Idea - Ultra Low AC Wizard and High Level Play


Advice


I'm building a wizard with 13 normal, unbuffed AC. No armor. Just a 16 dex. Looking over the spells, being an abjurer, I'm tempted to not buy AC boosting items at all. He's currently level 11 but I haven't played him yet. However, with miss chance spells, blink, protection from arrows and bullet shield, and other situational protections, I actually think I'll feel pretty safe. At level 11, those are decent durations, too, even for round/level spells.

I understand the threat of ambushes and surprise attacks but these are exceedingly rare in the campaign he's going into.

Is this folly or smart?


So you plan on spending the first 2-3 rounds casting basic protection spells instead of assisting your teammates?


I plan on playing an abjurer with immediate action counterspells. Regardless of what I do for my turn I can assist my teammates. Also, the minute/level and 10 min/level spells will probably last between fights as the latter lasts a couple hours. 3.5 if I extend spell it. That part's fine.


You're never going to have a high AC, so I'd get something that grants miss chance.

Sovereign Court

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Armor is irrelevant in higher level play. Go for miss chances, be flying out of reach, or be invisible.


Extend Spell is your friend, Mage Armor and Shield give a +8 to AC. Buffs like Cat's Grace, Mass may be useful in the future which will also bump your AC.

3.5 had improved versions of both Mage Armor and Shield which may be worth looking into for independent research.


Overland Flight and Emergency Force Sphere are your friends as is a Ring of Invisibility. Quickened Mirror Inage may well be a decent level 6 spell slot for dangerous situations. Investing in AC is ultimately a losing game for you as your AC will not keep pace with monsters attack bonuses.


Thanks all. I agree that ac has diminishing returns. My party has an evoker wizard and it took a significant investment just to get his to 31. That's with a significant in-game windfall this new character of mine won't have access to.

It sounds like what I'm doing is in line with the suggestions so far.

Something that makes me nervous is the true seeing melee combatant. Other than blink, I can't think of a good solution there. Thoughts?

Dark Archive

If you ever want to have good defense at high level, drop a high-level mirror image or displacement; that's going to be better than the 40 AC fighter up front. As I approach the high levels I regret all of my time building up my "tankiness" on my fighter; though as a PFS character most of the play is low level, where that AC kept me alive nicely. But unless you have a use for it, I'd take a much lower dex and put the points elsewhere, too.

As to the true seer, best defense is to let your line intercept him and drop spells that make it hard to move towards him. Second defense is to substitute your high dexterity for an insanely high Con.

Sovereign Court

I'm a big fan of Contingency: Mirror Image. While it's true you're generally better off with Displacement/Invisibility than boosting AC, it may still be worthwhile to use Mage Armor. You'll probably still get hit on a 2 by the first hit of most things, but there are always minions to worry about, and even the big guys sometimes have iterative/secondary attacks you may be able to defend against.

Opponents with True Seeing are indeed tricky. I recommend Stoneskin and placing your favorite Force effect between you and it.

Also remember that Bear's Endurance and Greater False Life can really boost your longevity, to the tune of 2d10 + 3 per level. False Life even lasts for hours/level.


I like the dexterity for saves, skills, and initiative. I also have a 16 con. To dump one for the other doesn't get me much as I'm an elf, unfortunately.

A contingencied dimension door may be apt. Force punch could be useful as well.


Buri wrote:
Thanks all. I agree that ac has diminishing returns.

Well, AC is a little bit different than that. Because a d20 has a linear distribution of outcomes, as in, a 2 is just as likely to be rolled as a 7 or a 19, diminishing returns don't really kick in. Every point of AC translates into a 5% less chance of being hit. Diminishing returns only kick in when you go from being hit on a 20 to being hit on a 20.

More like... you have to keep up with expected attack bonuses for the bad guys. Pathfinder doesn't punish having a super-low AC like 3.5 did, because Power Attack is fixed. What this means is that if you can't keep up, having a +1 is meaningless in PF, where in 3.5, every +1 to AC meant that the foe virtually had to Power Attack for one point less.

Anyways, miss chances are great, but Blind-Fight punches through them pretty reliably. So don't get in melee.

Also, I would suggest investing in Acrobatics. If you do get into melee, you might have enough hit points to withstand a single attack, but not a full-attack. Acrobatics will help you stay out of the full-attack danger zone. Being a Conjuration-Teleportation wizard helps as well.

Back in the day, I used to run Contingent Empowered Mirror Image a lot, triggering when I was attacked. It worked.

-Matt

Sovereign Court

Oh yeah, Acrobatics is good, and so is Escape Artist. Always max escape artist! Otherwise when your Freedom of Movement is dispelled and you get grappled, you are VERY dead. (remember, only spells with only verbal components can be cast while grappled, and you have to make a very difficult concentration check.)


Having a friend or two with liberating command on tap really helps with grapples, as well.


Yeah, AC is rather diminishing returns in higher level play. Your primary AC might be huge, but so's an opponents attack ability, especially if they target things like Touch AC.

I'd say if you're not a target intended for getting hammered on, and a mage, things like Mirror Image is good. Blur/etc can be good unless everyone is already running anti-concealment buffs.

Stoneskin is ok, not as powerful as earlier versions, but still gives you sorta Temp HP. Throw in something like shield of arrow deflection or some of those arrow attractor charms and you'll be ok for a few rounds. The goal is to be less-hitable due to circumstance and give your team time to blaze the enemies.


Buri wrote:

I'm building a wizard with 13 normal, unbuffed AC. No armor. Just a 16 dex. Looking over the spells, being an abjurer, I'm tempted to not buy AC boosting items at all. He's currently level 11 but I haven't played him yet. However, with miss chance spells, blink, protection from arrows and bullet shield, and other situational protections, I actually think I'll feel pretty safe. At level 11, those are decent durations, too, even for round/level spells.

I understand the threat of ambushes and surprise attacks but these are exceedingly rare in the campaign he's going into.

Is this folly or smart?

You should invest in AC-boosting items that give bonuses you can't give yourself. Don't buy Bracers of Armor, but do buy a Ring of Protection, for instance. Mage Armor will at least give you AC 17, terrible, but might save you from a crit. Well, probably not... You're not a Diviner and at some point will be surprised and possibly shot to death by an archer.

I agree that wizards have a nice range of defensive options, and even if you restrict yourself to hours/level spells (Mage Armor) and a single defensive spell (Greater Invisibility or Mirror Image) you will usually be safe. The key word is usually. One of these days a creature with tremorsense will get you, before you can cast Shield.


You should definitely use Mage Armor; it's a single first level spell slot that you probably won't otherwise even use. Going from AC 13 to 17 won't stop any high level creature's first attack, but it might stop one of its iterative attacks if you are unlucky enough to get full attacked.
I'd also take Shield, for those times when you can cast it out of combat prior to a battle you know will take place.

But yeah, I don't generally invest in AC increasing items as a wizard. Your gold and the item slots are better spent elsewhere. Increasing saves should be a defensive priority.


I forgot about the ring of protection. Very good call.


My brother fielded this in Runelords. This exactly. No AC buffs at all, just a counterspell-focused Abjurer.

You need strong direct damage folks to take point, but it works really well. An optimized counterspeller can waste a ton of important enemy actions... not every time, but enough to really turn any fight just as it gets going.

Also, if you find that kind of play rewarding, other players will celebrate you for letting them hog all the glory. Unlike a battlefield controller, it really *looks* like they're doing all the work.

Annoying as heck to GM for, though. Your NPCs never get to cast anything nasty.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Buri wrote:
I'm building a wizard with 13 normal, unbuffed AC.

This is far too high - my PFS 11th level wizard has only 10 AC after gear (ring +1 and +1 natural armor).

...

More seriously - going low is an option. As Kimera says, you will pay for it eventually, and frankly you will cause your party some headaches when you drop to a bunch of minions sometime. On the other hand, sometimes it's nice to have a weakness for role-playing, so a party member can rescue you.

The Evoker in your party is quite well defended (20+level AC on a wizard? nice), but even a standard 20 or 25 AC would reduce your potential deaths by a good bit.


This is for Rise. Haha

My GM is actually excited to see what I do with it. He's hoping to really spruce up the scribbler. I'm curious if this build will shut it down.


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Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:
You need strong direct damage folks to take point, but it works really well. An optimized counterspeller can waste a ton of important enemy actions... not every time, but enough to really turn any fight just as it gets going.

I agree. What's also important is that an optimized counterspeller can be the one who negates the nastiest, most important enemy actions. So even if it doesn't come up often, it's a huge benefit to the party.

-Matt


Majuba wrote:
The Evoker in your party is quite well defended (20+level AC on a wizard? nice), but even a standard 20 or 25 AC would reduce your potential deaths by a good bit.

I'll probably end up with 20 ac. Get a +3 ring of protection then daily mage armor. Occasional shield when needed. I looked at the npc codex and those builds are only in the teens.


Buri wrote:
Majuba wrote:
The Evoker in your party is quite well defended (20+level AC on a wizard? nice), but even a standard 20 or 25 AC would reduce your potential deaths by a good bit.
I'll probably end up with 20 ac. Get a +3 ring of protection then daily mage armor. Occasional shield when needed. I looked at the npc codex and those builds are only in the teens.

+3 Ring of Protection is a bad buy at 18k. You can get a +1 Ring, +1 Amulet of Natural Armour and Ioun Stone or Jingasa for +3AC at a cost of 9k.


Now if you just happen to find some bracers of armor of a decent enhancement bonus, why not keep them? But yeah investing cash money into AC resources is a bit unfulfilling.


andreww wrote:
+3 Ring of Protection is a bad buy at 18k. You can get a +1 Ring, +1 Amulet of Natural Armour and Ioun Stone or Jingasa for +3AC at a cost of 9k.

It's deflection which also applies to CMD and touch. It's worth it. The balanced purchase option for WBL of 11 is 20,500 for armor and protective items. Not buying magic weapons will have a huge savings and enough to cover my cloak of protection.


I have a similar build on my illusion-focused sorcerer played from 1 to 12. I focus on boosting things like initiative (anticipate peril) and hit points (false life) as well as the standard evasion techniques (dd, invisibility, major images). It works for the most part as long as you don't slack on saving throws and hit points. Having an ability to negate a crit is tremendous.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Buri wrote:
andreww wrote:
+3 Ring of Protection is a bad buy at 18k. You can get a +1 Ring, +1 Amulet of Natural Armour and Ioun Stone or Jingasa for +3AC at a cost of 9k.
It's deflection which also applies to CMD and touch. It's worth it. The balanced purchase option for WBL of 11 is 20,500 for armor and protective items. Not buying magic weapons will have a huge savings and enough to cover my cloak of protection.

Also you're quite likely to find amulets of natural armor to tack on. +3 Rings won't be coming to the back row wizard for a while.


Buri wrote:
andreww wrote:
+3 Ring of Protection is a bad buy at 18k. You can get a +1 Ring, +1 Amulet of Natural Armour and Ioun Stone or Jingasa for +3AC at a cost of 9k.
It's deflection which also applies to CMD and touch. It's worth it. The balanced purchase option for WBL of 11 is 20,500 for armor and protective items. Not buying magic weapons will have a huge savings and enough to cover my cloak of protection.

As a Wizard your CMD is never ever going to count for anything that is even remotely threatening for your level. Also my set adds 2 to CMD so you are paying 9k for +1CMD. +3 Ring of Protection is an utterly terrible deal. If you do want to invest in AC then you need to look at the marginal cost for each extra point of AC or you run out of money fast.


Cylyria wrote:
Armor is irrelevant in higher level play. Go for miss chances, be flying out of reach, or be invisible.

I don't agree. These are all viable primary lines of defense, but completely tanking your armor class will eventually catch up with you in a big way. It will never protect against a primary attackers first attack, or even second attack, but against a full attack that will otherwise end you it invaluable.

Don't overinvest in armor class, but don't ignore it.


I'd do a +2 ring and the jingasa. That would be cheaper. Natural armor isn't going to help me in almost any circumstance where I'm in the back. I'm looking mostly at touch ACs.


A +1 Ring, Jingasa and +1 Insight AC bonus ioun stone will cost you 12k rather than 13k for the Ring and Jingasa. Its a small difference but every little counts.


Huh. Cool. Thanks!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
andreww wrote:
A +1 Ring, Jingasa and +1 Insight AC bonus ioun stone will cost you 12k rather than 13k for the Ring and Jingasa. Its a small difference but every little counts.

Jingasa and ioun stone do not stack.

Jingasa should cost twice as much as it does [/grumble]


One is luck, one is insight, they stack.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
andreww wrote:
One is luck, one is insight, they stack.

You are correct, my mistake.

Jingasa shouldn't exist at all. [/grumble]


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

AC not being able to keep up at higher levels is complete bunk.

10 base
10 Dex
08 bracers of armor
06 +5 mithral buckler
05 amulet of natural armor
05 ring of protection
01 ioun stone
01 jingasa of the fortunate soldier
46 total AC without much effort and without any actual armor

A CR 20 monster's high attack is usually +30. That means you negate more than half of their BEST attacks, and even more of their iterative/secondary attacks.

If you pay attention to the prices and get the most bang for your buck at any given level, you generally stay ahead of the curve.

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