well, early one its w/e as BAB doesn't effect to much, (about level 7 is where things start to split)You just summed up the monk class in general there as well. Great defensively, but poor offence. Rorek55, you missed the bit about actually hitting to deal that damage. 3/4 BAB and MAD and lack of any features to improve accuracy still make that hit a rare thing.Nah. Sides the fun abilities of the styles are too cool. That aside. There isn't much other than +wis to damage and a debuff (reach for Marid) that they give you. You get +elemental fists and ENG res.exactly. You spent six feats for elemental resistances. The moms is a class that is strong defensively but struggles with offense, and you just spent a third of your resources on more defense. It's a weak option.
Monks are generally OK at lower levels. It's the post-level 8 arena that they really start to struggle with.
later on, most encounters don't have a super high AC, look at the pit fiend, CR 20 with AC of 32-40 I believe. That's pretty hittable. If its a balor or something with ridiculous AC, things can get aggravating, but eh.)
Define "ridiculous AC" for a start...a balor is hardly ridiculous, after all. The problem here is that some enemies will buff and some will not. A green dragon has a normal-for-CR AC, but can cast shield which suddenly pumps it up. An enemy at CR+4 is not inappropriate for a BBEG and will have in general a much tougher AC - and those are the fights that count the most. This is the monk's biggest problem, hitting accurately.
The pother problem is that you are relying on energy for a lot of your damage. Now true you have two different types, but as you go up levels the number of foes with resistance to energy of several types (if not outright immunity) grows quite long, and it does not have to be high energy resistance to block most or all of your bonus damage (there's a reason the DPR Olympics discounted energy damage, after all). Your build is great on paper, but is relying on situational damage with questionable accuracy.
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I would not bother with two element styles. It is just really awkward having more.
On a related note, I have my monk build posted (even misspelled the title)! Wondering about your input on it dabbler. I don't want to spam it all over the boards as I have spoken about what it can do here and elsewhere but it now has it's own thread showing the actual build.
He is here:
Rune, most powerful monk? Nah!
I intend to take elemental fist with him but there are possibly other options, too. At this point, half of the things I do will help with the theme, so now I am trying to optimize and there is plenty of room.
I jsut got stuck with my Drunken Weapons Master of Many Styles, and am running into the issue that so many run into...
At Level 13, (WM fighter3/Monk10) I'm not sure what style I can add that is worth it to take.
Taking more monk doesn't necesssarily give as much with his lower level. It's not till 15th that he gets 4-styles and his 4th d6 of elemental fist. but fighter doesn't do much for him till Fighter 8 aside from Weap spec at 4th.
but at 13, and attack of
+16 for 2d6+2str+9+3d6[elmt]
or a full attack dealing 3 attacks at full bab +14 vs a stunned foe, or a single attack dealing 4d6+4str+18+3d6[elmt] are all pretty nasty.
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Do you have mantis style to push he stunning fist Dc up? And mantis wisdom to increase the chance of hitting with a stunning fist?
What I want/ed my monk to do was drop a stunning fist with +2 to the save cd and attack roll and tack on an elemental fist with it with Marid style (making that more likely to hit as well). Then the enemy takes unarmed damage and elemental fist damage and is forced to make two saves from the stun and Coldsnap. If stunned/fatigued they are also automatically shaken for 1d4 rounds thanks to dragon ferocity, which reduces their saves by 2, which in turn allows for the Coldsnap to go through entangling them.
All three if those styles feed off of one another. If that is too much of an investment and wisdom is an issue ( my monk currently gets a 14-15 max wis) then there is snapping turtle style for grapple and a shield bonus to ac which goes up to +2 and counts against touch attacks. Or you could look into either a defensive style (I don't recall your build at the moment) or grab one to expand your options. Even monkey is pretty good.
*edit* I just checked your older posts and it seems that you have tiger and dragon. I would refine those with another style. You are fine as is and can go all sorts if ways from there.
Not sure how you get more hit from marid style. It does up damage rolls, but don't see upping to hit.
ANd the build dues use Mantis and wisdom.
Goes through Dragon, TIger, and Mantis, E-fist, WF and PA, snaffing Medusa's Wrath at 10 for adding attacks versus stunned foes.
I like that Monktopus! Is it legal for PFS?
"Depending on DM fiat to make your character idea work is not ideal, is it? It's basically using house-rules to fix the monk."
This comment in particular makes me question how much you're actually considering what I'm saying.
I suggest a DM fiat to change the flavor of a magic item used...of a magic item that is in no way neccesary to the build of the monk. How, then, do you draw the conclusion that me suggesting if you don't like the flavor of the magic item, and that the flavor can be changed, that the monk fails unless DMs are willing to make up rules for you?
"OK, so 10 attacks then. Sorry, but I took a monk through 8th to 13th level with a grand total of one successful stunning fist attack in the entire period, and it wasn't a badly optimised monk either. Those extra two attacks are not to be relied upon; even the best build for stunning fist I've seen on these boards had only around a 30% chance of pulling it off against CR-equivelant enemy on any given attempt, so at most that's 10.6 attacks a round. "
Noted, but you almost have to remember Gentle Rest. Against a big bad dude, I will deplete my stores of gentle rest to keep him continuously staggered (no save throw), which triggers Medusa's wrath. Against piddly kinda-big bad guys, I'll throw Stunning Fists, and not be too worried if they don't succeed.
"Also, remember that one of the design parameters set by Paizo when they made Pathfinder was that every class should be able to function well as a pure class, that dipping should only open up options, not power. That's why these examples make me sad...because yes, you have built a great "monk" but at the price of giving up being a monk."
Well, if that was their intention (and I've seen the desire to do so through the rules), then they have failed. If you are a caster of any type, then there is honestly little reason to not dip sorcerer. You focus on evocation damaging spells? For a one level dip (a one level loss in power, granted, but made up for with Magical Knack, for the most part) you can effectively cast your spells near-Maximized, for free. ...which stacks with Maximize Spell. You're an enchanter? Serpentine and Undead bloodlines. Now you can charm not only humanoids with Charm Person, but animals, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, and any undead that were previously humanoid. The examples of Sorcerer dips alone are massive, but they're not the only dip worthy class. A druid can find much to gain by dipping monk, an Oracle dips Paladin. etc. etc. This dips are not for options, but pure power.
"...Which will be rare, because his accuracy will be down for MAD, flurry or 3/4BAB, and lack of any bonus. You've given up using unarmed strike to equalise enhancement with a 2nd rate weapon, which will help, but any time you run into a serious AC he's going to have a problem."
Again, I'm not sure you're thoroughly digesting what you're replying to. You keep saying "MAD". How is this an issue, if my strength is as maxed out as strength can get? I've yet to see how Flurrying equates to Flurry of Misses, so we'll continue to agree to disagree there.
And if a monk were so concerned with accuracy, then at level 12, they can do some massive retraining of feats, which isn't a bad idea anyway, to gain immediate access to Dimensional Dervish, and gain Dimensional Savant. Throw in some flanking feats/traits/whatever, and now the lost from flurry is over-negated. You may say that this is a resource a monk HAS to use, just to catch up with a standard fighter, but you have to realize, there's more to fighting enemies than one full attack round, and the average damage dealt with it.
Which goes back to the talk about the defensiveness of a monk. A fighter has a long way to catch up, and would have to spend quite a bit of resources, to find the array of defenses an average monk naturally gains.
But, if unloaded as much DPR into an opponent is your only goal, be a fighter.
"... just for my comparison: Urban Barbarian 1 / Martial Artist Monk 10 with a +1 Furious Temple Sword can have the same bonus to hit"
A one level dip into Urban Barbarian in a level 11 character means that you have a ridiculously low amount of rounds of rage per day. Meaning, the Furious weapon enhancement won't be turned on a lot of the time. It's something that sometimes can be compensated for, but yeah.
"Sensei is also very good due to Inspire Competence, but it's a support build instead of a damage dealer."
Seconded, and thirded. A well-built Sensei can do some marvelous things. Sure, we have inspire blah blah, and Qinggong Blah Blah, but if you're not a dpr focused character, then go with the Aid-another tricks. Kusarigama and Double-Chained Kama are both monk weapons with reach, which is slick with a level 2 Sensei who focuses on Aiding Another. You bodyguard it up on everyone else's turn, inpire/qinggong assist on your turns. Out of combat, you're cranking up the Rogue's disable device and the Paladin's Diplomacy. Your party will love you.
"The problem here is that some enemies will buff and some will not....This is the monk's biggest problem, hitting accurately. "
And you're almost guaranteed to be buffed. Most folk from any class usually avoid soloing a dragon.
"...An enemy at CR+4 is not inappropriate for a BBEG and..."
This. I think I've found the crux of our disagreement. According to the CR section, a CR of +3 over your parties average level is considered Epic. The highest comparable rating of CR to party level. I'll touch more on this subject in a minute.
Using HIS example of AC 40, from a CR20 creature, with a random, level 16 monk. The monk strikes the creature 2.85 times.
Flurry equals +14 to hit. A standard monk will have high strength, or high finessing dexterity. Either way, lets make our monk combat-minded. So this stat will be 26 (16 starting, +2 from racial, +2 from level (other two increases will go to Wisdom, or whatever), +6 from item enhancement. No tomes yet). +14 from flurry, +8 from stat. +4 from AoMF, enhanced weapon, or Greater Magic Weapon/Fang cast on you. Measily +1 from a feat. +27, if you tried to solo him. But you're not. This is the big bad guy, the epic boss four levels higher in CR than your party feels comfortable enough to deal with. By yourself, you'll hit less than half of the time. LAME. But, this monk, being a monk, has improved mobility, and will want to flank (helps the rogue in the process). Another +2. He may be Inspired (+3) and Hasted (+1). Already, we're up to hitting this beyond-epic boss on any d20 roll above 7. I have 9 attacks (7 from flurry, 1 from ki, 1 from Speed/Haste). 4 attacks at 60% hit rate + 2 attacks at 15%, and the remaining 3 attacks relying on vorpal hits: 5%
This is not as good as the average fighter, same level, who hits all 4 times he swings a sword, we'll say. By a bit more than a full attack extra. But, as I said, the math leans heavily in the favor of fighters in these most extreme of extreme circumstances (the one fight at the end of the campaign?).
But let's say that same monk is fighting a Hard enounter with a single creature. A single boss, CR+2 over the party. On average, he only misses on a crit fail when flurrying (average AC = 31, I roll a 1 and get 34, so there's still room to buff, and I'm still sitting pretty, with more attacks to boot).
A Hard encounter at level 16, involving 4 creatures means that not only am I still auto-hitting (even if they had +5 AC over average), but now I'm starting to shine a bit more.
You may play power games where CR+4 battles aren't uncommon, where to hit the boss, you have to have the hit an AC of 50
A non-com commoner who is riding a sprinting horse while wielding a regular composite longbow tries to hit a 3 inch bullseye that moves with a 30 dexterity bonus, 3 football fields away. You know what the effective AC is? Less than 50.
I've rambled far too much again, so not only am I going to edit out replies to questions I've been asked that aren't really that big a deal, but I'm going to stop typing here.
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@waiph, I was talking about using the elemental fist via Marid style off of a stunning fist that was backed with mantis wisdom.
This means then on this particular attack roll, you receive a +2 to hit (mantis wisdom) and expend a use if stunning fist and elemental fist. If your attack lands the Dc of the stunning fist is increased by 2 (mantis style) and you deal your elemental fist damage.
Since using elemental fist by itself means you are at your normal to hit with your normal chance of wasting the attack, I suggest using it with a mantis wisdom stunning fist attempt. I haven't seen anything saying that you cannot tack several of these types of feats into an attack or that they take an action other than declaring/announcing it's use before the role is made.
Also, if they fail the stun Dc they will be shaken and once they are shaken, if you have Marid spirit the target had a lower save bonus to resist the entangle Dc.
One hit = stun effect, shaken, burning/entangled/deafened/acid on a good day.
It sounds rather fun to me.
AH. Yes, that is how the MoMS compeats with a fighter. Using Dragon Ferocity for Str bonus and Elemental Fist, Tiger for Power attack, and Mantis for accuracy and to make the attack viable.
Still working out the numbers for the full builds, but it is looking like the Weapon Master of Many Styles wins in the Hit department, considering it gets 3 levels in fighter, and +3 from Weapon Training, without having to pay for PA out of it's hit rate.
But Boar can add damage that the MoMS will like, or snake adding attacks is good too.
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AH. Yes, that is how the MoMS compeats with a fighter. Using Dragon Ferocity for Str bonus and Elemental Fist, Tiger for Power attack, and Mantis for accuracy and to make the attack viable.
Still working out the numbers for the full builds, but it is looking like the Weapon Master of Many Styles wins in the Hit department, considering it gets 3 levels in fighter, and +3 from Weapon Training, without having to pay for PA out of it's hit rate.
But Boar can add damage that the MoMS will like, or snake adding attacks is good too.
yay, my endless MoMS up voting is paying off with people who number crunch better than me! :p
Lol, I've been on this MoMS kick for a WHILE too. never did a level-by level cause i never really considered Tiger Style and PA as worth it. But a Drunken Quiggong Master of Many Styles is a surprisingly strong build if you dip Unarmed Fighter for PA, WF, and Tiger Style at first level.
Weapon Master requires 3 levels cause you only took it for Weap Training at 3 anyway so you can use Gloves of Dueling, and it doesn't get a Style at 1st level so Progression is slowed, but you can afford better stats (Lawbringer Aasimar)
I've tried to get a basic set of builds worked out for a 2-hand Fighter, and 2 Master of Many Styles builds, one with a 1 level dip into Unarmed Fighter, and the other a 3 level dip into weapon Master Fighter.
20 Point Buys used to create fairly even-footed characters
Monk: Human
Str18 dex12 con13 int7 wis17 cha7
WeaponMasteroMS: Lawbringer Aasimar with +2 Str instead of an Sla.
Str20 dex12 con14 int7 wis17 cha7
Fighter: Human or Half-elf/orc
Str20 dex14 con14 int8 wis9 cha7
Due to the Stat bonuses that the Weapon Master gets instead of the bonus feat (cannot take a style at Lv1) he is able to afford higher Str without sacraficing any wisdom or strength
Gear that can safely reasonabely be expected to be purchased at each level following the formulas that the Primary weapon can be between 1/4th and 1/2 WBL and leaving about 1/4 unspent on gear and reserved for other items.
List has the enhancement bonus to Weapons/AoMF, Stat Belt/headbands, Enhancement to AC from Armor and Ring of Prot (AoNatArmor for fighter) and the total cost of Gear listed as necessary for the build.
Lv3:
Fighter Weapon:(+1) Stat Belt: -- Armor:-- Ring/amulet:-- 1850 mwk weapon and Plate Mail
Monk AoMF:-- Stat boost: -- Bracers:+1 Ring:-- 1000
Lv4:
Fighter Weapon:+1 Stat Belt: -- Armor:-- Ring/amulet:-- 3.5k
Monk AoMF:-- Stat boost: -- Bracers:+1 Ring:+1 3k
Lv5:
Fighter Weapon:+1 Stat Belt: +2str Armor:+1 Ring/amulet:--/-- 8.5k
Monk AoMF:-- Stat boost: +2str Bracers:+1 Ring:+1 7k
Lv6:
Fighter Weapon:+2 Stat Belt: +2str Armor:+1 Ring/amulet:+1/-- 16k
Monk AoMF:+1 Stat boost: +2str Bracers:+1 Ring:+1 11k
Lv7:
Fighter Weapon:+2 Stat Belt: +2str Armor:+1 Ring/amulet:+1/+1 18k
Monk AoMF:+1 Stat boost: +2str,+2wis Bracers:+1 Ring:+1 15k
Lv8:
Fighter Weapon:+2 Stat Belt: +2str Armor:+2 Ring/amulet:+1/+1 21k
Monk AoMF:+2 Stat boost: +2str,+2wis Bracers:+1 Ring:+1 27k
Lv9:
Fighter Weapon:+3 Stat Belt: +2str Armor:+2 Ring/amulet:+1/1 31k
Monk AoMF:+2 Stat boost: +2str,+2wis Bracers:+2 Ring:+1 30k
Lv10:
Fighter Weapon:+3 Stat Belt: +2str Armor:+4 Ring/amulet:+1/+1 Gloves 46k
Monk AoMF:+2 Stat: boost +4str,+2wis Bracers:+2 Ring:+1 Monk Robes 55k
WMoMS AoMF:+2 Stat: boost +2str,+2wis Bracers:+2 Ring:+1 Gloves 45k
Lv11:
Fighter Weapon:+3 Stat Belt: +4str Armor:+3 Ring/amulet:+1/+1 63k
Monk AoMF:+2 Stat boost: +4str,+2wis Bracers:+3 Ring:+1 60k
WMoMS AoMF:+2 Stat: boost +4str,+2wis Bracers:+2 Ring:+1 57k
Lv12:
FighterWeapon:+4 Stat Belt: +4str Armor:+3 Ring/amulet:+2/+1 83k
Monk AoMF:+3 Stat boost: +4str,+2wis Bracers:+3 Ring:+1 80k
WMoMS AoMF:+2 Stat: boost +4str,+2wis Bracers:+2 Ring:+1 Robes 70k
Lv13:
Fighter Weapon:+4 Stat Belt: +6str Armor:+3 Ring/amulet:+2/+2 99k
Monk AoMF:+3 Stat boost: +4str,+4wis Bracers:+3 Ring:+2 98k
WMoMS AoMF:+3 Stat: boost +4str,+4wis Bracers:+2 Ring:+1 102k
Lv14:
FighterWeapon:+5 Stat Belt: +6str Armor:+4 Ring/amulet:+2/+2 134k
Monk AoMF:+4 Stat boost: +4str,+4wis Bracers:+4 Ring:+2 133k
WMoMS AoMF:+4 Stat: boost +4str,+4wis Bracers:+3 Ring:+1 135k
Lv15:
Fighter Weapon:+5 Stat Belt: +6str Armor:+5 Ring/amulet:+2/+2 143k
Monk AoMF:+4 Stat boost: +6str,+4wis Bracers:+4 Ring:+2 153k
WMoMS AoMF:+4 Stat: boost +6str,+4wis Bracers:+3 Ring:+1 155k
The Monk keeps within +1 enhancement bonus of the fighter and has lower Enhancement to AC due to not having a Neck Slot available.
The WMoMS falls behind in AC but maintains stronger Hit and Damage because of the investment in Gloves of Dueling
This section lists the Attack and Damage bonus from BAB, Power Attack, Weapon Focus/Spec, Weapon Training, Style-Feats, etc. in the form of sayign the Class and giving the Hit bonus for X damage.
Lv1
Unarmed: WF, PA -1/+2, Tiger Style
+1 for 1d6+Str+2
Weapon Master: WF, PA, +2str (use 2-h weap)
+0 for 2d6+1.5str+3
2-handed: WF, PA -1/+3
+1 for 2d6+1.5str+3 WF, PA, 2-h weapon
Lv2
Monk: Tiger Pounce(M1)
+2 for 1d6+str+2
WMoMS: Dragon Style(m1)
+1 for 1d6+1.5 str+2
2-hF:
+2 for 2d6+1.5str+3
Lv3
Monk: Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity(M2)
+3 for 1d6+2str+2
wmoms: Tiger Style, Tiger Pounce (m2)
+3 for 1d6+1.5str+2
2-hF:
+3 for 2d6+2str+3
Lv4
Monk:
+4 for 1d6+2str+2
wmoms: Dragon Ferocity(f2)
+4 for 1d6+2str+2
2-hF: WeapSpec, PA-2/+6
+3 for 2d6+2str+8
Lv5
Monk: Tiger Claws, PA-2/+4
+5 for 1d8+2str+4
wmoms: Tiger Claws, PA-2/+4
+5 for 1d8+2str+4
--(FA)Tiger Claw: +4 for 2d8+4str+8
2-hF: WeapTraining +1/+1
+5 for 2d6+2str+9
Lv6
Monk:
+5 for 1d8+2str
wmoms: m4: Quiggong power Barkskin
+6 for 1d6+2str+4
2-hF:
+6 for 2d6+2str+9
--(FA):
Lv7
Monk: Mantis Style, Mantis Wisdom (m6) (2-style only)
+8 for 1d8+str+4 on stun and +2 to Stun DC
wmoms: Mantis Style
+6 for 1d8+2str+4
2-hF:
+7 for 2d6+2str+9
Lv8
Monk:
+9 for 1d8+str+4
wmoms: Mantis Wisdom(m6)
+9 for 1d8+*str+4 (on a stun)
2-hF: G-WF PA:-3/+9
+8 for 2d6+2str+12
Lv9
Monk: Elemental Fist, 3-Styling
+10 for 1d10+2str+4+2d6[elmt]
wmoms: Elemental Fist
+10 for 1d8+*str+4+2d6[elmt]
2-hF: WeapTraining +2/+2
+10 for 2d6+2str+13
Lv10
Monk: Monk Robes
+10 for 2d6+2str+4+2d6[elmt]
wmoms: WTraining +1/+1(f3) (+2/+2 gloves) PA -3/+6
+14 for 1d8+str+9+2d6[elmt]
2-hF: Gloves of Dueling (added)
+13 for 2d6+2str+15
Lv11:
Monk: Ability Focus(stun), Medusa's Wrath(M10) PA -3/+6
+11 for 1d10+2str+6+3d6[elmt] 3 hits at full BAB vs stun
wmoms: Ability Focus(Stun) 3-style(m8)
+15 for 2d60+2str+9+2d6[elmt]
2-hF:
+14 for 2d6+2str+15
Lv12
Monk:
+12 for 2d6+2str+3d6
wmoms:
+15 for 2d6+2str+9+3d6[elmt]
2-hF: G-WeapSpec, PA:-4/+12
+14 for 2d6+2str+20
Lv13
Monk:
+13 for 1d10+2str+3d6
wmoms: Roar, Medusa's Wrath (m10)
+16 for 2d6+2str+9+3d6[elmt]
2-hF: WeapTraining +3+3
+15 for 2d6+2str+21
Lv14
Monk:
+13 for 1d10+2str+3d6
2-hF:
+16 for 2d6+2str+21
Lv15
Monk:
+14 for 1d10+2str+3d6
2-hF: PA -4+16
+17 for 2d6+2str+25
Lv16
Monk: 4-style(m15) PA -4/+8
+15 for 2d6+2str+8+4d6
2-hF: PA-5/+20
+17 for 2d6+2str+29
I did not complete teh WMoMS beyond 13, as there are several options that lead to rather drastically different directions. Another Level in fighter adds 1 to Hit, and 2 to damage with Weapon SPec, but further delays the ability to use 4 styles and the full bonus frojm Barkskin Quiggong power. So I stopped there.
I'm looking into compiling all this information, and making the assumption that the Fighter is using Regular Plate. This will include HP, AC, Hit and Damage. Due to low Int, skill points will all be quite low with these builds, and Saves will not be taken into account as the monk's are guaranteed to be higher across the board.
I'm also not accounting for other monk features from Drunken master or Quiggong with the exception of Barkskin at Monk 4 to add to the Monk's AC
"Depending on DM fiat to make your character idea work is not ideal, is it? It's basically using house-rules to fix the monk."
This comment in particular makes me question how much you're actually considering what I'm saying.
I'm reading, but you are relying on some fast and loose rule..interpretations, shall we say?
I suggest a DM fiat to change the flavor of a magic item used...of a magic item that is in no way neccesary to the build of the monk. How, then, do you draw the conclusion that me suggesting if you don't like the flavor of the magic item, and that the flavor can be changed, that the monk fails unless DMs are willing to make up rules for you?
Because you are doing something outside the standard rule-set.
"OK, so 10 attacks then. Sorry, but I took a monk through 8th to 13th level with a grand total of one successful stunning fist attack in the entire period, and it wasn't a badly optimised monk either. Those extra two attacks are not to be relied upon; even the best build for stunning fist I've seen on these boards had only around a 30% chance of pulling it off against CR-equivelant enemy on any given attempt, so at most that's 10.6 attacks a round. "
Noted, but you almost have to remember Gentle Rest. Against a big bad dude, I will deplete my stores of gentle rest to keep him continuously staggered (no save throw), which triggers Medusa's wrath. Against piddly kinda-big bad guys, I'll throw Stunning Fists, and not be too worried if they don't succeed.
Gentle Rest, like other SLAs, requires a standard action to activate. You can't use Gentle Rest with a flurry, therefore, and by the time you can flurry, it's worn off in most cases. If you are ruling that it goes off when you make your first flurry attack, you are making a house-rule.
And to forestall the "It just says touches it doesn't say how!" just remember how many people your character bumped into this morning or shook hands with - did he stagger them all? No? That's because it also takes an effort of will to activate the ability, and that's why unless stated otherwise, it's a standard action by standard rules.
"Also, remember that one of the design parameters set by Paizo when they made Pathfinder was that every class should be able to function well as a pure class, that dipping should only open up options, not power. That's why these examples make me sad...because yes, you have built a great "monk" but at the price of giving up being a monk."
Well, if that was their intention (and I've seen the desire to do so through the rules), then they have failed.
My point exactly.
If you are a caster of any type, then there is honestly little reason to not dip sorcerer. You focus on evocation damaging spells? For a one level dip (a one level loss in power, granted, but made up for with Magical Knack, for the most part) you can effectively cast your spells near-Maximized, for free. ...which stacks with Maximize Spell. You're an enchanter? Serpentine and Undead bloodlines. Now you can charm not only humanoids with Charm Person, but animals, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, and any undead that were previously humanoid. The examples of Sorcerer dips alone are massive, but they're not the only dip worthy class. A druid can find much to gain by dipping monk, an Oracle dips Paladin. etc. etc. This dips are not for options, but pure power.
But you do not need them to be functional in your role. With a monk you do need the dips to be functional.
"...Which will be rare, because his accuracy will be down for MAD, flurry or 3/4BAB, and lack of any bonus. You've given up using unarmed strike to equalise enhancement with a 2nd rate weapon, which will help, but any time you run into a serious AC he's going to have a problem."
Again, I'm not sure you're thoroughly digesting what you're replying to. You keep saying "MAD". How is this an issue, if my strength is as maxed out as strength can get? I've yet to see how Flurrying equates to Flurry of Misses, so we'll continue to agree to disagree there.
You can indeed max out your hitting stat with a monk, but you pay for it. You then have to reduce what you put into your other scores that effect either damage (strength), dexterity (AC - no armour, remember), wisdom (AC again, and all your monk abilities), constitution (you only have d8 hit dice), etc.
So yes, you can eliminate this factor...at a price that no-one else has to pay.
And if a monk were so concerned with accuracy, then at level 12, they can do some massive retraining of feats, which isn't a bad idea anyway, to gain immediate access to Dimensional Dervish, and gain Dimensional Savant. Throw in some flanking feats/traits/whatever, and now the lost from flurry is over-negated. You may say that this is a resource a monk HAS to use, just to catch up with a standard fighter, but you have to realize, there's more to fighting enemies than one full attack round, and the average damage dealt with it.
There is indeed, but when all those other factors are gone, that's what you need to have to fall back on. It's what every other combat class relies on. The monk doesn't have it, and his other abilities are...well...not that great in all honesty.
Which goes back to the talk about the defensiveness of a monk. A fighter has a long way to catch up, and would have to spend quite a bit of resources, to find the array of defenses an average monk naturally gains.
You assume that the monk's defences are required by the fighter, when they are not; the fighter can get to "good enough" defences quite easily, because at the end of the day DPR is a defence all on it's own - dead enemies cannot attack you. The monk's defences are very good, but they are not as good as the paladin's. The paladin gets good offence AND good defence, and he gets spells and healing abilities too (and he self heals as a swift action, can heal others, remove conditions etc). On the balance of things, the monk's defences do not leave him better off when the game favours offence over defence.
But, if unloaded as much DPR into an opponent is your only goal, be a fighter.
It's not a question of DPR alone, although many in these monk threads try to make it that way. DPR is a factor of several other features, notably accuracy, damage, and ability to get past DR. What the monk lacks more than anything is accuracy - in itself a factor of several things - and if you fix this the DPR problem goes away sufficiently. I do not look to make the monk as ca[able in DPR terms as the fighter, but I do want the monk able to easily play on the same field as all the other combat classes, ALL of whom can deal significant DPR without dipping multiple classes and straining the game to the limit.
"The problem here is that some enemies will buff and some will not....This is the monk's biggest problem, hitting accurately. "
And you're almost guaranteed to be buffed. Most folk from any class usually avoid soloing a dragon.
Why are you guaranteed to be buffed? Not every party includes a buffer. Every other class can stand on their own without being buffed (unless they provide their own), why should the monk have to rely on it?
"...An enemy at CR+4 is not inappropriate for a BBEG and..."
This. I think I've found the crux of our disagreement. According to the CR section, a CR of +3 over your parties average level is considered Epic. The highest comparable rating of CR to party level. I'll touch more on this subject in a minute.
You haven't played many adventure paths, then. In each adventure you regularly find CRs of APL+4 or even higher foes, often at the end of sections, let alone the end of the module or adventure.
Sorry, no time to respond to the rest of your post, will try and double back to it later!
This is not as good as the average fighter, same level, who hits all 4 times he swings a sword, we'll say. By a bit more than a full attack extra. But, as I said, the math leans heavily in the favor of fighters in these most extreme of extreme circumstances (the one fight at the end of the campaign?).
The dramatic fight that matters the most, you mean? Yep, been there with a monk several times, and it's sad when you realise you have a combat class that cannot fight. These are not "end of adventure" fights, these are end-of-section fights. I've seen end of adventure fights at higher CRs, with buffs on top.
But let's say that same monk is fighting a Hard enounter with a single creature. A single boss, CR+2 over the party. On average, he only misses on a crit fail when flurrying (average AC = 31, I roll a 1 and get 34, so there's still room to buff, and I'm still sitting pretty, with more attacks to boot).
A Hard encounter at level 16, involving 4 creatures means that not only am I still auto-hitting (even if they had +5 AC over average), but now I'm starting to shine a bit more.
You may play power games where CR+4 battles aren't uncommon, where to hit the boss, you have to have the hit an AC of 50
They are called adventure paths.
Also, you are running into problem 2: DR.
At this kind of level, you run into enemies with DR a lot. Now your fighter is swinging a +5 weapon, so he's getting past silver/cold iron, adamantine, and alignment-based DR. You have a +4 weapon and ki-strike, so you are bypassing magic, silver/cold iron, adamantine, and lawful. Problem is you are most likely facing something with DR/good & cold iron or DR/good & silver, so you take a huge hit to your damage on each strike.
Here's the problem with the monk: it was made to deliver a lot of attacks rather than powerful attacks, but then ends up getting less hits (and that's why it's a flurry of misses) than the guy with half the attacks. That guy crashes straight through the DR of the target as well, while the monk often doesn't. For this concept to work effectively in practice you need better accuracy and better DR-bypass.
So essentially, in that final, dramatic fight, you are contributing what, exactly? Everyone else is being the hero, you are an also-ran. Sure, you can provide flanking IF there is a rogue but then he can get into flank position very easily on his own anyway. You could try maneuvers, but things at that level make maneuvers very unreliable.
Paizo are aware of the DR problem, but instead of fixing it in the monk they have given the brawler, the non-magical unarmed fighter, the ability to bypass the alignment DR of his choice, "because reasons." The accuracy problem hasn't been addressed at all. You see, in that final fight if you could reliably deliver a stunning fist it would be worth it, but you can't because of MAD and accuracy.
And it's not the just the fighter that outclasses the monk, it's every other combat class.
(AC 50?):
...when the optimizing gets that extreme, and the challenges become greater than great, the intentions of the rules breaks down. Why do you think epic levels in 3.5 made everything wonky? It wasn't made with epic levels in mind.
About AC40 at level 13 is one I've faced - a seriously buffed enemy at the end of an adventure. The party paladin could hit and damage, the ranger filled her with arrows, even the magus got some good ones in, but my monk couldn't come even close. In fact my biggest contribution in the whole fight was to trip the dominated paladin when he attacked the ranger and keep him out of the fight while the ranger finished the job.
The thing is that simple things can push up AC of enemies very easily. That AC38 ancient red dragon can cast shield, drink a potion of mage armor and wear that +2 amulet of natural armour from his hoard for an AC of 48 at CR19, and as he's a genius-level intellect there's really no good reason he wouldn't if he knows you are out to kill him. The other martials can deal with this, they still have a fighting chance even if the party casters blow their debuffs and the dragon dispels their buffs, but the monk is right out in the cold here.
I've rambled far too much again, so not only am I going to edit out replies to questions I've been asked that aren't really that big a deal, but I'm going to stop typing here.
It's been an interesting debate, and you have made me think and that's a good thing.
"Depending on DM fiat to make your character idea work is not ideal, is it? It's basically using house-rules to fix the monk."
This comment in particular makes me question how much you're actually considering what I'm saying.
I'm reading, but you are relying on some fast and loose rule..interpretations, shall we say?
Again, you're saying I'm relying on this. Which, again, makes me wonder how much you're listening to what I'm saying.
"OK, so 10 attacks then. Sorry, but I took a monk through 8th to 13th level with a grand total of one successful stunning fist attack in the entire period, and it wasn't a badly optimised monk either. Those extra two attacks are not to be relied upon; even the best build for stunning fist I've seen on these boards had only around a 30% chance of pulling it off against CR-equivelant enemy on any given attempt, so at most that's 10.6 attacks a round. "
Noted, but you almost have to remember Gentle Rest. Against a big bad dude, I will deplete my stores of gentle rest to keep him continuously staggered (no save throw), which triggers Medusa's wrath. Against piddly kinda-big bad guys, I'll throw Stunning Fists, and not be too worried if they don't succeed.
Gentle Rest, like other SLAs, requires a standard action to activate. You can't use Gentle Rest with a flurry, therefore, and by the time you can flurry, it's worn off in most cases. If you are ruling that it goes off when you make your first flurry attack, you are making a house-rule.
And to forestall the "It just says touches it doesn't say how!" just remember how many people your character bumped into this morning or...
Nah, reading the build will show how I use Gentle Rest in conjunction with unarmed strikes. But either way, I guess. This debate has lost its charm for me.
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Here's a build I was working on. This character is very multiclassed and is intended to be a Pathfinder Society Character.
8F2M3R2Alchemist1: Vivisectionist: extracts, mutagen, Sneak Attack 1d6, Throw Anything, extra bombs: PFS alchemists do not get Brew Potion; they get Extra Bombs. I have wondered what it means to have the Extra Bombs feat when...
One problem with your build, vivisectionist isn't PFS legal.
Again, you're saying I'm relying on this. Which, again, makes me wonder how much you're listening to what I'm saying.I'm reading, but you are relying on some fast and loose rule..interpretations, shall we say?"Depending on DM fiat to make your character idea work is not ideal, is it? It's basically using house-rules to fix the monk."
This comment in particular makes me question how much you're actually considering what I'm saying.
Perhaps relying is too strong a term, but a lot of rules interpretations are coming in here.
Nah, reading the build will show how I use Gentle Rest in conjunction with unarmed strikes. But either way, I guess. This debate has lost its charm for me."OK, so 10 attacks then. Sorry, but I took a monk through 8th to 13th level with a grand total of one successful stunning fist attack in the entire period, and it wasn't a badly optimised monk either. Those extra two attacks are not to be relied upon; even the best build for stunning fist I've seen on these boards had only around a 30% chance of pulling it off against CR-equivelant enemy on any given attempt, so at most that's 10.6 attacks a round. "
Noted, but you almost have to remember Gentle Rest. Against a big bad dude, I will deplete my stores of gentle rest to keep him continuously staggered (no save throw), which triggers Medusa's wrath. Against piddly kinda-big bad guys, I'll throw Stunning Fists, and not be too worried if they don't succeed.
Gentle Rest, like other SLAs, requires a standard action to activate. You can't use Gentle Rest with a flurry, therefore, and by the time you can flurry, it's worn off in most cases. If you are ruling that it goes off when you make your first flurry attack, you are making a house-rule.
And to forestall the "It just says touches it doesn't say how!" just remember how many people your character bumped into this morning or...
If I could find it again I would. Without doing so I would guess that either you have got a way of generating extra actions (I think there are some new spells that allow that), or else you use a held action to deliver the touch just before your initiative turn, I don't see it working.
How are you getting Combat Expertise at level 1 with a 12 Int? Just want to make sure I am not missing something.
I’m not sure about the wisdom of planning your character so comprehensively so far in advance: pfs characters don’t even go past level 12, and if you aren’t playing pfs, how can you be so confident that you will be able to get particular kinds of magic items? Every DM is different, and there must be aspects of your build that just will not be applicable to some random DM’s campaign. And if you are confident of your DM’s opinion, what do you even need our opinions for?
Not playing PFS, but even then, the build can hold its own pretty much most levels. My DM allows pretty much any item I can buy, as long as a local city is big enough to sell it. And while I love opinions on the build, I was just showcasing the build to the OP.
>19*Improved Critical (Unarmed): Double threat range of unarmed attacksPerhaps I am disqualifying myself here, but I must admit, I have never been sanguine about Crit builds. You need to take and Exotic Weapon feat to even use a Katana, which is just a Long Sword with a +1 threat range. By taking Improved Crit, you threaten 30% of the time instead of 20% now, but the AC of some random target you crit on could be anything. So, lets say half your threats you crit on. So instead of taking Katana with Weapon Focus and Improved Crit, you might take Bastard Sword with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. The Bastard Sword gives you +1 damage with every hit, Specialization gives you +2. And you still might crit sometimes. I just think you average more damage/round by spending feats on other things than critting.
I understand I am in the minority by not being excited about critting.
Well, I get all three feats as bonus feats (weapon prof, weapon focus, and improved crit Katana) through monk levels, and a 1 level dip into cleric. And while I agree, other builds can boast more dps, this was a fun venture into a pure crit-based build. Lots of attacks, really high crit range, and lots of goodies if I crit (as well as the x2 damage).
Why be a human with orc heritage, when you can just be a half orc and get other stuff?
Good catch. He started out as a half-orc, but I changed to human. I believe the initial reasoning was for an additional +2 to wisdom, and a mix-match of Favored Class bonuses. Both reasons are no longer valid in this build, so going back to Half-Orc is probably the better option mechanically (and I still like the flavor better).
It's pretty nonstandard, but it's well-described in the rules, and anyway, it's up to the DM....You can make your armor intelligent for surprisingly cheap, and ...
As a DM, I don't like players creating "new" enchantments from unique items, or creating custom intelligent items. While a lot of DMs do, and my DM might, I dunno. Just feels...kinda cheap. So I don't do those things when building my characters.
I think that before you can take Medusa’s Wrath, you have to take Gorgon’s Fist, and before you can take Gorgon’s Fist, you need to take Scorpion Strike.
Monk bonus feat, so it doesn't require and prereq feats, as I understand it.
Why are you taking Hungry Ghost or Quigong monk instead of Master of Many Styles?
Again, it's all about the goal of the build. Lots of attacks + high crit range + lots of bonuses when I crit.
You are taking levels in Cleric and Barbarian. Those classes can wear armor, and armor costs monks their Flurry. MOMS doesn’t get flurry anyway, and you are taking Style feats anyway. Your build calls for Bracers of Armor +8. What is that going to cost? 8 squared X 1000 = 64000gp! You could wear +1 Leather Lamellar Armor, and a large shield, also get +8 to your AC, and still retain your Evasion Ability for something like 1200. For Fighter, think about Unarmed Fighter. Unarmed fighters get one bonus style feat with even fewer restrictions than MOMS. I suspect Crane Style will Blend very well with Snake Style.
Losing Flurry means losing a poop-ton of attacks, which isn't what my build wants. A large shield means I can't Crane Riposte punishing kicks, making a single attacker have problems continuing his full attack.
Also, I noticed you are taking some special feat or ability or something that lets you be nonlawful and be a Monk. I missed the thing you took that let you take levels in Barbarian without being Chaotic. Remember that when you change your alignment to nonlawful, you retain your Monk abilities. You are just unable to gain further levels. Perhaps if you organize your character build so that you can finish with your Monk levels then move on to taking Barbarian Levels and do some of the other things in this paragraph, you could free up feat slots to take other cool feats.
Barbarian doesn't require me to be chaotic, just non-lawful. My alignment doesn't ever change, and I don't like planning alignment changes in advance, just to fit mechanics. Again, seems kinda number-crunching more than flavor, and for me, if it doesn't have cool flavor, it's not worth playing.
I don’t know how much my vamping on your character build is appreciated. I hope I'm adding value in some way.
Ah, dude, any discussion on him, or advice, is more than welcome. Don't mind at all.
But, against an enemy that is immune to crits, I take naps, basically. Against everything else, 10 attacks per turn, high crit range...any crit that I confirm, I deal 2d6 bleed, regain a round of rage, regain a ki point, heal 30 hp, blah blah. The build, as I've mentioned before, has been through a lot of revisions, and has a lot of variations. It started out with a lot more barbarian levels, and those feats that turns my dodge bonus for fighting defensively into DR. Either way, I'm really tired.
Oh, and real quick:
"Perhaps relying is too strong a term, but a lot of rules interpretations are coming in here."
No rules interpretations. The only thing I was suggesting was a flavor change from robot arm to implanted magic item. No mechanical change. The ONLY reason this was brought up was if you didn't care for the flavor. Not only is this change unnecessary (there's no reason to change the flavor), the item itself is unnecessary.
"If I could find it again I would. Without doing so I would guess that either you have got a way of generating extra actions (I think there are some new spells that allow that), or else you use a held action to deliver the touch just before your initiative turn, I don't see it working. "
Conductive weapon enchantment. And not mentioned in the build, but another viable option, is Domain Strike (which could be retrained at later levels).
Oh, and real quick:
"Perhaps relying is too strong a term, but a lot of rules interpretations are coming in here."
No rules interpretations. The only thing I was suggesting was a flavor change from robot arm to implanted magic item. No mechanical change. The ONLY reason this was brought up was if you didn't care for the flavor. Not only is this change unnecessary (there's no reason to change the flavor), the item itself is unnecessary.
"If I could find it again I would. Without doing so I would guess that either you have got a way of generating extra actions (I think there are some new spells that allow that), or else you use a held action to deliver the touch just before your initiative turn, I don't see it working. "
Conductive weapon enchantment. And not mentioned in the build, but another viable option, is Domain Strike (which could be retrained at later levels).
Then I am impressed. However, to get this build you've proved the second half of my point, that the level of system mastery required to build an effective monk is beyond the pale. You have to dip to get a domain power, then add in the correct weapon enhancement, to get all those attacks. You've also cheesed out by fighting a foe that in effect is always staggered - I would not be surprised if that gets errata'd as it makes dip and a conductive weapon auto-win for ANY melee class.
" I would not be surprised if that gets errata'd as it makes dip and a conductive weapon auto-win for ANY melee class. "
Unless your wisdom is only 8. Then, with a conductive weapon, you only get to activate Gentle Rest once a day, making the purchase of the enhancement not even worth it. Domain Strike relies on unarmed attacks, as I understand it, so there's more synergy with monks, there. But with someone that focuses on Wisdom, and keeps it high, it's quite a good combo.
"Although, I must point out that the channeling enchantment is NOT necessary."
As stated already, if I used it in conjunction with an unarmed strike, which is legal, it'd still use up a standard action, and cannot be used with a full attack action. The enhancement, or the Domain Strike feat, allows you to use it when full attacking.
"Also, Mr. Pear, I disagree that your character must "take a nap" when facing monsters with DR."
I may have mistyped, but either way, I meant enemies that are immune to critical hits. DR isn't much of a problem, as my katana functions at +5 when I'm raging. It's adamantine, I can ki strike with it at earlier levels (which bypasses some DR), so he's not hurting too bad, there.
"Pear wants to keep Flurry, but now his armor costs a whole lot."
That it does, but my AC isn't too hideous, in the end.
AC 41 (10+5(DEX)+7(WIS)+5(Deflection)+8(Armor)+1(Dodge)+5(Class))
AC flux:
+4 Dodge (Fighting Defensively)
+5 Natural Armor (Barksksin)
-4 Wild Attacking
-2 Raging
Even then, I have the defensive Crane Riposte + Stunning Fist/Gentle Rest/Punishing Kick combo. "I attack." "Kay, I attempt to deflect, and if I do, I'll AoO with a Punishing Kick. *rolls* You're now 5 feet away from me, and prone." Or stunned. Or staggered. Full attack negated. It's not the holy of holies of defense, but it helps, ya know?
And before it's brought up, my attack penalty for fighting defensively, if you'll notice, is -0. Non-existent.
And the last note on my defense: I'm, in theory, constantly regaining hp. Every crit I score while raging heals me 30 hp. Heck, every time I land a melee strike, I gain 6 temporary hitpoints, which works great with Vicious ;), so usually there's a couple left over.
"In addition, it seems that multiclassing is a good way to better your saving throws."
Want to point out, here, that another favored variation of this build is Hospiler Paladin 4, Crusader Cleric 1, Hungry Ghost and Champion of Irori. Lots of energy channeling (two pools worth) which can be turned into ki via a Meditation Crystal...a whopping hundred gold item, saves increase, and Smiting and Lay on Hands that can be triggered with my near-infinite supply of ki. Note, I can also smite chaos with this champion (fey, etc). And, as a good bonus, I have access to the spell "Bless Weapon", which allows me to auto-confirm crits against evil folk. Sure, it's only a few times a day...unless I rack up on the cheap magical items. 10 pearls of power makes it better, and for easier access, I can get some Implanted Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stones. Each count as a ring of spellstoring, storing a level 1 spell. So, when I wake up and meditate, I fill up all my ioun stones with Bless Weapon, and use them as needed during combat. Talk about MAD, though. My starting stat block was looking like:
STR 15
DEX 12
CON 10
INT 7
WIS 14 +2 Racial
CHA 16
Which really, really isn't too pretty, for my taste. Besides, except for intelligence, I want to keep every stat as boosted as I can, throughout my career.
But, there are even variations of him. One could do without the cleric level, but they would lose Gentle Rest, a whole pool of channel energies (so basically, 11 ki points at the end of his career), Weapon Prof and Focus on virtually any weapon I want (which would be the Katana)...it'd be a lot to lose.
Also, note that the Quivering Palm slot for a Qinggong swap is still open. I was strongly convinced it would be Cold Ice Strike, until the nerfed the spell. And, when I realized that it's probably a standard action to cast, even though the spell is cast as swift. But, 15d6 damage in a 30 line for 2 ki (Ring of Ki Mastery is a must for this build), any creature that dies because of this regains me 1 point of ki...it still may be worth throwing in the build. Maybe against swarms or something?
And you have to love the Abundant Step. I didn't go the dimensional agility route cause I was so strapped for feats, but even without them, it's a great ability. As a move action, I 'port 1000 feet. If I start the combat with a potion of Accelerate, well, now I can port wherever, then full attack, for several turns. Pretty sweet mobility. I don't like the potions of Accelerate, because I can't make/cast them, whatever, but hey, if I can find a huge depot of them to buy, I'm all over it.
Why are you healing 30 hp on a crit? Life funnel only heals 15 hp.
[Edit] Lesser Celestial Totem, never mind, I found it.
Oops, nevermind. I can not 'port then full attack, even with Accelerate potions, unless I had the first feat, "Dimensional Agility". Crap, now I'm kinda wondering if I need to make room for it :\
The only thing I think you could afford to drop from that list is Keen Scent. While it's a great ability to have, I don't think it's one of the abilities you need to have.
I'm just wondering which is better, then. First round, I can slap Oil of Bless Weapon on my blade, then port in. Second round, full attack.
Man. I didn't want to get rid of scent. Now I'm wondering if I can tweak the build to get ANY more free feats, heh
I was also trying to remember a Race Trait. Thought it may have even been half-orc or orc, that gives me a limited scent ability, something like scent but at half-range. Couldn't find it, though. Having picked up a drawback, I find myself having these traits:
- (Racial) Adopted (Aasimar) - Enlightened Warrior
- (Combat) Threatening Defender
- (Magic) Magical Knack (Cleric)
And I could easily give up Magical Knack. It's fairly worthless to this build, as I see it. Oh well, I'll keep working on him. Rewriting him now, as a Half-Orc.
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Other than the Monk/Druid I proposed... This seems like a pretty powerful build as well(for a Mostly Monk character... trying to stick to the OP guideline). You could certainly throw in the Cleric+Repose Domain+Conductive as well to really stun/prone/stagger/flat-foot/insta-kill all day long! I recommend a Dex/Wis build, preferably going with IUS attacks and a Guided Amulet. A Monk's Robe would be nice to have, to keep your IUS and AC maxed out. It's also a possibility to throw in a level of Wizard to get access to Mage Armor/Shield, and maybe put points into UMD for the sake of Strong Jaw(wand). Dangerously Curious could aid in getting that UMD up to par as well.(edit) Seems pretty sexy to me, and not too expensive! It may even be wise to throw in a level of Unarmed Fighter purely for the sake of free access to the Snake Style feat.
The only thing better than Repose Domain, would be Charm Domain. Daze > Stagger. I can't believe Conductive is a +1 bonus..
Format: Feat -> Monk Ability -> Bonus Feat
LvL 1 Weapon Finesse -> IUS, FoB, Redirection -> Combat Reflexes
LvL 2 xxxx -> Evasion -> Unbalancing Counter
LvL 3 Snake Style -> Flowing Dodge, maneuver Training, Still Mind ->
LvL 4 xxxx -> Ki Pool(Magic), Barkskin -> xxxx
LvL 5 Stunning Fist -> Elusive Target(Basic), Ki Stand -> xxxx
LvL 6 xxxx -> xxxx -> Improved Trip
LvL 7 Snake Sidewind -> Ki Pool(Cold Iron/Silver), Power Attack -> xxxx
LvL 8 xxxx -> xxxx -> xxxx
LvL 9 Snake Fang -> Improved Evasion -> xxxx
LvL 10 xxxx -> Ki Pool(Lawful) -> Improved Reposition
LvL 11 Dimensional Agility -> Elusive Target(Advanced) -> xxxx
LvL 12 xxxx -> Abundant Step -> xxxx
LvL 13 Dimensional Assault -> Diamond Soul -> xxxx
LvL 14 xxxx -> xxxx -> Ki Throw
LvL 15 Dimensional Dervish -> Volley(edit) -> xxxx
LvL 16 xxxx -> Ki Pool(Adamantite) -> xxxx
LvL 17 Dimensional Savant(edit) -> Diamond Body, Quivering Palm -> xxxx
Some of the feats may not line up properly, because they are a "later down the road re-training"
Also, if one uses Guided, it negates the need for Weapon Finesse and that can be retrained too. (edit)
Gentle Rest is a Spell-like Ability (Sp), this means that unless it says otherwise, it uses up a standard action to cast. See spells like Touch of Idiocy, Shocking Grasp and the Touch Spells in the magic section. Gentle Rest, because it's touch 'spell' lets you cast the spell, and make a melee touch attack as a part of casting the spell.
It actually doesn't say otherwise. By saying otherwise it would say something like, "As a swift action, you can touch a creature as a melee touch attack that causes the creature to become filled with feelings of lethargy, leaving them staggered for 1 round."
Unless something says otherwise, everything is assumed to take a standard action to activate. Gentle Rest contains no such text that states it uses a different action, so it reverts to the rules of spells and spell-like abilities.
Yeah all that the melee touch part of the description means is that this particular spell like ability requires a melee touch attack to work. Doesn't change the action type.
Now combine it with a conductive weapon and/or Domain Strike, and then it can mixed in with a Flurry (though in the latter case at the cost of your swift action for the round).
@Scott Wilhelm. I'll echo Dabbler's sentiments. While your build certainly appears to be an effective build, and while in action it will "look" like a monk, you still have the issue that in making a really good "monk" you only used a third of your overall levels in monk. Quite frankly, I think the fact that you have combined four classes to make your monk is yet another indicator of system mastery requirement. Your average newbie player who wants an effective monk will not come up with your build unless given it by someone else.
That being said, it still looks like a fun and effective build.
I will say that one thing that bothers me from the roleplay aspect of the monk is that as many others have pointed out, most monk builds really are dependent not just on equipment, but specific equipment in order to be effective. By and large, the monk weapons tend to be subpar (particularly the ones that don't require the monk to use a feat) and their other gear slots tend to be pretty much pigeonholed from the get go. While this will always be true to a certain extent with most classes, it seems as though most other classes at least have more flexibility in their gear.
To be fair, in a lot of games (and in PFS in particular) this isn't a huge issue because the GM will give the players pretty much carte blance when it comes to obtaining items so long as they can afford them. However, that does take a bit of the roleplay element out of it and there are a lot of GMs (and players) that prefer the "This merchant has these particular items available for purchase." This style feels more realistic to a lot of players/GMs, but also seems to have a harsher impact on the monk than most classes.
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And again, these stats do not include things like
wand of Alter Self, Strong Jaws, Monstrous Physique I (4 armed mutant Sahaugin), Bull Strength, Cat's Grace, or Lockjaw (Probably not to prosecute a grapple, I'd get armor spikes for extra damage, then let them go each time.)Brawler Armor, Amulets of Mighty Fists, Enchanted Gauntlets are all possible magic items for this character, but not included in the build.
Strong Jaw would not stack with Lead Blades.
It's one size bonus to your actual size, and one to your damage die. Everything else seems pretty legit though. I like what you're putting together.
Also keep in mind that Enhancement bonuses don't stack with one another. So if you have a belt of incredible dexterity, it won't stack it's enhancement bonus with Cat's Grace.
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I'll do a standard monk build that's solid. 20pt build. Going to optimize a little. 20th level.
Race: Oni-Tiefling +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Chr, Darkvision, 5 resistance to fire, cold and electricity, Alter Self once per day.
Class: 20 Qinggong Monk strait up.
Stats:
Str: 17 +2 racial + 5 level +6 enh + 4 book = 34 = +12 bonus
Dex: 14 + 6 enh = 20 = +5 bonus
Con: 13 +6 enh = +4 bonus
Int: 8 = -1 bonus 3 skills/level
Wis: 14 + 2 racial + 6 enh +4 book = 26 = +8 bonus
Chr: 7 = -2 bonus.
Gear: 880,000gp
Belt: Belt of Physical Perfection +6 Str, Dex, Con (144,000gp)
Body: None (was thinking of a Robe of Stoneskin 60k gp similar to belt but transferred but not PFS)
Chest: Unfettered Shirt (1/day freedom of movement)(10,000gp)
Eyes: none
Feet: Boots of Speed/ Cloudwalking (18,600gp) (combined for higher cost - otherwise Cloudwalking)
Hands: Déliquescent Gloves: (8,000gp) 1d6 Acid+can hit oozes.
Head: Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier +1 AC + removes a crit once per day. (5,000gp)
Headband: Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6 (36,000gp)
Neck: Amulet of the Mighty Fist +5 (100,000gp)
Shoulders: Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000gp)
Wrist: Bracers of Armour +8 (64,000gp)
Ring: Ring of Protection +5 (50,000gp)
Ring: Ring of Ki Mastery (10,000)
Misc: Handy Haversack (2,000 gp)
Misc: Ioun Stone +1 Comptetence all (30,000gp)
Misc: Ioun Stone +1 Morale all (28,000gp)
Misc: +4 Str. Book (110,000gp)
Misc: +4 Wis. Book(110,000gp)
Misc: Stone of Good Luck +1 luck bonus to saves and skills(10,000gp)
Misc: Ioun Stone +1 Insight AC.(5,000gp)
Wand of Strong Jaw: (15,600gp)
2xPotion of See Invisibility (600gp)
Total: 808,800gp
Feats:
1st: Armour of the Pits (+2 nat AC), Dodge
2nd: Combat Reflexes
3rd: Dragon Style
5th: Dragon Ferocity
6th: Improved Bull Rush
7th: Weapon Focus
9th: Teamwork feat: Outflank
10th: Improved Critical
11: Improved Initiative
13: Dimensional Agility
14: Medusa's Wrath
15: Dimensional Assalt
17: Dimensional Dervish
18: Snatch Arrows
19: Dimensional Savant
Qinggong Abilites:
4th: fall ---> Barkskin
Quivering Palm ---> Ki Leech
Perfect Self ---> Restoration
Attack bonus: 18 (base) + 13 (str) +5 (amulet) + 2 (Ioun Stones) + 4 (Flanking) + (1 WF) -1 (Size)= 42
Attacks: 43(haste)/43/43/38/38/33/33/28 (one less if not hasted nor boots)
5 attacks of opportunity if they present themselves
Damage: 19 (Str) + 36 (8d8 Enlarge + Strong Jaw) + 5 (amulet) + 3.5(Déliquescent Gloves) = 63.5
AC: 10 (Base) + 8 (Wisdom) + 5 (Dex) + 5 (Deflection) +8 Armour + 7 (Natural) +5 (Monk) +1 (Dodge) + 1 (Ioun Stone) +1 (Jinsana of Fortunate Soldier) +1 (Haste) -2 (size and dex negatives for enlarge) = 50
Damage Potential = 8 x 63.5 = 508 damage a round. Without using power attack, only cheese being Stong Jaw. An extra 127 damage if Medusa's Wrath hits with a Stunning Fist.
Saves:
Fort: 12 (Base) + 5 (Cloak) +2 (Ioun Stones) +1 (Luck Stone) + 4 (Stat) = 24
Reflex: 12 (Base) +5 (Cloak) +2 (Ioun Stones) +1(Luck Stone) + 5 (Stat) +1 (Haste)-1 (enlarge dex pen) = 25
Will: 12 (Base) +5 (Cloak) +2 (Ioun Stones) +1 (Luck Stone) +8 (Stat) = 28
Skills points: 60
Perception: (20 + 8 Wis + 3 Class)+31
Acrobatics: 5 + 5 dex + Class= 13
UMD (20 - 2 Chr) = 18 only need a 2 to use the Wand of Strong Jaw.
Others scattered to make one good at stuff, not great but good. Stealth, class skill Knowledge, etc.
The whole point of this character is to kill anything anywhere. Using Dimensional Dervish and 1 point Abundant Step is basically an improved pounce. 8 Attacks and hopefully something will go down, giving back the Ki Point. AC is very good. Saves are great. Can attack anywhere flying with cloud boots. Attack bonus is what a non-optimized fighter would have while power attacking, maybe a little less. Immune to poisons and diseases. Excellent spell resistance and saves making it very difficult for save and suck spells to go through. Can use Dimensional Dervish to move outside of attack range of baddies after finished attacking if they are still up. Unfettered shirt gets me out of bad things if I do fail a save or grapple once per day. Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier saves me from a crit once per day if they get through the armour.
Many improvements can be had with the extra 71,200gp, need more perception or UMD? or save up for the +4 dex book or con book.
What are your thoughts?
I'll do a standard monk build that's solid. 20pt build. Going to optimize a little. 20th level.
Race: Oni-Tiefling +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Chr, Darkvision, 5 resistance to fire, cold and electricity, Alter Self once per day.
Class: 20 Qinggong Monk strait up.Stats:
Str: 17 +2 racial + 5 level +6 enh + 4 book = 34 = +12 bonus
Dex: 14 + 6 enh = 20 = +5 bonus
Con: 13 +6 enh = +4 bonus
Int: 8 = -1 bonus 3 skills/level
Wis: 14 + 2 racial + 6 enh +4 book = 26 = +8 bonus
Chr: 7 = -2 bonus.Gear: 880,000gp
Belt: Belt of Physical Perfection +6 Str, Dex, Con (144,000gp)
Body: None (was thinking of a Robe of Stoneskin 60k gp similar to belt but transferred but not PFS)
Chest: Unfettered Shirt (1/day freedom of movement)(10,000gp)
Eyes: none
Feet: Boots of Speed/ Cloudwalking (18,600gp) (combined for higher cost - otherwise Cloudwalking)
Hands: Déliquescent Gloves: (8,000gp) 1d6 Acid+can hit oozes.
Head: Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier +1 AC + removes a crit once per day. (5,000gp)
Headband: Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6 (36,000gp)
Neck: Amulet of the Mighty Fist +5 (100,000gp)
Shoulders: Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000gp)
Wrist: Bracers of Armour +8 (64,000gp)
Ring: Ring of Protection +5 (50,000gp)
Ring: Ring of Ki Mastery (10,000)
Misc: Handy Haversack (2,000 gp)
Misc: Ioun Stone +1 Comptetence all (30,000gp)
Misc: Ioun Stone +1 Morale all (28,000gp)
Misc: +4 Str. Book (110,000gp)
Misc: +4 Wis. Book(110,000gp)
Misc: Stone of Good Luck +1 luck bonus to saves and skills(10,000gp)
Misc: Ioun Stone +1 Insight AC.
Wand of Strong Jaw: (15,600gp)
2xPotion of See Invisibility (600gp)
Total: 808,800gpFeats:
1st: Armour of the Pits (+2 nat AC), Dodge
2nd: Combat Reflexes
3rd: Dragon Style
5th: Dragon Ferocity
6th: Improved Bull Rush
7th: Weapon Focus
9th: Teamwork feat: Outflank
10th: Improved Critical
11: Improved Initiative
13: Dimensional Agility
14: Medusa's Wrath
15: Dimensional Assalt
17: Dimensional Dervish
18: Snatch Arrows
19: Dimensional SavantQinggong...
As you said, it's a very solid build and I can't really see anything in it that I can complain about.
What are the Qinggong abilities that you are using? I assume at least ki leech, cause you were talking about regaining ki...
Also, for playing purposes, I'd probably retrain most of your feats when he hits level 12: immediate access to dimensional dervish.
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The most powerful Monk is the one with the mage girlfriend! :)