Please fix PFS Chase scenes


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First off I wanted to say I really really love the concept of chase scenes.

My problem is they are very poorly executed. In my limited PFS experience, these scenes just make 90% of the table feel left out or bored. Im lucky enough to be playing regularly with a ninja-monk. He is the only one that can operate in this kind of thing. The rest of us can just take a break or take out of phones and do something else for 10 to 15 mins. I know this isn't in the spirit of PFS.

Part of the problem I would guess, is that there is only two skill checks that determine if you pass. There are 35 possible skills to put ranks in. Along with some classes only having 2+INT MOD (classes with 2+ are the largest group), I'm not sure how characters are even suppose to participate. Also wearing heavy armor seems to kill most peoples chance of doing a lot of these checks.

5/5

The reason there are specific skill checks is because they are the most logical -- when breaking through a crowd appraise is not going to be useful, but intimidate could.

If you are feeling bored, I suggest thinking outside the box for a solution. I had a wizard that couldn't beat the skill checks, however, he had "create pit" he won initiative and created a pit underneath the bad guy ... bad guy couldn't make the required DC to exit the pit ... others got to the bad guy and proceeded to beat him senseless.

The wizard while not able to get into melee with the bad guy was still able to contribute and helped by thinking outside the box and using what he had available.

another option could be a potion of fly, or "use your imagination".

I don't think the system needs to be altered at this point.

Sovereign Court 3/5

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Any proper GM should have no issue allowing creative solutions. Also last I recall theres what 3 chase scenes among all scenarios?

Dark Archive

The last PFS chase I was in, flying was specified to give a +10 bonus to jumping, but mysteriously not to let you fly over the offending object. I apologize for not remembering which adventure it was.

PFS chases being fun relies heavily on table variation. GM's can make all sorts of common sense rulings about solutions other than the two skill checks, and if they do it well it can be a blast.

4/5 ****

I can think of 4.

Scenarios with Chases:
Rise of the Goblin Guild
Race for the Runecarved Key
God's Market Gamble
The Midnight Mauler

5/5

Greasitty wrote:

The last PFS chase I was in, flying was specified to give a +10 bonus to jumping, but mysteriously not to let you fly over the offending object. I apologize for not remembering which adventure it was.

PFS chases being fun relies heavily on table variation. GM's can make all sorts of common sense rulings about solutions other than the two skill checks, and if they do it well it can be a blast.

Exactly ... if you have a player with a character that would not naturally have one or both of the skill checks (although I think they've tried to put in a generic one) but has something that will work and fit into the theme, there is nothing wrong with making minor adjustments so that everyone can participate -- I don't consider this making an unfair change to the scenario as it's taking out an unfair challenge.


Mason Whitlark wrote:
Also last I recall theres what 3 chase scenes among all scenarios?

Maybe thats just my luck, but being new to PFS (12 scenarios under my belt) I have been in two of them.

Coming up to a wall that has climb check DC 20 along with disable device check DC 15 to get though the gate, Killed the any resonable expectation for everyone else to get by. High STR characters wearing heavy armors, the sorcerer and other assorted low STR characters not having Disable Device.

5/5

Slacker2010 wrote:
Mason Whitlark wrote:
Also last I recall theres what 3 chase scenes among all scenarios?

Maybe thats just my luck, but being new to PFS (12 scenarios under my belt) I have been in two of them.

Coming up to a wall that has climb check DC 20 along with disable device check DC 15 to get though the gate, Killed the any resonable expectation for everyone else to get by. High STR characters wearing heavy armors, the sorcerer and other assorted low STR characters not having Disable Device.

That's where an experienced GM can step in and work with the player to see if there is another reasonable option for them to bypass the challenge or to see if there is anything that the character(s) have the can help them.. such as a rope and grappling hook.


Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
if you have a player with a character that would not naturally have one or both of the skill checks (although I think they've tried to put in a generic one)

Part of my point is that there are 35 skills with a large portion of classes getting 2+INT MOD. Perception is by far the most heavily rewarded skill to have. Knowledge skills, Spellcraft, and Diplomacy are also very prized. Most of these not really included in these Chase scenes.

The Exchange 5/5

Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
Slacker2010 wrote:
Mason Whitlark wrote:
Also last I recall theres what 3 chase scenes among all scenarios?

Maybe thats just my luck, but being new to PFS (12 scenarios under my belt) I have been in two of them.

Coming up to a wall that has climb check DC 20 along with disable device check DC 15 to get though the gate, Killed the any resonable expectation for everyone else to get by. High STR characters wearing heavy armors, the sorcerer and other assorted low STR characters not having Disable Device.

That's where an experienced GM can step in and work with the player to see if there is another reasonable option for them to bypass the challenge or to see if there is anything that the character(s) have the can help them.. such as a rope and grappling hook.

But without the experienced judge?

This is still the YMMV issue...

5/5 *

Slacker2010 wrote:
Part of my point is that there are 35 skills with a large portion of classes getting 2+INT MOD. Perception is by far the most heavily rewarded skill to have. Knowledge skills, Spellcraft, and Diplomacy are also very prized. Most of these not really included in these Chase scenes.

What PFCBG is trying to say (and I agree 100% with) is that the GM doesn't have to be 100% limited to the two options on the card/board of the chase scene. GMs ARE allowed (and encouraged) to allow for players to come up with creative solutions.

For example, using this skills you quoted.
PC gets to the "fruit cart vendor" card, and it says you need to either (1) dodge around it (DC12 Reflex save) or (2) go past it (Bull rush maneuver, 14 CMD). The PC is a Sorcerer who has both low CMB and low reflex saves. It could take him a lot of tries to get past. If the player told me "hey, GM, can I use my Diplomacy to convince the fruit cart vendor to move the cart so I can go through?" GREAT, he came up with a solution that works for this character AND is appropriate to the situation. I would let him totally try it.

5/5

Slacker2010 wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
if you have a player with a character that would not naturally have one or both of the skill checks (although I think they've tried to put in a generic one)
Part of my point is that there are 35 skills with a large portion of classes getting 2+INT MOD. Perception is by far the most heavily rewarded skill to have. Knowledge skills, Spellcraft, and Diplomacy are also very prized. Most of these not really included in these Chase scenes.

Spellcraft is not a good skill for bypassing most if not all of the obstacles... the skill to use has to be logical. Perception will also not get by the majority of the obstacles. Diplomacy can be used in some instances -- but will not bypass physical obstacles (I think I've seen one true diplo obstacle). knowledge skills won't get you past most if not all of the physical obstacles.

Again; the skill to get past the obstacle has to be logical for that obstacle. I.E. Locked door in a wall -- would require a strength check or disable device.. Character is a wizard with 10 str and no disable device (party does not have a rogue). As the Gm I would be asking what gear the player has on them -- do they have a rope (if so can they knot it up quick), do they have a grappling hook -- if so throw on top of wall -- shimmy up one side, make an acrobatics check to avoid fall damage and they are on their way. Another option is to have 2 or 3 of the characters assist each other with the strength check -- one might fail, but 2 or 3 could surely get past it.

There are things a GM can do to help and aid the players that do not take away from the fun time. Changing the rule system that has been in place for at least a couple of years if not a smidge longer is not feasible and won't be done. Educating the GM in question as to how to work with in the rule system and involve everyone at the table is more feasible and can easily be done.

5/5

nosig wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
Slacker2010 wrote:
Mason Whitlark wrote:
Also last I recall theres what 3 chase scenes among all scenarios?

Maybe thats just my luck, but being new to PFS (12 scenarios under my belt) I have been in two of them.

Coming up to a wall that has climb check DC 20 along with disable device check DC 15 to get though the gate, Killed the any resonable expectation for everyone else to get by. High STR characters wearing heavy armors, the sorcerer and other assorted low STR characters not having Disable Device.

That's where an experienced GM can step in and work with the player to see if there is another reasonable option for them to bypass the challenge or to see if there is anything that the character(s) have the can help them.. such as a rope and grappling hook.

But without the experienced judge?

This is still the YMMV issue...

If you are an experienced player, which I personally know you to be, there are ways to suggest things and to bring things up in the moment to help. There does not need to be a change to the system because people can't figure how how to think outside the box.

The Exchange 5/5

Go here for some more views on chase scenes.


Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
Slacker2010 wrote:
Mason Whitlark wrote:
Also last I recall theres what 3 chase scenes among all scenarios?

Maybe thats just my luck, but being new to PFS (12 scenarios under my belt) I have been in two of them.

Coming up to a wall that has climb check DC 20 along with disable device check DC 15 to get though the gate, Killed the any resonable expectation for everyone else to get by. High STR characters wearing heavy armors, the sorcerer and other assorted low STR characters not having Disable Device.

That's where an experienced GM can step in and work with the player to see if there is another reasonable option for them to bypass the challenge or to see if there is anything that the character(s) have the can help them.. such as a rope and grappling hook.

I played this scenario, and my heavily armored inquisitor had a total of a -6 modifier on his Climb check after armor and speed penalties. I pulled out the knotted rope and grappling hook… and was given a +2 for my 'thinking outside the box' (so still a -4 modifier). Having no ranks in Disable Device, I basically beat my head against the wall for the remainder of the 'chase'.

For new GMs, the chase rules can be somewhat intimidating. They do not in and of themselves mention other solutions, so the inexperienced easily assume that the two options listed are the only options, period.

5/5

Thanis Kartaleon wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
Slacker2010 wrote:
Mason Whitlark wrote:
Also last I recall theres what 3 chase scenes among all scenarios?

Maybe thats just my luck, but being new to PFS (12 scenarios under my belt) I have been in two of them.

Coming up to a wall that has climb check DC 20 along with disable device check DC 15 to get though the gate, Killed the any resonable expectation for everyone else to get by. High STR characters wearing heavy armors, the sorcerer and other assorted low STR characters not having Disable Device.

That's where an experienced GM can step in and work with the player to see if there is another reasonable option for them to bypass the challenge or to see if there is anything that the character(s) have the can help them.. such as a rope and grappling hook.

I played this scenario, and my heavily armored inquisitor had a total of a -6 modifier on his Climb check after armor and speed penalties. I pulled out the knotted rope and grappling hook… and was given a +2 for my 'thinking outside the box' (so still a -4 modifier). Having no ranks in Disable Device, I basically beat my head against the wall for the remainder of the 'chase'.

For new GMs, the chase rules can be somewhat intimidating. They do not in and of themselves mention other solutions, so the inexperienced easily assume that the two options listed are the only options, period.

I personally think that the players are one of my most valuable tools as a GM. Many times creative and interesting ideas pop up in one game from the players... later one similar situation I can bring that idea up to the players as a viable option.

As a player don't let the fact that the GM is inexperienced worry you, they will learn as much from you as you can from them (different styles and ideas etc). Inexperienced GMs need people willing to speak up and help guide them towards making the out of the box decisions.

If you don't want to do it at the table, wait til after and pull the GM aside with a "hey I loved when you did this, but I noticed during this party you could have tried...." They will eventually thank you for it down the road.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Another thing to keep in mind:

Not all characters will be good at all things.

In one scenario, The whole table sat around for about an hour while my bard blew through the social negotiation needed to get us through that part of the module, (I think the lowest I got on any roll was a 30. And I was considering using my folio to reroll that)

Then I spent the rest of the night twiddling my thumbs, because it was the 8-9 sub tier of a 5-9 adventure, and I couldn't hit, let alone hurt any of the enemies we were fighting.

Some times the scenarios are just like that.

By the way, with the DC 20 climb / DC 15 locked gate:

The DC 20 climb could have been reduced to DC 5 if anyone had grappling hook / arrow and rope. (And those are so cheep every character should have them) And one character with DD should have been able to unlock the gate for everyone so that no one needs to make a climb check. It sounds like the problem isn't the chase rules, it is that the monk / ninja left his party behind and went on without them.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

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nosig wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
Slacker2010 wrote:
Mason Whitlark wrote:
Also last I recall theres what 3 chase scenes among all scenarios?

Maybe thats just my luck, but being new to PFS (12 scenarios under my belt) I have been in two of them.

Coming up to a wall that has climb check DC 20 along with disable device check DC 15 to get though the gate, Killed the any resonable expectation for everyone else to get by. High STR characters wearing heavy armors, the sorcerer and other assorted low STR characters not having Disable Device.

That's where an experienced GM can step in and work with the player to see if there is another reasonable option for them to bypass the challenge or to see if there is anything that the character(s) have the can help them.. such as a rope and grappling hook.

But without the experienced judge?

This is still the YMMV issue...

I find this is one of the biggest problems. I have an Alchemist that has had Wings since 6th level. If you look at most of the challenges in a chase scene, a huge number of them can logically be completely bypassed by the ability to fly.

I have had DMs that have said, "No. You cannot bypass this with Fly. The chase rules require you to succeed in a Climb or Jump check to move on so that is what you have to do."

I have had DMs that have said, "You cannot bypass this with Fly. The chase rules require you to succeed in a Climb or Jump check to move on, but I will give you a bonus to the check since you are flying."

I have had DMs that have said, "No, I'm not giving it to you that easily even though logically you should just be able to bypass the next 3 chase boxes automatically. This is supposed to be a challenge so you need to make the checks."

And I have had DMs that have said, "Okay, you automatically bypass the next 3 chase boxes automatically because you can fly."

Thinking outside the box doesn't help any when your DM won't allow the solutions you come up with.

I too have heard the collective groan at the table when it becomes obvious we are in a chase scene and half the party realizes they are never going to get past the first chase box. Clerics in particular (the last person you want to leave behind) seem especially vulnerable to this since they tend have neither good skills, good movement speeds, good mobility related spells, good armor check penalties, and good physical stats unless they are melee based.

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

Count me in the hater camp.

I hate playing a Chase scene as a player.
I hate watching a PC fall behind everyone else as a GM.
I hate adjudicating the "creative solutions" because I always want to say yes.

I pretty much hate everything about chase scenes as they are. If I were to write a module and I wanted a chase scene, I would write some box text to have spots in it [speedy] and [strong] and [frail] words that the GM substitutes with PC names that match the descriptions. Everyone feels like it was dynamic, and no one feels like they failed miserably.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

FLite wrote:

Another thing to keep in mind:

Not all characters will be good at all things.

In one scenario, The whole table sat around for about an hour while my bard blew through the social negotiation needed to get us through that part of the module, (I think the lowest I got on any roll was a 30. And I was considering using my folio to reroll that)

Then I spent the rest of the night twiddling my thumbs, because it was the 8-9 sub tier of a 5-9 adventure, and I couldn't hit, let alone hurt any of the enemies we were fighting.

Some times the scenarios are just like that.

The difference being you have at least a shot at doing something effective in a combat because you have far more options than just making one of two skill checks. Logically this should be the case with Chase Scenes but there seems to be a issue with this (see below).

Quote:

By the way, with the DC 20 climb / DC 15 locked gate:

The DC 20 climb could have been reduced to DC 5 if anyone had grappling hook / arrow and rope. (And those are so cheep every character should have them) And one character with DD should have been able to unlock the gate for everyone so that no one needs to make a climb check. It sounds like the problem isn't the chase rules, it is that the monk / ninja left his party behind and went on without them.

Taking out a rope and grappling hooks is going to take you at least a round. Going back and helping party members has the same effect. In my experience, since the bad guy always starts ahead of you and always seems to have the proper skill set for navigating the chase challenges losing as little as one round can mean he gets away. In many cases, you are only going to catch him if you can make both skill checks to bypass multiple boxes in one of the challenges.

Chase Scenes are still new to a lot of DMs and as a result, many DMs feel far less comfortable with them than they do the social or combat encounters they are more familiar with. This tends to actually discourage out of the box thinking because DMs are afraid that by letting you bypass rules they are not very familiar with they may be running it wrong. So, at least to some degree, this problem will diminish the more chase scenes DMs run.


Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
There does not need to be a change to the system because people can't figure how how to think outside the box.

From my understanding, PFS is suppose to be run "as is" for the sake of uniformity. Thanis Kartaleon and Trollbill are voicing similar experiances so this is not an isolated event. Telling people that "the system works, sorry you cant figure it out" is not helping.

While those are not the words you used. That is what I feel like you are implying.

5/5

Carlos Robledo wrote:
GREAT, he came up with a solution that works for this character AND is appropriate to the situation. I would let him totally try it.

Yep, but don't trivialize the DC. Consider the DC of the other "official" options when determining the DC for a creative solution.

5/5

Slacker2010 wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
There does not need to be a change to the system because people can't figure how how to think outside the box.

From my understanding, PFS is suppose to be run "as is" for the sake of uniformity. Thanis Kartaleon and Trollbill are voicing similar experiances so this is not an isolated event. Telling people that "the system works, sorry you cant figure it out" is not helping.

While those are not the words you used. That is what I feel like you are implying.

Myself and others have stated that there is some leeway in this .. where RAW comes in is not changing the number or type of monsters in a combat. Gms do have leeway to make minor changes in order to be able to include everyone, if you have a GM that isn't doing that then as a player you need to bring up that they have the leeway -- or take it to the coordinator.

And please don't put implications into what I say, I'm a fairly straight-forward person and if that is what I wanted to say or even imply, I would have said it.

What I'm saying, is that you are asking for a change to a rule system because there are select people that are having issues. You've been given options on how to get past it and overcome those issues. You are still asking for a change to the rule system... I can tell you that Paizo doesn't just change things on a whim or because a select few are having problems. It would have to be a major gameplay issue (which it is not) for them to consider taking a look at it.

I'm not saying that no one else in the society is having issues with chase scenes, obviously from some of the other posters, there are.. but chase scenes are not that prevalent in PFS scenarios.

So here is my suggestion... without implication or hidden meaning...

Learn to think outside the box. Yes there are going to be GMs that cannot adjust and adapt and you are just going to have to deal with it and move on and decide later if you want to play with those GMs again or not.

There are a total of 4 (four) scenarios where chase scenes are an issue. Don't play those four (there are 4.5 seasons of other scenarios to play) and you won't have to worry about it... You said you've played in 2 of them already so yayyy you only have to worry about missing out on 2 scenarios out of the hundreds that are out there.

I'm sorry that you have had issue so early in your PFS career, however, in my opinion this is just something that you're going to have to move past and avoid the scenarios (outlines in Pirate Robs' post) that have chase scenes.

5/5

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Official Chase Tips from RftRK:

Creative Skill Use: Allow for alternative skills to be used when it makes sense, but assign a higher DC for the alternative skill use. For example, a PC may wish to use Acrobatics to jump over some collapsed rubble instead of using the Climb skill to clamber over the obstacle as presented as an option for that chase card. In this instance an increase of 5 in the DC would result in a difficult obstacle, but still reward the player for his creativity. This is especially important when the obstacle calls for trained-only skills.
Unskilled Characters: If players are having an extremely difficult time succeeding at skill checks, allow them to spend a full-round action “finding another way around” after they’ve already failed at a given obstacle.
Immersion: While some GMs may wish to describe obstacles exactly as they’re presented on the card, describing obstacles and possible ways of overcoming them in more details will enhance the immersive and cinematic feel of the chase. Additionally, if possible, GMs are encouraged to keep the exact skills required and the associated DCs from the players, as this will go a long way to improving the chase experience.

4/5

By the way, having played under experienced GMs who refused to allow creative solutions in older chases, those Chase Tips from RftRK were one of the best things in the whole scenario. Kudos for that Kyle!

3/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

I've also seen fellow players waste expensive potions of fly, just to be told they still have to make the checks because, hey, chase rules. And my monk wasn't allowed to use Profession (gardener) with his masterwork gardening shears to cut a hole through a rose hedge either.

Here's my suggestion for how chases should work:

Each character can take their turn normally, adding "distance points" equal to their speed for every move action. The rules of each individual chase would tell you how well you could target other people ahead (maybe you have a clear shot in the city streets at night, but chasing through the forest provides 50% concealment). Then every turn you run into obstacles which require skill checks or saves, or else you lose an action or a whole turn (but you DON'T get completely stuck; the obstacles hit, then are over). When your distance points equal the quarry's, you've caught them.


Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
There does not need to be a change to the system because people can't figure how how to think outside the box.

I am one of those people that are bring up this issue, so this is how I do take your comment.

Yes I could just ask on these boards to find out what scenarios have chase scenes and avoid those 4, but that is not the reason for this post. My first statement of this thread was that I love the concept. I feel it has been poorly executed. Feedback and interaction with the community is one of the greatest things Paizo has going for it.

PFS Year of the Demon, top of page 33 wrote:
If an encounter is a trap, haunt, or skill check that needs to be achieved to bypass a situation then the listed DCs and results are not to be altered, as they are the mechanics of that encounter.

If your DM reads a chase scene as an encounter, then I can see why some of them dont allow potions of Fly or other means to get around the Chase skill checks.

It was my hope to shed light for the future evolution of Pathfinder. Im not here to argue with you about it. This is the way I (and others, as you can see from the post) feel about chase scenes in their current format.

5/5

Slacker2010 wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
There does not need to be a change to the system because people can't figure how how to think outside the box.

I am one of those people that are bring up this issue, so this is how I do take your comment.

Yes I could just ask on these boards to find out what scenarios have chase scenes and avoid those 4, but that is not the reason for this post. My first statement of this thread was that I love the concept. I feel it has been poorly executed. Feedback and interaction with the community is one of the greatest things Paizo has going for it.

PFS Year of the Demon, top of page 33 wrote:
If an encounter is a trap, haunt, or skill check that needs to be achieved to bypass a situation then the listed DCs and results are not to be altered, as they are the mechanics of that encounter.

If your DM reads a chase scene as an encounter, then I can see why some of them dont allow potions of Fly or other means to get around the Chase skill checks.

It was my hope to shed light for the future evolution of Pathfinder. Im not here to argue with you about it. This is the way I (and others, as you can see from the post) feel about chase scenes in their current format.

I'm not trying to discount your experience or your feelings. However, chase scenes are such a small small small percentage of PFS scenarios that posting on the PFS boards to have them changed is a waste of time -- being honest n keeping it real; and won't change anything.

You might have better luck posting this in the general forums to have the rules as a whole across the game (PFS and non-PFS) vs. the small subset of PFS that deals with chase rules. Like has been stated, there are only 4 scenarios that have chase scenes. PFS management isn't going to look at revamping rules for such a small percentage.

Yes others in PFS have similar experiences, but again 4 scenarios isn't enough to make Mike and crew look at the chase rules for just PFS.

5/5

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RainyDayNinja wrote:
I've also seen fellow players waste expensive potions of fly, just to be told they still have to make the checks because, hey, chase rules.

Non-standard Forms of Movement: Allow for creative methods of travel by the PCs. Should the PCs take to the air, allow them to automatically succeed at checks to bypass ground-based obstacles and move a number of cards equal to the distance of a single move unless they state they are attempting to move three cards at the beginning of their turn. If the PCs use teleportation to move, keep in mind that this chase is happening across the city, taking many turns along the way. The PCs must have line of sight to the chase square they wish to teleport to.


Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
You might have better luck posting this in the general forums to have the rules as a whole across the game (PFS and non-PFS) vs. the small subset of PFS that deals with chase rules. Like has been stated, there are only 4 scenarios that have chase scenes. PFS management isn't going to look at revamping rules for such a small percentage.

Fair enough, Im still not sure where I should voice this feedback. It is meant for the developers who write PFS scenarios. If a moderator could move it I would be appreciative. Also if someone would let me know where I should be posting feedback for future scenario development, I would be thankful.

4/5 ****

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When I GMed Race for the Rune Carved Key at tier 10-11. The players all immediately drank their potions of fly.

The super awesome [redacted] who they were chasing, who was clearly very powerful failed her check to overcome a fruit cart.

My players suddenly felt vindicated for all the trouble they had had with chase scenes in the past, watching this epic NPC be stymied by a fruit cart.

They were releaved to know it wasn't just them that sometimes had problems with the simple things in life.

Of course this meant that when they caught up a round or so later I added the fruit cart to the map and had the vendor yell at them.


Problem is with chases themselves. In a chase? Awesome! Mechanically? Boring.

Hard to fix a game mechanic specifically for PFS and post implementation I'd think.

5/5 5/55/55/5

PurpleFluffyBunnyCatGnome wrote:
If you are feeling bored, I suggest thinking outside the box for a solution. I had a wizard that couldn't beat the skill checks, however, he had "create pit" he won initiative and created a pit underneath the bad guy ... bad guy couldn't make the required DC to exit the pit ... others got to the bad guy and proceeded to beat him senseless.

The problem there is whether or not he has line of sight to the bad guy. The chase rules say that line of sight is sometimes broken, but whether its between 2 maps, every map, just some of the maps etc is left up to the DM, so you may or may not be able to cast anything on them.

5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
PurpleFluffyBunnyCatGnome wrote:
If you are feeling bored, I suggest thinking outside the box for a solution. I had a wizard that couldn't beat the skill checks, however, he had "create pit" he won initiative and created a pit underneath the bad guy ... bad guy couldn't make the required DC to exit the pit ... others got to the bad guy and proceeded to beat him senseless.
The problem there is whether or not he has line of sight to the bad guy. The chase rules say that line of sight is sometimes broken, but whether its between 2 maps, every map, just some of the maps etc is left up to the DM, so you may or may not be able to cast anything on them.

I was giving an example .. take as such and don't nitpick good grief.

All I'm saying is that there are ways to get around in chases, Granted GMs have the right to say no (as they do) but I would hazard a guess that most well-thought out options will be listened to and decided up on fairly based on the information in the scenario.

4/5

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Kyle Baird wrote:
Official Chase Tips from RftRK:

Most of the tips from that scenario should be the rules for chases. They make so much more sense and are better mechanically for the game that once I had a chance to read them they became the baseline for all chases I run.

I've ran all the chases available in PFS, and I ran one badly, one average, and two well. The one I ran badly would have been a lot player for me and the players had I read those suggestions first.

I don't know if it was Tim, yourself, or both but whoever wrote those tips did a wonderful job of helping me understand chases better.


Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
All I'm saying is that there are ways to get around in chases, Granted GMs have the right to say no (as they do) but I would hazard a guess that most well-thought out options will be listened to and decided up on fairly based on the information in the scenario.

My entirely anecdotal evidence suggest not every GM does. Most of mine haven't and don't allow for alternate solutions to those listed, but I have 101 reasons to carry a potion of fly, but I feel like that makes it moot anyway. Its mostly a problem for those poor kids with no skill points and who didn't bring a potion of fly to the scenario or game.

Was funny because one time I was in a chase and we got into a discussion about a magical door that you can fly over, but not jump over, climb over, or phase through. It also magically locked itself and when destroyed it always regenerated. Yep. Super door. Couldn't get that bone thrown though.

5/5

MrSin wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
All I'm saying is that there are ways to get around in chases, Granted GMs have the right to say no (as they do) but I would hazard a guess that most well-thought out options will be listened to and decided up on fairly based on the information in the scenario.

My entirely anecdotal evidence suggest not every GM does. Most of mine haven't and don't allow for alternate solutions to those listed, but I have 101 reasons to carry a potion of fly, but I feel like that makes it moot anyway. Its mostly a problem for those poor kids with no skill points and who didn't bring a potion of fly to the scenario or game.

Was funny because one time I was in a chase and we got into a discussion about a magical door that you can fly over, but not jump over, climb over, or phase through. It also magically locked itself and when destroyed it always regenerated. Yep. Super door. Couldn't get that bone thrown though.

I'm so not going to split hairs on this, for the love of pete.

Not all GMs are created equal, they are going to have different ideas, interpretations and opinions on things.

It's just like not all players are created equal, you are going to have the good ones and you are going to have the annoying ones that pull out shadow creatures that do ability damage and don't have a handy cheatsheet for the GM as to how things are adjusted...

so you see... we each have our own opinion.


Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
I'm so not going to split hairs on this, for the love of pete.

You might want to take a break and take a few deep breaths or step away from the computer for a while. Nothing I said was meant to be aggravating, just stating my own experience and a funny story.

5/5

MrSin wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
I'm so not going to split hairs on this, for the love of pete.
You might want to take a break and take a few deep breaths or step away from the computer for a while. Nothing I said was meant to be aggravating, just stating my own experience and a funny story.

Lol ... thanks for assuming that I have the emotion "mad or upset" in my repertoire ... I actually don't.

I'm moreso amused at the steps some will take in order to try and validate their argument.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:

I was giving an example .. take as such and don't nitpick good grief.

Its not a nitpick. Just do something creative is a little harder in organized play where you don't necessarily know where the DM draws the line between "Creative" and "Cheeeeeeeeeese". If you absolutely need to hot wire the system with something creative I think thats a good indication the system is fubarred.

Its also something that is VERY fixable within a scenario: simply list which obstacles block line of sight. Even the DM can spell that out in advance by saying "these are squiggly lines, it means line of sight is blocked" Or perhaps something listed in the scenario explicitly calling out other creative solutions (since some DM's seem to dislike them)

I think half the point of a chase scene is to have something where the situation isn't resolved by the archer stuffing someone full or arrows or the wizard nuking it from orbit.

The rules around line of sight during a chase scene are pretty vague, which leads to a lot of table variation

Scarab Sages 4/5

I've seen chase scenes at different tiers play out very differently.

Tier 1-2 is going to have the most difficult time with chases, but as characters level up, they have additional resources available to them.

Mechanically, the chase rules are about 2 things: Skill point allocation and movement speed. Since we cant do much about our skill point allocation at the table, the next option is to boost our movement speed. Many people forget that you get a bonus to your skill checks for every 10' of movement you have over 30 feet.

Fly, Haste and Expeditious Retreat are all viable options and give significant bonus' to any skill check throughout the chase seen. A flying and hasted character should see just about any skill check as trivial.

The Exchange 5/5

are any new scenarios being written with the Chase Mechanics in them?
No?
Sounds like a fix to me.

;)

Unless the PCs get themselves into a situation where an NPC is running away and the judge decides....
to go Off-the-Rails.

5/5

nosig wrote:

are any new scenarios being written with the Chase Mechanics in them?

No?
Sounds like a fix to me.

;)

Unless the PCs get themselves into a situation where an NPC is running away and the judge decides....
off the rails chase mechanics.

As much as you and I don't tend to agree, on this point we do agree... n fixed that link for ya

The Exchange 5/5

Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
nosig wrote:

are any new scenarios being written with the Chase Mechanics in them?

No?
Sounds like a fix to me.

;)

Unless the PCs get themselves into a situation where an NPC is running away and the judge decides....
off the rails chase mechanics.

As much as you and I don't tend to agree, on this point we do agree... n fixed that link for ya

thanks!

and I find often we tend to agree. Really... (are we disagreeing again?)

Grand Lodge 4/5

I think a creative solution or players helping one another works. I had one player with a very strong melee type say 'I'm going to 'Mongo' the out of control horse' (IE..KO it with his 28+ strength) and another who simply said. "I'm waiting by the wall and boosting folks over.

I try to encourage players to be creative. Had one player color spray a Celish tea party to catch up with the running away target (he nearly drown in the wading pool though) and another who slapped a communal airwalk on the 'slow/unagile' folks from a scroll.


nosig wrote:

are any new scenarios being written with the Chase Mechanics in them?

No?
Sounds like a fix to me.

;)

Unless the PCs get themselves into a situation where an NPC is running away and the judge decides....
to go Off-the-Rails.

Nice link, I see there are others that have had problems with Chases. Helpful information to see how people handle chases.

5/5

nosig wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
nosig wrote:

are any new scenarios being written with the Chase Mechanics in them?

No?
Sounds like a fix to me.

;)

Unless the PCs get themselves into a situation where an NPC is running away and the judge decides....
off the rails chase mechanics.

As much as you and I don't tend to agree, on this point we do agree... n fixed that link for ya

thanks!

and I find often we tend to agree. Really... (are we disagreeing again?)

There are times where I don't even agree with myself (although Baird actually argues with himself in forum threads on different poster names... coocoo if you ask me)... but nah ... we agree alot ... just use different words.

Lantern Lodge 3/5

I happen to love the chase scenes. I think they add a very fun element to the game. Not all characters will always be good at them, but I don't always need to be the winner of every encounter of every session.


Lormyr wrote:
I happen to love the chase scenes. I think they add a very fun element to the game. Not all characters will always be good at them, but I don't always need to be the winner of every encounter of every session.

I'm of the opinion it should always be a possibility myself. Chases are good at predestining who is going to be good or bad. Sorry Mr Paladin, no skill points, no game. Go get coffee and sit this out while the summoner flies across the map on his flying polar bear off doom. Skill point walls aren't always the best design.

The Exchange 5/5

I often run skill monkey PCs. I need to say that to start in this, because of what I am going to say next...
.
(in case you couldn't tell from my earlier posts) -
I hate the way the chase mechanics work. I would avoid scenarios if there were warning labels that said "this adventure uses the chase mechanics". Really.

Now that I have everyone all defensive, if you are still reading, here's why I hate them so much. They make the game into a game of individuals. Each player will have had to have a PC able to pass each "test" alone, or THAT PLAYER fails. So, you have winners and losers at the table, the players win or loose the chase as individuals. It might not seem like it sometimes, and good teams can overcome this... but it feels like we should sit at the table and say, "Ok, we got a knowledge expert, a face, a tank, a medic... wait, who's our 'chaser'? Got to have someone in case there's a chase in this...".

In all the games I have seen with chases, not once do we end up with the "hazard" that can be passed by one of your teammates (unless the judge allows the players to "get creative"... and at the tables I've been at that has never happened). The Bard in the party can get past the guards - but cannot talk them into letting the rest of the party by. The Rogue can bypass the lock on the gate - but it's locked for the next PC. Can the first guy to the barbed wire fall on it, so everyone else can run over him? No. You're running the course by yourself.

Yes - I know the judge can "modify" the adventure, and that good judges will (and should! that's what makes them good judges). But, quite honestly, not all judges are good. Some (like me) are only average. We try to run it as written, so that we don't cheapen the experience for the entire community. Bad judges will... be bad judges ('nuff said on that).

RPGs are group games, games that foster the concept of "the party", a "team of heros" or just "a fellowship". The chase mechanics ... just don't. At least not as I have seen them run in PFS (as a player, I have played all the current scenarios with chases, all with different judges).

IMHO - I think "chases" are an important part of the game (of all adventure stories). If we had chase mechanics - even in a card form - that gave an outline of a hazard or obstical to overcome, but did not tie passing that hazard to two skill check DCs, judges could do what good judges always do, have always done. Tell the story, adapt to the PCs as part of that story, and "Be Creative!".

gets down off of soap box, and heads for shelter before people start shooting

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