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The Brawler still overshadows the Monk in many ways. Same skill points, same scaling unarmed damage dice, better flurry, slightly weaker AC bonus, better DR penetrations, full BAB, better hit die, awesome spontaneous feat mechanic... The monk was basically gutted of all of his combat abilities for the Brawler.
I find a thought I had kind of amusing (but not in a good way):
Developers have repeatedly stated that a new magic item for unarmed strikes cannot be made better than the Amulet of Mighty Fists, because that would be replacing a core item, and that is something they were not prepared to do.
However, that logic apparently does not apply to coming up with a new class that does something better than a Core Rulebook class (Brawler, Warpriest of Irori, etc vs the Monk). :-/
I will point out for drunken masters that some DM's may impose penalties after intense Ki replenishment due to, you know, drunkenness...
Funny thing about that though, if you drank excessively in combat, you won't feel the drunkenness until after combat. Each round is ~6 seconds. 10 rounds of a continuous combat may take a long time at the table (long enough for you yourself to get drunk), but in game, only a minute has gone by. Even if you drank every round, you won't be drunk by the time combat ends.
And as I recall the RAW effects of alcohol consumption in pathfinder is that you are sickened.
So at most -2, even if you drink a pool of the stuff.
prototype00
The Brawler still overshadows the Monk in many ways. Same skill points, same scaling unarmed damage dice, better flurry, slightly weaker AC bonus, better DR penetrations, full BAB, better hit die, awesome spontaneous feat mechanic... The monk was basically gutted of all of his combat abilities for the Brawler.I find a thought I had kind of amusing (but not in a good way):
Developers have repeatedly stated that a new magic item for unarmed strikes cannot be made better than the Amulet of Mighty Fists, because that would be replacing a core item, and that is something they were not prepared to do.
However, that logic apparently does not apply to coming up with a new class that does something better than a Core Rulebook class (Brawler, Warpriest of Irori, etc vs the Monk). :-/
You are not the only person to have noticed this. I think the Class Guide is quickly turning into another missed opportunity to fix the weaker classes rather than offer more and more replacements for them.
I will point out for drunken masters that some DM's may impose penalties after intense Ki replenishment due to, you know, drunkenness...
Indeed, it's one drink plus one for every point of Con bonus you have as a maximum limit, and each drink takes an hour to metabolise. However, an extra 3 ki for a 14 Con monk per fight if those fights are adequately spaced out is more than ample to get through the day with ki to spare.
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What, in your opinion, is the most powerful monk archtype?
Or build for that matter? (For the purposes of keeping it as monk like as possible, lets say any build has to have the majority of levels as a monk)
I'm partial to the Master of Many Styles flavour but I don't think it's particularly strong. I've heard the Maneuver Master is pretty strong but I haven't seen the maths for it.
What do you think?
Monk/Druid, hands down. 12/8.
Colossal Fist Damage(12d8)+StaticVery high CMD, CMB, AC(all), Saves
Spells up to 4th or 5th level depending
The majority of defensive Monk abilities
Different Wildshape forms
Dex/Wis build - Snake Style - Up to 15 attacks per round.
It's pretty sexy :3
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You are not the only person to have noticed this. I think the Class Guide is quickly turning into another missed opportunity to fix the weaker classes rather than offer more and more replacements for them.I find a thought I had kind of amusing (but not in a good way):
Developers have repeatedly stated that a new magic item for unarmed strikes cannot be made better than the Amulet of Mighty Fists, because that would be replacing a core item, and that is something they were not prepared to do.
However, that logic apparently does not apply to coming up with a new class that does something better than a Core Rulebook class (Brawler, Warpriest of Irori, etc vs the Monk). :-/
You're probably right. Quite the shame, really. Still, I'm holding onto a sliver of a hope that we'll see improvements to some of the weaker classes (Monk, Rogue, ?) sometime later. (The pessimist in me, however, feels like that won't be the case).
Shame that Paizo can't hire you, Master Arminas, Tels (plus a few select others) to help re-write the Monk. I'm sure it'd turn into a thing of beauty ;)
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The issue with Monk/Druids is they suck until at least mid and usually high levels (around 10 they start being solid). By high they are weaker than a standard druid (nothing they do compares with 9th level spells). They are a math formula for the most damage in a single attack; but they take a long time to set up, and never have a very good "to hit" relative to Fighter/Barbarian/War Priest front liners.
Really I could swear it was 1+(2*Con bonus) which incidentally lines up much closer to where I'd classify being really drunk although I think even your average person aka Con 11 can have more than one drink in an hour before getting sick.Indeed, it's one drink plus one for every point of Con bonus you have as a maximum limit, and each drink takes an hour to metabolise. However, an extra 3 ki for a 14 Con monk per fight if those fights are adequately spaced out is more than ample to get through the day with ki to spare.
HeroLab gives a 14 Con monk up to 3 drunken ki...but he has yet to run out over an adventuring day. I do not think you need to be sick to be "sickened" - I think it's just a case that after that many drinks your performance is inhibited.
You're probably right. Quite the shame, really. Still, I'm holding onto a sliver of a hope that we'll see improvements to some of the weaker classes (Monk, Rogue, ?) sometime later. (The pessimist in me, however, feels like that won't be the case).
I agree, there are some changes I really do not really expect until Pathfinder 2.0 or 1.5 or something.
Shame that Paizo can't hire you, Master Arminas, Tels (plus a few select others) to help re-write the Monk. I'm sure it'd turn into a thing of beauty ;)
My own tests and suggestions are on these boards, and Paizo are welcome to use them if they wish, free of charge.
Really I could swear it was 1+(2*Con bonus) which incidentally lines up much closer to where I'd classify being really drunk although I think even your average person aka Con 11 can have more than one drink in an hour before getting sick.Indeed, it's one drink plus one for every point of Con bonus you have as a maximum limit, and each drink takes an hour to metabolise. However, an extra 3 ki for a 14 Con monk per fight if those fights are adequately spaced out is more than ample to get through the day with ki to spare.
HeroLab gives a 14 Con monk up to 3 drunken ki...but he has yet to run out over an adventuring day. I do not think you need to be sick to be "sickened" - I think it's just a case that after that many drinks your performance is inhibited.
You're probably right. Quite the shame, really. Still, I'm holding onto a sliver of a hope that we'll see improvements to some of the weaker classes (Monk, Rogue, ?) sometime later. (The pessimist in me, however, feels like that won't be the case).I agree, there are some changes I really do not really expect until Pathfinder 2.0 or 1.5 or something.
My own tests and suggestions are on these boards, and Paizo are welcome to use them if they wish, free of charge.Shame that Paizo can't hire you, Master Arminas, Tels (plus a few select others) to help re-write the Monk. I'm sure it'd turn into a thing of beauty ;)
I have my own house rules (now out of date) posted up on the boards too. If Paizo wishes to use them they can, even if I say otherwise. Anything posted to the Paizo forums directly (and not hosted off site) becomes the property of Paizo for legal reasons.
However, I would recommend using Dabbler's changes as he has gone through extensive effort to alter the Monk while keeping true to the word count as best he can. I myself have not worried about the word count too much and I also know that some of my changes are pretty open to abuse by power gamers.
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The issue with Monk/Druids is they suck until at least mid and usually high levels (around 10 they start being solid). By high they are weaker than a standard druid (nothing they do compares with 9th level spells). They are a math formula for the most damage in a single attack; but they take a long time to set up, and never have a very good "to hit" relative to Fighter/Barbarian/War Priest front liners.
That is correct :( It does take a while to setup, but just because your damage is average doesn't mean you suck. There is still PLENTY of flavor, RP, and shinanagins(sp) involved. Once they hit 10 they do become solid, and very synergetic. It's an awkward, but VERY rewarding growth. Once they hit 15 they are essentially optimized for most of what they're designed for. Getting to 20 is just a nice addition. Being this thread is all about the most powerful monk(majority in monk levels), my suggestion still stands to be one of the strongest by far.
The "to hit" factor can be easily made up for, to an enjoyable and comfortable extent, without having to sacrifice much of anything aside from a small amount of gold.Items alone are enough to take care of it, and they're cheap.
The problem with your monk/druid is that while he makes a great monk, he makes a poor druid. Straight druid beats him via caster superiority. So yes, the best monk...in the same way a fighter/cleric would be more powerful than a straight fighter.
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My own tests and suggestions are on these boards, and Paizo are welcome to use them if they wish, free of charge.Shame that Paizo can't hire you, Master Arminas, Tels (plus a few select others) to help re-write the Monk. I'm sure it'd turn into a thing of beauty ;)
Shame that Paizo can't hire you, Master Arminas, Tels (plus a few select others) to help re-write the Monk. I'm sure it'd turn into a thing of beauty ;)
My own tests and suggestions are on these boards, and Paizo are welcome to use them if they wish, free of charge.
I have my own house rules (now out of date) posted up on the boards too. If Paizo wishes to use them they can, even if I say otherwise. Anything posted to the Paizo forums directly (and not hosted off site) becomes the property of Paizo for legal reasons.
However, I would recommend using Dabbler's changes as he has gone through extensive effort to alter the Monk while keeping true to the word count as best he can. I myself have not worried about the word count too much and I also know that some of my changes are pretty open to abuse by power gamers.
I realize that you both have already posted some revisions to the Monk class (as well as Master Arminas and a few others), and there's a lot to like. Just wanted to give credit where I think it's due. :)
Hopefully, when the Monk gets revisited (whenever that is), some of those insights will be taken to heart.
Dotting for later comment.
MA
Saw something about a drunken Master of many Styles, which i forgot you can do... may be pretty sweet.
But i have a Master of many styles concept that needs some polish, but may be decent with some work...
The idea is to use High Str and Dragon Style while adding Panther and Snake for more attacks, at full bonus. Seems like the build wants at least 14 Dex, but dunno how to fit it without gimping Con too much.
Item wise, bosting Str and Con for physical, and then a headband for Wis to boost DC of his stun and dragon roar. then deal as many attacks at full bonus as possible through getting missed or provoking.
Stats for 20 pt buy
Human
Str18, Dex:12, Con12, int10, wis16, cha7
Feat's till 10
Human: Combat Reflexes
Lv1: Panther Style
m1:Dragon Style
m2: Dragon Ferocity
3:Panther Claw
5:Snake Style
m6:Snake Fang
7:Elemental Fist
9:Dragon Roar
10:Medusa's Wrath
at 11, maybe Panther Parry and use a stunning fist with it to stun before the attack can even hit then provoke the next one that you snake-style to make miss and deliver 3 attacks, then hit the guy you charged for 5d6+1.5 str with an elemental fist.
Play:
Lv 1, you have lame AC with a 15, and HP is only 9, but you have a +4 to hit and damage is 1d6+6, and if you provoke an AoO, you get another attack, and you have 2 AoO's to throw around, you charge over anything, and have some bleh extra bonuses
Your first attack is +5 to hit for 1d6+8 and the rest are 1d6+6
Lv 3: Now you get 3 attacks for provoking all at +6 for 1d6+6
Lv 6: With Snake-Fang, you can use panther to provoke and punish then switch to snake to tango with an enemy
Lv 7: you become more threatening, tossing an attack at +9 (11 on a charge) for 1d8+2d6[elemental]+8 stunning fist and have a couple AoO's for when enemies miss you
At 10, the idea is to charge in and Stunning-fist, or move up and Dragon Roar
Medusa's Wrath extra attacks will hit enemies hit by your stnning fist, and you have plenty to use through the day, you have a bunch of attacks at your full bonus to hit. Nothing as high as a fighter's, but you have several attacks to use that are comparable to the fighter's second attack, and don't really need to worry about full attacking.
or if someone is near you, try to stun, then Medusa them with 2 attacks at full bonus.
OR
Or aim for lots of stun later
Str:14, dex:14, con:14, int:9, wis:18, cha7
You only have 3 or 4 bonus damage, but the focus is on Quiggong abilities and stuns for later in the game, only getting Belts of Con/Str, and Headbands of Wis.
You have less terrible HP and AC compared to the last build, and as you level, you use Drunken Ki, Elemental Fists, unarmed damage dice to hurt people with almost every attack at your full base attack, and playing with Quiggong abilities wit your high Wis score. maybe get guided amf if your wis goes up higher
Seems not too awful for 2am thinking... but there may be better styles
edit
Str:17, Dex:14, Con:14, Int:10, Wis:15, Cha:7
got i hate 2am thinking, cause i dunno if this one is workable r idiotic...
Lv1 you roll with a temple sword doing 1d8+4 till 4th level when you use a temple sword for 1d8+6, and you can wear MWK Studded leather till 8 or you get a headband for Wis and/or bracers, or a caster willing to mage-armor you.
At 8th you push your Wis and focus on that, till endgame, turning into a stun-machine using Dragon style for bonus damage. If your wis becomes 4 higher than your Str, Guided AMF could be reasonable using the afore mentioned feat progression
The Brawler still overshadows the Monk in many ways. Same skill points, same scaling unarmed damage dice, better flurry, slightly weaker AC bonus, better DR penetrations, full BAB, better hit die, awesome spontaneous feat mechanic... The monk was basically gutted of all of his combat abilities for the Brawler.I find a thought I had kind of amusing (but not in a good way):
Developers have repeatedly stated that a new magic item for unarmed strikes cannot be made better than the Amulet of Mighty Fists, because that would be replacing a core item, and that is something they were not prepared to do.
However, that logic apparently does not apply to coming up with a new class that does something better than a Core Rulebook class (Brawler, Warpriest of Irori, etc vs the Monk). :-/
thats quite odd, since the clockwork prosthetic exists now and IS better than an AoMF. period. heck, it's worth the investment (monetarily and bodily) to get four of them--only enchanting the one, of course, though you could give another +1 and some auxiliary effects if you wanted to be a weapon enchant-slut.
sure you have to cut off your freaking arm to get one (in what has to be the most backhanded example of a monk "buff" i have ever seen), but in the face of the amulet of mighty fists, it's a worthy investment.
on another note: doesnt the brawler have light armor prof. (so he can grab the brawling enchant for yet another edge over the monk?)
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thats quite odd, since the clockwork prosthetic exists now and IS better than an AoMF. period. heck, it's worth the investment (monetarily and bodily) to get four of them--only enchanting the one, of course, though you could give another +1 and some auxiliary effects if you wanted to be a weapon enchant-slut.
sure you have to cut off your freaking arm to get one (in what has to be the most backhanded example of a monk "buff" i have ever seen), but in the face of the amulet of mighty fists, it's a worthy investment.
on another note: doesnt the brawler have light armor prof. (so he can grab the brawling enchant for yet another edge over the monk?)
You're right, I forgot about the clockwork prosthetic, probably because my monk plays in PFS and that item isn't allowed there. But yes, it's stupid that the best way for a monk to get enchanted fists costs him literally an arm and/or a leg to get it.
It wouldn't surprise me if developers come back and say something stupid, like it doesn't count as an unarmed strike and therefore is not eligible to be used in a flurry of blows or something ;)
I haven't looked into too much detail into Brawler, but I believe that they do indeed get light armor proficiency, and thus could use the Brawler enchantment.
The Brawler still overshadows the Monk in many ways. Same skill points, same scaling unarmed damage dice, better flurry, slightly weaker AC bonus, better DR penetrations, full BAB, better hit die, awesome spontaneous feat mechanic... The monk was basically gutted of all of his combat abilities for the Brawler.I find a thought I had kind of amusing (but not in a good way):
Developers have repeatedly stated that a new magic item for unarmed strikes cannot be made better than the Amulet of Mighty Fists, because that would be replacing a core item, and that is something they were not prepared to do.
However, that logic apparently does not apply to coming up with a new class that does something better than a Core Rulebook class (Brawler, Warpriest of Irori, etc vs the Monk). :-/
thats quite odd, since the clockwork prosthetic exists now and IS better than an AoMF. period. heck, it's worth the investment (monetarily and bodily) to get four of them--only enchanting the one, of course, though you could give another +1 and some auxiliary effects if you wanted to be a weapon enchant-slut.
sure you have to cut off your freaking arm to get one (in what has to be the most backhanded example of a monk "buff" i have ever seen), but in the face of the amulet of mighty fists, it's a worthy investment.
on another note: doesnt the brawler have light armor prof. (so he can grab the brawling enchant for yet another edge over the monk?)
The Brawler does indeed get Light Armor Proficiency, and they still gain their AC bonus when using armor.
3rd party. Not to say all 3rd party stuff is bad, but most DMs appreciate a certain Core Paizo/Pathfinder only aesthetic.
prototype00
thats quite odd, since the clockwork prosthetic exists now and IS better than an AoMF. period.
Could anyone direct me towards the book that contains the clockwork prosthetic? PFSRD came up blank, so I presume it's a fairly recent addition.
Edit: Found them! They're in the PPC: Magical Marketplace. Could anyone give me a quick breakdown of the benefits and drawbacks?
What do you mean by "more powerful"? DPR?
I've seen a nice build that has 71 AC at 20th level with all saves above 35, a couple inmunities and lots of nice stuff. Is that powerful?
Yeah. Some GMs don't like 3rd party stuff. And for those of us who want to play a Monk in PFS (like me), 3rd party stuff isn't allowed there.
I really like the Psionic Monk that I saw from a 3rd Party (can't remember who). Looked pretty awesome.
Alvena Publishing's Psionic Monk by Ashiel.
What do you mean by "more powerful"? DPR?
I've seen a nice build that has 71 AC at 20th level with all saves above 35, a couple inmunities and lots of nice stuff. Is that powerful?
Only in a solo game. Defences are great, but they don't help you help the party, they just stop you being a liability. What matters is what you can do to the enemy to stop them hurting the party (you included) not whether or not they can hurt you, specifically.
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Is it possible to combine both Flowing Monk and Manoeuvre Master archetypes? Flowing Monk replaces the normal list of Monk bonus feats with a new list. Manoeuvre Master adds combat manoeuvre feats to the list of Monk bonus feats. Assuming that isn't "replacing" the same class feature, there is no clash until level 5 Monk. If you never take the 5th level of Monk, can these archetypes be combined?
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Is it possible to combine both Flowing Monk and Manoeuvre Master archetypes? Flowing Monk replaces the normal list of Monk bonus feats with a new list. Manoeuvre Master adds combat manoeuvre feats to the list of Monk bonus feats. Assuming that isn't "replacing" the same class feature, there is no clash until level 5 Monk. If you never take the 5th level of Monk, can these archetypes be combined?
No - the rules for combining archetypes stipulate that none of the class features from level 1 through 20 overlap.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.
Both Flowing Monk and Maneuver Master replace purity of body, so they cannot be combined. Actually I believe the only archetype that can MC with Flowing Monk is Monk of the Sacred Mountain while Maneuver Master can be combined with Monk of the Four Winds and Weapon Adept.
There is a thread on the OotS-forums that has a list of valid archetype combinations. While I can't vouch that every combination is valid, I find it a very helpful startoff point when looking into archetypes. That thread can be found here.
Only in a solo game. Defences are great, but they don't help you help the party, they just stop you being a liability. What matters is what you can do to the enemy to stop them hurting the party (you included) not whether or not they can hurt you, specifically.What do you mean by "more powerful"? DPR?
I've seen a nice build that has 71 AC at 20th level with all saves above 35, a couple inmunities and lots of nice stuff. Is that powerful?
So pretty much "powerful" means "dpr"
So pretty much "powerful" means "dpr"Only in a solo game. Defences are great, but they don't help you help the party, they just stop you being a liability. What matters is what you can do to the enemy to stop them hurting the party (you included) not whether or not they can hurt you, specifically.What do you mean by "more powerful"? DPR?
I've seen a nice build that has 71 AC at 20th level with all saves above 35, a couple inmunities and lots of nice stuff. Is that powerful?
If you have a character that has super high AC, but his attack and damage sucks, then what you have is a road bump for enemies. If a PC's defense is high enough enemies can't hit him, but his offense is too low to be a threat, then the enemies will just ignore the PC and go kill someone else.
It's like laying siege to a castle. You don't attack the castle, you attack the resources. Take out the water, the food, and wait them out and you win. In the case of a PC, the water and food are the Wizard and Cleric.
So pretty much "powerful" means "dpr"Only in a solo game. Defences are great, but they don't help you help the party, they just stop you being a liability. What matters is what you can do to the enemy to stop them hurting the party (you included) not whether or not they can hurt you, specifically.What do you mean by "more powerful"? DPR?
I've seen a nice build that has 71 AC at 20th level with all saves above 35, a couple inmunities and lots of nice stuff. Is that powerful?
If you have a character that has super high AC, but his attack and damage sucks, then what you have is a road bump for enemies. If a PC's defense is high enough enemies can't hit him, but his offense is too low to be a threat, then the enemies will just ignore the PC and go kill someone else.
It's like laying siege to a castle. You don't attack the castle, you attack the resources. Take out the water, the food, and wait them out and you win. In the case of a PC, the water and food are the Wizard and Cleric.
Oh, I understood. And as I understood, I acknowledge now that all that matters to be powerful is DPR.
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Is it possible to combine both Flowing Monk and Manoeuvre Master archetypes? Flowing Monk replaces the normal list of Monk bonus feats with a new list. Manoeuvre Master adds combat manoeuvre feats to the list of Monk bonus feats. Assuming that isn't "replacing" the same class feature, there is no clash until level 5 Monk. If you never take the 5th level of Monk, can these archetypes be combined?No - the rules for combining archetypes stipulate that none of the class features from level 1 through 20 overlap.
[snipped]
Thanks Kudaku.
I'm looking to make a half-elf cleric-monk follower of Irori for pfs play. Any tips? I'm thinking Enlarge Person + trip and grapple manoeuvres. (Don't wish to derail the thread though! Happy to start a new one if appropriate.)
I'm looking to make a half-elf cleric-monk follower of Irori for pfs play. Any tips? I'm thinking Enlarge Person + trip and grapple manoeuvres. (Don't wish to derail the thread though! Happy to start a new one if appropriate.)
No worries, sent you a PM :)
That said, I'm not a really an expert on grapplers so making a thread on the Advice forum probably couldn't hurt.
thats quite odd, since the clockwork prosthetic exists now and IS better than an AoMF. period.Could anyone direct me towards the book that contains the clockwork prosthetic? PFSRD came up blank, so I presume it's a fairly recent addition.
Edit: Found them! They're in the PPC: Magical Marketplace. Could anyone give me a quick breakdown of the benefits and drawbacks?
you have to be missing a limb to add one, but:
-each arm gives an overhead lift capacity bonus and a +10 bonus against disarming things held in that hand (each arm, so a 2h weapon would be +20 vs disarm)
-each leg gives an off-the-ground lift capacity bonus and a +4 bonus against trip and bull rush PER LEG (meaning +8 vs trip/bull rush if you replace both)
-any CW prosthetic can be enchanted with any effect that works with an unarmed strike.
all around pretty awesome.
Is it possible to combine both Flowing Monk and Manoeuvre Master archetypes? Flowing Monk replaces the normal list of Monk bonus feats with a new list. Manoeuvre Master adds combat manoeuvre feats to the list of Monk bonus feats. Assuming that isn't "replacing" the same class feature, there is no clash until level 5 Monk. If you never take the 5th level of Monk, can these archetypes be combined?No - the rules for combining archetypes stipulate that none of the class features from level 1 through 20 overlap.
[snipped]Thanks Kudaku.
I'm looking to make a half-elf cleric-monk follower of Irori for pfs play. Any tips? I'm thinking Enlarge Person + trip and grapple manoeuvres. (Don't wish to derail the thread though! Happy to start a new one if appropriate.)
What are you looking for? More Irori flavour or more cleric flavour? If you want to be a divine Irori worshipping monk, then Champion of Irori might be more up your alley.
I even wrote a guide for it.
prototype00
So pretty much "powerful" means "dpr"Only in a solo game. Defences are great, but they don't help you help the party, they just stop you being a liability. What matters is what you can do to the enemy to stop them hurting the party (you included) not whether or not they can hurt you, specifically.What do you mean by "more powerful"? DPR?
I've seen a nice build that has 71 AC at 20th level with all saves above 35, a couple inmunities and lots of nice stuff. Is that powerful?
No, but if you are a combat class you really cannot function without decent DPR. Manuvers are great when they work, but they do not work all the time on every enemy, and effective DPR does. The monk has some other abilities like stunning fist and quivering palm that can add to their effectiveness, but both are effectively nerfed because you need to score effective hits for them to work, and if you can score effective hits this usually means you have decent DPR.
The monk is certainly a combat class, he has not the skills or powers to be effective out of combat enough to justify his being in the party, and he is neither a spell-caster or healer. Essentially his problems in combat come down to being poor at hitting things, having less than effective weapons, and not being very good at piercing DR. These are also large negative factors in making maneuvers successful (essentially manuevers key off your ability to hit things), and in making features like stunning fist work (you have to hit and score damage).
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If you don't do damage you still stun (fort negates), so its something to do against DR, for what its worth.
Building a Tank-monk couuld work.
Combat Patrol with fast movement shuts down large areas. And there's nothing to say you can't use Stunning-fist and Pushing Kick during AoOs.
Then Step-up and Strike and Standstill turns you into a big area of YOU SHALL NOT PASS.
Add dazzling display for a debuff for high fort enemies
Snake-fang iif you're a MoMS to punish missing your high AC
Or panther to hit the people you provoke from as you combat patrol
Or dragon to do a little damage w/elemental fist and Roar for an area stun.
Or crane to negate nasty single attacks that you interrupt.
Its tough to ignore a guy that hands out flanking to the rogue, shuts down charges, sticks to casters and stuns anything w/o a beastly fort save
If you don't do damage you still stun (fort negates), so its something to do against DR, for what its worth.
Building a Tank-monk couuld work.
Combat Patrol with fast movement shuts down large areas. And there's nothing to say you can't use Stunning-fist and Pushing Kick during AoOs.Then Step-up and Strike and Standstill turns you into a big area of YOU SHALL NOT PASS.
Add dazzling display for a debuff for high fort enemies
Snake-fang iif you're a MoMS to punish missing your high AC
Or panther to hit the people you provoke from as you combat patrol
Or dragon to do a little damage w/elemental fist and Roar for an area stun.
Or crane to negate nasty single attacks that you interrupt.Its tough to ignore a guy that hands out flanking to the rogue, shuts down charges, sticks to casters and stuns anything w/o a beastly fort save
Everything you mentioned would be great. If it worked. Problem is, it doesn't.
For instance, Stunning Fist only works if you hit, and if you deal damage, and if the enemy fails a save. If you punch a guy for 9 points of damage (this assumes you hit them) and they have DR 10, you deal no damage and Stunning Fist doesn't work, but is still used up. If you punch and miss, Stunning Fist is wasted. If you punch, hit, deal damage, and then the monster saves (not exactly difficult as Fort is the highest save on average) then the Stunning Fist is wasted.
If a character wants to be using a feat like Stunning Fist to prevent a creature from attacking, they should not use Stunning Fist, and use Dazing Assault instead. It imparts an attack penalty, but it has no limit on it's use and can be used on every attack in a round, while Stunning Fist is limited to once per round.
Monks have a lower attack bonus on AoO so they are less likely to hit than if they were flurrying. If you don't hit, then your combat patrol, step up, etc are all wasted. Standstill is the notable exception as it's a Maneuver, rather than a normal attack.
Dazzling Display is a great idea for Monks, because then they can spend that flurry of misses and at least impart a penalty. However, this tends to make you play Draco Malfoy. You hide behind Crabbe or Goyle (Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin etc) and say, "When my Father hears about this, you'll be sorry!"
Snake, Panther, Dragon and Crane are the best of the Style feats. With Crane Wing's recent mega-nerf, I'd rank them at Snake > Crane for defense and Dragon > Panther for offense. Over all, I'd probably go Snake > Dragon > Crane > Panther.
The problem is Monks don't shut down charges, unless they are standing in the way of the enemy. If you're doing that, the best way to handle it is to ready a move action to intercept an enemy mid-charge. Having your character just stand next to the caster while the martial is out fighting by himself tends to be a poor combat option. The martial is a beast in melee, sure, but he still needs help.
A Monk is martial character and should be fighting. For a player, if every round you just stand next to the caster, not doing anything and just playing a bodyguard, it's not really that fun. In fact, the other players are likely to have the same opinion as the Monk is going to be getting a share of the XP and treasure despite not actually contributing anything.
If you don't do damage you still stun (fort negates), so its something to do against DR, for what its worth.
Er, no.
Stunning Fist (Combat)
You know just where to strike to temporarily stun a foe.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn). A stunned character drops everything held, can’t take actions, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Special: A monk receives Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
Emphasis mine. You must damage a target to force that save, so DR works to block stunning fist.
Building a Tank-monk couuld work.
Combat Patrol with fast movement shuts down large areas. And there's nothing to say you can't use Stunning-fist and Pushing Kick during AoOs.Then Step-up and Strike and Standstill turns you into a big area of YOU SHALL NOT PASS.
Add dazzling display for a debuff for high fort enemies
This is nice, but a fighter does it better with better accuracy (he hits more often, and his higher CMD is more likely to work), more damage, a reach weapon, and all the feats you need to make it tick earlier.
Snake-fang iif you're a MoMS to punish missing your high AC
Or panther to hit the people you provoke from as you combat patrol
Or dragon to do a little damage w/elemental fist and Roar for an area stun.
Or crane to negate nasty single attacks that you interrupt.
Style feats are nice, but most of these attacks you are making spring off 3/4 BAB. The saddest thing is that any non-monk character wanting them can dip two levels of MoMS and get them before any other monk archetype can.
Its tough to ignore a guy that hands out flanking to the rogue, shuts down charges, sticks to casters and stuns anything w/o a beastly fort save
...but not so hard if he can't hit their AC, the monk's biggest problem.
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The reason I like Tetori monks so much is because Graceful Grappler fixes the inherent problem in Flurry of Blows: It isn't limited to Full Attacks using TWF. Graceful Grappler applies to your CMB and CMD when Grappling. ALL THE TIME. You can move full speed and still have the benefit of your defining class feature. Any other monk with Flurry of Blows cannot do that.
Tetori's are good, if you want to play a monk that grapples and nothing else. As noted before, they are a one-trick pony; it's a nice trick, but it's one trick.
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you forgot tiger... you know, the one that lets you full attack if you move half your movement, and, um take power attacks penalty to your AC instead of to-hit.
No, it lets you move half your movement towards an enemy you hit last round as a swift action. Sounds great in theory, but if an enemy has moved away from you, it's typically because he's running away. So he withdraws (meaning he moves 60 ft away), while half your movement, even at 20th level, is going to be 45 ft. which means you aren't catching him.
It might work well against a caster who 5-ft steps away, but in such a situation you could just 5-ft step and attack regardless.
The PA penalty to AC is nice is the best aspect of the entire Tiger Style chain. The 1d4 bleed damage from Tiger Style would be great... except you have a crit range of 20 (or 19-20) meaning the 1d4 bleed is only going to occur very rarely.
The strength of the other 4 feats is that they tend to work well together (to some extent) or let you do something extra.
Dragon Style (plus Ferocity) is hands down the beast RAW DPR style feat chain because it lets you add double strength on your first attack and 1.5 strength on all successive unarmed strike attacks.
Panther Style and Snake Style are both very similar in that they let you make extra attacks through the AoO mechanic. I rate Snake Style higher, because it's also a defensive style with a deflection mechanic. Panther also forces you to move every round, which prevents you from getting your full attack, while Snake Fang lets you get your full attack and additional AoO.
A Mythic Monk with Panther Style and Fleet Warrior + Impossible Speed (Champion Path) is a scary thought, as he can move and still get his full attack, while getting his retaliatory strikes from Panther Style.
A MoMS could make great use of a Dragon + Snake + Tiger style combo (throw a little Crane for bonus AC), but most people don't go down the full MoMS class as it's seen more as a dip than full potential.