Next D&D edition officially announced for summer 2014


4th Edition

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Werthead wrote:

If they clarify that the PHB is 500-odd pages long with all of the races/classes that were previously in all of the 4E PHBs, I think a lot of people will be happy with that. The PATHFINDER core book's RRP is also $49.95 (£30 here0, but is so huge it's quite reasonable value for money.

If it's another 200-300 page book with iffy artwork, I don't think that will go down so well.

Speaking only for myself, I seriously hope the book is much closer to 300 pages than 500. The PF Core Book is too large for convenient use at the table (and especially too large for reading in bed :P).

Anyway, I'll be happy to pay $50 for the book, even if that means $150 in total for all the core rules. That would only be a drop in the ocean compared to what I've spent on 3.5, 4E, and PF over the years, not to mention the various other systems I've bought core rules for but never played ;)


Steve Geddes wrote:
I, for one, will be happy if the price of RPGs increases to a level more representative of their cost to produce and minuscule demand. RPG professionals aren't paid enough, in my view. The only realistic way that's going to change is if prices go up.

Or, you know, the hobby starts to actually advertise and goes mainstream.


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lokiare wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
I, for one, will be happy if the price of RPGs increases to a level more representative of their cost to produce and minuscule demand. RPG professionals aren't paid enough, in my view. The only realistic way that's going to change is if prices go up.
Or, you know, the hobby starts to actually advertise and goes mainstream.

I've considered that but excluded it based on the "realistic" clause.


The $10 my brother and I spent on the original woodprint box set we picked up in 1974 seemed like a lot. But we'd tried the game and it was really fun. The $25 we spent on the boxed Empire of the Petal Throne game was pretty stiff in 1975 (iirc). $50 a book isn't that bad, but I make better money these days :) I collect the core PF books and I'll collect the DDN books as well. The DDN playtest looked like a decent game in the making. We'll see how it goes.


Steve Geddes wrote:
I, for one, will be happy if the price of RPGs increases to a level more representative of their cost to produce and minuscule demand. RPG professionals aren't paid enough, in my view. The only realistic way that's going to change is if prices go up.

There's also the direct sales option, as we grow ever closer to a single global economic region it's easier and easier to go direct to the publisher (especially so in the case of digital formats), thus cutting out the distribution and retail middlemen and ensuring a larger cut goes to the people creating.

Obviously there's a few obstacles to get over (such as, without the exposure of books on shelves how do people find out about this stuff?) but the computer game industry is setting the pace, Amazon has made big changes to the publishing industry, and I fully expect many others to follow. There's arguments these changes aren't positive things (and I'm not really wanting to get into that particular debate right now), but I don't believe that makes them any less inevitable.

With every passing year I'm of the opinion that the majority of retail is doomed (although it may well still be a while off happening). There's still enough resistance from older generations (and I include my own in this) and retailers themselves (obviously!) for it not to happen overnight, but the day is approaching when we're enough of a click to buy society for the majority of retail to go the way of the Dodo, leaving perhaps supermarkets (many of whom have already embraced the idea of delivering to the customer) and filling stations (at least until we hit the point where vehicles are mostly used just for vacations) as the only ones left.

It'd be crazy to think this will happen any time in the short term, of course, but in the lifetime of the majority of people on these boards - quite probably.

The Exchange

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$50 isn't bad if it is actually worth buying. Pretty skeptical at this point

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Quite honestly, $50 isn't too bad a price point, except that D&D traditionally requires three books. If that model holds, the price goes up to $150 for the core books - not bad for those who definitely want to buy into the game, but not good for those who are on the fence.

The weakness in the argument that $50 or even $150 is well worth the price because of the hours of entertainment it provides is that there are already many other alternatives. I can already have the same fun that D&D provides while running any previous edition (all affordable and easily obtainable) or Pathfinder, which I already own. The playtest, while looking good, hasn't convinced me that the game offers anything new that I don't already get through playing Pathfinder.

If WotC wants to catch players who are curious but not yet committed, they need some sort of inexpensive buy-in that can get people hooked. Now, that doesn't have to be the core rulebooks - it could be the starter set (although their track record with those is poor), it could be inexpensive PDFs, or it could be something else entirely. But most people see the three core books as the entry point, so WotC is going to need to emphasize that things have changed if they want to catch a wider audience.


Personaly I'd like to see a break with tradition and not have a "Monster Manual" at all, but see releases of box sets with loose pages for monsters and their associated pawns (but what am I saying, only Paizo is smart enough to do something like this).

Liberty's Edge

"Players fight the most fearsome monster of all time in an exciting multi-platform gaming experience"

Really?!

I really think that the saying Lawyers would be the first with their backs against the wall when the revolution comes should be amended to:

Marketing should be the first with their back against the wall when the revolution comes or tomorrow. Which ever comes first.

It is almost like marketing people get educated at schools that teach a major in meaningless phrases rather than grammar!

Looking forward to game, not looking forward to the dribble the marketing department will inflict upon us running up to the release.

Liberty's Edge

Terquem wrote:
Personaly I'd like to see a break with tradition and not have a "Monster Manual" at all, but see releases of box sets with loose pages for monsters and their associated pawns (but what am I saying, only Paizo is smart enough to do something like this).

Loose pages in 2e ended up a nightmare. I think failed experiment is the term.


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Terquem wrote:
Personaly I'd like to see a break with tradition and not have a "Monster Manual" at all, but see releases of box sets with loose pages for monsters and their associated pawns (but what am I saying, only Paizo is smart enough to do something like this).

I'd like something similar, but more akin to the BECMI Rules Cyclopedia. Include everything needed to run a game in a single book to hook people and get them playing, with the more iconic monsters included. Think Pathfinder core rulebook with half the complexity stripped out and room for some common monsters and magic items.

If anything extra is needed for a specific module, add it in an appendix in that module. Then the MM just becomes a resource for people that want to create their own adventures, and not a "must-have".


Matt Thomason wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
I, for one, will be happy if the price of RPGs increases to a level more representative of their cost to produce and minuscule demand. RPG professionals aren't paid enough, in my view. The only realistic way that's going to change is if prices go up.

There's also the direct sales option, as we grow ever closer to a single global economic region it's easier and easier to go direct to the publisher (especially so in the case of digital formats), thus cutting out the distribution and retail middlemen and ensuring a larger cut goes to the people creating.

Obviously there's a few obstacles to get over (such as, without the exposure of books on shelves how do people find out about this stuff?) but the computer game industry is setting the pace, Amazon has made big changes to the publishing industry, and I fully expect many others to follow. There's arguments these changes aren't positive things (and I'm not really wanting to get into that particular debate right now), but I don't believe that makes them any less inevitable.

With every passing year I'm of the opinion that the majority of retail is doomed (although it may well still be a while off happening). There's still enough resistance from older generations (and I include my own in this) and retailers themselves (obviously!) for it not to happen overnight, but the day is approaching when we're enough of a click to buy society for the majority of retail to go the way of the Dodo, leaving perhaps supermarkets (many of whom have already embraced the idea of delivering to the customer) and filling stations (at least until we hit the point where vehicles are mostly used just for vacations) as the only ones left.

It'd be crazy to think this will happen any time in the short term, of course, but in the lifetime of the majority of people on these boards - quite probably.

Whilst I'll confess up front to be old fashioned, set in my ways and a whatevertheoppositeofavisionaryfuturistis. This solution nonetheless still seems like them getting underpaid to me. Sure they'll be getting paid more - but only because they're being the writer, publisher, marketer and retailer now. I still think they're going to be underpaid, they're just filling more steps of the supply chain (and bearing more of the risk).


Are wrote:


Speaking only for myself, I seriously hope the book is much closer to 300 pages than 500. The PF Core Book is too large for convenient use at the table (and especially too large for reading in bed :P).

Exactly my feelings. It may be cheaper to bundle the PHB and DNG into a single volume but the unwieldiness of that 500 page monstrosity (with its weak binding and easy separating cover!) has convinced me I never want to own a book that big again. I'll take two 250pg books over that thing any day.


Steve Geddes wrote:


Whilst I'll confess up front to be old fashioned, set in my ways and a whatevertheoppositeofavisionaryfuturistis. This solution nonetheless still seems like them getting underpaid to me. Sure they'll be getting paid more - but only because they're being the writer, publisher, marketer and retailer now. I still think they're going to be underpaid, they're just filling more steps of the supply chain (and bearing more of the risk).

Yeah, I have to admit that's a point... Not to mention that there's no guarantee the extra money will see it's ways to the writers and artists rather than going into corporate profits.

I'm still a big proponent of the company producing something getting as close to 100% of the retail price as possible, as opposed to 30%ish from having it go through distributors and retailers, though, and I absolutely agree that most RPG authors are horribly underpaid :)

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

One interesting question is whether WoTC are planning to offer some kind of licensing arrangement less restrictive than the 4th Edition Game System License. WoTC pretty much lost the entire third-party publisher ecosystem to Paizo overnight when they abandoned the Open Game Licence in favour of the GSL. While the direct economic value of the third-party ecosystem to WoTC is small, it is important to them in capturing mindshare and building a community around their products. I would argue that the rise of Paizo has been at least in part due to the effort that they have invested in building a strong community of third-party publishers around Pathfinder - this has helped to build a buzz around their own products and to demonstrate their respect for the broader hobby.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed some more posts and responses to them/quoting them. Edition warring is not OK on paizo.com.


Apparently the Escapist WotC for a comment on the release date and they basically said, "No comment." If it was wrong, they'd have said so, so the Escapist (at least) are convinced that those release dates are final.


The whole thing did really strike me as WotC giving B&N the price and release dates, B&N putting up pre-order information, and WotC screaming "Well, you weren't supposed to tell everyone!"

Knowing the price satisfies my curiosity, but given that WotC themselves have set summer of 2014 as the release date, I've never seen a less informative "leak" in my life.


Stefan Hill wrote:
Terquem wrote:
Personaly I'd like to see a break with tradition and not have a "Monster Manual" at all, but see releases of box sets with loose pages for monsters and their associated pawns (but what am I saying, only Paizo is smart enough to do something like this).
Loose pages in 2e ended up a nightmare. I think failed experiment is the term.

On this I really agree. All those loose leafs everywhere and then you'd get an add on and it'd no longer work in alphabetical order (because they often printed monsters on both sides). Major pain in the rear.


well, some people liked the loose pages, and there is no reason to think it could be improved upon, given that things like what you mention (printing two different monsters on one page, back and front) could be easily avoided


Terquem wrote:
well, some people liked the loose pages, and there is no reason to think it could be improved upon, given that things like what you mention (printing two different monsters on one page, back and front) could be easily avoided

I feel your pain, but as others have said, it didn't work out the first time. This far into the digital age, I think that ship has sailed.


Terquem wrote:
Personaly I'd like to see a break with tradition and not have a "Monster Manual" at all, but see releases of box sets with loose pages for monsters and their associated pawns (but what am I saying, only Paizo is smart enough to do something like this).

Huh? TSR tried this 20 years ago and it was a colossal failure. Boxes of loose pages? Is that what paizo is actually putting out? 4 Bestiaries seem to tell a different story (and I would bet any money they outsell any loose page filled box you care to mention).


Terquem wrote:
well, some people liked the loose pages, and there is no reason to think it could be improved upon, given that things like what you mention (printing two different monsters on one page, back and front) could be easily avoided

While I realize you would like the loose pages, I would be real shocked if they ever tried that again. It was such a major failure the first time and not just because of the monsters printed on the back. Pages tore out real easy, the binders were twice the size of a monster book, and from what I understood it never had good sales. All stikes against a loose page format.


PDfs and a printer serve the role the Monster Compendium format tried to fill.

Or better yet, PDFs and a laptop or tablet. We didn't have those as available in 1989.


Terquem wrote:


well, some people liked the loose pages, and there is no reason to think it could be improved upon, given that things like what you mention (printing two different monsters on one page, back and front) could be easily avoided

It was improved. They turned out a hardcover book :) Among other things the loose pages were fragile and the binder rings tore out the hole punches. I ended up using sheet protectors. Then there was filing, interleafing and generally fitzing with it... I was incredibly happy with the hardcover as a result.

The one advantage I remember was pulling the pages you needed into a "mini monster manual" for a given game session. Which led to the adventure of finding the missing monster pages...

A PDF where you could print out individual monster pages might be nice. Especially if the monsters were kept on separate pages with no overlap. Sounds like something a 3pp could do. A page could include artwork and extra information. Assuming DDN has an OGL type license of course.

*edit* And I look up and right above my new post someone makes the same point / idea... I should read to the bottom before commenting.


My question is this: If they plan on releasing the start set in 2 months, does that mean they are pretty much done testing it and its gone to the printer?

Does this mean the starter set will have many rules changes between then and the PHB release?


If the starter set is simpler / more basic there may be less to change later than you would think. Or nothing to change for that matter. The basic / core elements of the game might be pretty straight forward and need little to no adjustment. The more complex "fiddly" bits coming in the full game and the later expansions.


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lokiare wrote:

My question is this: If they plan on releasing the start set in 2 months, does that mean they are pretty much done testing it and its gone to the printer?

Does this mean the starter set will have many rules changes between then and the PHB release?

I don't have any special knowledge, of course. But I'd be surprised if the big decisions hadn't been made by now.


I certainly hope that it is a more "all inclusive" format. Where we can create the type of character we want and shape it into a somewhat unique vision of what makes a player happy.


Quote:
If they plan on releasing the start set in 2 months

4 months. And with most books, at about 4 months from publication they're finalising the typeset, page lay-outs and final text. At this point they can probably still change things, but not too much (and they might be at the stage where they can only change things if the replacement text uses the same space as the original, so it won't disrupt layouts). Usually printing begins 2-4 weeks or so before publication, but with this kind of big, illustrated book it's usually more.

Major, sweeping rule changs at this point would certainly appear to be out.


Prime Evil wrote:
One interesting question is whether WoTC are planning to offer some kind of licensing arrangement less restrictive than the 4th Edition Game System License. WoTC pretty much lost the entire third-party publisher ecosystem to Paizo overnight when they abandoned the Open Game Licence in favour of the GSL. While the direct economic value of the third-party ecosystem to WoTC is small, it is important to them in capturing mindshare and building a community around their products. I would argue that the rise of Paizo has been at least in part due to the effort that they have invested in building a strong community of third-party publishers around Pathfinder - this has helped to build a buzz around their own products and to demonstrate their respect for the broader hobby.

What were the differences between the OGL and GLS anyway?


lokiare wrote:

My question is this: If they plan on releasing the start set in 2 months, does that mean they are pretty much done testing it and its gone to the printer?

Does this mean the starter set will have many rules changes between then and the PHB release?

Wht I want to know is:

1) Will people complain that there should have been a beta playtest because the rules are broken and CharOp people would have seen all the issues (whether true or not)?

2) Will people complain the alpha playtest was a waste of their time because the final product is very different from what was tested (whether true or not)?


goldomark wrote:
lokiare wrote:

My question is this: If they plan on releasing the start set in 2 months, does that mean they are pretty much done testing it and its gone to the printer?

Does this mean the starter set will have many rules changes between then and the PHB release?

Wht I want to know is:

1) Will people complain that their should have been a beta playtest because the rules are broken and CharOp people would have seen all the issues (whether true or not)?

2) Will people complain the alpha playtest was a waste of their time because the final product is very different from what was tested (whether true or not)?

Will people complain?

Yes.


goldomark wrote:

lokiare wrote:

My question is this: If they plan on releasing the start set in 2 months, does that mean they are pretty much done testing it and its gone to the printer?

Does this mean the starter set will have many rules changes between then and the PHB release?

Wht I want to know is:

1) Will people complain that their should have been a beta playtest because the rules are broken and CharOp people would have seen all the issues (whether true or not)?

2) Will people complain the alpha playtest was a waste of their time because the final product is very different from what was tested (whether true or not)?

Will people complain?

Yes.

People will always find something to complain about, but few have the ability to offer resolutions. No matter how carefully a company tries to meet the demands of the majority of the consumers, there will always be a complaint.


I'm sure some people will complain about 5e. No doubt about that.

What they will complain about is what interest me.

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