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If it plays out the giants die less than 1% of the time. If that is world or game changing to you then we(you vs other posters) have different ideas on what that means.
A giant will not win vs 150 villagers(some will have actual class levels) no matter if you use actual game mechanics or simulate in a novel fashion so one giant against a village is a terrible idea and that is the stupid giant that dies anyway.
Sorry, I'm slightly struggling to understand what you're saying there.
What I'm saying is that prior to Slumber Hex the chance of success of the giant was acceptably low, now it isn't.
That's what changes the world.
If you think otherwise - i.e. that the chance is pretty much the same regardless of Slumber Hex, whether that's acceptably low or unacceptably high, then fine - we have a difference of opinion.
As to what other posters on this forum are saying - there seems to be a difference of opinion there too. It isn't just "me vs the world"!
Cows would be valuable and that giant would not just walk off with one. If you want to play it out the giant dies or is wounded bad enough to not worry about stealing. He is better off killing a deer in the wild.
More likely it is a group of giants like I said, but at that point if a giant is put ot sleep there is a strong chance his buddy wakes him up and another buddy kills that annoying witch.
Well, the raid on Sandpoint, IIRC, was a pretty chaotic affair. Stone Giants weren't "buddying up" at all, and they certainly weren't looking out for stray witches.
I know you said before it was an ambush, but the whole place didn't get wiped out in a few rounds. Had there been witches around they would have had plenty of time to go looking for opportunities to take a few slumber-hex pot-shots.
The two balors are smart enough to know anyone not in armor is likely a spellcaster and take measures to get rid of the problem. Now you might just run your monsters differently than I run mine, but that goes back to my last post which says it is a problem in "your" world. In my world those balors are likely to never see battle, and to me if it is not an actual problem then it is not a problem, and not a changer at all.
I'm pleased to hear it, and I wouldn't dream of interfering with "your" world.
I am interested in hearing how you feel "your" world hangs together, and other people's too. All I'm trying to do is to get a view about fantasy world logicality.
The problem is that when you talk about the Balors noticing unarmored footsoldiers among all the mad melee going on below them whilst at the same time giving their opponent Balor their full attention it feels to me like we're talking about different things. In my mind's eye, this makes no sense, but maybe that's we're no sharing the same vision of the situation.
Richard
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Oh, yeah? My balor fields a vast armor of dwarf skeletons wielding frying pans.Elves are immune to frying pans...arent they?
Haven't you read the Tiffany Aching books from Terry Pratchet's Discworld series?
...and said 1st level witch had to move within 30' of the Balor, and is relying on not only getting that close, but waiting until the SECOND round so they can get the cackle in as well.
Stacks likely.
How does a first level witch have two hexes?
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For the purpose of this post adventurer=anyone with combat skills. I know that does not make them an "adventurer" but it is just a way to seperate combat classes from the normal people..
As for the rest of your post if outlying farms were left virtually undefended that may change dynamics so that a single giant would attack, but if single giants are attacking that means slumber is not really influencing that world.
If the farms were in the village, and not far( too far to get decent help) away, which means a considerable defense could be put up against one giant, the I don't see one giant, not even a hill giant raiding on his own. Even animals understand size and numbers.
In short you would need a giant dumb enough to raid on his own, when it is easier to hunt. I am sure the deer(insert other food as needed) is not as dangerous as a humanoid settlement.
PS: With all of this aside I would like a HD cap for thematic purposes, but it is not really world changing to me.
So I would say that we agree that the solitary raider essentially don't exist, right?
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Location, fortifications, and keeping the other local inhabitants (whether that be giants, dragons, or anything else) ...
The point that you're raising there is about whether you should avoid / appease an aggressor or whether you should stand up to them.
In other words, if there are Hill Giants around, try not to get noticed, and if one does come along the last thing you should do is kill him in case the other Giants see you as a hornet's nest to be eradicated.
The opposing argument would be that if you do kill that Giant then the other Giants might go for easier pickings.
I actually don't know what the answer to this is. It's one of life's mysteries. But you're right - if you believe in appeasement / avoidance then the Slumber Hex Witch will make no difference to you.
At which point, the witch wouldn't be focused on the Balor, nor would the warrior that would have to be the second part of the tactic. They might take a shot at one of the Balors if they got exactly the right opportunity, but they would have their own enemies to deal with, and a host of reasons to get out of the way rather than stick around and try to take down the Balor...
You cannot say what the witch would be doing, and the warrior isn't needed for the coup-de-gras - it's done by the other Balor.
I can imagine that when two Balors crash around the footsoldiers in the battle field it will cause a bit of a distraction. If they just so happen that they roll near a devil with one level of Witch and the Slumber Hex goes off then that particular little skirmish is over.
Like I keep on saying, in the course of battle, there are many opportunities for this to happen.
Countless kings in real life died in battle from common attacks, but that didn't stop future kings from focusing on their noble foes, and ignoring the common rabble surrounding them.
Then if we follow the allegory what you're saying is that countless Balor's die in battle from slumber-hexing witches. I don't think they died before slumber-hex came along, though as has been pointed out before that may have been unrealistic.
A bear doesn't worry about killing the bees in the bee hive as he reaches in for a paw of honey before moving on. The base problem I have with your argument is the assumption the giant gives a flying hoot about the villagers themselves.
I have *no* idea how I gave you that impression.
As for the Balors, no, they still don't care. They really don't. Commoners killed nobles and kings in real life battles all the time, and they were still ignored and belittled by the upper class. The chances of a commoner being able to plan to kill the generals and the kings was virtually nil, so while the general threat may have been there, even if the generals were afraid enough to care, the threat was generic enough to be the battlefield itself as much as any one risk on the battlefield. There generally wasn't a special enough threat to make them sweat, and this case would be no different.
The appearance of Slumber Hex has, IMVHO, made things more dangerous for the Generals. If Balors choose not to care then fine - but more of them will die. Furthermore, the Evil Overlord that takes notice of this "new technology" is more likely to come out on top. Like man-killing technology in our own world, it makes a difference.
Incidentally, on the point about how risky Slumber Hex is for the Witch to cast, I'm not sure that as an SU you make any noise or gestures or anything. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't even think you can tell if someone has *tried* to slumber Hex you.
Richard
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How does a first level witch have two hexes?...and said 1st level witch had to move within 30' of the Balor, and is relying on not only getting that close, but waiting until the SECOND round so they can get the cackle in as well.
Stacks likely.
Extra Hex
You have learned the secrets of a new hex.
Prerequisite: Hex class feature.
Benefit: You gain one additional hex. You must meet all of the prerequisites for this hex.
Special: You can gain Extra Hex multiple times.
A human witch can have as much as 3 hexes at first level. Not that I would spend any of them for cackle. and cackle will not work on slumber.
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Hey Guys, did you know that a 1st level paladin has a 5% chance of not just deciding but actually killing a Great Wyrm red dragon. If said paladin came across the dragon sleeping. Cuz dragons are generally depicted as sleeping for long periods of time. That's the equivalent CR of BOTH Balors. That's something not even an INFINITE number of 1st level witches with the slumber hex could do!
Well, I think the Wyrm would hear the Paladin coming, even with the sleep perception modifier.
Though you raise, maybe inadvertently, two interesting points:
1) The +10 perception modifier for sleeping creatures is not realistic for creatures that sleep naturally in the wild.
2) Anything that doesn't become instantly awake the moment something creeps up on it doesn't sleep naturally in the wild.
This sort of thing isn't particularly realistic in the rules, but then I can only think of one module, ever, where the PCs came across something sleeping and could coup-de-gras it before it awoke, and that's because it was drunk.
Richard
Extra Hex
You have learned the secrets of a new hex.
Prerequisite: Hex class feature.
Benefit: You gain one additional hex. You must meet all of the prerequisites for this hex.
Special: You can gain Extra Hex multiple times.A human witch can have as much as 3 hexes at first level. Not that I would spend any of them for cackle. and cackle will not work on slumber.
At first level you don't meet the prerequisite of having the hex class feature. You need to meet the prerequisites BEFORE you take a feat not as you gain something at a particular level.
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Yes some GMs do let everything in the world be.everything but the rules dont support that logically because so many options make no sense if all options are open to everyone. Golarion would fundamentally not exist because it would be overrun with witches and druids (which according to another hot thread ATM, are the best class hands down) or something. Narrative explanations, setting fiat or some other mechanism ensures the setting exist. My point is taking the unique offerings of players and expanding on them creates waves (hence my reference to the Create Water debate) so at that point, sure, quasit witches rule the ashen wastes of reality in service of their Balor patron masters. Cool game, would tottally play that but it exists in the warp of applying rules on a scale beyond their intended purpose, no?
I accept this.
However, adventures that we find satisfying follow a sort of pseudo-logic that occupies the grey area we might call "acceptable disbelief". As Paizo changes the rules, that grey area moves around, and I think it's important for module writers to try to track this so that they can write background / set-up scenario material that players and GMs are going to consider reasonably believable.
It's important to me, anyway :-) If I write something with a colossal red dragon in the bottom of a dungeon, then I put something in there about how he gets in and out.
Richard
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This sort of thing isn't particularly realistic in the rules, but then I can only think of one module, ever, where the PCs came across something sleeping and could coup-de-gras it before it awoke, and that's because it was drunk.
Richard
"I wasn't asleep at the switch, I was drunk!" - Homer
Check again, at first level, witches get, "Cantrips, hex, witch's familiar". They get a second hex at second level. A fourth level human witch could have 6 hexes.
At first level you don't meet the prerequisite of having the hex class feature. You need to meet the prerequisites BEFORE you take a feat not as you gain something at a particular level.
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At first level you don't meet the prerequisite of having the hex class feature. You need to meet the prerequisites BEFORE you take a feat not as you gain something at a particular level.
That's, actually, not correct. From the SRD:
"When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses."
Richard
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At first level you don't meet the prerequisite of having the hex class feature. You need to meet the prerequisites BEFORE you take a feat not as you gain something at a particular level.Extra Hex
You have learned the secrets of a new hex.
Prerequisite: Hex class feature.
Benefit: You gain one additional hex. You must meet all of the prerequisites for this hex.
Special: You can gain Extra Hex multiple times.A human witch can have as much as 3 hexes at first level. Not that I would spend any of them for cackle. and cackle will not work on slumber.
No, Buri, you first take your class, then you take the feats.
Step 1—Determine Ability Scores: Start by generating your character's ability scores. These six scores determine your character's most basic attributes and are used to decide a wide variety of details and statistics. Some class selections require you to have better than average scores for some of your abilities.
Step 2—Pick Your Race: Next, pick your character's race, noting any modifiers to your ability scores and any other racial traits (see Races). There are seven basic races to choose from, although your GM might have others to add to the list. Each race lists the languages your character automatically knows, as well as a number of bonus languages. A character knows a number of additional bonus languages equal to his or her Intelligence modifier.
Step 3—Pick Your Class: A character's class represents a profession, such as fighter or wizard. If this is a new character, he starts at 1st level in his chosen class. As he gains experience points (XP) for defeating monsters, he goes up in level, granting him new powers and abilities.
Step 4—Pick Skills and Select Feats: Determine the number of skill ranks possessed by your character, based on his class and Intelligence modifier (and any other bonuses, such as the bonus received by humans). Then spend these ranks on skills, but remember that you cannot have more ranks than your level in any one skill (for a starting character, this is usually one). After skills, determine how many feats your character receives, based on his class and level, and select them from those presented in Feats.
Step 5—Buy Equipment: Each new character begins the game with an amount of gold, based on his class, that can be spent on a wide range of equipment and gear, from chainmail armor to leather backpacks. This gear helps your character survive while adventuring. Generally speaking, you cannot use this starting money to buy magic items without the consent of your GM.
Step 6—Finishing Details: Finally, you need to determine all of a character's details, including his starting hit points (hp), Armor Class (AC), saving throws, initiative modifier, and attack values. All of these numbers are determined by the decisions made in previous steps. Aside from these, you need to decide on your character's name, alignment, and physical appearance. It is best to jot down a few personality traits as well, to help you play the character during the game. Additional rules (like age and alignment) are described in Additional Rules.
fist level witch class features:
1st ..... Cantrips, hex, witch's familiar
Tehre: the hex feature is a first level ability, you take your feat after getting it, so you can take extra hex.
It is the same reason why a fighter or barbarian can learn to use a exotic weapon at level 1 (they have a BAB of +1) and a magus or wizard can't (BAB of +0).
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The only thing you can't do out of order is join a prestige class, because you have to choose your class before you spend skill ranks and choose feats.
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What I'm saying is that prior to Slumber Hex the chance of success of the giant was acceptably low, now it isn't.
Convince me that if you can get within close range of a giant, you'd rather use the slumber hex than cast charm person. note that if you have the drop on him, he's not in combat and does not get a +5 bonus to his save.
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Yes some GMs do let everything in the world be.everything but the rules dont support that logically because so many options make no sense if all options are open to everyone. Golarion would fundamentally not exist because it would be overrun with witches and druids (which according to another hot thread ATM, are the best class hands down) or something. Narrative explanations, setting fiat or some other mechanism ensures the setting exist. My point is taking the unique offerings of players and expanding on them creates waves (hence my reference to the Create Water debate) so at that point, sure, quasit witches rule the ashen wastes of reality in service of their Balor patron masters. Cool game, would tottally play that but it exists in the warp of applying rules on a scale beyond their intended purpose, no?I accept this.
However, adventures that we find satisfying follow a sort of pseudo-logic that occupies the grey area we might call "acceptable disbelief". As Paizo changes the rules, that grey area moves around, and I think it's important for module writers to try to track this so that they can write background / set-up scenario material that players and GMs are going to consider reasonably believable.
It's important to me, anyway :-) If I write something with a colossal red dragon in the bottom of a dungeon, then I put something in there about how he gets in and out.
Richard
Oh I agree that the dragon's ability to enter his own home would be an omission of substantial game disruption proportions for me. This sort of realism seems different to me than the question of "why arent all the Viking hamlets is the north optimizing as slumber hex witches".
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I might not build the witch I have in mind yet, but if I do, I am not interested in people telling me I am ruining the fun of others when I put the opposition to sleep. Instead, I will bluntly tell them that if they have a problem with the sleep hex, they should spend their time petitioning campaign management to get it banned. They have already done that before with both the vivisectionist and synthesist.
I sometimes get little chance to do something in a game myself. Somtimes the fighter clogs up the only spot of good action in a bottle neck and others refuse to move out from behind him so I can step in and attack through him at -4 for cover penalties with my reach. Somtimes the barbarian crits for 60 damage (average roll at level three) and cleaves another 60 to end combat turn one. Sometimes the wizard or cleric casts hold person and someone else executes a coup de gras. I suck those experiences up and am thankful nobody died that combat. These are all legal choices until the campaign bans them and no one should be angry at the barbarian or wiz/clr. I would say the person behind the fighter should strike/cast and move out so others can move in and strike, then strike and move out on the second turn. I will not be sympathetic if someone dislikes me useing the sleep hex. At least I will play it correctly instead of cheating like one player who claimed it was.like the spell and hit multiple people at a tiime with minute durations instead of how the hex is supposed to be done.
The only thing you can't do out of order is join a prestige class, because you have to choose your class before you spend skill ranks and choose feats.
This is what I must have confused. My bad!
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The gripping hand is, it wouldn't hurt if they errat'd it not to work on things with HD of more than twice your caster level.
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Convince me that if you can get within close range of a giant, you'd rather use the slumber hex than cast charm person. note that if you have the drop on him, he's not in combat and does not get a +5 bonus to his save.
What I'm saying is that prior to Slumber Hex the chance of success of the giant was acceptably low, now it isn't.
What +5 to the save?
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Convince me that if you can get within close range of a giant, you'd rather use the slumber hex than cast charm person. note that if you have the drop on him, he's not in combat and does not get a +5 bonus to his save.
What I'm saying is that prior to Slumber Hex the chance of success of the giant was acceptably low, now it isn't.
What +5 to the save?
If you try to cast charm person on someone with whom you are in hostilities, they get +5 to save. If you sneak up on them, though, you can just charm them, give them a picnic lunch, and ask them to politely to leave. Or overthrow the oppressive evil mayor who's been ruining the town.
Convince me that if you can get within close range of a giant, you'd rather use the slumber hex than cast charm person. note that if you have the drop on him, he's not in combat and does not get a +5 bonus to his save.
Assuming both have the same DC (for a second level witch, slumber would be 1 higher).
-Charm will make the giant friendly towards the caster for a few hours, but it would require an opposed charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinary do - (like stop raiding the village). The giant will probably go raid the next village. Once the spell wears off, the giant is going to be pissed.>If the giant makes the save, it is going to be pissed.
-Slumber will make the giant a very easy almost automatic coup de grace. You get to take all his stuff, and that giant never bothers anyone ever again.
>If the giant makes the save, it is going to be pissed.
If you are in AoO range, slumber wins hands down.
This reminds me of The Seven Samurai - except instead of the villagers finding proud warriors, they get witches with slumber hex. If I were the villagers I would be much more likely to want seven witches then samurai!
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If you try to cast charm person on someone with whom you are in hostilities, they get +5 to save. If you sneak up on them, though, you can just charm them, give them a picnic lunch, and ask them to politely to leave. Or overthrow the oppressive evil mayor who's been ruining the town.Convince me that if you can get within close range of a giant, you'd rather use the slumber hex than cast charm person. note that if you have the drop on him, he's not in combat and does not get a +5 bonus to his save.
What I'm saying is that prior to Slumber Hex the chance of success of the giant was acceptably low, now it isn't.
What +5 to the save?
Ah, someone had cast Moment of blindness on me and I had totally failed to see the part about charm person. :P
Chances of success are the same. Charm person and then slumber if that fail or if I can't convince the giant to leave my friends alone.
Charm person has the problem that I am the giant friend, not I and my co-villagers. So he could decide to spare my house and my properties while still killing and eating my friends.
There are no guarantees that I will win the oppose charisma check while trying to convince him to leave my friends alone.
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Assuming both have the same DC (for a second level witch, slumber would be 1 higher).
-Charm will make the giant friendly towards the caster for a few hours, but it would require an opposed charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinary do - (like stop raiding the village). The giant will probably go raid the next village. Once the spell wears off, the giant is going to be pissed.
>If the giant makes the save, it is going to be pissed.
Actually, giants don't raid villages, most of the time. On any day, they're probably not raiding a village.
It seems to me that charming giants and making them leave actually creates more a deterrent than slumbering giants and killing them, as there is no one to carry a warning when they are dead. Also, I don't usually want the stuff a giant carries while raiding. What am I going to do with a Large greatclub and some rocks?
Specious argument.Alright, Diego, do you think you can, for once in our history of conversation, avoid insulting me and/or calling me a liar? I'd really appreciate it. Also, you're using the wrong word. It's not "specious" it's merely, "an argument I don't like, and thus will question your integrity." though I don't know if they have a word for that.specious
[spee-shuhs]
adjective
1.
apparently good or right though lacking real merit; superficially pleasing or plausible: specious arguments.It is not offensive, it define exactly your post. You used an argument that seem valid but crumble instantly when analyzed.
Ah, you mean that one definition instead of the others here.
2 having deceptive attraction or allure
3
: having a false look of truth or genuineness : sophistic <specious reasoning>
Both of which are about deception? Good to know. My apologies for taking it according to these two definitions.
So the base of your reasoning is "One side has infinite resources, so it can do anything and everything"?
Nope.
But one side hasn't infinite resources in any setting. The abyss can be infinite, but no side control all of them. Every single individual control a limited (even if very large in some instance) amount of resources and need to use part of those resources to protect himself and his organization from competitors. A demon lord spending a large part of its resources hunting mortal spellcasters will end being killed or removed from power by competitors.
Alright. If one side doesn't have infinite resources at their disposal to fight simulacrum in a world in which Simulacrum exists... why not? Does a Pit Fiend get Wish once per year? Yes? So... why doesn't he have an army of simulacrum of himself, (each of which get Wish once per year, granting a near-infinite number of simulacrum...)
"Because it doesn't work that way." isn't an answer.
If a creature fears its competitors so very much, what does it fear more? It's competitors or the sleep hex? It's competitors, or the possibility of something gaining simulacrum? If the sleep hex is as big a deal as it's being made out to be, it will be dealt with, decisively. It's not, thus it's not.
If the threat is big enough, demon lords, dukes of hell, etc, will put aside their differences to handle it. Otherwise they won't.
Demon Lords have even all gathered together to fight against a common threat: Desna when she killed one of their number, and Curchanus before her under Lamashtu's guidance.
Your post was about a united front of all wish granting creature, lasting forever, not a temporary alliance to take down some specific enemy or a few of those creatures allying with a few other creatures from a different subset. Two very different things.
Huh. That's... fascinating and telling. I never used the word "forever", but you inferred it based on your own prejudice against my argument.
I never said "forever".
One can be compared to the Allied nations from WWII, with URSS, USA Comunist and Nationalist China on the same side (at least formally for the last two), the other to being part of the NATO.
Even during WWII nation on the same side were scheming and spying against each other, and in some case even actively fighting (afore mentioned Communist ans nationalist China). Even within the NATO there has been and there is spying and active sabotage to get economical and political advantage.
The "danger" of simulacrum using spellcaster isn't large enough to keep your united front stable for more than a few minutes.
... in your interpretation. If Simulacrum can unbalance the world - and it can - than the threat is constant and significant. Either the powerful creatures with high wisdom scores recognize that (due to their high wisdom scores) or they don't, in which case there is a deeper problem with "world building" going on than "someone can target a will save with a 5% chance of success for one round".
There is information and spells and abilities in-canon lore of almost every world I know that are actively suppressed by mightier powers.
If one was consistently threatening to them, it would be suppressed.
Simulacron isn't campaign changing for the small village, there is a difference between "campaign changing for PC" and "campaign changing for the world". This discussion is mostly about the latter.
If you really believe that the spell wouldn't change the game world with liberal (and free) use such as certain creatures have, you are heavily applying house rules and/or ignoring world building/logical outcomes in favor of pre-printed stat-blocks. Neither of those are wrong, but we are, as you noted, talking about how one ability alters the world (which includes villages), not the latter.
My (semi-)current Kingmaker game is proof that one man's simulacrum can alter the nature of every village in the Kingdom. Given some time, it could easily be the world.
Military use of children. Children with firearms routinely kill trained combatants.
A really sad reality. Also, interestingly, they are generally equipped like military personnel, given training, and/or sent on suicide attacks. This is not comparable, except the suicide attack type, only with less chance of success, as they're weaker and far less well equipped for survival to get close enough to use it.
If we're talking modern military, it would be wielding a low-grade weak hand gun. If we're talking older military, it would be wielding a knife.
In any event, mostly the above is you nitpicking examples rather than the actual argument on if Slumber is World Changing. I'm dropping that thread of conversation.
(And, to be clear, I actually really appreciate some other things you've been saying in the thread, too. It's not just, "Diego spoke, I must rebut!") :)
I mean, my point can be summed up better by,
Yes some GMs do let everything in the world be.everything but the rules dont support that logically because so many options make no sense if all options are open to everyone. Golarion would fundamentally not exist because it would be overrun with witches and druids (which according to another hot thread ATM, are the best class hands down) or something. Narrative explanations, setting fiat or some other mechanism ensures the setting exist. My point is taking the unique offerings of players and expanding on them creates waves (hence my reference to the Create Water debate) so at that point, sure, quasit witches rule the ashen wastes of reality in service of their Balor patron masters. Cool game, would tottally play that but it exists in the warp of applying rules on a scale beyond their intended purpose, no?
Not because I don't think that creatures shouldn't have class levels, but if we're going to try to start "this creature could have X because it exists in the rules" than we're quickly going to have infinite solars of 10 class levels and 5 mythic tiers filling up the preponderance of reality with a few "original" solars having started the simulacrum project... today.
Why the giant terrorizing a thorp with at most 20 people in it now has moved to attacking a town with 700 people in it? A small town (201-2000 inhabitants) has access to 4th level spells and probably several 7th level NPC with character classes. A single dragon could have problem trying to terrorize it, a single giant has no chance at all.
...
... is your question, "Why is the giant attacking a town?"
The OP's point that I was responding to while talking to you was the giant attacking a town. I've no idea why the Giant has gone after a town, since, from the beginning, it was a random giant, then a "lone farm" (which has no statistics), then "villages" until the OP displayed an actual town as an example of what he's talking about. Given that solitary farms have no stats, thorps have first level spells, hamlets have second level spells, and villages have third level spells, there's no reason to presume a witch in any of those, unless the GM wants one. And if there is a witch, there's no reason to presume it's one with slumber... unless the GM wants there to be one.
And yes, if you read their description, hill giants fear raiding towns.
"They are, as a whole, incredibly selfish creatures and rarely engage in battles they don't automatically know they'll win."
... so we agree that Slumber isn't game changing against a giant of this magnitude, then?
What are we even arguing, then?
In any event, as far as giants go...
Hill giants have an INT of 6 and WIS of 10 and no ranks in knowledge of any kind. We can safely assume they know nothing about witches (they make a DC of 8 - not enough to clear the base DC 10 threshold of anything). That said, it's not foolish. It will avoid trouble if it obviously sees it. It just doesn't know that trouble might come from a witch, because it probably doesn't even know that a witch is.
Frost giants (used in the OP) use more skilled tactics anyway, unless caught unprepared by something, which is generally how solitary encounters happen - they're out in the wilds alone, then run across the adventurers who run across them, in which case they're not seeking out battle with a potential witch (that they may or may not know anything about), but rather with whatever opportunity (or necessity) just happened to present itself.
The Balor example is so exceedingly unlikely as to be ludicrous except in very specific circumstances, in which case it's clearly a story element that the GM is choosing.
This thread has become very silly.
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So I would say that we agree that the solitary raider essentially don't exist, right?
Yeah, none of the giants are ever found alone...
EcologyEnvironment cold mountains
Organization solitary, gang (3–5), band (6–12 plus 35% noncombatants and 1 adept or cleric of 1st–2nd level), raiding party (6–12 plus 35% noncombatants, 1 adept or sorcerer of 3rd–5th level, 1–4 winter wolves, and 2–3 ogres), or tribe (21–30 plus 1 adept, cleric, or sorcerer of 6th–7th level; 1 barbarian or ranger jarl of 7th–9th level; and 15–36 winter wolves, 13–22 ogres, and 1–2 young white dragons)
Treasure standard (chain shirt, greataxe, other treasure)
Yup, never alone.
This thread has become very silly.
It wasn't silly from the beginning?
I think both of you (Diego and Fergie) are correct in this case.
Organization (solitary) does not mean that "raider" is enacted in a solitary fashion.
A lone giant does not mean a lone raider.
Perhaps a giant who badly underestimates the relative power of a town and doesn't know any better. But under the majority of cases that's simply not what they do. And we have a word for humans who do that sort of thing, too: stupid.
Perhaps a giant who badly underestimates the relative power of a town and doesn't know any better. But under the majority of cases that's simply not what they do. And we have a word for humans who do that sort of thing, too: stupid.
At the risk of getting into the ecology of giants debate...
We call humans who go out and kill another species or gather what it produces hunters and gatherers. And when you go off and gather up some monkey meat, take eggs from a nest, or take the puny peons ale, you should bring a buddy for safety. Safety first after all, and better safe then sorry, doncha know.
But that is all loser talk if you are some Large Sized Greataxe Power Attacking Viking Badass! Some are part of the Jarl's Outlaw Motorcycle gang, but some are not, and they have to scrounge the outskirts of the human lands for ale, gold, and slaves. And sometimes, when you just want an entire cow and a barrel of ale, it is just easier to sneak onto the edge of town and just grab it and go without making a big thing of it.
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I see this thread has quickly degenerated into highly improbable scenarios that dont actually occur in real games...cant we talk about actual game experiences here?
They may take our vast featureless planes, but they will never take our slumber hexes!
Blood Money into Simulacrum... Blood Money Sno-Cone Wish Factory set...
Well that one's easy.
1. Simulacrum is a 7th level spell. Blood money or no, you ain't casting that until 13th level. There's all kinds of crazy stuff available by 13th level. Slumber is available from level 1.
2. The combination of spells you are suggesting is just that: a combination. I never said slumber was more powerful than any combination of other things. But slumber does what it does all by itself. You don't even need to start combining it with stuff.
3. A far less important point, but blood money is from an adventure path for god's sake. Far less quality control in a product like that, and many people haven't even heard of it. Debatable whether it's even intended to be available to characters outside of that adventure path. Slumber is from the freaking APG.
Got anything else?
Blood Money into Simulacrum... Blood Money Sno-Cone Wish Factory set...
Not the one I would have picked but...sure why not?
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"If I pick Slumber in isolation and pretend that it only gets used in the most optimal and idealised setting, regardless of how little that setting resembles an actual game play environment, I can show you how unbalanced it is."
Awesome.
A Balor can choke to death on a potato too. Lets ban potatoes.
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"If I pick Slumber in isolation and pretend that it only gets used in the most optimal and idealised setting, regardless of how little that setting resembles an actual game play environment, I can show you how unbalanced it is."
Awesome.
A Balor can choke to death on a potato too. Lets ban potatoes.
But think of the implications! Without potatoes the southern Andoran harvest would be ruined, Cheliax would collapse under export ban and Ustalav would rise as the supreme super power with its abundant supply of alternate starches!
But there's unbalanced and then there's unbalanced. And then there's slumber. I said I wasn't going to do it, but name something else. Anything. I'll tell you why slumber is worse.
Lead Blades.
"If I pick Slumber in isolation and pretend that it only gets used in the most optimal and idealised setting, regardless of how little that setting resembles an actual game play environment, I can show you how unbalanced it is."
Awesome.
A Balor can choke to death on a potato too. Lets ban potatoes.
So you admit that slumber "in isolation" as you put it (or in other words considered strictly based on its own merits) is more powerful than anything else considered in the same way?
I'll settle for that.
Lead Blades.
But there's unbalanced and then there's unbalanced. And then there's slumber. I said I wasn't going to do it, but name something else. Anything. I'll tell you why slumber is worse.
How is lead blades even close?
1. You do a few more points of damage per hit vs. essentially a save or die (let's not get into this argument- it's at least a save or major, major suck).
2. Lead blades available at 4th level earliest vs. slumber available at 1st.
3. Lead blades typically is going to be available far fewer times per day than slumber, and at least takes up spell slots.
Anything else?
EDIT:
Almost forgot 4. Lead blades at least requires a weapon and has verbal and somatic components. Slumber you can do even when you're without weapons, in a silence radius, etc...
Lead Blades.
But there's unbalanced and then there's unbalanced. And then there's slumber. I said I wasn't going to do it, but name something else. Anything. I'll tell you why slumber is worse.How is lead blades even close?
1. You do a few more points of damage per hit vs. essentially a save or die (let's not get into this argument- it's at least a save or major, major suck).
2. Lead blades available at 4th level earliest vs. slumber available at 1st.
3. Lead blades typically is going to be available far fewer times per day than slumber, and at least takes up spell slots.
Anything else?
I was thinking you might chug potions of lead blades and enlarge person, and attack with your falchion.
Ok, so how about protection from evil?
I was thinking you might chug potions of lead blades and enlarge person, and attack with your falchion.Lead Blades.
But there's unbalanced and then there's unbalanced. And then there's slumber. I said I wasn't going to do it, but name something else. Anything. I'll tell you why slumber is worse.How is lead blades even close?
1. You do a few more points of damage per hit vs. essentially a save or die (let's not get into this argument- it's at least a save or major, major suck).
2. Lead blades available at 4th level earliest vs. slumber available at 1st.
3. Lead blades typically is going to be available far fewer times per day than slumber, and at least takes up spell slots.
Anything else?
Well, again that's a combination of things vs. a single thing. Plus then you're burning more gold and actions. Plus all the points I made above still stand, even in that case. But yeah, potions of enlarge are obnoxious too.
Ok, so how about protection from evil?
Protection from evil is whack for sure, but it's at least a defensive ability. You're not ending any fights with protection from evil. And again, at least you're burning some kind of resource (spell slots) to use it. I'd say protection from evil is far more situational as well, on the whole.
Protection from evil is whack for sure, but it's at least a defensive ability. You're not ending any fights with protection from evil. And again, at least you're burning some kind of resource (spell slots) to use it. I'd say protection from evil is far more situational as well, on the whole.
Ok, so how about protection from evil?
But it can totally block 9th level spells, right? So, 1st level spell that is still indispensable to high level parties. But you're right, it's a defense.
What about magic missile?
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For a moment I was going to entertain the notion of fueling the great "Erick Wilson Slumber Hex Showdown" but I'm not sure we even have similar ideas of what the goal posts are for notions of disruption.
I've just been around here for too long. Wizards are too powerful. Synthesist Summoners? Too powerful...Eidolons in general, my god.
Create water destroys worlds. James Jacobs even said they shouldn't have made it a cantrip, SO disruptive it can be to the course of natural events. Hide in Plain SIGHT? Unbalanced. Makes no sense.
Druids? Best class, apparently. Have you seen the DPR Olympics recently? Uhmmm I would find any of that kind of shenanigans more disruptive than a slumber hex personally...
Gunslingers can craft guns at the same speed as magic items. Guns hit touch AC. They ignore most armor types. Combine those with the fact that all Gunslingers can craft out of the box...why isn't Golarion a steampunk firearm wonderland 1-2 years after the arrival of the first batch of gunslingers? According to the boards, broken broken broken.
Why? Because as my family loves to say "its in the script". Why did that truck full of milk EXPLODE? Because the script says so.
Applying logic to fantasy in general can be hard. Its why all the hard sci-fi folks turn their nose up at so much stuff.
Half the nations that exist in any given world {fantasy or otherwise} should be eaten alive if people made every choice optimally, using only the best of all options.
Like I seriously don't get it. A player is a witch. HAs a slumber hex. Goes on a rampage. {RAMPAGE LANA!}
At what point does the evil elf mercenary troupe not get a call from the local Frost Giant, Aboleth, Balor or theives guild? That's not hating on players, that's "a butterfly flaps its wings in Madagascar" type cause and effect.
And like I said earlier in the thread, how many witches are really out there? Causing all this chaos, getting permission from the universe (because witches get all their stuff from their patron right? That is the *source* of their power?) to just sleep everything in sight? And the statistical average says they will fail eventually.
Maybe the PCs are a crackerjack team of Elf Slumber Hex Witches. They will rule the world apparently. Can't be stopped. At that point isnt this a conversation about stupidbadfun and managing player/campaign expectations?
Why isn't Golarion overrun with witches? I dunno, I have lots of theories but as of the last AP the world was still turning...But I think the gunslinger fabrication machine of unified Nex/Alkenstar RAW would give the Kyonin Slumber Witch empire a serious run for its money.
Edit: And it occurs to me, witches are using resources to use Slumber...actions. Its a good use of an action but isn't being outnumbered a relatively common and easy thing to accomplish...does this mean that goblin hordes are the most unbalanced thing because they can kill witches en masse?
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Protection from evil is whack for sure, but it's at least a defensive ability. You're not ending any fights with protection from evil. And again, at least you're burning some kind of resource (spell slots) to use it. I'd say protection from evil is far more situational as well, on the whole.
Ok, so how about protection from evil?
But it can totally block 9th level spells, right? So, 1st level spell that is still indispensable to high level parties. But you're right, it's a defense.
What about magic missile?
PfE work only if the caster is evil.