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Interested in thoughtful feedback and advice regarding a character concept for a Lore Warden 8/Knife Master 4. He would be a skill monkey, but lethal in most melee combat situations, a servant of Kelinahat, the empyreal lord of spies and stealth, specializing on eliminating the mortal minions of the forces of darkness. I haven’t given much thought to equipping him beyond weapon selection, though I would welcome equipment suggestions.
Strength - 14
Dexterity - 16 (+1 at 4th; +1 at 8th)
Constitution - 13
Intelligence - 13 (+1 at 12th)
Wisdom - 12
Charisma - 12
Traits:
Indomitable Faith - +1 Will save
River Rat - +1 to dagger damage; +1 swim (always a class skill)
Feats/Special:
1 (LW 1) Fast Learner; Weapon Finesse; Two-Weapon Fighting; [Scholastic]
2 (LW 2) Weapon Focus: Dagger; [Combat Expertise]
3 (KM 1) Eclectic; [Sneak Attack/Sneak Stab 1d8/1d4; Hidden Blade]
4 (KM 2) Rogue Talent Combat Trick Improved Dirty Trick; [Evasion]
5 (LW 3) Dilettante; [Maneuver Mastery +2]
6 (LW 4) Weapon Specialization: Dagger
7 (KM 3) Improved TWF; [Sneak Attack/Sneak Stab 2d8/2d4; Blade Sense +1]
8 (KM 4) Rogue Talent Bleeding Attack; [Uncanny Dodge]
9 (LW 5) Iron Will; [Weapon Training: Light Blades]
10 (LW 6) Greater Dirty Trick; [Bravery +1]
11 (LW 7) Hammer the Gap; [Know Thy Enemy; Maneuver Mastery +4]
12 (LW 8) Greater Weapon Focus: Dagger
Skills: Maxing out acrobatics, disable device, perception, sense motive, and UMD; achieving +9 in all knowledge checks to at least aid another; investment in linguistics to master the "dark" tongues and evaluate documents; some attention to stealth and "face" skills.
Why Dagger instead of Kukri? Knife master bonus applies to Kukris as well iirc, and the improved crit range is worth it.
Seconded. Kukris would give you better threat range, same damage, and a cooler name for your weapon of choice. It even works thematically with the whole Knife Nut idea.
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Why Dagger instead of Kukri? Knife master bonus applies to Kukris as well iirc, and the improved crit range is worth it.Seconded. Kukris would give you better threat range, same damage, and a cooler name for your weapon of choice. It even works thematically with the whole Knife Nut idea.
I recall seeing some folks demonstrate (even providing tables of data) that the River Rat's +1 damage on every hit was mathematically superior to the increased chances of critical hits from the kukri, even when adjusted for the Improved Critical feat or the Keen enhancement to the blades. I will probably switch to the kukri anyway, because I was once an Army officer posted in Kathmandu and worked extensively with the Nepalese Army. Every soldier there carries a kukri, used as much as a camp tool than as a weapon. Very cool country, even cooler people.
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Kukri will pull ahead once you get some fighter critical feats. You could swap out Hammer the Gap for Critical Focus at 11 and take Bleeding Critical at 12 for 2d6 bleed on crits.
It's a myth that the Kukri is superior in damage to a Dagger w/River Rat.
I did the math.
Dagger with River Rat is superior to a Kukri until your static bonuses get pretty far into the double digits.
It took until level 12 with a full STR build using Power Attack etc before the Kukri finally pulled ahead by 0.44 DPR.
It is worth noting that I did not factor in the "critical" feats. If you're going crit fishing the kukri is inherently going to be better for that purpose... My calculation was only to satisfy my own curiosity if the +1 static damage from River Rat could off-set the expanded threat range of the Kukri in terms of DPR.
I like the build Lawrence, and have been looking for an adequate way to make a "roguish" character with decent fighting skills - this may be very close to what I have been looking for.
A couple questions:
- Would you say he can perform as the party rogue, having given up Trapfinding (with the Knife Master archetype?);
- How would you see him wading into combat? Basically looking for sneak attack chances? How preferably? Flanking?
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Kukri will pull ahead once you get some fighter critical feats. You could swap out Hammer the Gap for Critical Focus at 11 and take Bleeding Critical at 12 for 2d6 bleed on crits.
Thanks for your suggestions, and I gave them some serious consideration. I think the focus on two-weapon fighting makes me value increasing the chances to hit from Greater Weapon Focus. So for now, I'll probable stick with the choices of Hammer the Gap and GWF.
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Kukri will pull ahead once you get some fighter critical feats. You could swap out Hammer the Gap for Critical Focus at 11 and take Bleeding Critical at 12 for 2d6 bleed on crits.It's a myth that the Kukri is superior in damage to a Dagger w/River Rat.
I did the math.
Dagger with River Rat is superior to a Kukri until your static bonuses get pretty far into the double digits.
It took until level 12 with a full STR build using Power Attack etc before the Kukri finally pulled ahead by 0.44 DPR.
It is worth noting that I did not factor in the "critical" feats. If you're going crit fishing the kukri is inherently going to be better for that purpose... My calculation was only to satisfy my own curiosity if the +1 static damage from River Rat could off-set the expanded threat range of the Kukri in terms of DPR.
I think I'll make the switch to kukris, mostly as an homage to my own experiences during two years in Nepal. I would prefer not to use a feat to increase the critical threat range, and I don't want to wait until the character would be able to select it. Instead, I plan to invest 4000gp in the keen property for two kukris, as soon as the character can afford it.
Switching to kukris, I'll change the River Rat trait. I'm thinking Observant, since the Knife Master gives up Trapfinding, making perception an even more important skill.
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I just had another thought on the build, you could go cad instead of lore warden since you are focused on dirty tricks. You would retain a bonus to those maneuvers, but also get catch off guard as a bonus. You could then use durable special material arrows as improvised daggers to easily bypass DR. Cad give a bonus to improvised weapons, and will let you perform a free dirty trick whenever you attack someone denied dex bonus.
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I like the build Lawrence, and have been looking for an adequate way to make a "roguish" character with decent fighting skills - this may be very close to what I have been looking for.
A couple questions:
- Would you say he can perform as the party rogue, having given up Trapfinding (with the Knife Master archetype?);
- How would you see him wading into combat? Basically looking for sneak attack chances? How preferably? Flanking?
Giving up Trapfinding is a bitter pill to swallow. I've given some thought to a TWF Urban Ranger, but I wanted access to and class bonuses for all the knowledge skills, linguistics and other INT-based skills. I also like the bonuses to combat maneuvers, picturing this character as a guy who doesn't mind fighting dirty. The Knife Master's bonuses to sneak attack damage also make the TWF character a lethal dude. So dropping the River Rat trait and its tempting damage bonuses to dagger damage was another tough call, but the kukri was too hard to resist. I added Observant to get a small bonus to perception, increasing the chance to spot traps and everything else a Pathfinder should be looking for on a mission. If the trap happens to be magical, he'll just have to find a way around it. Or he'll shrug and volunteer someone else to deal with it.
I'd see him usually taking one of two options in combat, based on his place in the initiative order. If there are enemies still flat-footed, he'd seek them out and sneak attack or hold his attack action until an ally has moved into a flanking position, if the enemy is heavily armored or otherwise might have a high AC. If an ally is already attacking an opponent, he'd move to flank and attack. He'd employ combat expertise if the opponent seems particularly dangerous. Later at mid-level and beyond, he'd consider using a dirty trick, like kicking the baddy in the unmentionables, if it looked like combat might take more than couple of rounds.
Lore Warden is my 'go to' archetype for Fighter dips when I'm making a Bard or Rogue, but usually only for a couple of levels. Unfortunately, I've found that in the long run Combat Maneuvers are almost never worth the investment... however, were I to go that route, Dirty Trick is the only option I would take. Used it once on a Halfling Archeologist Lore Warden, actually - he was always more fun than effective in combat, but fun is the name of the game, no?