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If you can play captain kirk and invent a cannon, my kobolds are going to start mining uranium.
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I like how people complain about the gunslinger more or less "auto hitting". At mid to late game, the fighter isn't missing on anything short of a 1 and you don't see many people complaining (tuns out that Bonus to hit scales MUCH FASTER than AC (unless you are a stupid AC monk with flowing archetype and Crane Style because screw you and your ability to touch me... ever)).
Design Manager
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I like how people complain about the gunslinger more or less "auto hitting". At mid to late game, the fighter isn't missing on anything short of a 1 and you don't see many people complaining (tuns out that Bonus to hit scales MUCH FASTER than AC (unless you are a stupid AC monk with flowing archetype and Crane Style because screw you and your ability to touch me... ever)).
It's not the auto-hit. It's the ability to stack ridiculous amounts of penalties on each attack to rack up as many attacks and damage bonuses as possible, and then still be guaranteed to hit not just with the first salvo, but with pretty much all of the iteratives as well.
I like how people complain about the gunslinger more or less "auto hitting". At mid to late game, the fighter isn't missing on anything short of a 1 and you don't see many people complaining (tuns out that Bonus to hit scales MUCH FASTER than AC (unless you are a stupid AC monk with flowing archetype and Crane Style because screw you and your ability to touch me... ever)).
The fighter auto hits on 1 attack. The gunslinger auto hits on 5.
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Design Manager
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I like how people complain about the gunslinger more or less "auto hitting". At mid to late game, the fighter isn't missing on anything short of a 1 and you don't see many people complaining (tuns out that Bonus to hit scales MUCH FASTER than AC (unless you are a stupid AC monk with flowing archetype and Crane Style because screw you and your ability to touch me... ever)).The fighter auto hits on 1 attack. The gunslinger auto hits on 5.
At least.
I like how people complain about the gunslinger more or less "auto hitting". At mid to late game, the fighter isn't missing on anything short of a 1 and you don't see many people complaining (tuns out that Bonus to hit scales MUCH FASTER than AC (unless you are a stupid AC monk with flowing archetype and Crane Style because screw you and your ability to touch me... ever)).It's not the auto-hit. It's the ability to stack ridiculous amounts of penalties on each attack to rack up as many attacks and damage bonuses as possible, and then still be guaranteed to hit not just with the first salvo, but with pretty much all of the iteratives as well.
The penalties thing is more perception or double barreled pistols. When we played rise of the runelords our archer was getting 5 attacks for 6. Arrows hitting normally for 4 of the 5 attacks for 1d8+23 or so damage. If there is no double barreled weapon I think this is about the same or better damage.
I think we'd be better served by more damage and a multi-round reload time. Then there'd be no bypassing it except by owning a couple dozen pistols, which is going to seriously cut into your enhancement budget.Let's apply the same principle to spells as well. Level 3-5 spells take two rounds to cast, and 6-9 take three. I mean if big effect once every few rounds is acceptable.
Nobody is served by an unsatisfying system. Do you think a player of a greatsword wielding barbarian would accept rolling against touch AC if it meant he could only attack every third round? I doubt it.
Reading comprehension is apparently not happening here.
If I have a gun I load it before I go hunting. I don't wait until I find a deer then start loading. That would be stupid. Especially with a muzzle loader.
If I'm fighting a bunch of hobgoblins I don't stand there reloading like an idiot. I do what actual musketeers would have done. I drop the musket and draw a sword or I stick a bayonet in it or draw a pistol that I also loaded before the fight because I'm not stupid. I'm not going to reload unless there's a great big block of them marching slowly across a big open field. Gunslingers have all martial proficiencies for a reason.
Then I reload while the cleric is poking people with a CLW wand and the barbarian is recovering from rage fatigue and the wizard is using spellcraft to identify everything in the room that pings detect magic and we go on to the next encounter.
Isn't it great to only use the the thing your entire class is built around once at the beginning of a battle? I bet when you play sorcerers or wizards you cast one spell and switch to a crossbow for the rest of the fight as well? No, I doubt very much that you do. Why exactly should a gunslinger, who only gets class abilities for working better with a gun, be requred to forsake their entire set of class abilities after one attack?
What a real musketeer would do is entirely irrelevant. What a real cleric would do is operate a church and conduct weekly services while accpting payments to forgive the sins of nobility. Clearly, we're not basing this on historical realism.
I comprehend your writing quite effectively. What is lacking is agreement.
Isn't it great to only use the the thing your entire class is built around once at the beginning of a battle? I bet when you play sorcerers or wizards you cast one spell and switch to a crossbow for the rest of the fight as well? No, I doubt very much that you do.That's pretty much the ideal for god wizards. You cast one or at most two spells that change the basis of the fight and then conserve your spells because outside of parts of Kingmaker the fifteen minute adventuring day is strongly discouraged and you'll probably also be called upon to do all sorts of noncombat stuff as well.
That's also how bards and inquisitors and battle clerics and oracles tend to operate and they're closer parallels to the gunslinger because like the gunslinger they can actually hit things with weapons that don't make touch attacks.
???
Bards beyond like... level 5, have so many rounds of perform that it almost becomes inconsequential... Inquisitors and battle clerics on use a few things per combat because they need to use more. Oracles cast like crazy, so I don't see where that is coming from...
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I think a lot of it is flavor. Personally, I love guns. I've been working on a setting where firearms are the default weapon of combat for a while now. I hate guns in settings where melee weapons, bows, and armor is the default, however. I find having guns in my quasi-medieval fantasy makes it feel like it isn't medieval anymore. Yes, I know guns were a medieval weapon. This is Pathfinder, though. Historical accuracy isn't a thing. I want flavor, and to me that means fighting with swords and bows. If I'm going to hand out guns, that's going to be a part of the setting flavor, and everybody will be packing heat.
I don't think people realize how many spells Casters get per day even at say 5th Level. How many fights are there and how many rounds do they last I need more then 12 spells?
Also take into account tower shields... just go hide behind that for cover and shoot over it with a pistol and duck back down whereas practically every other ranged attacker must surrender the shield and the cover it provides OR attack power.
Spellcasters can do the same thing. And spellcasters have a spell that provides them with an invisible floating shield that doesn't need to be worn, protects them anyway, and allows them to continue casting.
whats wrong? they exist. for role-play and roll-play.
if u want more than that how about all u have to do is buy an armory of guns, travel with em, shoot, drop, and shoot, drop, repeat. Until such time as full casters overshadow all others , 15th level maybe, that is all it takes.
Ranged touch attacks is something that is begging for abuse. on its own it is not so bad but when u add a dozen books of additional material your going to find something to abuse. Take scorching ray spell vs guns. The damage output at the same level(s) is reasonable comparable, the ray is a bit behind in to hit chance usually, but the gun can be fired time and time again.
Also take into account tower shields... just go hide behind that for cover and shoot over it with a pistol and duck back down whereas practically every other ranged attacker must surrender the shield and the cover it provides OR attack power.
Ok, if you want to play that game:
How about alchemist bombs? a single bomb can go upwards of 10d6 damage+Int mod per bomb and with 2 weapon fighting tree and rapid shot can easily put the gunslinger to shame in damage, can do a wall of effects with his bombs, AND hits touch AC
And touch AC in every range increment not just the first one. I already tried this one but was told "limited number of bombs a day don't count..."
This isn't an argument of quantitative data. It's opinion and who can yell loudest.
yeah.. limited by his level+his int mod+how many times he took extra bombs..
oh... and bombs are free. It would be a different matter if they cost 12 gp per bomb...
EDIT:
And the alchemist has a mutagen (which can help his bonus to hit), AND infusions which lets the alchemist can use to buff AND buff his allies, and has his other discoveries to fly, get fast healing, and a bunch of other stuff...
I use early guns(emerging firearms but dislike the (Generic) way early guns rules are written.
The Vast majority of my guns I ruled are matchlocks with Wheellocks being Masterwork guns. So I have had to come up with a large number of House rules to fit guns in my world ranging from how long it takes to light a match, How easy is it to see a lit Match, and of course rules on keeping powder dry and the match lit. Not to mention How far does the noise of a gun travel.
And this is not to mention how do spells with descriptors Fire , Water, snow, Ice,etc effect guns
I would really like to see the rules on gun redone but I dont think that is going to happen soon
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I played a halfling pistolero/mysterious stranger for kingmaker. I had access to all the money and we were on 20 point buy, I was on cloud nine. Anything that got in my way I would throw bullets and money at and usually it would die. I used one double barrel pistol because I didn't want to deal with twf rules and grabbing extra feats and I was op out the wazoo. Alchemical cartridges plus rapid reload made my life easy as pie since I could reload at breakneck speeds I could output more damage. Even with my puny d6 people feared the halfling with the big iron on his hip. I went out of my way NOT to get clustered shots and I was still outdamaging the entire party. I knew I was overpowered but I consistently used abilities that would nerf my damage like headshots and shots to the legs, let the other pc's have their time in the sun, but when the chips were down the lead would fly and it got really bad.
With my little story out of the way I think that guns were brought about in a bit of a bad way. With a class designed to take out the negatives and make them viable would have been good, instead we get a class that negates all the bad stuff and makes them more than viable. At lvl 13 with one double barreled pistol my little halfling of death could throw more bullets than an archer fighter could put arrows in the air.But that is just it. You had near infinite money. That is not quite fair because one of the balancing factors of the gunslinger is that ammo is not cheap and guns are not cheap.
If you tread down this path, do you know how horridly broken a wizard is? Or a Dhampir Cleric necromancer (with kingmaker there is no shortage of bodies to make into an army)
Its also not exactly fair considering he was using the most broken type of firearm in the game. No, really, the double-barreled firearms are atrocious. They are extraordinarily unclear and probably should have just been cut for another piece of firearm artwork or something.