything. There are a lot of feats, traits, and class abilities that do nothing. The makers of HL, Lone Wolf, are just too busy trying to keep up with new releases that they can't fix the bugs. They do fix a few but most are being ignored and more keep being created with each new release. It appears to me that they do almost no testing since if they did they would catch the bugs and fix them before release. If I were you I would save your money and wait to see if Lone Wolf can fix the bugs before buying.Lone wolf has ALWAYS been very very proactive on the Lone Wolf web sites clearing any bugs and or issues that crop up quite quickly to be honest. I am not getting where you are feeling ignored by the staff at Lone Wolf as it just can not be further from the truth. They do not ignore anyone nor do they ignore bugs and errors as you mentioned. Some are more difficult then others to fix if and when they crop up so they might get put aside for a following update but we will see it fix if it is categorized as a bug.
So please do not come in here and say they do not keep up with them.. as trust me that can't be further from the truth!!
Now as far as testing.. there is a beta team for testing and they do test each and every update before it is released to everyone else. I DO highly recommend Hero Lab to everyone!! It is a very well done piece of software and it can be of use for anyone that uses it. Please do not let the false sense of impropriety from deterring you from doing so! There is even a demo mode to check it out if you like :)
Mystic Theurge combined spells ability is still not implemented. That is an option from the CRB. Over two years ago I asked lone wolf when they excepted to get that taken care of.
The reply was something like {begin paraphrase} We are behind on some things, when we have time we will get to it. By the way, not a lot of people are asking about this feature so don't hold your breath. {end paraphrase}
So, "very very proactive" should be taken with a grain of salt when options in the CRB aren't fully programmed into an application which is designed to manage options.
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No character generator is 100% perfect, but I have found Hero Lab to do a better job than most I have found over the years. It is for me at least worth the investment I have put into it.
I have all of the HL Pathfinder files. It appears great until you take a close look at everything. There are a lot of feats, traits, and class abilities that do nothing. The makers of HL, Lone Wolf, are just too busy trying to keep up with new releases that they can't fix the bugs. They do fix a few but most are being ignored and more keep being created with each new release. It appears to me that they do almost no testing since if they did they would catch the bugs and fix them before release. If I were you I would save your money and wait to see if Lone Wolf can fix the bugs before buying.Lone wolf has ALWAYS been very very proactive on the Lone Wolf web sites clearing any bugs and or issues that crop up quite quickly to be honest. I am not getting where you are feeling ignored by the staff at Lone Wolf as it just can not be further from the truth. They do not ignore anyone nor do they ignore bugs and errors as you mentioned. Some are more difficult then others to fix if and when they crop up so they might get put aside for a following update but we will see it fix if it is categorized as a bug.
So please do not come in here and say they do not keep up with them.. as trust me that can't be further from the truth!!
Now as far as testing.. there is a beta team for testing and they do test each and every update before it is released to everyone else. I DO highly recommend Hero Lab to everyone!! It is a very well done piece of software and it can be of use for anyone that uses it. Please do not let the false sense of impropriety from deterring you from doing so! There is even a demo mode to check it out if you like :)
I will say whatever I want and I will not be silenced by you. It is obvious from your statement you do not know much about herolab. If you did you would see the hundred's of errors that have been around for a year or more. Lone Wolf does NOT fix very many bugs. You are just assuming all the feats, traits, and class abilities work. If you would bother to check them you would see the problem. If this were a free program then it would be great but it is not. It is expensive and for the price it should work much better.
Or all of you people complaining about the bugs and the cost of the add ons can in fact enter those feats and spells and things YOURSELF.
Then you can see if your time is more valuable than the money you pay for someone else to have done it.
You know, instead of complaining.
See! He can't be silenced! HE WILL BE HEARD!!!!
I thought the reason hero lab costs as much as it does was because of licensing with Paizo? Maybe I'm mistaken... If that is the case though I'd love it if there was some way for Lone Wolf and Paizo to work together on reducing hero lab's cost because it is a wonderful tool for character creation.
Or all of you people complaining about the bugs and the cost of the add ons can in fact enter those feats and spells and things YOURSELF.
Then you can see if your time is more valuable than the money you pay for someone else to have done it.
You know, instead of complaining.
In fact, that is how capitalistic economics works. I trade my money for a product and it doesn't have all the features it claims to. I ask the company about it and get blown off. I then get to climb up to the mountain top and tell others that the product doesn't do everything it claims to AND the company blew me off when I asked about it.
Others can take my opinion and incorporate it into their purchase decision or not. But complaining is exactly what is called for here.
My first post on the topic was very fair in my assessment of the product, and despite its flaws I still reccomend it to GM's (I don't think it is a great product for players, especially new players) because it is a great time saving tool if you are ok with NPC's that are 90-95% correct without having to double check everything.
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This thread has gotten interesting. I use Hero Lab. I find it fairly easy to use, quick, accurate enough, and makes it much easier for me to prep and run games.
On the cost of the tool: "Expensive" is like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I think the tool is reasonably priced (all the content of a bestiary or hardcover rulebook for $10? Sold.). I will, however, agree that if you downloaded the tool today and wanted to buy the entire library of datasets for Pathfinder all at once, it would be a mouthful. But who does that? Most everyone I personally know that uses it just buys datasets as they come out ($5-$15 every month or 2) or buys stuff only when they need it.
On accuracy: If all the stat blocks I create with Hero Lab are 90-95% accurate, that's good enough. At that level of accuracy, you're talking about the occasional +1 is missing from a modifier. That's not going to ruin your game. Some of the errors will even be in your favor. When one of my players finds a Hero Lab error on his character sheet, I just tell them to scratch it out and go with what they think is the correct value. Back when we used handcrafted character sheets, I don't recall ever running a player that got everything on their sheet 100% correct, and the errors got worse the higher they go in level. Software bugs in HL are like the editorial passes Paizo does on their books, it's never going to be 100% error-free. If that's your goal, you'll find it's cost- and time-prohibative. As long as I feel like their making progress on fixing errors that are brought to their attention (even if they don't assign the same priority to an individual error that I would), I'm satisfied.
-Skeld
EDIT: Also on the subject of accuracy, look at the threads on bestiary/NPC codex stat block errors. Those statblocks are probably running in the 90%-95% accuracy range and they're being generated by the game designers using custom, in-house tools. They consider those to be accurate enough to publish and sell. I'm sure they'd love to be 100% accurate, but they've realized that there's a level accuracy that's "good enough" for meeting their publication schedule and price-point.
This thread has gotten interesting. I use Hero Lab. I find it fairly easy to use, quick, accurate enough, and makes it much easier for me to prep and run games.
On the cost of the tool: "Expensive" is like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I think the tool is reasonably priced (all the content of a bestiary or hardcover rulebook for $10? Sold.). I will, however, agree that if you downloaded the tool today and wanted to buy the entire library of datasets for Pathfinder all at once, it would be a mouthful. But who does that? Most everyone I personally know that uses it just buys datasets as they come out ($5-$15 every month or 2) or buys stuff only when they need it.
On accuracy: If all the stat blocks I create with Hero Lab are 90-95% accurate, that's good enough. At that level of accuracy, you're talking about the occasional +1 is missing from a modifier. That's not going to ruin your game. Some of the errors will even be in your favor. When one of my players finds a Hero Lab error on his character sheet, I just tell them to scratch it out and go with what they think is the correct value. Back when we used handcrafted character sheets, I don't recall ever running a player that got everything on their sheet 100% correct, and the errors got worse the higher they go in level. Software bugs in HL are like the editorial passes Paizo does on their books, it's never going to be 100% error-free. If that's your goal, you'll find it's cost- and time-prohibative. As long as I feel like their making progress on fixing errors that are brought to their attention (even if they don't assign the same priority to an individual error that I would), I'm satisfied.
-Skeld
EDIT: Also on the subject of accuracy, look at the threads on bestiary/NPC codex stat block errors. Those statblocks are probably running in the 90%-95% accuracy range and they're being generated by the game designers using custom, in-house tools. They consider those to be accurate enough to publish and sell....
I agree that 90-95% is acceptable in almost all cases. And I have come trust over time that I will get that level of accuracy with hero lab.
Also, I don't think the price was too much. I bought early and add the supplements I want as they come out.
I just think that if people come to the boards looking for information about a product before they buy it that the information should be good. Herolab does have it's problems, some of them are small, some of them are not so small. Sometimes the staff is open to helping, sometimes they are defensive and dismissive. I bought it and I don't regret it, but it is a tool that has it's place and that place isn't "everytime I make a character"
Edit: One of the bigger issues I've found in HL is also from the CRB; figuring attack bonus for Flurry of Blows. It replaces BAB with your monk level. That's all well and good if you only get BAB from being a monk, but it does not put back in BAB you get from other sources. So it shows a Monk 7 as flurry 5/5/0 and a Monk 7 Fighter 3 as flurry 5/5/0 when it should be 8/8/3.
This actually becomes a really big issue if you add monk levels to bestiary critters.
I reported that issue over two years ago as well and apparently it is not high on the priority list either.
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Total cost I've spent since I've purchased HL roughly 5-6 years ago is $30... Sure I could splurge and purchase more of the official data-sets, but why when I can code the things I need myself for FREE.
I fall on the opposite end of the time-money scale. I find the datasets are cheap compared to the amount of time it would take me to code up all that content myself. The only things I code these days are the custom things I put into my games.
-Skeld
I'm a big fan of Hero Lab, and I highly recommend it. But like any software, it is not perfect. The sheer amount of data and interactions involved are staggering, and I seem to find all the weird corner cases in my builds.
When you build your character, go through and turn on all your various abilities, planned spell buffs, party buffs (bard, cavalier, etc.), to make sure they work as expected.
If you use Hero Lab, go to the Hero Lab Community Repository and pick up Shadow Chemosh's custom adjustment package (free). This adds a comprehensive set of options under "Other" on the Adjust tab, and it's really powerful. So far, I can use it to correct every bug I've run across, and it makes home rules really, really easy.
Also, check out the Hero Lab forums: people will post workarounds for bugs, and if a bug has an easy workaround, it goes lower down the priority list. (For example: the Bloodrager Abyssal bloodline automatically applies the Demonic Bulk power from level 1. Just add 3 levels to get to 4th, turn the Demonic Bulk power off, and then delete the 3 extra levels.)
I myself only have Core, and Bestiary 1, but I code everything else (items, weapons, armor, magical/non-magical, races, classes, feats, powers, traits and even custom content, you name it.) from various source books, and even implement many of the community data into my games.
Aside from the various typos and misspellings in the community and official data-sets, I haven't experienced any real issues with Hero Labs.
Total cost I've spent since I've purchased HL roughly 5-6 years ago is $30... Sure I could splurge and purchase more of the official data-sets, but why when I can code the things I need myself for FREE.
Remember the extra official data sets are only there for people that don't have time or know how to code, or just want the convenience to simply pay the $10-15 per data-set. So the program is only worth on how much you want to invest in, plus any other source books and what not you want to add to this hobby.
As far as the Mystic Theurge combined spells ability, it basically breaks the current way of how spells get listed in each slot. It would take a full re-design of the spell slot code which could potentially break other aspects of the program, not to mention the headaches in trying to get compatibility with players already pre-existing characters that don't require the "ability". I do admit, the Mystic Theurge ability is neat, but very gimmicky.
You can sorta kluge in the "additional" spell slot using ShadowChemosh's Adjustments update from the community repository. Yup just tested it, 3 Druid/4 Sorc/1 MysticTheurge, added adjustment "Spells Known" L1 spell slot for Sorc, and added a second adjustment "Spells Known" for Druid and subtracted 1 of the spells known for L2, and it would sorta work for spell tracking to simulate the new slot being used by the higher slot.
Any chance you can give me a few pointers on inputting a custom archetype? I just can't get it to add up with the editor.
My only problem with HL is that I'm buying the same material again, and I do loathe repeating myself for most anything. If buying the material through HL counted for PFS citation, made pages of the rules easily printable instead of just individual ability descriptions and so on I'd consider it. But, being a programmer myself, I can throw together a tool quickly enough for the niche problems I encounter.
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My only problem with HL is that I'm buying the same material again, and I do loathe repeating myself for most anything. If buying the material through HL counted for PFS citation, made pages of the rules easily printable instead of just individual ability descriptions and so on I'd consider it. But, being a programmer myself, I can throw together a tool quickly enough for the niche problems I encounter.
I've never understood the "buying content twice" argument. For example, the content is available for free in multiple locations, so why ever buy the content?
-Skeld
It's good to buy the content if you ever want to play to primarily support the source of that content so they keep releasing content. :) I also buy all my PFRPG print materials from a local game store to give a tip to a small local business that hosts PFS, my one "home" game group regularly, keeps us supplied with snacks and so on. I've bought a couple AP books for Shattered Star twice, once in print, once in PDF on this site, but that was for the maps so the double purchase wasn't a waste.
A HL purchase would be next to a complete waste to me. Like I said, I can put together tools for my own use as necessary. HL is just an index and I can use the PRD, D20PFSRD, and NA site just fine to duplicate that usefulness. I also have the core books, campaign setting books, player companions in print and vastly prefer physical books if I'm not under a time constraint to put something together.
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I thought the reason hero lab costs as much as it does was because of licensing with Paizo? Maybe I'm mistaken... If that is the case though I'd love it if there was some way for Lone Wolf and Paizo to work together on reducing hero lab's cost because it is a wonderful tool for character creation.
You're paying HeroLab for the time and effort it takes to code in and add all the information to those data set. You *could* do this yourself for less cash (but more time)...or you could pay HeroLab, as they've already done it (more cash, less time).
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Buri,
The thing is WITH Hero Lab you do not NEED to purchase the material twice. With the original software you can pay 30 dollars for it then code in your own stuff not to mention all the stuff that the community has done which is vast in and of itself. Lone Wolf has provided that for all users for free with the ability to add your own material from any source book you would like.
Hence the huge community of stuff available through Shadow Chemosh. So I can understand Skeld's statement of saying he does not understand the buying things twice commentary. Nor do I. As it is available for use if you want to buy it or not.
I wish you luck!
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I thought the reason hero lab costs as much as it does was because of licensing with Paizo? Maybe I'm mistaken... If that is the case though I'd love it if there was some way for Lone Wolf and Paizo to work together on reducing hero lab's cost because it is a wonderful tool for character creation.You're paying HeroLab for the time and effort it takes to code in and add all the information to those data set. You *could* do this yourself for less cash (but more time)...or you could pay HeroLab, as they've already done it (more cash, less time).
Yup, this is exactly why I never felt I was buying the content twice.
At the time I first heard of HL I was well over $100 into Paizo print material. I would have to buy it all over again to get even a modest amount of value out of the application.
I don't care about the abstract example of someone who's just starting out in Pathfinder and is fully cognizant about their options before their first purchase. I'm talking about my unique circumstance.
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I think a useful thing to consider here would be how much it costs to get all the books from Paizo. A lot of the HeroLab-hate seems to be due to the up-front cost if you want to buy all the data packages. But the same could be said of Pathfinder as a whole. Yeah, it costs a lot to buy all the books. But there's a *lot* of content there.
Similarly, paying for all the Hero Lab packages is a lot to swallow all at once. But just like the books, there is a *lot* of data there.
Or, to put another way: do you think it's reasonable to pay $10 for all the content in the Advanced Player's Guide? If so, then why does it chafe so much to buy all the rest of the content at about the same price?
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I don't have Hero Lab, but several of my friends do. Every time I've attempted to use it, it just felt too rigid for my tastes. Many of my characters in my Crazy Character Gallery just couldn't possibly be represented well via that program.
I have herolab and it's been worth the cost.
I love building and creating characters, playing with options and trying out ideas. Yes it has bugs, but I have seen everything updated and fixed after a while. Considering that other companies charge for their upgraded versions and bug fixes, paying once for the datasets and getting fixes and updates for free, it's even better.
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At the time I first heard of HL I was well over $100 into Paizo print material. I would have to buy it all over again to get even a modest amount of value out of the application.
I don't care about the abstract example of someone who's just starting out in Pathfinder and is fully cognizant about their options before their first purchase. I'm talking about my unique circumstance.
Buri again.. you can do it YOURSELF sir. You do NOT NEED to repurchase the material for Hero Lab at all. They give you the option to add the material and even the community has done alot of it already too. So that is up to you.
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All I can say is I've never had one ounce of buyers remorse.
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Worth every penny in my opinion.
My only problem with HL is that I'm buying the same material again, and I do loathe repeating myself for most anything. If buying the material through HL counted for PFS citation, made pages of the rules easily printable instead of just individual ability descriptions and so on I'd consider it. But, being a programmer myself, I can throw together a tool quickly enough for the niche problems I encounter.You are not paying for the material again you are paying for someone to do data entry to enter the stuff into HL. You don't have to buy it, you could enter all the data in yourself.
It's not just the content. You're also paying for the interaction of the content, the implementation of all the rules. For example, so when you have fast movement from monk levels, it won't stack with expeditious retreat, but fast movement from cleric's travel domain or barbarian will stack. If it was just the content, there wouldn't be any bugs.
Buri again.. you can do it YOURSELF sir. You do NOT NEED to repurchase the material for Hero Lab at all. They give you the option to add the material and even the community has done alot of it already too. So that is up to you.
If I were to utilize Hero Lab, I most certainly would have to purchase it again. If I didn't, that would be piracy. Or, do you mean to say I could download the application for free, input all the feats/classes/etc for free, and never pay a dime for using it?
If I were to utilize Hero Lab, I most certainly would have to purchase it again. If I didn't, that would be piracy. Or, do you mean to say I could download the application for free, input all the feats/classes/etc for free, and never pay a dime for using it?
The software itself costs $30. Included as a bonus with the purchase of the software is a license for the core rules for one game system - Pathfinder, 4e, 3.5 d20 OGL, etc.
What alientude said. From that point, you can freely use the editor to create each and every feat, spell, class ability, monster, monster ability, whatever, yourself. Except for buying the software (which comes with one core data package) you don't have to pay a single penny.
Me, I pay. I can code up the odd custom magic item, but I'm not skilled enough to do more than that. I've never felt that the money was wasted. And with awesome community guys like Shadow Chemosh, not to mention extremely active developers, it's great.