Magus + Alter Self + Frostbite


Rules Questions


So I cast Alter Self and now I'm looking like a Troglodyte and have 3 natural attacks [bite, claw, claw].

Frostbite states that your melee touch attacks deal 1d6+1/level cold non-lethal damage and you get your "level" number of them.

If I'm a 3rd level Magus can I use the Trog natural attacks to administer the 3 Frostbites?

Are they Touch attacks?

Another way of putting it would be...

Can natural attacks count as touch attacks?

OR

Do I use Spell Combat to administer the 3 frostbites through my sword because I now have 3 attacks [I'm a Trog]

How?

Dark Archive

It's not that complicated.
Touch spells can always be applied via natural attacks (see touch spells in the core rulebook) so if you are in the shape of a Trog then every attack will try to apply a charge until you run out of charges.

As a Magus you can choose to channel the frostbite through your sword with spellstrike or through your natural attacks (as normal) or split them up and use both (sword and claw but the to hit penalties are really bad, -7 to each natural attack).

Simple really.


Lets start with what you can do by default.

Anyone, not just the Magus, can deliver touch attacks via Unarmed Strike or Natural Attack. You target AC rather than Touch AC as normal. The Magus can deliver through a weapon he's wielding and benefit from the weapon's crit range. Both Unarmed Strike and Natural Attacks are mechanically considered melee weapons so both can also be used with Spellstrike, but this usage is indistinguishable from the normal ability available to anyone save for one exception. If you expand the crit range of your US/NA, Spellstrike lets you pass that expanded crit range on to the spell whereas the default delivery method could have, for example, your Unarmed Strike crit with expanded range on a roll of 19 but the spell damage won't crit because it isn't a roll of 20.

That said, with 3 natural attacks, and presuming you're holding the charge of Frostbite with at least 3 uses left, you can make a full-attack and, potentially, deliver all three charges if all three of your attacks hit. However, if you used Spell Combat to cast, you only get the attacks you can make with a single, hand-associated weapon (ie. a single claw or slam) and you can't use non-hand-associated weapons (ie. boot blade, bite, etc). So, even though you have 3 different natural attacks, you must pick only one as your "designated weapon" for spell combat and it can make no more attacks than you could make with that specific weapon in a comparable full-attack (which, in the case of natural attacks, is 'one').

Lastly, the form doesn't grant you extra iterative attacks; it only grants you natural weapons. So you can't translate those 3 natural attacks into 3 iterative attacks with a manufactured weapon (ie. your sword).


So in Trog form its better to cast Frostbite separately and then discharge the damage the following round with the 3 natural attack. These attacks target regular AC and don't suffer any addition penalties other than the natural ones based on the form you're in, right?

So with a Trog that has 3 attacks bite, claw, claw all of which are primary I would use my full bab + strength + misc bonus on all 3 and deal Trog damage + strenght + 1d6 + level on any that hit, right??

So with that in mind would it be worth considering using a Race like Tengu with 3 natural attack rather than a Tiefling [my current choice]

Dark Archive

Dabnabit wrote:

So in Trog form its better to cast Frostbite separately and then discharge the damage the following round with the 3 natural attack. These attacks target regular AC and don't suffer any addition penalties other than the natural ones based on the form you're in, right?

So with a Trog that has 3 attacks bite, claw, claw all of which are primary I would use my full bab + strength + misc bonus on all 3 and deal Trog damage + strenght + 1d6 + level on any that hit, right??

So with that in mind would it be worth considering using a Race like Tengu with 3 natural attack rather than a Tiefling [my current choice]

Usually that is the better option however with a properly built Tiefling it can be more beneficial. With the addition of the prehensile tail it allows for more effective juggling of items as well as getting the 3 natural weapons. Claws from the maw or claw racial trait and a bite from adopted:tusked trait.

@Kazaan, you are slightly incorrect in your statement. The above mentioned trog would not be limited to a single hand associated weapon. It can use any or ALL hand associated weapons (both Claws, Prehensile Hair, etc).
The restriction on spellcombat is not that exclusive, as long as the weapon you are trying to use is hand associated then it is a valid option to use during spell combat.

Also, with the new arcana introduced in magical marketplace the natural weapon using magus can add any other natural attack into the list of valid choices (Bite, Gore, Wings, etc.) for the 1:1 cost of an arcana.


If you attack with a natural attack + Frostbite vs. touch AC, you don't get damage from the natural attack. If you attack vs. normal AC, you do. At least that is my understanding.

/cevah


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

@Kazaan, you are slightly incorrect in your statement. The above mentioned trog would not be limited to a single hand associated weapon. It can use any or ALL hand associated weapons (both Claws, Prehensile Hair, etc).

The restriction on spellcombat is not that exclusive, as long as the weapon you are trying to use is hand associated then it is a valid option to use during spell combat.

No, what I said was spot on. I was referring to Spell Combat being limited to a single weapon. Of course, making a normal, non-spell-combat full-attack wouldn't suffer such a limitation, but Spell Combat requires you to use "one hand to cast your spell" and make all your melee attacks with "the weapon in your other hand". This means you use Hand A for spellcasting and Hand B for as many attacks as can be made with the weapon wielded in Hand B (which, in the case of a Claw or other Natural Weapon is 1). It isn't permissible to use the Claw on your spellcasting hand to make attacks.

Liberty's Edge

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

It's not that complicated.

Touch spells can always be applied via natural attacks (see touch spells in the core rulebook) so if you are in the shape of a Trog then every attack will try to apply a charge until you run out of charges.

As a Magus you can choose to channel the frostbite through your sword with spellstrike or through your natural attacks (as normal) or split them up and use both (sword and claw but the to hit penalties are really bad, -7 to each natural attack).

Simple really.

Spellstrike isn't spell combat, it don't give a to hit penalty.

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Also, with the new arcana introduced in magical marketplace the natural weapon using magus can add any other natural attack into the list of valid choices (Bite, Gore, Wings, etc.) for the 1:1 cost of an arcana.

You mean this one?

Blood of the moon wrote:

Natural Spell Combat (Ex): The magus can use his spell combat class feature with a natural attack of his choice. If he does, he gains a +2 bonus on concentration checks. If the natural attack is made with an appendage that would normally hold a weapon (such as a claw attack), the magus cannot wield a weapon in that appendage while making natural attacks with it. If the natural attack is a bite or other attack that does not require a free appendage to make, the magus can use the natural attack in addition to all of the attacks he could make with his melee weapon, if he has one.

A magus can select this arcana more than once. The bonus on concentration checks does not stack. Each time he selects this arcana, he selects another natural weapon. For example, a magus could select this arcana twice, choosing claw attacks and bite attacks. This would allow him to use a full-round action to make all of his claw attacks with his free hand and all of his bite attacks in addition to casting a spell. This arcana otherwise functions exactly like the spell combat class feature.

It is in Blood of the moon.

Kazaan wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

@Kazaan, you are slightly incorrect in your statement. The above mentioned trog would not be limited to a single hand associated weapon. It can use any or ALL hand associated weapons (both Claws, Prehensile Hair, etc).

The restriction on spellcombat is not that exclusive, as long as the weapon you are trying to use is hand associated then it is a valid option to use during spell combat.
No, what I said was spot on. I was referring to Spell Combat being limited to a single weapon. Of course, making a normal, non-spell-combat full-attack wouldn't suffer such a limitation, but Spell Combat requires you to use "one hand to cast your spell" and make all your melee attacks with "the weapon in your other hand". This means you use Hand A for spellcasting and Hand B for as many attacks as can be made with the weapon wielded in Hand B (which, in the case of a Claw or other Natural Weapon is 1). It isn't permissible to use the Claw on your spellcasting hand to make attacks.

With the back and forth about spell combat counting as a full combat action I am no more sure how it work.

FAQ wrote:

Magus: When using spell combat, can the weapon in my other hand be an unarmed strike or a natural weapon?

Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 04/05/13

Magus, Spell Combat: When using spell combat, do I specifically have to use the weapon in my other hand, or can I use a mixture of weapons (such as armor spikes and bites) so long as my casting hand remains free?

You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 04/05/13

Magus, Spell Combat: Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?

Yes.

Edit 9/9/13: This is a revised ruling about how haste interacts with effects that are essentially a full attack, even though the creature isn't specifically using the full attack action (as required by haste). The earlier ruling did not allow the extra attack from haste when using spell combat.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 04/05/13

Magus, Spell Combat: If I use spell combat, how many weapon attacks can I make?

You can make as many weapon attacks as you would normally be able to make if you were making a full attack with that weapon. For example, if you are an 8th-level magus (BAB +6/+1), you could make two weapon attacks when using spell combat.

Edit 9/9/13: This is a revised ruling about how haste interacts with effects that are essentially a full attack, even though the creature isn't specifically using the full attack action (as required by haste). The earlier ruling implied that spell combat did not allow the extra attack from haste (because spell combat was not using the full attack action).

—Pathfinder Design Team, 09/07/13

1) you can use claws or slams or attacks associated with a hand;

2) you should use the "weapon in the other hand";
3) but it count as a full attack;
4) don't really add anything useful.

Reading it in order it seem that you can make all the attacks allowed by a full attack, but you can deliver the spell only with the "weapon in the other hand" (or as a touch attack, as normal for all spellcasters).

The 9/9/13 edit has again muddled the waters, as it isn't clear at all, what are the "other effects" in "haste and other effects". It includes or excludes natural attacks, boot blades and so on?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

There is precedent for excluding some elements normally allowed in a full-attack because of the special ability that you're using. Flurry of Blows, for example, doesn't allow you to use natural weapons unless you have Feral Combat Training and even then, you treat them as iterative weapons with the Monk property rather than normal natural weapons. With that in mind, you're still making all the attacks you could make in a full-attack, including extra attacks from Haste, a Speed weapon, Medusa's Wrath, or similar abilities that offer additional attacks.

Therefore, it's just as I said, "Make all your attacks... with the weapon in your other hand" means you treat it as if that's the only weapon you're wielding and make as many attacks as you're entitled to with it in a full-attack. In the case of a Slam or Claw, that amounts to one attack.


I agree with Kazaan. If a four-handed Magus uses Spell Combat, he must have one of his hands free, and he must designate one of the other three hands as "...your other hand."

Once that's designated, he gets to make all of the normal attacks offered by his BAB iteratives and any Haste-like effects - but all of them must be delivered with the weapon associated with the designated hand.

This is only if he's using Spell Combat. If he instead foregoes Spell Combat and burns a round casting a touch spell, then holds the charge, he can do a full attack the next round using any legal combination of weapons, and deliver the charges from the spell through each of those attacks.


I think, for this particular scenario, this would be the best tactical procedure:

Round 1) Spell Combat using Unarmed Strike as your weapon and cast Frostbite at the end of the action. If you have 3 Frostbite uses, you'd need to hold the charge. If you have more, you can burn 1 charge using your free delivery attack.

Round 2) Full-Attack using your 3 Natural Attacks with each one delivering a charge of Frostbite. You may or may not use up all remaining Frostbite charges.

Round 3)
- A) If you still have at least 2 charges of Frostbite, Full-Attack again using Natural Attacks until you have no more than use left at the end. Then, go to B.

- B) If you have no more than 1 charge of Frostbite remaining, go back to Round 1, using Spell Combat with Unarmed Strikes (you've got 3 unarmed strikes to burn your 1 remaining charge if you have it), and cast your Frostbite again at the end of the action.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Magus + Alter Self + Frostbite All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.