Is the Slumber hex uniquely game changing?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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This post is "world implications" only - not mechanical balance, which I don't feel qualified to judge.

Atarlost wrote:

@richard develyn:

If slumber changes the game it's an entirely beneficial change. You're only thinking of the giants, not the villagers. You can't have both giants and villagers unless the giants either have no desire to raid the villagers or the giants' desire to raid the villagers is outweighed by their fear of the villagers.

If you want a sensible setting with human or demihuman civilizations you must place humans and demihumans at the top of the food chain. Prey species cannot settle until they first exterminate their predators or teach them fear.

...or unless they find a stable equilibrium. Ant colonies are not exterminated by anteaters.

Also, most predators in the real world don't just attack things blindly. Predators prefer to go after known and recognized prey. A predator has to make LOTS of successful kills in its lifetime; if each one brings even a few percent chance of getting killed, then the predator is unlikely to survive to reproduce.

You don't need slumber hex witches to make most predators wary of attacking villages in the sense proposed here -- where the villagers are aware of its approach and can organize to meet it. Predators won't do that ANYWAY, unless they are utterly overwhelming on the level of anteater vs ant colony (something like an adult red dragon vs a village).

Real world man-eating predators go after people when they are alone and vulnerable. They can terrorize villages, there are cases of individual lions and leopards eating dozens or hundreds of people, but they kill one person at a time, at night, without alerting others. They don't charge into the town square and attack crowds. Crocodiles take individual swimmers or individual people gathering water from the river. They do not charge out of the river and invade towns.

And many raiding monsters (especially humanoid type ones -- orcs, ogres, giants) may not base their diet on humans -- getting much more of their actual calorie allotment from stealing crops, livestock etc. from the humans. So the relationship is more like a conqueror exacting tribute than a predator and prey. These would probably set up more like a tribe, or like a gang extorting protection money -- IE they would not be attacking a village alone.

Also, on the Slumber Hex bit specifically - a village has to consider the consequences of trying it and failing. If they have a 50% chance of failing... then that's a 50% chance of likely many or most of their strongest workers (probably the people wielding weapons) dying, quite possibly leaving the village to starve. Much safer to offer a few livestock and hope it keeps the giant satisfied for a while...

TL;DR: Slumber hex is not very world-changing because the precautions predators/raiders would need to take to avoid/survive it, are ones they would "realistically" be taking anyway.

Dark Archive

wraithstrike wrote:
... subjective stuff ...

Totally agree. Like I said before, though, I write stuff which I publish, so I need to know what people in general feel is acceptably realistic.

wraithstrike wrote:
As soon as the witch is deemed a threat then they will focus fire and kill her.

Actually, I realised fairly recently that they would never know who it was. At least, as far as I can tell, using an SU is imperceptible.

Richard

Dark Archive

KtA wrote:
This post is "world implications" only - not mechanical balance, which I don't feel qualified to judge ...

The point about whether it is better to appease or confront an aggressor was made before, and then I think somebody drew a parallel with The Magnificent Seven!

I accept that if you conclude it is better to appease an aggressor then Slumber Hex is not a good option.

If you are forced to defend yourself, then I still think it is.

Assuming, of course, that you are ever going to need to. At the moment the consensus seems to be that single intelligent marauders would never have attacked a settlement prior to the discovery of the Slumber Hex weapon.

If I'm following your argument, however, would it make sense for an intelligent marauder to attack with stealth at night rather than with terror during the day?

Would the development of the Slumber Hex weapon make a change to such a tactic? Maybe not from a 1st level Witch, but what about a 2nd level one who catches sight of you from her bedroom window?

And is that situation common enough for you to worry about ? - though taking your point that even a small chance of failure is unacceptable to a predator.

Richard


Shifty wrote:
Erick Wilson wrote:
I am saying that slumber is so awesome that it is a decent option even for this relatively crappy character who has...

It is a decent option, however your assertion was that it was awesomesauce and needs a nerf. This just isn't bearing out.

It is 100% bearing out. I threw down the gauntlet and asked anyone to present anything that I could not show slumber to be stronger than. No one has succeeded. I don't know what else I can possibly do. And I didn't backpedal at all. That character was brought up in response to Diego after I made my full disclosure about having a character with slumber. She was never intended to support my argument in any way. You kept trying to turn it into that because you know you have to twist what I'm saying in order for it to seem like you have any kind of point whatever. So, back to sensible talk. Gauntlet re-thrown. Your move.

Liberty's Edge

Diego Rossi wrote:


Casting Time 1 round

PRD - Magic chapter wrote:
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.

The Slumber Hex duiplicates the effect of the sleep spell. Not the casting time. It still takes a standard action to use a hex. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes


Erick Wilson wrote:


It is 100% bearing out. I threw down the gauntlet and asked anyone to present anything that I could not show slumber to be stronger than. No one has succeeded. I don't know what else I can possibly do. And I didn't backpedal at all. That character was brought up in response to Diego after I made my full disclosure about having a character with slumber. She was never intended to support my argument in any way. You kept trying to turn it into that because you know you have to twist what I'm saying in order for it to seem like you have any kind of point whatever. So, back to sensible talk. Gauntlet re-thrown. Your move.

No move required.

Your argument was that your character could run around 50/50 one shotting CR8 etc encounters and generally bigging up how lethal it all was, then you got given a prime example of 'but what about in actual encounters', which upon seeing that your Slumber tactic would be scuppeered in regular play you disclosed that:

Your character was always playing up, exploiting the system for far greater WBL to increase your effectiveness and being carried by a full group, that you rely on said full group to keep you safe so you can try get off your Slumber, and that the GM is never subsequently targeting the casters hence giving you impunity.

I also find your stats curiously good, you seem to hage a fantastic AC as well as a maxed out Int with 16,000 of your WBL going to that alone, so would love to see what other items you have. Seems your 'throwaway' character might be less an argument against theSlumber Hex, and just more evidence of why OOT gold was a good idea to cap down some of the excess of players who game the system.

You don't actually have a gauntlet to throw in this case.


RJGrady wrote:
It's rare that a selectable ability is a solid, scaling, career-length good choice, but that's all it is, and there are plenty of other things that are just as good.

Name one. I will show you why it's not.


Shifty wrote:


You don't actually have a gauntlet to throw in this case.

It's thrown. It's at your feet. It's been slapped across your face and you're retreating like a punk.

Give. Me. One. Thing. That. Is. Better. Than. Slumber.

If you can't, you've got nothing.


Erick Wilson wrote:
Shifty wrote:


You don't actually have a gauntlet to throw in this case.

It's thrown. It's at your feet. It's been slapped across your face and you're retreating like a punk.

Give. Me. One. Thing. That. Is. Better. Than. Slumber.

If you can't, you've got nothing.

With a heavy dose of humor and good will, I just want to add:

OOOoowwwwwwwww! Oh no he didn't!


Shifty wrote:


I also find your stats curiously good, you seem to hage a fantastic AC as well as a maxed out Int with 16,000 of your WBL going to that alone, so would love to see what other items you have. Seems your 'throwaway' character might be less an argument against theSlumber Hex, and just more evidence of why OOT gold was a good idea to cap down some of the excess of players who game the system.

It's not hard. You're just out of your league in this conversation. I've been at this a long time. And by the way, I don't play up to get ubergold. I play up to get some modicum of challenge out of the frequently too easy PFS mods. I have publicly argued on these threads many time for them to reduce the gp output and increase difficulty. Look it up for yourself if you don't believe me. It's on record.

EDIT: Incidentally, the listed stats were at 8th level. The +4 headband is acquired at 7th. Even at normal CWBL you have 24,000 gp. You easily have more than that in PFS. So 16,000 is well worth it when you are a skill monkey character who also has several class abilities that play off Int (inspiration, slumber) as well as your attack and damage being based off it (due to prehensile hair).

Shadow Lodge

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Erick Wilson wrote:
Give. Me. One. Thing. That. Is. Better. Than. Slumber.

Druids.


Erick Wilson wrote:
Shifty wrote:


You don't actually have a gauntlet to throw in this case.

It's thrown. It's at your feet. It's been slapped across your face and you're retreating like a punk.

Give. Me. One. Thing. That. Is. Better. Than. Slumber.

If you can't, you've got nothing.

Actually all you did was put the goal posts on your back and run around the field daring us to hit them while you keep changing position constantly.

You can try and assert you are winning all you like, but frankly you chop and change your whole story at whim so frequently and then try claim a moral victory its actually somewhat entertaining.

Your position has bent and flexed so much its comic, and frankly I would love a good look at how you have built this character, as it all seems pretty 'amazing'.

basically I can sum up your starting position as 'I am Slumber, hear me roar - I can take out an equal CR creature easy' to 'As long as I have a while pile of buddies around, I might not get killed as long as the GM just focuses on them whilst I do my thing with my dubious character'.

If that's 'winning' in your book then I assume your book is a comedy.

I don't have to give you something better than Slumber, I just have to debunk your claim, and that was easily done. You misrepresented something and I exposed you. Job done.


ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Erick Wilson wrote:
Give. Me. One. Thing. That. Is. Better. Than. Slumber.
Druids.

That's a whole class. Yes, every class ability possessed by druids all added together is better than slumber. I'm asking for one feat/spell/class feature etc that is better.


Shifty wrote:

I don't have to give you something better than Slumber, I just have to debunk your claim, and that was easily done. You misrepresented something and I exposed you. Job done.

What have you debunked? My claim is that slumber is better than any other single thing in the game. That's the only claim I have made. You have in no way debunked it. Try again. Your move.


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Erick Wilson wrote:
ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Erick Wilson wrote:
Give. Me. One. Thing. That. Is. Better. Than. Slumber.
Druids.
That's a whole class. Yes, every class ability possessed by druids all added together is better than slumber. I'm asking for one feat/spell/class feature etc that is better.

Bombs...

Wild Shape...

Smite Evil...

Smite Good (in an Evil Campaign)...

Animate Dead (again, best in an evil game)...

Wish..

Miracle...

Simulacrum...

Blood Money...

Evil Eye hex...

Leadership Feat...

Eidolon Class Feature...

Synthesist Eidolon...

Vanish Trick...

Need I go on?

Shadow Lodge

Erick Wilson wrote:
That's a whole class. Yes, every class ability possessed by druids all added together is better than slumber. I'm asking for one feat/spell/class feature etc that is better.

Sorry, it seems you misunderstood my post. It was a joke. Of course a class is better than a single feature. And honestly I'd rather a witch in the party than a druid.


K177Y C47 wrote:
Erick Wilson wrote:
ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Erick Wilson wrote:
Give. Me. One. Thing. That. Is. Better. Than. Slumber.
Druids.
That's a whole class. Yes, every class ability possessed by druids all added together is better than slumber. I'm asking for one feat/spell/class feature etc that is better.

Bombs...

Wild Shape...

Smite Evil...

Smite Good (in an Evil Campaign)...

Animate Dead (again, best in an evil game)...

Wish..

Miracle...

Simulacrum...

Blood Money...

Evil Eye hex...

Leadership Feat...

Eidolon Class Feature...

Synthesist Eidolon...

Vanish Trick...

Need I go on?

Can we do one at a time please? But before we do, let me say that it's senseless to mention something like wish. Of course wish is more powerful. It's a 9th level spell. Go back to my original post on this thread. I said nothing compares to the power of slumber relative to the ease of acquiring and using it. Do you not understand that a spell of a given level becomes more powerful if you in no way alter its stats, but reduce its spell level? I granted that magic missile might possibly compare in terms of overall power vs. ease, but as I said, magic missile has been explicitly stated by the designers to be heavily overpowered.


ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Erick Wilson wrote:
That's a whole class. Yes, every class ability possessed by druids all added together is better than slumber. I'm asking for one feat/spell/class feature etc that is better.
Sorry, it seems you misunderstood my post. It was a joke. Of course a class is better than a single feature. And honestly I'd rather a witch in the party than a druid.

Cool. Sometimes it's hard to tell. Some of the people on here are making arguments like that with a straight face.


Actually, I'll help you. Haste might possibly be comparable to slumber in brokenness. That spell might be overpowered at 4th level. As a 3rd level spell (available to summoners as a 2nd level spell), it's completely insane.

EDIT: And yet I don't mind haste nearly as much, because at least it's not ending boss fights in a round, added to which it's a buff, which means by definition it's helping other people do stuff rather than hogging the glory. Still, I'm getting sick of being constantly hasted in every encounter ever.

Shadow Lodge

Erick Wilson wrote:
Actually, I'll help you. Haste might possibly be comparable to slumber in brokenness. That spell might be overpowered at 4th level. As a 3rd level spell (available to summoners as a 2nd level spell), it's completely insane.

Something interesting, there is a 4th level version of haste. Its made for clerics, and I honestly think it is more powerful than haste because it works in all-caster parties. Blessing of Fervor. Some say haste is better due to getting all the effects, but I think that you only really need one of them. So, how does that compare to slumber?


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Erick Wilson wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Erick Wilson wrote:
ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Erick Wilson wrote:
Give. Me. One. Thing. That. Is. Better. Than. Slumber.
Druids.
That's a whole class. Yes, every class ability possessed by druids all added together is better than slumber. I'm asking for one feat/spell/class feature etc that is better.

Bombs...

Wild Shape...

Smite Evil...

Smite Good (in an Evil Campaign)...

Animate Dead (again, best in an evil game)...

Wish..

Miracle...

Simulacrum...

Blood Money...

Evil Eye hex...

Leadership Feat...

Eidolon Class Feature...

Synthesist Eidolon...

Vanish Trick...

Need I go on?

Can we do one at a time please? But before we do, let me say that it's senseless to mention something like wish. Of course wish is more powerful. It's a 9th level spell. Go back to my original post on this thread. I said nothing compares to the power of slumber relative to the ease of acquiring and using it. Do you not understand that a spell of a given level becomes more powerful if you in no way alter its stats, but reduce its spell level? I granted that magic missile might possibly compare in terms of overall power vs. ease, but as I said, magic missile has been explicitly stated by the designers to be heavily overpowered.

Well lets see, as I recall you specifically said:

That's a whole class. Yes, every class ability possessed by druids all added together is better than slumber. I'm asking for one feat/spell/class feature etc that is better.

So in otherwords, ANY SPELL. Wish is a perfectly legitimate argument. Here you go moving the field goal again...

Wish is very easy to get... Just make level 17. Guess what? Wizards get 2 free spells of their choice. Or if you prefer how about limited wish? Not that hard to get either.

The problem YOU are having is that you are trying to comparing a CLASS ABILITY with a single spell. The thing is, class abilities scale with level because THEY ARE A FEATURE OF THE CLASS where as a spell is one tiny part of a class feature (Spellcasting). It is very rare for a single spell to scale with level very accurately because you are meant to move on to the next few spell levels when you get higher in level or use meta-magic to squeeze more juice out of them. Class abilities are meant to scale.

But please tell me this, oh master of all things! How come an ability that generally has the same DC as the BASE DC of your highest spell level is considered "Overpowered" and "game breaking" when at the same time, a blaster wizard or a Save-or-Suck wizard is often pumping up his DCs by as much as +8 above the Base DC because the DC is often considered "too low" to be reliable. Not only that, Slumber is targetting a Save that is generally considered a common strong save (with reflex being the save that is generally a poor save), where as a Blaster Wizard nearlly universally hits reflex...


ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Erick Wilson wrote:
Actually, I'll help you. Haste might possibly be comparable to slumber in brokenness. That spell might be overpowered at 4th level. As a 3rd level spell (available to summoners as a 2nd level spell), it's completely insane.
Something interesting, there is a 4th level version of haste. Its made for clerics, and I honestly think it is more powerful than haste because it works in all-caster parties. Blessing of Fervor. Some say haste is better due to getting all the effects, but I think that you only really need one of them. So, how does that compare to slumber?

Blessing of Fervor is super strong, no question. But at 4th level it feels a lot more appropriately placed than haste at 3rd. I don't know, it's worth thinking about. It does seem to be a no-brainer sort of choice if you're a divine caster with 4th level spells, which is always a bad sign in terms of balance.


If you are talking spells that are "so good" that everyone ALWAYS prepares them, that would make Detect Magic one of the top spells. I mean, what spell caster DOES NOT run around with Detect Magic not prepared?


K177Y C47 wrote:


So in otherwords, ANY SPELL. Wish is a perfectly legitimate argument. Here you go moving the field goal again...

No, I am not moving the goal. You are failing to understand the argument. I explained why wish is not more powerful than slumber. Re-read my comments above. Wish uses up a ninth level spell slot, for god's sake, not to mention its other components. You are investing heavily in using it. Of course it's more powerful. You invest nothing to use slumber, and it's available at 1st level. Is this really that obtuse?


"Not only that, Slumber is targetting a Save that is generally considered a common strong save (with reflex being the save that is generally a poor save), where as a Blaster Wizard nearlly universally hits reflex..."

Um, Will is "generally considered" the best save to target. A lot of big nasty things have low Will saves, and it usually provokes a save or die (as is the case here) rather than just damage. Why do you think Touch of Serenity is apparently so much worse than Stunning Fist? It's balanced because it targets Will. Well, and I suppose it possibly affects more creature types, but that's because it's targeting Will.


Okay, gotta run. It's been fun.


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Erick Wilson wrote:

"Not only that, Slumber is targetting a Save that is generally considered a common strong save (with reflex being the save that is generally a poor save), where as a Blaster Wizard nearlly universally hits reflex..."

Um, Will is "generally considered" the best save to target. A lot of big nasty things have low Will saves, and it usually provokes a save or die (as is the case here) rather than just damage. Why do you think Touch of Serenity is apparently so much worse than Stunning Fist? It's balanced because it targets Will.

Touch fo Serenity is considered better than Stunning fist because it targets will OVER FORT (which is almost universally a high save due to the relationship of fort with size).

The best save to target is reflex because most ceatures tend to have poor reflex, this is in part due to the fact that as things get bigger, their reflex gets lower. For instance:

Ancient Red Dragon
Fort: 22
Will: 21
Reflex: 13

Balor
Fort: 29
Will: 25
Reflex: 17

Rakshasa, Maharaja (the weird exception)
Fort: 16
Will: 18
Refelx: 21

Star-spawn of Cthulhu:
Fort: 18
Will: 25
Reflex: 9

Qlippoth, Iathavos
Fort: 28
Will: 28
Reflex: 15

Nightwave:
Fort: 18
Will: 25 (partially negligible anyway since alot of Will saves are vs Min affecting or death effects which it is immune to)
Reflex: 16

Pit Fiend:
Fort: 24
Will: 18
Reflex: 21

These are the common "big baddies" that are not just templates (I.e. Vampires and Lichs, which depend on what their base class used to be). A good majority (i.e. other than the Rakshasa and the Pit Fiend) have good Will.

The only reason why reflex is not often targetted is because the things that hit reflex are blaster mages, but that does not necessarily need to be the case (i.e. a WoP caster who manipulates a S.o.S. spell to his reflex by piggybacking the ability on a blast spell).


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richard develyn wrote:
KtA wrote:
This post is "world implications" only - not mechanical balance, which I don't feel qualified to judge ...

The point about whether it is better to appease or confront an aggressor was made before, and then I think somebody drew a parallel with The Magnificent Seven!

I accept that if you conclude it is better to appease an aggressor then Slumber Hex is not a good option.

If you are forced to defend yourself, then I still think it is.

Probably TL;DR:

Well, two points:

1) It's not just that attacking the monster invites reprisal but that this particular tactic requires getting close in.

Even a sling has range increment 50 ft. Shortbows are 60 ft., longbow is 100 ft.

For many situations investing in having the village men doing archery practice (as was required for freemen in England at one point, IIRC) may be better than investing in witches with slumber hex.

Giants specifically, maybe not so much so since they can throw rocks at great range. But many less intelligent monsters have no ranged combat ability.

2) Much less certainly, there's also the possibility that defeating a "brute force raider" like a hobgoblin war party, orc band, ogre clan, etc. by martial force might inspire less reprisals from the OTHER hobgoblins, orcs, ogres etc. than doing so by "tricks" or "cowardly" magic. Similarly to the way poison might be seen in a martial culture on Earth -- frighteningly effective, yes, but retaliated against for that very reason.

Although I admit that involves a lot of assumptions.

Anyway -- the following assuming an "overt" or "frontal" attack where the village sees the creature coming:

It's certainly a viable option, even a very useful one. But it's only situationally better than other options.

Against raiding orcs, or goblins, hobgoblins, or other 1HD monsters, a sleep spell can take out up to 4 orcs (yes, the witch can keep casting slumber hex every round at a different orc, but action economy matters too). Color spray can also affect multiple creatures.

Going up to 2nd level spells, I'd consider summoning a couple of celestial eagles with summon monster II. Summon swarm will be pretty devastating since such monsters aren't likely to have anything useful against swarms.

Against a dire animal or dinosaur (or a big normal predator like a tiger) a druid might be as good an option as the slumber hex witch. Against a wolf pack, a calm animals spell from the druid may be better,
because it can affect multiple targets.

Against skeletons or zombies or ghouls, which are immune to sleep, a cleric or paladin is better than a slumber hex witch. (Especially a cleric with the Turn Undead feat or a paladin with the undead scourge archetype.) Even a village militia would be a better option. How common undead are probably depends on where you are -- in Ustalav, pretty common, maybe not so much elsewhere.

Dragons, constructs, oozes and plants are immune to sleep just like undead, but these are likely pretty rare threats and the village is probably hosed no matter what against a major golem or adult dragon.

So... in some situations (one or a few monsters with high HP and low Will saves) a slumber hex witch will be better.

In other situations, a sorcerer with sleep and color spray... or a Heavens mystery oracle with color spray... or a druid... or a cleric... would be better.

So, no, I don't think Slumber Hex massively changes the village vs monsters situation as a whole.

Quote:


Assuming, of course, that you are ever going to need to. At the moment the consensus seems to be that single intelligent marauders would never have attacked a settlement prior to the discovery of the Slumber Hex weapon.

Not never, just only if their advantage is overpowering (like the anteater vs ant colony example).

If you're a huge powerful dragon with all saves high and breath weapon and awesome mobility and spellcasting, you can.

But dragons are immune to sleep anyway. So maybe a flying demon like a vrock or balor would be a better example.

Quote:


If I'm following your argument, however, would it make sense for an intelligent marauder to attack with stealth at night rather than with terror during the day?

Yes.

Quote:


Would the development of the Slumber Hex weapon make a change to such a tactic? Maybe not from a 1st level Witch, but what about a 2nd level one who catches sight of you from her bedroom window?

And is that situation common enough for you to worry about ? -

Well, no. A good stealth predator shouldn't be seen by anybody except the victim, most attacks, as I understand it. I think people in the villages that had lion and leopard problems just disappeared, mostly.

So the chance that the one person that manages to spot it on occasion -- or that it selected as prey -- is the witch with slumber hex is not high*

It might well be useful for people hunting the predator down, but that still doesn't really change the "terrorizes the village till a party gets together and hunts it down" situation.

Quote:
though taking your point that even a small chance of failure is unacceptable to a predator.

No, not quite. Most predator attacks in the wild fail harmlessly. It's a small chance of death (or injury to the point it can't feed itself, for solitary predators) that adds up quickly over the hundreds of attacks that predator makes over its lifetime.

On the other hand, it does have to take risks eventually, or it starves. But avoidable risks... not so much.


EDIT: And, somehow, my first double post on this forum is a giant wall of text. Ouch.

Instead, I'll use this space to point out that despite what I said about how real predators act, I have no objection to the trope of hyperaggressive predators in games and fiction (I think the TVTropes trope is "Super Persistent Predator"). It's cool, and I enjoy things like the chase scene in Avatar with the thanator (the huge cat/weasel thing) chasing Jake and tearing through trees and so on... or movie monsters stomping through cities soaking up gunfire... etc.


Erick Wilson wrote:
Okay, gotta run. It's been fun.

Been running the whole time, with the goalposts on your back.

Your argument is now a 'running joke' - boom tish.


Erick Wilson wrote:
Shifty wrote:


You don't actually have a gauntlet to throw in this case.

It's thrown. It's at your feet. It's been slapped across your face and you're retreating like a punk.

Give. Me. One. Thing. That. Is. Better. Than. Slumber.

If you can't, you've got nothing.

Since you aren't going to accept the challenge Shifty, I will.

There is one thing even better then slumber.
It is a spell.
It is subject to SR.
It provokes an AoO.
It has V,S components.
It doesn't scale with level (although there is a more powerful version at 9th spell level...).
It is only available to 9th level and above arcane casters.
It takes a fifth level spell.
It is limited to humanoids.
It is mind affecting compulsion enchantment, that can be suppressed with protection from evil.
But despite all that, it is still one of the most powerful spells in the game- Dominate Person.

But since it is a spell on the witches spell list (as are all the other powerful enchantment spells), it really serves more to show that slumber hex doesn't need to be that great, because the witch has the best stuff already. Almost all the spells that people have brought up as having better attributes then slumber are on the witches list. It just takes the minimal investment of memorizing a spell, in addition to all your hexes.

So yes, you can have the best thing- dominate, and the second best thing - slumber hex. Since you have the two most powerful things in the game, that makes slumber balanced... I guess that is the best argument against slumber...


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Fergie wrote:
Slumber hex can allow witches to take on a wide variety of encounters above what should even be possible, with a better chance of success then any other single ability or spell. It takes no resources, no special build, and works in most circumstances. If the hex is not useful in the encounter, the witch is still one of the most powerful classes in the game, with a wide variety of other powerful options. If you want to powergame the hell out of it, it isn't hard to do.

I would not call needing to be within 30' of the target with your fighting partner needing to be within 5' to be most circumstances (in most cases, the giant will simply keep moving, keeping the chances of getting the ideal scenario unlikely). Nor would I consider a standard action in combats that usually last only 2-3 rounds no resources. Nor would I consider the need to have the DC high enough to routinely land the hex to be no special build. As for the powergaming, and lots of other options, we're talking NPCs here, not PCs. They are at most 2nd level, so have 1 hex (maybe two if human or with the extra hex feat), with a good sized list of useful hexes to choose from, a handful of cantrips, and one or two 1st level spells. Not to mention NPC equipment. They are far from weak, but they aren't going to have so many additional options over a cleric or druid or oracle or sorcerer or even the ability of rangers to use certain wands at that level (or even adept when it comes down to it, which as the advantage of less training required), the other most likely spellcasting classes, that they are going to be the go to caster for every single thorpe and village in the entire world.

A lone giant wandering through an area that also happens to be a hamlet or thorpe wouldn't worry that much about the threat of a witch unless it was well established that that particular locale had a witch/warrior combo capable of doing that particular combo routinely and effectively. An actual village is large enough that the militia, walls, and other defenses would by itself be enough of a threat to keep the giant from randomly strolling down Main Street, though even the threat of a witch still wouldn't stop him from grabbing a cow from one of the nearby fields as he passed by.

I think a large part of the problem is your definition of "village" and "raid." A sustained attack on a small cluster of maybe 4 houses with the intent to plunder is not "raiding" a "village." It's plundering a hamlet, which usually requires intent and something worth plundering; the tactic works great in that situation, but so does building the small number of buildings in such a way that no giant is going to go strolling through them, and it's still reliant on both the witch and the warrior being at least somewhat forewarned, something difficult to do with the manpower available to a hamlet or thorpe. A "raid" on a "village" (at least a village in D&D terms) is grabbing a cow from a field as they pass near the village proper (which with 100 some people, would be a fairly substantial and notable feature of the immediate area, especially with fences, which to giants are functionally linear caltrops), probably not even bothering to stop, and just grabbing the cow midstride, something that having a witch with the slumber hex isn't going to help against unless you have a crack watch that can pinpoint the giant's presence and path soon enough for the duo to be in the necessary position and both a witch and a warrior (or at least a well armed commoner) that isn't doing anything else important so that they can get to that spot immediately (as in probably 2-3 rounds of the giant's initial appearance, counting moving getting any needed weapons, dealing with any doors or stairs in whatever building they are currently in to get outside, getting around whatever other buildings/fences/etc that may be in between them and the ideal spot), and then hoping to win initiative against the giant. It provides a bit more protection against plundering, as that requires the giant to move in a more predictable and slower manner, but any village that has something worth plundering is also going to have a militia and other defenses that render the slumber hex useful, but mostly icing on the cake, as it still relies on the other defenses to pull off, either by insuring that multiple people are available with weapons, making the positioning game easier and/or by slowing the giant down enough to make the positioning game possible in the first place.

At no point is the hex by itself all that useful; it requires timing and coordination, which for a random raid by a random lone creature is very unlikely in any place that wouldn't have other readily available options.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Nicos wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


The bear that prey on the sheep? Will ST +2, a witch in the bunting party will be very welcome (at least as much as a druid).

A sleep spell has better range and duration, and is therefore better in almost every way that matters.
Sleep spell is 1 round to cast, besides bears are inmune to the spell.

I don't care about 1 round, it has four times the range. Good point about the bear, though; somehow I forgot bears had stupid high HD. Okay, so I'll stick with grease, instead. One elven sorcerer with grease and a longbow has a better shot against a bear than does a 1st level witch trying to deploy slumber hex.


Fergie wrote:


Since you aren't going to accept the challenge Shifty, I will.

Why would I accept a challenge of that dude when he can't even play a straight bat on the first issue? His challenge was an attempt to change the subject and move goal posts, but aside from that Kittycat already obliged the fellow and threw him a list, nice of you too to oblige the guy, but I'm going to pass on his chicanery.

The Exchange

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1. I should in no way be surprised that this thread lives on. Not sure if I should be impressed or sad.

2. Omg Richard develyn is totally just using us fo write a setting or scenario or something. ; p

3. All this talk of witches, frost giants and" what patrons gives what witches what hexes"™ has inspired me. Im going run a game on the pbp with just this thread in mind. May take me a day or two but its coming.


Fergie wrote:

Since you aren't going to accept the challenge Shifty, I will.

There is one thing even better then slumber.
It is a spell.
It is subject to SR.
It provokes an AoO.
It has V,S components.
It doesn't scale with level (although there is a more powerful version at 9th spell level...).
It is only available to 9th level and above arcane casters.
It takes a fifth level spell.
It is limited to humanoids.
It is mind affecting compulsion enchantment, that can be suppressed with protection from evil.
But despite all that, it is still one of the most powerful spells in the game- Dominate Person.

Ok, I will actually give you that one. Well, I won't say it's better, but it's equally ridiculous. But, again, other things being ridiculous does not make slumber ok. And dominate person is at least ridiculous in the same way that other ridiculous things are ridiculous. Slumber is its own special category, being, as it is, available on level one for basically no resource expenditure, either to purchase or use it.

As for everybody giving all of these hypothetical scenarios in combat where you wouldn't want to use slumber, or where slumber might go wrong, etc etc yada yada yada... All such arguments are irrelevant. You can go on that way ad nauseam about anything. The only way to prove balance is through side by side comparisons with other game elements that we can agree are themselves either balanced or unbalanced. Until you do that, you are wasting breath with everything else.

EDIT: Take note, Shifty. Fergie knows how to play the game.


Shifty wrote:
Fergie wrote:


Since you aren't going to accept the challenge Shifty, I will.

Why would I accept a challenge of that dude when he can't even play a straight bat on the first issue? His challenge was an attempt to change the subject and move goal posts, but aside from that Kittycat already obliged the fellow and threw him a list, nice of you too to oblige the guy, but I'm going to pass on his chicanery.

Dude, he called you on your loss of face. Don't lose more face by failing to admit it. Just let it be now.


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Erick Wilson wrote:
Fergie wrote:

Since you aren't going to accept the challenge Shifty, I will.

There is one thing even better then slumber.
It is a spell.
It is subject to SR.
It provokes an AoO.
It has V,S components.
It doesn't scale with level (although there is a more powerful version at 9th spell level...).
It is only available to 9th level and above arcane casters.
It takes a fifth level spell.
It is limited to humanoids.
It is mind affecting compulsion enchantment, that can be suppressed with protection from evil.
But despite all that, it is still one of the most powerful spells in the game- Dominate Person.

Ok, I will actually give you that one. Well, I won't say it's better, but it's equally ridiculous. But, again, other things being ridiculous does not make slumber ok. And dominate person is at least ridiculous in the same way that other ridiculous things are ridiculous. Slumber is its own special category, being, as it is, available on level one for basically no resource expenditure, either to purchase or use it.

As for everybody giving all of these hypothetical scenarios in combat where you wouldn't want to use slumber, or where slumber might go wrong, etc etc yada yada yada... All such arguments are irrelevant. You can go on that way ad nauseam about anything. The only way to prove balance is through side by side comparisons with other game elements that we can agree are themselves either balanced or unbalanced. Until you do that, you are wasting breath with everything else.

The people giving hypothetical situations are the supports of the notion that Slumber is op... Or have you forgotten the original "Frost Giant HAPPENS to lose in initiative, HAPPENS fail it's will save, HAPPENS to decide to charge the witch instead of using, oh idk Rock throw?, HAPPENS to fall asleep 5 ft from a fighter...

That is a VERY hypothetical situation... In real game situations, the Heavens Oracle's Color Spray is infinetely more powerful than the slumber hex in most games...


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm still stuck on why Robin the Boy Fighter and his scythe aren't dead or sundered.


K177Y C47 wrote:


The people giving hypothetical situations are the supports of the notion that Slumber is op... Or have you forgotten the original "Frost Giant HAPPENS to lose in initiative, HAPPENS fail it's will save, HAPPENS to decide to charge the witch instead of using, oh idk Rock throw?, HAPPENS to fall asleep 5 ft from a fighter...

That is a VERY hypothetical situation... In real game situations, the Heavens Oracle's Color Spray is infinetely more...

Sure, those examples don't seem terribly persuasive to me for their side either. But I was thinking more of some of shifty's and sunshadow's arguments. But sure, that's equally true on both sides of the argument. That's why I haven't really been engaging the original premise with the frost giant, etc. It can only lead to pointless digression, as we have seen. Heck, as it turns out I can't even mention one of my characters that has slumber in passing without shifty trying to act like she was somehow the lynchpin of my argument the entire time.

It's what people do who really have no point. They draw you into inane arguments over minutiae. That's why I say let's stick to the science, such as it is. Side by side comparisons or nothing.


Stuff wrote:


Stuff

Just to be clear, this is just stupid rules tweezing on the internet, and I don't think pride or macho-head-games, or whatever should be wrapped up in this.

I took a few lumps! But twas all in good fun!


Fergie wrote:


Just to be clear, this is just stupid rules tweezing on the internet, and I don't think pride or macho-head-games, or whatever should be wrapped up in this.

I took a few lumps! But twas all in good fun!

You're a better man than me ;)


Erick Wilson wrote:
Dude, he called you on your loss of face. Don't lose more face by failing to admit it. Just let it be now.

Those goal posts you keep running around with eventually got kicked through to the point of ridiculousness, so you declared we were no longer playing that but are instead now playing chess.

Kittykat smacked your new game into next week, so all you were left with was playing with Fergie, and Fergie beat you so clearly that you had to cede the new game as well.

Whats your third game going to be?


In fact, Shifty, fergie has appropriately shamed me with his call for level headed debate. Let's you and me bury the hatchet. I apologize for any of my comments that took this to a personal place with you.


/shakes hands.

Departs field.

Have a good one :)


I will admit, Slumber is a powerful ability. It is part of the 5 point combo that pretty much wins (Evil Eye into Cackle Into Misfortune into Cackle into Quickened Ill Omen into Slumber into cackle to pretty much auto Suck whatever you want).

What my main problem is the people claiming that Slumber, by itself is game-warping and rediculously overpowered. Without the aid of Evil Eye, Cackle, and Misfortune, it is a decently strong ability. The unholy trifecta of Cackle, Evil Eye, and Misfortune push the S.o.S. ability (or any sort of S.o.S. ability/spell for that matter) into the realm of sheer power.


That said, Shifty, I still stand by the premise that I stated in my first post here, which is the only claim I have ever made about slumber, despite your assertions to the contrary (please quote where I have put forward anything else about it).

And that is: Slumber is the most powerful single thing in the game, considering its power relative to its ease of acquisition and use. If I have "moved the goalpost" at all, it is only this far: I am after discussion and consideration ready to admit that, at best, slumber is, perhaps, tied with a very small handful of other truly ridiculous things in the game such as haste, magic missile and dominate person.


Shifty wrote:

/shakes hands.

Departs field.

Have a good one :)

Okay, cool. Later, man. You have a good one too. We'll do this again sometime ;)


Erick Wilson wrote:

That said, Shifty, I still stand by the premise that I stated in my first post here, which is the only claim I have ever made about slumber, despite your assertions to the contrary (please quote where I have put forward anything else about it).

And that is: Slumber is the most powerful single thing in the game, considering its power relative to its ease of acquisition and use. If I have "moved the goalpost" at all, it is only this far: I am after discussion and consideration ready to admit that, at best, slumber is, perhaps, tied with a very small handful of other truly ridiculous things in the game such as haste, magic missile and dominate person.

Personally I would put the Witch Debuff trifecta in the mix as well. Each ability is fairly powerful alone, but can combine to make a truly devistating ability

Evil Eye= You get -4 to something no matter if you make the save or not? That is sheer rediculous.

Misfortune= Forcing the lowest save in a reroll is a powerful ability. The ability to force it for a whole turn on ANY d20 roll is even more rediculous.

Cackle= While Cackle in a vaccuum is weak (since it does nothing), it has a very low cost (a single move action), no usage limit, and can effectively make all the other witch's debuffs go on to near indefinite..


K177Y C47 wrote:

I will admit, Slumber is a powerful ability. It is part of the 5 point combo that pretty much wins (Evil Eye into Cackle Into Misfortune into Cackle into Quickened Ill Omen into Slumber into cackle to pretty much auto Suck whatever you want).

What my main problem is the people claiming that Slumber, by itself is game-warping and rediculously overpowered. Without the aid of Evil Eye, Cackle, and Misfortune, it is a decently strong ability. The unholy trifecta of Cackle, Evil Eye, and Misfortune push the S.o.S. ability (or any sort of S.o.S. ability/spell for that matter) into the realm of sheer power.

I think I see where we're misunderstanding each other. I'm not necessarily saying that slumber is "game warping," although I have personally experienced a few very disappointing episodes that it caused. I don't know how we could ever define what "game warping" means, which is why I don't like to have that conversation. What I'm saying is that it is overpowered, and I feel that is more or less unambiguously provable through side by side comparisons to similar abilities that are available to other characters. Do you see the distinction I'm making?

It's funny because there really just seem to be two irreconcilable viewpoints about this kind of matter. I am interested purely in the "math" if you will, divorced of its actual applications, and you are interested only in the applications divorced of the "math." It's interesting...

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