The most powerful Monk?


Advice

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Tels wrote:


A Dragon/Snake/Tiger style build is better as your attacks don't rely on the enemy attacking you first.

Panther Style relies on the enemy actually attacking you, and, like gnomersy said, once it's done once or twice, that won't happen anymore. Drangon/Snake/Tiger lets you get your full attack, and then if the enemy attacks back, you gain additional attacks.

Hmmm that's fair although if you go into MoMS your full attack is just a normal 3/4 BAB set up which means you're probably on par with 2 handed weapon Rogue damage, no?


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gnomersy wrote:
Tels wrote:


A Dragon/Snake/Tiger style build is better as your attacks don't rely on the enemy attacking you first.

Panther Style relies on the enemy actually attacking you, and, like gnomersy said, once it's done once or twice, that won't happen anymore. Drangon/Snake/Tiger lets you get your full attack, and then if the enemy attacks back, you gain additional attacks.

Hmmm that's fair although if you go into MoMS your full attack is just a normal 3/4 BAB set up which means you're probably on par with 2 handed weapon Rogue damage, no?

Yes and no, because you'll be getting more attacks by virtue of Snake Style.

Remember, in order for Panther style to trigger, you need to move through an enemies area, and they need to attack you. While cool in theory, the fact is you can only provoke one attack of opportunity by moving through an enemies area.

For example, take a Giant with 10 ft. reach. If you decided to double move up to, and then run a circle around the guy, even if he has 15 AoO, he can still make only one of them against you.

What this means is, if you use Panther Style against an enemy, you are trading your potential full attack, for a single attack, while he is simply spending an AoO that he might, otherwise, not have made. You are, in fact, increasing the DPR of the enemy against you.

Panther Style only, sort of, works if there are lots of enemies fro you to just run through each round, provoking attacks and making retaliatory strikes. This is a major flaw as you are spreading the damage a round, instead of focusing it on one enemy.

For instance, if you have 5 enemies, and it takes 2 rounds of full attacks (say 3 attacks with haste), then this means it takes an average of 6 attacks to bring down each enemy. Using Panther Style, this means it would take 6 rounds to bring them all down, rather than 10 rounds you would full attacking. Sounds great right?

No, not really. Because during those 6 rounds, all 5 of the enemies are attacking, while as during those 10 rounds, you are steadily reducing their attacks. After 2 rounds, there are now only 4 enemies attacking using a full attack, while using Panther Style, there are still 5 enemies attacking.

Conversely, if you were using Snake Style, you may be getting an extra attack or two each round because they missed, and you have the chance to deflect one of their attacks each round. This means, in 2 rounds, you're making between 8 and 10 attacks, letting you drop the enemy a lot quicker and moving additional attacks onto other enemies.

As a GM, and player, you have to be able to look at abilities and separate them into two categories: PC abilities, and NPC abilities. Panther Style is a great NPC ability as it lets them divvy up the damage across the whole party, instead of just on one enemy. It also lets them make the battlefield more dynamic and makes it harder for the martials to get their full attacks on them. Panther Style is a great feat chain for enemies as it forces a running battle meaning the monsters will get more attacks on the party. However, it will become obvious fairly quickly what the monster is doing and the Party will stop making AoO against him.

That is the other major flaw of Panther. Panther only works if the opponent attacks you first. If he doesn't make an AoO, then you don't get to attack. Panther is kind of an active style, you have to force conditions which triggers it, while Snake Style simply triggers any time someone misses you in melee, regardless of the reason why.


Bomanz wrote:

You cannot convince some people that Monks are fine. They have it in their head (and its obvious in the comparisons to fighters/barbarians/rangers) that being a Monk is less "powerful" or less "optimized" than what they deem to be a comparable class.

No amount of "but in this game I saw" will ever convince them.

No amount of "why are you soloing a CR20 critter and why are you doing it in an open, featureless plain with no cover or small enclosed areas" will ever convince them.

Just look at every OTHER monk thread and you will see the same few people, who regardless of build or evidence, continually decry how much suckier a monk is than a fighter.

Give it up already. The build doesn't matter. They cannot be convinced that the Monk doesn't need a complete rebuild to their specifications. Countless other people who have played and enjoyed the class have opinions that do not matter to these people.

So the Monk can't solo a lvl 20 Demon or Devil or whatever in the same short time that a BSF or CAGM Barbarian can.

Who give a s*** when people still enjoy playing them.

If you don't like a Monk and want to build a "better" character that CAN solo the Baelor in 2 rounds then do that instead.

This endless back and forth and unbudging/unwavering hardon for Monk suckitude is old, quick.

And when you ultimately distill the argument against why Monks "suck" so bad, it all comes down to "because you need system mastery to build one effectively" or some other garbage opinion.

As if a poorly built, unoptimized Wizard with a lousy spell book and poorly built spell book stands a chance. As if a fighter with badly chosen feat trees and unoptimized gear is any different.

Now....GET OFF MY LAWN!!!

The argument actually boils down to the other side refusing to accept the reality that the class is actually mechanically inferior. So much so that the designers have said that they wish they could redesign the class. I get that misrepresenting the things that the other side said is a valid way to "win" an argument on the internet. I get that special story time monks/fighters/rogues do just as well as casters because the DM treats every character like a beautiful and unique snow flake instead of running the game according RULES of the game. I find you opinion to be the real garbage opinion. You ignore or belittle anything that doesn't support your predetermined opinion and for the record. I'LL STAND ON YOUR LAWN FOR AS LONG AS I DAMN WELL PLEASE.


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proftobe wrote:
Bomanz wrote:
Now....GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
I'LL STAND ON YOUR LAWN FOR AS LONG AS I DAMN WELL PLEASE.

Not sure why he wants us off his Lawn, I mean, I thought I was doing a good job fertilizing it...


Dark Immortal wrote:
@dabbler the +30 was a typo and should have been +20.

That explains a lot, although I think the +30 was in some cases closer to the discrepancy figure than +20.

Dark Immortal wrote:
I also should add that fighter weapon enhancements are a main advantage for accuracy with them. They will receive an additional +1-2 from weapon enhancements and another + 1-2 from weapon training. More at higher levels. On average, at mid levels I determine that a fighter should be about 4 points ahead of a monk interns of accuracy.

More than that, I'm afraid:

MAD = 0-2
FoB = 2
Weapon Training = 1-2
Feats = 0-1
That means 3-7 points behind that the monk sits, and that's not a good place to be.

Dark Immortal wrote:
Not every optimized fighter gets weapon focus, greater weapon focus, starts with 20 str and upgrades only that stat to the exclusion of all others, while only getting pure +1 enhancement bonuses on their weapons etc, etc.

Why wouldn't the fighter take Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus? I agree you won't see those in all builds, but you will in the majority of them. The fighter may not start with 20 strength, but he's more likely to have a high strength than the monk is because he has to worry about less stats.

Dark Immortal wrote:
Many of the arguments of fighter over monk are optimization arguments where the fighter turns into an elderly synthesis summoner with 7's and 5's in every physical stat, etc.

LOL, yes, it does seem to come down to that. But the point here is that if you do not compare equivelant levels of optimization what can you compare? Also, when push comes to shove the fighter is a lot easier to optimize than the monk is. He's straight forward and intuitive, he does one thing and does it well. The monk is much less so.

Dark Immortal wrote:
I don't think people generally make super narrow, almost non dimensional bland characters with absolutely no other hint of depth.

And this is the problem: I have found that optimizing to the max for the system is exactly what you have to do with a monk to make him as effective (more often than not, not quite as effective) as other classes. That's why I want the class fixed.

Dark Immortal wrote:
Even among optimizers we usually consider having at least something besides a more narrow than narrow focus.

Thing is, with a fighter the class has a narrow focus built in - it's one reason that it's a "gold standard" for comparing combat classes.

Dark Immortal wrote:
Every enemy won't automatically function like a hyper efficient theory crafted optimized character would either. In fact, few enemies ever do. They aren't machines designed with programming to do absolutely one thing. This is why diplomacy, intimidate, combat maneuvers and the like exist within the game.

No they won't, it's true. Unfortunately the monk isn't so great at the other options, either.

Dark Immortal wrote:
A 'real' fighter vs an optimized monk is a much more narrow gap as the fighter actually cares about things like ac, hp, maybe having an initiative that matters so the rare murder machine doesn't kill the wizard on round 1 anyway before the fighter can act. Some fighters recognize will saves as a weakness and actually wisely invest some...

I'm sorry if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick here, but it seems to me that what you mean by "real" fighter is a non-optimized fighter, or a fighter trying to be something the fighter wasn't meant to be. I don't buy that. People play fighters to fight. I find that fighters usually have more than adequate AC, HP, and the like even if you aren't optimizing for them - certainly they come out ahead in HP on the monk, but probably behind on AC.

However, the problem in your assertion is that of "offence is defence" in the system: if you take down the enemy fast enough, it doesn't matter that you have weaker defences because that enemy has insufficient time to exploit them. On the flip side, if your defences are impressive but the enemy has ample time to overcome them because you have insufficient offence, they are not really worth that much. Worse, you have to consider that this is a team you are part of, where every round the enemy is alive is a round he has to hurt the rest of the party who do not have your defences.

Bomanz wrote:
You cannot convince some people that Monks are fine. They have it in their head (and its obvious in the comparisons to fighters/barbarians/rangers) that being a Monk is less "powerful" or less "optimized" than what they deem to be a comparable class.

The monk is a combat class, we compare it to other combat classes. What else would we compare it too?

Bomanz wrote:
No amount of "but in this game I saw" will ever convince them.

Because they too play games with monks, and see how they perform - badly.

Bomanz wrote:
No amount of "why are you soloing a CR20 critter and why are you doing it in an open, featureless plain with no cover or small enclosed areas" will ever convince them.

But we do not do just that, we do:

What can the monk bring to the party that another class cannot?
What can the monk do to stop the {insert nasty thing here} killing his less ably defensive friends?
Can the monk bring as much to the party as X class?
...and many other examples that seem to have escaped your attention.

Bomanz wrote:
Just look at every OTHER monk thread and you will see the same few people, who regardless of build or evidence, continually decry how much suckier a monk is than a fighter.

We point out that the monk is mechanically weak as a combat class. If the fact that we crunch the numbers and do the math and substantiate it with examples is a problem for you, too bad. If the fact that we have as many bad anecdotes as you have good ones, if not more, too bad. Even the devs have admitted that the monk is a weak class and needs improvement.

Bomanz wrote:
Give it up already. The build doesn't matter.

Yep, we've proved our point with just about all of them.

Bomanz wrote:
They cannot be convinced that the Monk doesn't need a complete rebuild to their specifications. Countless other people who have played and enjoyed the class have opinions that do not matter to these people.

Facts > opinions.

Don't get me wrong, if you are loving monks and having fun playing them, that's cool. Clearly you do not need an improved monk. But if you got one, it wouldn't spoil your fun would it?

Bomanz wrote:
So the Monk can't solo a lvl 20 Demon or Devil or whatever in the same short time that a BSF or CAGM Barbarian can.

Glad to hear it clearly stated.

Bomanz wrote:
Who give a s*** when people still enjoy playing them.

If they are happy, great. But if your happiness with playing a monk depends on the monk being a hero in the company of heroes, able to contribute as well as the rest of the party rather than only helping in corner cases, well then the monk clearly needs improvement.

Bomanz wrote:
If you don't like a Monk and want to build a "better" character that CAN solo the Baelor in 2 rounds then do that instead.

I'd settle for doing it in three. I want to be Bruce Lee, or Caine, I want to be the mystic philosopher-warrior who's hands and feet are his weapons and with them he is as dangerous as a skilled swordsman. Problem is, the mechanics for the monk as is do not really support this.

Bomanz wrote:
This endless back and forth and unbudging/unwavering hardon for Monk suckitude is old, quick.

You think we enjoy the fact that our favourite class has crappy mechanics? Not a bit. We love the class, we just want it to live up to it's hype.

Bomanz wrote:
And when you ultimately distill the argument against why Monks "suck" so bad, it all comes down to "because you need system mastery to build one effectively" or some other garbage opinion.

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. You need very precisely cherry-picked feats, gear, stats, and everything else to make a monk work well at what he is meant to do - situations which basically do not exist in real games, ironically enough. You don't for just about every other class in the game.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it garbage.

Bomanz wrote:
As if a poorly built, unoptimized Wizard with a lousy spell book and poorly built spell book stands a chance. As if a fighter with badly chosen feat trees and unoptimized gear is any different.

It's a fact that you can intuitively build an effective A. N. Other class pretty easily. It's a fact that the monk requires a greater level of system mastery to make work, and this reduces the options available for flavour. It's been proven many times, even if you weren't paying attention.

At the end of the day, some people play monks and do not have a problem in their games. Good for them. A lot of people play monks and get exasperated and give up on them, or don't get anything like the pleasure they expected from them, and that's not good. The developers themselves have stated that the monk is a weak class. So would a stronger monk spoil the fun of the first group? Not a bit. Would a stronger monk improve the fun of the second group? Yes, a lot. So is there anything to be LOST in there being a stronger monk? No, nothing.

So what, exactly, is your problem with the monk being improved?


Tels wrote:


Yes and no, because you'll be getting more attacks by virtue of Snake Style.

Remember, in order for Panther style to trigger, you need to move through an enemies area, and they need to attack you. While cool in theory, the fact is you can only provoke one attack of opportunity by moving through an enemies area.

For example, take a Giant with 10 ft. reach. If you decided to double move up to, and then run a circle around the guy, even if he has 15 AoO, he can still make only one of them against you.

What this means is, if you use Panther Style against an enemy, you are trading your potential full attack, for a single attack, while he is simply spending an AoO that he might, otherwise, not have made. You are, in fact, increasing the DPR of the enemy against you.

Panther Style only, sort of, works if there are lots of enemies fro you to just run through each round, provoking attacks and making retaliatory strikes. This is a major flaw as you are spreading the damage a round, instead of focusing it on one enemy.

For instance, if you have 5 enemies, and it takes 2 rounds of full attacks (say 3 attacks with haste), then this means it takes an average of 6 attacks to bring down each enemy. Using Panther Style, this means it would take 6 rounds to bring them all down, rather than 10 rounds you would full attacking. Sounds great right?

No, not really. Because during those 6 rounds, all 5 of the enemies are...

Right but that's the thing even Snake style relies on the enemy wanting to hit you and MoMS makes you a less effective fighter if you go 100% into it which encourages the enemy to ignore you, I just think you'd be better off going into something that puts out more hurt to encourage them to try to respond instead of going all the way down MoMS for 15 levels or so.

Sovereign Court

Incoming Thread Lock in 3, 2, 1.... ;)

Now seriously. I'd like to say that I think the Monk is inferior to a lot of other classes. But that doesn't mean I'm not having fun playing one (if you call a Barbarian 1 / Martial Artist Monk X build still a Monk; I know I do). Granted, my character is only level 4, so I don't have a lot of experience with how they play out at higher level.

But, Dabbler has made a good point, I think. Before I started playing my character, I spent a long, long time tweaking how the character will play out. More so than any other character I have ever played. To make a Monk work does require quite a bit of System Mastery to play. It's unfortunate, but that's the way the class was built. Probably due to it being designed to remain 3.5 compatible, but that's just a guess, so I can't really say.

And remember folks: we're all passionate about the Monk. Why else would we be posting in a thread about Monks? :)

Now, as to the most powerful Monk, the best I have is the build I have for PFS. I posted a thread about it here.

May not be the most powerful, but it's what I have gotten so far (and for the confines of PFS). Still thinking about wielding a Temple Sword instead of a Sansetsukon, grabbing a Whip, and taking Mobility/Spring Attack at level 7 to try to expand my options. Haven't decided quite yet.

Silver Crusade

Panther claw+parry gives me a number of free attacks based on my wisdom modifier, I can run around. Provoke. Standard attack At level 1 that's 4 (say wis of 16) attacks at full bab. Also, they happen before the AoO if you have parry.

That aside iirc snake style is a swift /immediate action so you arue limited in the number of times you gain those extra attacks.

You take 8 levels of monk first (where 3/4bab doesn't shown as much) and then grab 3 levels of brawler for +1/+3 on unarmed. This alone nets you back flurry BaB.


rorek55 wrote:

Panther claw+parry gives me a number of free attacks based on my wisdom modifier, I can run around. Provoke. Standard attack At level 1 that's 4 (say wis of 16) attacks at full bab. Also, they happen before the AoO if you have parry.

That aside iirc snake style is a swift /immediate action so you arue limited in the number of times you gain those extra attacks.

You take 8 levels of monk first (where 3/4bab doesn't shown as much) and then grab 3 levels of brawler for +1/+3 on unarmed. This alone nets you back flurry BaB.

The immediate action is for a second attack on top of the one you get as an AoOp.

Anyways making up for flurry BAB isn't winning you anything since it puts you 2 points to hit behind the guy who went Base Monk 8/Brawler 3 and you get two less attacks per round now with snake or panther you can make up for the lack of extra attacks to a degree assuming they want to focus you but the further you go into MoMS the less reasons you give the guy to focus you hence why I really think it was made exclusively for people to dip into.

Silver Crusade

So. Here is a full Pfs build for moms/drunken master/brawler
20pt buy. Human for simplicity

Str:20 16(+2) +2 levels
Dex:12
Con:12
Int:10
Was:18 (+2 levels)
Cha:7
Traits
Iron fist (+1 unarmed damage)
Reactionary

Feats
1-panther style (human), dodge, panther claw (moms)
2-dragon style
3-tiger style
5-power attack
6-tiger pounce
7- power attack
8-
F1-weapon focus unarmed,mobility
10-panther parry
11-monkey style
12-we spec. Unamred.

So without any magic items we have
To hit +16/+11/+6 (With magic items +20 would be easy)

Damage is without magic items
1d10+20 (yay power attack) per hit.


rorek55 wrote:

So. Here is a full Pfs build for moms/drunken master/brawler

20pt buy. Human for simplicity

He has 4 pluses from levels which means he's level 16 and as I understand it PFS cuts out at 12.

His level 1 AC is 15 and he has 9 or 10 HP so chances of him dying in the first few levels is pretty high, his overall hit points are going to stay bad with a 12 Con and a D8 HD so you better pray nobody skilled at fighting shows up.

He took Power Attack once at 5 and once at 7.

And given that common AC benchmarks for a high AC are 20+lvl if he isn't fighting a mook he's aiming at something with a 32ish AC in which case he needs a 12 or better on his best attack assuming magic items.


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rorek55 wrote:

Panther claw+parry gives me a number of free attacks based on my wisdom modifier, I can run around. Provoke. Standard attack At level 1 that's 4 (say wis of 16) attacks at full bab. Also, they happen before the AoO if you have parry.

That aside iirc snake style is a swift /immediate action so you arue limited in the number of times you gain those extra attacks.

You take 8 levels of monk first (where 3/4bab doesn't shown as much) and then grab 3 levels of brawler for +1/+3 on unarmed. This alone nets you back flurry BaB.

No, Panther does not. Panther trades your normal attacks for the ability to run around and provoke attacks. However, after you do this once or twice, enemies will stop attacking you if they have anything above 3 int.

That's the part you aren't getting. If the GM is playing the enemies to be dumber than a bunch of rocks, anything can be a good tactic.

Here's a though, you're running around with Panther Style on, and *Le Gasp* the enemies don't take their Attack of Opportunity. What you have done is wasted your entire round running around like a fool.

The Snake Style guy doesn't have this problem. Say he has the exact same build as you, but uses Snake Style instead of Panther. Guess what happens? He marches up to an enemy, and full attacks. The enemy attacks him back, any attack the enemy misses with, provokes an AoO.

In the case of the Snake Style guy, he sacrifices nothing, and gains everything. See, the enemy can't afford to not attack the Snake Style guy, because the Snake Style user will still be making a full attack. He's in a damned if he does, damned if he doesn't scenario. If he doesn't attack, the Snake Style guy is still going to attack him. If he does attack, the Snake Style guy is going to attack, and possibly gain some AoO.

Not so with the Panther Style guy. The Panther Style guy can have his whole shtick negated by simply not attacking. If this happens, Panther Style has lost his turn, where as the monster has lost nothing.


Tels wrote:


In the case of the Snake Style guy, he sacrifices nothing, and gains everything. See, the enemy can't afford to not attack the Snake Style guy, because the Snake Style user will still be making a full attack. He's in a damned if he does, damned if he doesn't scenario. If he doesn't attack, the Snake Style guy is still going to attack him. If he does attack, the Snake Style guy is going to attack, and possibly gain some AoO.

I agree to an extent but I don't really see a reason to go past 2 levels of MoMS while doing this, you get fuse styles and all of Dragon Style's prereqs are pretty easy to fulfill and the good feats are front loaded on that style while Snake's are pains in the ass which you use bonus feats to bypass.

After that I don't think you gain as much continuing in MoMS as you would getting Barb. levels or Fighter levels, which means he can dump his Wis and use armor instead to get a sizable AC advantage in the early game.

Silver Crusade

rorek55 wrote:

So. Here is a full Pfs build for moms/drunken master/brawler

20pt buy. Human for simplicity

Str:20 16(+2) +2 levels
Dex:12
Con:12
Int:10
Was:18 (+2 levels)
Cha:7
Traits
Iron fist (+1 unarmed damage)
Reactionary

Feats
1-panther style (human), dodge, panther claw (moms)
2-dragon style
3-tiger style
5-power attack
6-tiger pounce
7- power attack
8-
F1-weapon focus unarmed,mobility
10-panther parry
11-monkey style
12-we spec. Unamred.

So without any magic items we have
To hit +16/+11/+6 (With magic items +20 would be easy)

Damage is without magic items
1d10+20 (yay power attack) per hit.

Edit: ignore +2 to wisdom. Swap first power attack with whatever feels right.

Silver Crusade

gnomersy wrote:
rorek55 wrote:

So. Here is a full Pfs build for moms/drunken master/brawler

20pt buy. Human for simplicity

He has 4 pluses from levels which means he's level 16 and as I understand it PFS cuts out at 12.

His level 1 AC is 15 and he has 9 or 10 HP so chances of him dying in the first few levels is pretty high, his overall hit points are going to stay bad with a 12 Con and a D8 HD so you better pray nobody skilled at fighting shows up.

He took Power Attack once at 5 and once at 7.

And given that common AC benchmarks for a high AC are 20+lvl if he isn't fighting a mook he's aiming at something with a 32ish AC in which case he needs a 12 or better on his best attack assuming magic items.

When needed +4 ac from ki and being drunken master he has plenty to use. After first few runs potions of shield/armor add tobthat.

A fighter at level 12

Same stats

To hit +19-20

Two handed damage 2d6+19ish? So yes it has a better to hit. But remeber of the fighter power attacks that comes out of his to hit. Monks comes from ac which ki mitigates when needed.

This aside there are few encounters in which the 20+lvl holds true. Usually its fairly less.

Also. That will save the fighter just failed? The monk made. That fireball the fighter took damage from? The monk didn't.

Silver Crusade

Not to mention the plethoria of extra attacks he will be getting.


rorek55 wrote:
Not to mention the plethoria of extra attacks he will be getting.

He's not getting any extra attacks!


gnomersy wrote:
Tels wrote:


In the case of the Snake Style guy, he sacrifices nothing, and gains everything. See, the enemy can't afford to not attack the Snake Style guy, because the Snake Style user will still be making a full attack. He's in a damned if he does, damned if he doesn't scenario. If he doesn't attack, the Snake Style guy is still going to attack him. If he does attack, the Snake Style guy is going to attack, and possibly gain some AoO.

I agree to an extent but I don't really see a reason to go past 2 levels of MoMS while doing this, you get fuse styles and all of Dragon Style's prereqs are pretty easy to fulfill and the good feats are front loaded on that style while Snake's are pains in the ass which you use bonus feats to bypass.

After that I don't think you gain as much continuing in MoMS as you would getting Barb. levels or Fighter levels, which means he can dump his Wis and use armor instead to get a sizable AC advantage in the early game.

I'm not arguing whether or not continuing on in MoMS is a good idea, I'm trying to point out that Panther Style really isn't that good of a feat chain.

Besides, the idea was to use Dragon/Tiger/and Snake style. Tiger Style is mostly useless except it lets you add the power attack penalty to AC instead of to your attack bonus. Dragon lets you, basically, 2-hand your unarmed strikes, while Snake Style gives you some better defenses and extra attacks.


Tels wrote:


I'm not arguing whether or not continuing on in MoMS is a good idea, I'm trying to point out that Panther Style really isn't that good of a feat chain.

Besides, the idea was to use Dragon/Tiger/and Snake style. Tiger Style is mostly useless except it lets you add the power attack penalty to AC instead of to your attack bonus. Dragon lets you, basically, 2-hand your unarmed strikes, while Snake Style gives you some better defenses and extra attacks.

Ah sorry I probably just got confused when I was reading because you and Rorek have the same icon and well I haven't slept enough. I think the idea with tiger was mostly to get tiger pounce but that doesn't synergize at all with panther style so that's another bit of weirdness.


Tels wrote:


Tiger Style is mostly useless except it lets you add the power attack penalty to AC instead of to your attack bonus. Dragon lets you, basically, 2-hand your unarmed strikes, while Snake Style gives you some better defenses and extra attacks.

Tiger Style also gives you an ersatz of Pounce, since half a monk move on a swift action lets him reach almost any spot his opponent would have moved into.

Actually it could synergize with Panther to give you pounce not only against feeling opponents:
Round 1, you run around the battle field, landing blows to a few opponents (even just one of them) on your way to you initial target.
Then you hit your target. Say it drops either from your blow or from some of your friend's blow any other time during that round.
Round 2: you get a swift action to reach that guy you happened to punch during your Round 1 move, and then you can full-attack on him.
Fun fact: during that move, AoOs you provoke still trigger Panther style.

Not that it makes Panther style a must-have, for reasons you already pointed out, it just gives the Tiger/Panther style some synergy. Especially if you expect fights with lots of mooks.

And you can add Janni Rush to that combo, for double base dice damage on all the punches you land on that Tiger Pounce.
Hell if you're high enough Level in MoM, add some Dragon style too for good damage.


Entilzha wrote:
Now seriously. I'd like to say that I think the Monk is inferior to a lot of other classes. But that doesn't mean I'm not having fun playing one (if you call a Barbarian 1 / Martial Artist Monk X build still a Monk; I know I do). Granted, my character is only level 4, so I don't have a lot of experience with how they play out at higher level.

Low level is the sweet spot for monks, which is why many people do not encounter issues with them if they only play at low level. At 1st level a monk can have a killer AC that appears to make up for their deficiencies, but it's an advantage that rapidly trails off as the other martials gain gold and start wearing more armour.

As to your monk, in an ideal game a pure class should be able to function well as the default, dipping other classes should be something you do for flavour and variety, it should not be essential to the character's power and functioning.

Entilzha wrote:
But, Dabbler has made a good point, I think. Before I started playing my character, I spent a long, long time tweaking how the character will play out. More so than any other character I have ever played. To make a Monk work does require quite a bit of System Mastery to play. It's unfortunate, but that's the way the class was built. Probably due to it being designed to remain 3.5 compatible, but that's just a guess, so I can't really say.

The 3.5 monk had a lot of problems as well, and the Pathfinder monk did make a few steps toward solving them. The problem is that on paper monks are very good defensively, so you do not want them to be as powerful as the other martial characters offensively. The even bigger problem is that the game rewards offence over defence, and the monk baseline isn't even close to the other martials in offence, and in practice those defences are not so hot. Also, Paizo made a lot of changes in isolation - if they had put to together the changes in magic resistance and dimension door with the monk's use of such things in play-tests, they would have most likely written in exceptions to the monk from those changes; if the designer of lay-on-hands had also worked on wholeness of body, it would be a power worth having. As it is, Diamond Soul is as much a nerf as an advantage, Abundant Step carries a feat-tax, while wholeness-of-body is about as much use as drinking a potion.

It's a lot of small problems in isolation that add up to big problems in practice. The quingong monk solved a lot of these smaller problems, but did not address the big ones.

Entilzha wrote:
And remember folks: we're all passionate about the Monk. Why else would we be posting in a thread about Monks? :)

Absolutely. Those of us arguing the monk is weak are not irrational haters or inexperienced newbs, we're gamers with years of experience who have played monks and found they come up short both for the role-play and the optimization stakes.

Sczarni

I disagree with the RP stakes comment dabbler, monks are very versatile in that department.

Sovereign Court

Dabbler wrote:
Low level is the sweet spot for monks, which is why many people do not encounter issues with them if they only play at low level. At 1st level a monk can have a killer AC that appears to make up for their deficiencies, but it's an advantage that rapidly trails off as the other martials gain gold and start wearing more armour.

This is good to know. I guess I'll have to be careful as I gain levels. Hopefully between Shield and Mage Armor my AC won't suck too horribly. (Kudos to you for spelling "armour" correctly ;)

Dabbler wrote:
As to your monk, in an ideal game a pure class should be able to function well as the default, dipping other classes should be something you do for flavour and variety, it should not be essential to the character's power and functioning.

I agree whole heartedly. I didn't dip Barbarian for flavour nor variety. It was a mechanical advantage to help out the Monk's shortcomings. Hopefully I won't have to do that in Pathfinder 2.0 :)

Dabbler wrote:

The 3.5 monk had a lot of problems as well, and the Pathfinder monk did make a few steps toward solving them. The problem is that on paper monks are very good defensively, so you do not want them to be as powerful as the other martial characters offensively. The even bigger problem is that the game rewards offence over defence, and the monk baseline isn't even close to the other martials in offence, and in practice those defences are not so hot. Also, Paizo made a lot of changes in isolation - if they had put to together the changes in magic resistance and dimension door with the monk's use of such things in play-tests, they would have most likely written in exceptions to the monk from those changes; if the designer of lay-on-hands had also worked on wholeness of body, it would be a power worth having. As it is, Diamond Soul is as much a nerf as an advantage, Abundant Step carries a feat-tax, while wholeness-of-body is about as much use as drinking a potion.

It's a lot of small problems in isolation that add up to big problems in practice. The quingong monk solved a lot of these smaller problems, but did not address the big ones.

A lot of great points. Again, I agree with that assessment.

Dabbler wrote:
Absolutely. Those of us arguing the monk is weak are not irrational haters or inexperienced newbs, we're gamers with years of experience who have played monks and found they come up short both for the role-play and the optimization stakes.

Well, at least the optimization aspect. As for Role-Play, not so sure. That would probably be more on the person playing the character than the class (some days, I can't role-play worth a dime. Other days, I'm spot on).

Unless you're talking about Ashiel's optimized Core Rulebook Monk that "works" ;) (The Monk who ended up taking Heavy Armour Proficiency and wore Full Plate IIRC)

Silver Crusade

Tels wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
Not to mention the plethoria of extra attacks he will be getting.
He's not getting any extra attacks!

I disagree free action attacks on anyone thatvAOOs you which they will unless the DM meta games half the time. What intelligent enemy wouldn't attempt to take advantage of the guy taking a drink of mead? Especially since hebhas no armor.

Also you can't use snake and tiger effectively due to the psuedo pounce is a swift action like snake fang.


Snake Fang is an Immediate action, rather than a Swift action, so you should be able to use Tiger and Snake, right?

I took a Look at a Brawler:3/MoMS:9, and as a PFS build, I'm not sure what is better for the build. Because the build never hits Monk 10, there is no opportunity to get Mantis Style (for free) but there is a +1 BAB for the FIghter Level and a further +3 attack and damage from Weapon Training and Gloves.

Brawler fighter WF unarmed
Lv1 PA
M1: Dragon
Lv3:Tiger
M 2: Tiger Pounce
Lv5: Tiger Claws
Lv7: Mantis Style
M 6: Mantid Wisdom
M 7: 3-style (Lv8)
Lv9: Elemental Fist
F 2: Dragon Roar
Lv10 = F 3: Gloves of Dueling

Unarmed Fighter MoMS:

Monk build
Lv1: Unarmed Fighter, Lv2+ Monk MoMS
Human: Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Lv1: Power Attack
Fighter: TIger Style
Lv2: monk
Monk 1: Tiger Pounce
Lv3: Dragon Style
Monk 2: Dragon Ferocity
Lv5: Tiger Claws
Lv7: Mantis Style
Monk 6: Mantis Wisdom
Lv9: Elemental Fist
MoMS 8: three styles
Lv11: Dragon Roar AoE
Monk10: Medusa's Wrath

There is room for an extra two feats, as Tiger, Dragon and Mantis all require 3 ranks, which is how the fighter dip was keyed to work, but it does catch-up pretty quickly, and still gets Tiger Claws by fifth, making for a devastating full-attack that should outpace a fighter's full attack for a bit due to only taking one hit to do.

Silver Crusade

remember brawler gives +1/+3 so the gloves should give +2/+6 (they double the stuff right?)

also, my bad, for some reason I thought fang was a swift action. brain derp, still you can only take 1 immediate action a turn so eh, without combat reflexs you only get snake fang 1/round anyway

also remember the nice thing about MoMS is, once you have the style, you don't need to get the rest of the trees in order, you could very well go snake style, then take snake fang as your MoMS feat without sidewinder (or whatever the other one was called.)

Scarab Sages

You can't take an immediate action and a swift action in the same round. You can take an immediate action, but when you do, it takes your swift action for you next turn.


rorek55 wrote:

remember brawler gives +1/+3 so the gloves should give +2/+6 (they double the stuff right?)

also, my bad, for some reason I thought fang was a swift action. brain derp, still you can only take 1 immediate action a turn so eh, without combat reflexs you only get snake fang 1/round anyway

also remember the nice thing about MoMS is, once you have the style, you don't need to get the rest of the trees in order, you could very well go snake style, then take snake fang as your MoMS feat without sidewinder (or whatever the other one was called.)

You say a Snake Fang user can't make more AoO without Combat Reflexes as if Combat Reflexes is a bad thing to have. AoO are triggered in many ways above and beyond Snake Style. Combat Reflexes is a great feat to have on nearly any melee build.

Imbicatus wrote:
You can't take an immediate action and a swift action in the same round. You can take an immediate action, but when you do, it takes your swift action for you next turn.

Actually you can. Immadiate actions use up the swift action on the following round; it doesn't use up the swift action of the round you're still in.

For example, a Wizard could cast Haste, a Quickened Enlarge Person on the martial, and then step backward down a ladder and cast Feather Fall all in the same round. However, next round he can't do this as he's already used up his swift action by casting Feather Fall the round before.

Silver Crusade

I didn't say it was bad. Merely another feat you would need. Even then you only get one attack back. If! They miss


rorek55 wrote:
I didn't say it was bad. Merely another feat you would need. Even then you only get one attack back. If! They miss

First of all, Monks tend to have high AC, so the chances of an enemy missing often are high.

Secondly, a Panther Style only gets attacks at all if the enemy is dumb enough to keep attacking you. Not only that, you can only attack the enemy once using Panther Style.

See, the thing is, Panther requires you to move and forgo your full attack, hoping the enemy attacks you so you can make a retaliatory strike.

Snake Style (or Come and Get Me) don't require that. You simply move up and attack. Any AoO generated by Snake or CAGM are simply cherries on an already delicious bowl of ice cream.

Silver Crusade

Panther let's me smack some one that tries to hit me up too my wisdom mod as free actions. Not even counting as AoOs. Drinking (drunken master) also provokes. As said earlier. Most intellgent enemies will try to take advantage of what seems to be a prime opportunity to put someone out of a fight. If need be I can still pounce with tiger after my first move. (Which doesn't work with snake because of action economy) ofc at 20 you can have dragon/panther/tiger/snake/ monkey all active at once. (Or at 15 all but monkey)

Monks have high ac... later on even then it is less than others even more so with tiger style. Unless your a dex monk and then... good luck.


Looking at the info I tossed up earlier, seems like the gear makes sense, as far as when gear is purchasable.

I'm struggling to come up with a good stat buy, high wisdom and strength. I'm pretty bad at picking point builds, so suggestions would help, but i'm looking at
Str18, dex12, con12, int10, wis16, cha7

I can't really find another way to get better stats, in terms of starting and placing points from level.

With the 18 strength, he can keep up.
Fighter using a Breastplate gets 9 AC if it splits focus and pushes Dex higher, and Plate gets 10 for armor, plus another 11 in bonuses by 15, and can get abput a point in enhance per level once past 4th or so. So total AC21 by about 15

Monk with 16 wis that takes +2 from level hits ac or 5 from stats, another two points from headband, and 4 from monk AC and robes for 11, another 5 or 6 from armor and +5 from barkskin (quiggong) so they keep even as far as AC goes.

The attack bonuses are only off by 3 when stunning. The only difference is damage, and a Monk has the ability to Stun, as well as several other powers, more if he goes Drunken Master of Many Styles.

SO is the Fighter 3/Monk stronger than the Fighter1/monk?
I gotta look into that. the damage may be higher, looks like it has potential at points, but with a Level-by-level, it's interesting to watch what the builds will actually look like side-by side.
No time for a full analysis yet, but if someone has anything to add, I for one would like to see it

EDIT
Also, it's only the second attack of Snake fang that is the immediate! (I totally derped there)
Now a Panther/snake/crane would be brutal.
Provike
Panther AoO interrupt (do so defensively with crane)
Hit causes a -2 to the triggering AoO
AoO missed due to AC from fighting defensively and bonus from Crane-wing
Triggers Snake Fang
Immediate to perform a second attack.

That's likely 3 hits for an AoO attempt


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rorek55 wrote:

remember brawler gives +1/+3 so the gloves should give +2/+6 (they double the stuff right?)

also, my bad, for some reason I thought fang was a swift action. brain derp, still you can only take 1 immediate action a turn so eh, without combat reflexs you only get snake fang 1/round anyway

also remember the nice thing about MoMS is, once you have the style, you don't need to get the rest of the trees in order, you could very well go snake style, then take snake fang as your MoMS feat without sidewinder (or whatever the other one was called.)

Rorek you really need to fact check before you claim things.

Drinking does not provoke, "The act of drinking is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity." Directly out of the drunken master drunken ki entry.

Also the gloves do not double anything they increase the bonus from weapon training by +2

Edit: Additionally panther explicitly calls out getting attacks back only due to movement not due to any action which provokes. "when an opponent makes an attack of opportunity against you for moving through a threatened square,"

Silver Crusade

gnomersy wrote:
rorek55 wrote:

remember brawler gives +1/+3 so the gloves should give +2/+6 (they double the stuff right?)

also, my bad, for some reason I thought fang was a swift action. brain derp, still you can only take 1 immediate action a turn so eh, without combat reflexs you only get snake fang 1/round anyway

also remember the nice thing about MoMS is, once you have the style, you don't need to get the rest of the trees in order, you could very well go snake style, then take snake fang as your MoMS feat without sidewinder (or whatever the other one was called.)

Rorek you really need to fact check before you claim things.

Drinking does not provoke, "The act of drinking is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity." Directly out of the drunken master drunken ki entry.

Also the gloves do not double anything they increase the bonus from weapon training by +2

Edit: Additionally panther explicitly calls out getting attacks back only due to movement not due to any action which provokes. "when an opponent makes an attack of opportunity against you for moving through a threatened square,"

I was talking about potions really I HAD thougt drinking was the same as drinking a potion. My bad.

The gloves I have never used, its why I asked and didn't simply state matter of factly.

About panther that did slip my reading still extremely useful, if you even only get it once a fight its worth it IMO. (With a headband of wis +4 that's 5 free attacks on the bbeg that swung at you +your standard attack all at full bab.) With tiger pounce you can still move and full attack if your target is not dead. (Allowing you to provoke then full attack).


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rorek55 wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
rorek55 wrote:

remember brawler gives +1/+3 so the gloves should give +2/+6 (they double the stuff right?)

also, my bad, for some reason I thought fang was a swift action. brain derp, still you can only take 1 immediate action a turn so eh, without combat reflexs you only get snake fang 1/round anyway

also remember the nice thing about MoMS is, once you have the style, you don't need to get the rest of the trees in order, you could very well go snake style, then take snake fang as your MoMS feat without sidewinder (or whatever the other one was called.)

Rorek you really need to fact check before you claim things.

Drinking does not provoke, "The act of drinking is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity." Directly out of the drunken master drunken ki entry.

Also the gloves do not double anything they increase the bonus from weapon training by +2

Edit: Additionally panther explicitly calls out getting attacks back only due to movement not due to any action which provokes. "when an opponent makes an attack of opportunity against you for moving through a threatened square,"

I was talking about potions really I HAD thougt drinking was the same as drinking a potion. My bad.

The gloves I have never used, its why I asked and didn't simply state matter of factly.

About panther that did slip my reading still extremely useful, if you even only get it once a fight its worth it IMO. (With a headband of wis +4 that's 5 free attacks on the bbeg that swung at you +your standard attack all at full bab.) With tiger pounce you can still move and full attack if your target is not dead. (Allowing you to provoke then full attack).

Have you read none of my posts? You really should. You also need to spend some quality time reading your rulebook again.

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity wrote:
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

Ok, so a little more information. A medium opponent (such as a human) has 8 squares that he threatens normally (see diagram below). If you move into square 1, and then into square 2, you provoke an attack for leaving square 1.

123
8X4
765

Now, if the enemy makes that attack of opportunity, Panther Style would let you make a retaliatory strike. Let's say the enemy has Combat Reflexes and a Dex of 24 (for a grand total of 8 possible attack of opportunities). If you move from square 2 into square 3, then into 4, then 5, then 6, then 7, then 8, then back into square 1 how many attack of opportunities is that from the enemy located in square X?

The answer? None. Moving through all those squares provokes no additional attacks from the enemy is square X.

So, with Panther, you've moved up and moved and all the way around the enemy, you have, possibly, traded made one additional attack, including the normal attack you would get for moving then attacking.

Next round, if you move all around the enemy, you've traded your potential full attack, for only 1 bonus attack.

=====================================

So, again, I will re-iterate.

Panther Style is only useful if you move every round.

Panther Style relies on enemies making AoO against you in order for it to have any use at all.

Panther Style does not generate additional attacks for you, because it requires you to move and forgo your normal attacks.

Panther Style is best used by enemy NPCs as they usually only get a few rounds. Panther Style lets them last longer as it forces the PC martials to keep moving to the enemy, which restricts them from full attacking as much. Especially if they use an allied PC to block charge lanes.

Silver Crusade

Actually you can. Immadiate actions use up the swift action on the following round; it doesn't use up the swift action of the round you're still in.

Actually you can't
See core rules below

"Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed."

Silver Crusade

Tels wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
rorek55 wrote:

remember brawler gives +1/+3 so the gloves should give +2/+6 (they double the stuff right?)

also, my bad, for some reason I thought fang was a swift action. brain derp, still you can only take 1 immediate action a turn so eh, without combat reflexs you only get snake fang 1/round anyway

also remember the nice thing about MoMS is, once you have the style, you don't need to get the rest of the trees in order, you could very well go snake style, then take snake fang as your MoMS feat without sidewinder (or whatever the other one was called.)

Rorek you really need to fact check before you claim things.

Drinking does not provoke, "The act of drinking is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity." Directly out of the drunken master drunken ki entry.

Also the gloves do not double anything they increase the bonus from weapon training by +2

Edit: Additionally panther explicitly calls out getting attacks back only due to movement not due to any action which provokes. "when an opponent makes an attack of opportunity against you for moving through a threatened square,"

I was talking about potions really I HAD thougt drinking was the same as drinking a potion. My bad.

The gloves I have never used, its why I asked and didn't simply state matter of factly.

About panther that did slip my reading still extremely useful, if you even only get it once a fight its worth it IMO. (With a headband of wis +4 that's 5 free attacks on the bbeg that swung at you +your standard attack all at full bab.) With tiger pounce you can still move and full attack if your target is not dead. (Allowing you to provoke then full attack).

Have you read none of my posts? You really should. You also need to spend some quality time reading your rulebook again.

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity wrote:
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the
...

Have you read mine? rreally doesn't seem so

You only need them to take ONE AOO against you. Then as FREE actions you can smack that one person up to your wisdom mod. Thats anywhere from 3+ attacks. Nothing limits how many times you can strike them. (Read panther claw please).


Panther Claw wrote:
Benefit: While using Panther Style, you can spend a free action, instead of spending a swift action, to make a retaliatory unarmed strike. You can make a number of retaliatory unarmed strikes on your turn equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Panther style lets you use a swift action to make a retaliatory strike. Claw makes it free. What claw does not indicate is that you are allowed to make multiple attacks against one triggering AoO, it limits the number of attacks you can make to your wisdom mod as it is no longer limited by action economy.

You cannot use all your retaliatory strikes against one target for one AoO, you instead can hit a number of targets based upon how Wis mod. Only one attack per Provocation. that is the president set by both AoO rules and Snake Fang, the third feat in the tree that costs an immediate action to perform a second attack.

Sledge Hammer wrote:

Actually you can't

See core rules below

"Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed."

You can take a swift action, then take an immediate action, which uses the swift action for the next turn, out of turn.

What I am not sure of is using Tiger/Snake to Swift and approach
attack
Move away (provoking)
AoO misses proviking a Snake attack as an AoO
Immediate action to attack again.

It is your turn that you are spending the immediate action on, and you have swifted, so can you make that attack, using the next round's swift action?

Silver Crusade

waiph wrote:
Panther Claw wrote:
Benefit: While using Panther Style, you can spend a free action, instead of spending a swift action, to make a retaliatory unarmed strike. You can make a number of retaliatory unarmed strikes on your turn equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Panther style lets you use a swift action to make a retaliatory strike. Claw makes it free. What claw does not indicate is that you are allowed to make multiple attacks against one triggering AoO, it limits the number of attacks you can make to your wisdom mod as it is no longer limited by action economy.

You cannot use all your retaliatory strikes against one target for one AoO, you instead can hit a number of targets based upon how Wis mod. Only one attack per Provocation. that is the president set by both AoO rules and Snake Fang, the third feat in the tree that costs an immediate action to perform a second attack.

Sledge Hammer wrote:

Actually you can't

See core rules below

"Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed."

You can take a swift action, then take an immediate action, which uses the swift action for the next turn, out of turn.

What I am not sure of is using Tiger/Snake to Swift and approach
attack
Move away (provoking)
AoO misses proviking a Snake attack as an AoO
Immediate action to attack again.

It is your turn that you are spending the immediate action on, and you have swifted, so can you make that attack, using the next round's swift action?

well here is the thing, free actions are free, if I can make free action attacks, why should I not be able to hit the same person several times? It does not state you may or must hit multiple targets.

also, the problem with using swift + immediate is next turn you have no swift action to use tiger pounce if needed.


But if you get a free attack, singular, then you get one, as you do with combat reflexes.
From a design standpoint, if Snake fang, the third feat in a tree, allows for a single attack, with the option of making a second attack at 9th level, does it make sense that Panther claw, a feat available at first level to a fighter or monk, allow for up to 5 attacks at full base attack bonus?

Silver Crusade

perhaps not, but I never accused paizo of being very good at development.

in any case, I still prefer panther>snake in either ruling, as I don't have to worry about action economy. (true, you don't NEED to take the extra immediate attack, but then you are wasting some potential.)

either way, you can have both and mesh them together very well. as snake fang procs off of AoOs that miss as well.

Scarab Sages

What the feat allows you to do is to run by a line of 8 mooks, provoke from them all, and attack them all as you run by, It does not allow you to take 8 attacks at once when you provoke an AoO, nor does it allow you to provoke multiple AoOs from the same foe buy running around them in a circle. It's also worthless against anyone with reach, as you cannot make your retaliatory strike when they take the AoO.

Shadow Lodge

rorek55 wrote:
perhaps not, but I never accused paizo of being very good at development.

You mean, the company with one of the most popular RPG's in the world right?

Just addressing this to the entire Tiger style part of the discussion:You guys forget that the entire draw that a monk has towards Tiger style is to take away from AC and not attack when power attacking. The pseudo-pounce won't be that useful because it consumes your swift action [which a lot of monks use to get extra attacks or extra damage], and 1/2 your move speed, even as a monk/barbarian, will only be 50ft, and most of the time if the enemy is moving away, they will either withdraw [double move speed, so 60ft], or if they are really desperate, Run [quadruple move speed, so probably about 120ft], or simply 5ft step in which you don't need to use the style, because you can 5ft step.

Silver Crusade

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
perhaps not, but I never accused paizo of being very good at development.

You mean, the company with one of the most popular RPG's in the world right?

Oh, I love the game, but, design wise the mechanics can fall apart, especially when you look at classes such as the rogue or monk, and then classes such as the summoner.

Dark Archive

@rorek pllllllleeeeeease fact check (just a little). Fortunately several (or a couple) of people have called you out on a multitude of erroneous statements. Also, it has been proven somewhere that Panther style is pretty lame in that you can have a +100 wis mod, trigger an aoo via movement and simply have a single attack. I know because I -researched- the feat since I was afraid that there was a useless and stupid limitation on it like that. The monk I am currently playing (who isn't a monk yet) was originally built for abusing that feat chain. But knowing that it is an excellent way to dissapoint myself and after having seeing my dream crushed, I abandoned it and moved on to another idea instead. One that has not been erata'd and does not have limitations placed that render it useless and demoralizing.

Avoid panther style if you can. Only very specific builds/circumstances make it worth it. I say this with great sadness. :( but for a home game you could have your gm house rule that it works like it should. In which case all you need is for someone to take that aoo once. They probably won't get a second chance to 'learn from their mistakes'.

Further, you're guaranteed to get it off at least one to three times per fight against every new enemy you face unless everyone knows your style ahead of time.

Silver Crusade

eh, I have only used the chain once, when I played a monk before.

(the reason I "misunderstood" the ruling on panther claw was due to the 3 experienced players and GMs (they rotated through campaigns) I played with before I transferred colleges all Told me it worked that way, and so I never put much more research into it. (one was the local PFS DM) (they had been playing for about 8 years and were a fair bit older than I was)

most of the time if I am unsure of something I will say what I "think" it does and then ask in ( ) out to the side for correction. To be fair, most of the stuff I say isn't false, there are slip ups though and I thank the people that catch them.

also if I may what is this new idea you are working on :3


rorek55 wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
rorek55 wrote:

remember brawler gives +1/+3 so the gloves should give +2/+6 (they double the stuff right?)

also, my bad, for some reason I thought fang was a swift action. brain derp, still you can only take 1 immediate action a turn so eh, without combat reflexs you only get snake fang 1/round anyway

also remember the nice thing about MoMS is, once you have the style, you don't need to get the rest of the trees in order, you could very well go snake style, then take snake fang as your MoMS feat without sidewinder (or whatever the other one was called.)

Rorek you really need to fact check before you claim things.

Drinking does not provoke, "The act of drinking is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity." Directly out of the drunken master drunken ki entry.

Also the gloves do not double anything they increase the bonus from weapon training by +2

Edit: Additionally panther explicitly calls out getting attacks back only due to movement not due to any action which provokes. "when an opponent makes an attack of opportunity against you for moving through a threatened square,"

I was talking about potions really I HAD thougt drinking was the same as drinking a potion. My bad.

The gloves I have never used, its why I asked and didn't simply state matter of factly.

About panther that did slip my reading still extremely useful, if you even only get it once a fight its worth it IMO. (With a headband of wis +4 that's 5 free attacks on the bbeg that swung at you +your standard attack all at full bab.) With tiger pounce you can still move and full attack if your target is not dead. (Allowing you to provoke then full attack).

Just a note here. The Gloves actually do nothing for a Brawler. Brawler gives up Weapon Training, so the gloves don't add anything to the build.


Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

MOMS is weak, without flurry he's never going to hit much. Maneuver master struggles as well, as noted. Tettori can be good because he is able to grapple practically everything.

Depends. I have a PC playing a MOMS in my game. He keeps crane wing and Panther Style up. Combined with Mobility. He just runs around fast attacking every single AOO that comes at him...well 5 or 6 based on his Wis...and does pretty alright. It's pretty funny to watch actually. And all of those are at his highest BAB.

Scarab Sages

Gargs454 wrote:


Just a note here. The Gloves actually do nothing for a Brawler. Brawler gives up Weapon Training, so the gloves don't add anything to the build.

True, but the brawler can still use the much cheaper Deliquescent G;loves to add the equivalent damage boost. You do miss out on the extra to hit, which hurts, but a brawler doesn't need it as much.

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