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Bob: Im travelling to a con over east (in Melb Vic) because I
A) Like the guys gaming there
B) Need a holiday from work
C) Am hoping to get more access to 7-11 scenarios (which rarely run locally)
I am not going in the likelihood I will get a boon (boons were given out last time I was there , but in a random roll on each table sense... luck despises me so never win the random roll).
Like you, the issue of entitlement from some players does surprise me.
A Good case in point was a few years ago when i was speaking to someone who had come home from Gencon. (2010?). They kept telling me about all the 'swag' they had picked up.. splat book for this, lanyard that and so on. At no point did they ever mention how the scenarios had gone or what character they had played. For me that would be the first thing I would have blurted out in a conversation.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Yeah, working a Con is not really a vacation. Even though its doing something you love, you aren't just there for your own personal entertainment.Something I strongly disagree with. Why "work" a convention if it isn't fun and a break from your daily life? Is that not the definition of a vacation?
va·ca·tion
vāˈkāSHən,və-/Submit
noun
1. an extended period of recreation, esp. one spent away from home or in traveling.I've done the whole "GM 5 days straight" thing at Gen Con (not quite like Todd Morgan, but that dude's insane). At the end of it I was exhausted, in pain, and swearing I'd never do it again. Will I do it again? Probably not, but in the end I still had fun. It was still a vacation and a great chance to see my friends and meet new people. I still remember Steve Miller's paladin playing at my table in the last slot in Among the Dead. Hadn't met Steve before that day. So very glad I did.
My friends and I tier 1 GM'd at GenCon last year, and it was unequivocally one of the best trips of my life.
GMing for new folks is challenging, exhausting, and a physical drain--but hanging out with Baird, Brock, Todd, Thursty, and everyone else after the slots each night made it so much better. It's definitely not the same as a "laying in the hammock on a tropical island" vacation, but it's still a great way to pass the time. I won't be missing it this year, or the foreseeable future. That's how great it was.
And volunteering to GM is what made the trip possible. We couldn't afford airfare, badges, and a hotel. Having to just pay for just the flight and the food make going to GenCon possible for me, even if I have to budget the rest of my year around it. And now that I know not to go to that breakfast place around the corner, next year can only be better!
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And there is a big difference between going to a con and volunteering. The implication of going to a Con in your A, B, C was to go for the carrot. Obviously volunteering at a Con should offer special rewards. I assumed that went without saying, just like that the majority of people that go to Cons and Events do not volunteer or run them.
And without con only, gm only race boons, what draws the volunteer?
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Personally, I've only got me to Gen Con, Paizo Con, Winter Fantasy and Origins back in the LG days, Gamicon, GameHole Con, and Con if the North as a tier one or more.I personally have no expectations. I'd do it with or without a boon.
I do, however, understand the draw of boons for those who volunteer not so altruistically. I love GMing. I truly enjoy GMing at cons and meeting new folk, seeing old friends, as Bob stated.
But I understand the draw of rewards.
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Personally, I've only got me to Gen Con, Paizo Con, Winter Fantasy and Origins back in the LG days, Gamicon, GameHole Con, and Con if the North as a tier one or more.I personally have no expectations. I'd do it with or without a boon.
I do, however, understand the draw of boons for those who volunteer not so altruistically. I love GMing. I truly enjoy GMing at cons and meeting new folk, seeing old friends, as Bob stated.
But I understand the draw of rewards.
I like to think that the PFS community is good enough that most people would go to a con for the experience like you or I would. For the more mercenary minded there are already rewards for DMing and volunteering like free or reduced entrance fee and accommodation if you are really hardcore about it.
I want to know how many people actually DM at cons only for the boon. I really don't like the idea. Do me it is even worse than people DMing only to farm scenario boons for their characters and just leads to mediocre DMs and tables tossed off just to get the shiny thing and we should be discouraging it whenever possible.
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I'd love regional events. I love to go to Con's. I love to travel and inject money into an area while participating in my hobby.
However, Paizo needs to give me a reason to go to a con, because as it stands with the current system, I can play at home and judge and never have to travel, and it's BORING.Winter Fantasy is coming next month, and to me that was one of the 3 Cons I go to every year. Last year I was more than excited because of Bonekeep. This year they will not have Bonekeep level 3, and so I wont go.
That means that I won't inject a little over a thousand dollars into the economy of that Area and convention. (Between dealer purchases, gas, food, lodging, cost of con, cost of the bar etc.)
It would be fantastic if there would be Battle Interactives, special con only scenario's and more. I wouldn't mind going and spending money on paizo product to make this happen.
I'd love to go and see some friends I havent seen in forever, but for a limited amount of play opportunities and nothing unique for the offering, why expend the money? If they had regional events, I'd have a reason to go, a reason to travel out of state and engage people and it would be awesome.
#longingforlg
This exactly.
I also mulled over WF...but a local gameday had some more interesting stuff...so I'm staying home.
I don't view local games as boring but something new and exclusive is always better.
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Personally, I've only got me to Gen Con, Paizo Con, Winter Fantasy and Origins back in the LG days, Gamicon, GameHole Con, and Con if the North as a tier one or more.I personally have no expectations. I'd do it with or without a boon.
I do, however, understand the draw of boons for those who volunteer not so altruistically. I love GMing. I truly enjoy GMing at cons and meeting new folk, seeing old friends, as Bob stated.
But I understand the draw of rewards.
I like to think that the PFS community is good enough that most people would go to a con for the experience like you or I would. For the more mercenary minded there are already rewards for DMing and volunteering like free or reduced entrance fee and accommodation if you are really hardcore about it.
I want to know how many people actually DM at cons only for the boon. I really don't like the idea. Do me it is even worse than people DMing only to farm scenario boons for their characters and just leads to mediocre DMs and tables tossed off just to get the shiny thing and we should be discouraging it whenever possible.
Please don't get what I said wrong ... I don't look at conventions now with a mercenary tone ... I will still altruistically volunteer my time .. I'm looking at Gencon already for this year and trying to decide what I want to do and have an idea mulling in my bunny brain. But I will be there volunteering my time so that others can game.
I'm not doing it for the boons ... I'm doing it to grow the game that I love. I'm doing it because I love seeing people have a good time. I'm doing it so that we might be able to draw in that one person that has wanted to play but been afraid to try.
A convention the size of Gencon though takes TONS of volunteers, if a few of those are there purely for the mercenary aspect (hotel room, badge, boon etc) then I'm ok with that ... If you have issues that someone else is not altruistically volunteering so that you can have a good time; that sounds like more of a you (general) issue than a them issue to me.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Ok, let's talk for a minute about what I got as a Tier 1 GM at GenCon (prices estimated):
1) GenCon Badge Admission - ~$50
2) 1/4th of a hotel room - ~$150
3) A free copy of Mythic Adventures - ~$40
4) 4 free scenarios that I did not have previously - $16
5) $10 Paizo store credit for each table I ran - $80
6) Not having to pay for an event ticket for each event that I GMmed - $40
7) Grippli Boon - No set value
8) The opportunity to GM for a wide variety of unique players - No set value
9) The opportunity to meet a lot of fantastic GMs and learn from their style - No set value
10) Copy of the Core Rulebook that I won through the wheel - $40
11) Opportunity to meet the author of two of my favorite scenarios - No set value
Total value of tangibles: $416
I'm all for giving GMs shinies. Really, I am. But, considering that they are spending this on EVERY Tier 1 GM....I think that we should count our blessings that Paizo is so generous.
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Ok, let's talk for a minute about what I got as a Tier 1 GM at GenCon (prices estimated):
1) GenCon Badge Admission - ~$50
2) 1/4th of a hotel room - ~$150
3) A free copy of Mythic Adventures - ~$40
4) 4 free scenarios that I did not have previously - $16
5) $10 Paizo store credit for each table I ran - $80
6) Not having to pay for an event ticket for each event that I GMmed - $40
7) Grippli Boon - No set value
8) The opportunity to GM for a wide variety of unique players - No set value
9) The opportunity to meet a lot of fantastic GMs and learn from their style - No set value
10) Copy of the Core Rulebook that I won through the wheel - $40
11) Opportunity to meet the author of two of my favorite scenarios - No set valueTotal value of tangibles: $416
I'm all for giving GMs shinies. Really, I am. But, considering that they are spending this on EVERY Tier 1 GM....I think that we should count our blessings that Paizo is so generous.
I would estimate more for the hotel room ..
but I agree .. the company wouldn't have to be this nice .. and give so many things to the GMs. I'm grateful that they do and will continue to support them at conventions.
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I think what we have here is at its very base an Idea Rooted into what Living Greyhawk did
back in that Campaign you had Modules broken into Several categories
CORE
Meta-Region
Region
CORE - were playable by everyone
Meta-Regional - 5 Meta regions Each consisting of 5-7 regions- Meta regional Scenarios were playable by anyone in the meta region
Region - the smallest Area's - only playable while physically Located within the region (e.g. Nyrond could only play Nyrond inside Utah, Arizona, and Southern California)
I personally am in favor of this Idea for the following Reasons
1)Campaign and Community growth- I'm not dissing on online play I love it and use it often - but there is defiantly a difference between online, and sitting down at a table with guys from all over the world, I have yet to make it to PaizoCon so I cant personally say anything as to how it feels there and if it's comparable but we enjoyed the ties we created with people from Colorado
2)Varied flavor - there was a very different flavor from when we played in Utah vs. when we traveled to Colorado to Play in County of Urnst, by the time we got involved Utah had already had its big finale so we didn't experience it 1st hand - but we experienced Colorado's and wow - 7 years later, were still talking about it.
3) Inter-actives - these were the big draw, to be personally invested in shaping a region. Inter-actives were run once and once only (IIRC) what happened in these Shaped events of the region for years to come
PFS has its own versions - the multi table specials and the Grand Convocation, the big difference was that the Inter-actives dealt with Specific Issues that were on a more Local Scale rather than a Global scale. I know of 1 interactive that was run in 3 states simultaneously and the Region Coordinators were on a Multi hour conference Call so that the information displayed was the same in all 3 States
LFR was as we all know a total Flop and a poor replacement for what LG had been -
for my group personally we loved Traveling to other regions to play there .. meet those people and experience those other regions -
LFR had no reason to travel to Major or Minor Conventions since everything was available everywhere - all the time ....
Organized play just didn't feel the same anymore
yes there were other issues as well but Im sticking to Relevant points only
PFS has done a good Job of Creating the Draw with its Bonekeeps and its SP's but I believe that Regional Scenarios as presented by Kyle Baird would further increase support of Smaller Cons and gamedays by Drawing players from other regions in to meet other players and strengthen the bond of the Community overall
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To be clear, my comments were not focused on the things listed above. It is a community "norm" that, for a major con (GenCon, etc.), the company you volunteer for provides some compensation for your help. I don't think that is what people are referring to. It is more about rewards for merely being present vs. someone who does not attend.
I'm disappointed that there are players who would choose not to attend a regional convention just because it is not offering a certain reward, whether it be product, race boon, or whatever. And I don't think that Paizo should feel compelled to provide said reward simply to entice that player to attend. It is a great bonus that they do what they do and IMHO they do it to reward their dedicated customers. I don't think that players with that mindset are the ones spending their money on products in an amount that justifies the value of the free product.
And to say that you deserve, or are entitled to, or whatever you want to call it, the same reward/bonus/prize that an attendee received because of some belief of fairness is, IMHO, just ridiculous.
Attending a convention as a player is really no different than most other types of vacations. When you plan a trip to Disneyworld or an amusement park, or skiing, or whatever, you do it with the expectation that you will get a bunch of free stuff from the destination other than what you pay for. Sure, you might be looking for value (maximum fun, minimum cost), I doubt generally that you refuse to go because the hotel doesn't have a comp breakfast. The anticipated enjoyment of the trip is the driving force. And you certainly don't expect to get a free shirt just because your next-door-neighbor went to Disney and you didn't/couldn't.
But, of course that is just my opinion.
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LFR had no reason to travel to Major or Minor Conventions since everything was available everywhere - all the time ....
Organized play just didn't feel the same anymore
Not entirely true, though more-or-less effectively so, especially in the first couple of years of the LFR campaign.
A couple of years in, LFR began doing Battle Interactives (which used the "ADCP" code, that had been originally devised for "Adventuring Company" adventures); they've generally done one or two BIs per year since around 2010, with one premiering at DDXP/Winter Fantasy, and one premiering at Origins. Most (if not all) of their BIs have been made available for play at other conventions, but cons do need to be able to have a minimum number of tables to support running them. In any case, they're not available for home play, or retail play (unless the retail location can swing a big enough turnout).
However, that makes a grand total of perhaps 6 or 7 LFR adventures that don't fit the "can play it anywhere" descriptor, and all of those are two-round, combat-intensive BIs.
When LFR started, WotC decided that all LFR adventures were going to be "canon" for the Realms, which meant that every adventure was going to have to be vetted by WotC's own editors. That set-up made doing "regional-only" adventures essentially impossible, as the old regional set-up that LG had allowed the regional adventures to be developed and edited in-region -- as I understand it, LG regionals weren't edited by RPGA/WotC employees.
WotC realized that the regional structure of LG was labor-intensive, database-intensive, and relied on a very large volunteer network. When they set up LFR, they made a very conscious decision (for good or for ill) to *not* do things that way. I'd been involved in the RPGA for a number of years at that point, and it seemed to me that, by the time of LFR and 4E, WotC's heart was not really in supporting a large-scale OP campaign any longer. It seemed to me that they did an OP campaign for 4E because it was expected by a certain segment of players, but they weren't going to put more effort into it than was absolutely needed.
Finally, the organization that was the RPGA, during LG's days (and before) really doesn't exist anymore. LFR is now technically part of WotC's Organized Play group, which has a definite focus on retail support for D&D these days, and very little direct focus on conventions.
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I guess the question is, if Paizo started a regional-specific scenario program would it have a meaningful impact on convention attendance? Or more importantly, would it cause an increase in revenue? After-all they are in business to make money and PFS is a marketing tool.
Would having regional scenario cause people to attend more cons or just different ones? Most players have a finite budget for conventions. Does it really matter if I just go to [local]con vs. [distant]con? What's the point? Is it just to cater to the extremely small minority of players that have the financial power to attend any con anywhere?
To do a regional program would most likely cause an increase in develop costs and Paizo would have to see, at least, an equal increase in revenue to justify it. And I would submit that they would need to see a marginal (or more) profit to make the effort worth it.
Just wondering, what is the ROI?
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Personal opinion..
Leave regional stuff alone ... to be honest I think that the people that want to travel do, and those that don't don't ... I doubt that we would see enough of a significant increase in travel or regional specific stuff to warrant any increase in cost/delay in development that it could mean.
Leave conventions alone ... in order for large conventions to get the volunteer support they need to have GMs and HQ staff there are going to have to be rewards; you (general) can fight it, but it'll be like running into a brick wall (or a spouse) over and over again, it's not going to change.
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Does 13 tables at a convention really pick up more players than 13 tables spread out in game stores?
That might be an imponderable question; it probably depends on the nature of the convention.
Is the convention in question a larger gaming convention, that offers more than just PFS? If so, it seems possible that you might gain new PFS players from people who are initially drawn to the con by other games, and decide (for whatever reason) to also try PFS.
Is the convention primarily (or solely) offering PFS? If so, I imagine that they don't do very much to attract new PFS players, as the attendees are largely going to be self-selecting for already being interested in (and, very likely, already players of) PFS.
(Parenthetically, the "small-to-mid-sized" gaming conventions that the old LG players here are remembering with fondness in this thread were often the latter type, IME. If they offered anything other than LG, it was likely other organized-play campaigns.)
