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There will be GMs who make it their goal to kill your character on purpose, solely because you are playing a gunslinger. That is how much they are hated. They feel like other people having fun somehow ruins their fun. You don't want to play with them. They also kick puppies.
There are also many GMs (and players) out there who think the class is cool, and they want you to play a character that you enjoy.
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Just make sure that youy take that rank in Craft (Alchemy), and buy a gunsmith kit (15 gp, IIRC), and you get the discounted prices.
Still a bit steep, compared to arrows, but not as crippling/bad as some would have you think.
Main thing to remember about a gunslinger is that they are not quite as durable as a regular fighterm because of their armor limitations, but tyhey have a good BAB, and good hp.
But, yes, tactical thinking is paramount, especially if you wind up playing up at any point.
Last time I checked, I still had a seat available for a level one module I am running on Saturday. Check out the posts on the Pathfinder Society Online Collective. It is a dangerous module, but I don't go out of my way to kill anyone beyond what the normal danger level provides.
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I have a level 5 Gunslinger/Inquisitor and have run into some dislike, but no out right threat to my characters life. Honestly, if you make sure your character is not loaded with the combos to throw 100's of damage down range in a round, most people will be comfortable with your gunslinger. At level 5 I can, at about the 2nd to 3rd round begin sending about 1D8+8(?) down range, and while I have two-weapon fighting, I will usually just have one pistol pulled, firing once a round, switching between alchemical and normal reloads. I also never have my character "Drop" his guns to free a hand for the fast reload, this roleplay reason also helps limit his damage.
Gunslingers if you know what your doing can easily steal the show, and I do not like doing it, so I keep myself restrained. I always heard stories of Gunslingers doing 100's of damage and thought it was silly till I found out just how easy it is for them. Simply explain your actions, and why you take them, and the GM eventually calms down. Once GM's find out, sure I can use two pistols, BUT I need to drop or sheath to reload, or buy weapon chords, thus my action economy is hampered, along with the need to cast spells (I use bless a lot), the GM eventually just sees a close range, reliable archer.
The limitations?
Most are there at the early levels. I was not able to get my second pistol until about level 3-4, so if your pistol is destroyed or lost early, it will be tough replacing it. I heard a lot of gripe about the cost of ammo, but I honestly havent been that affected. With Craft(Alchemy) and the kit, your discount really is enough. Especially since almost every shot you fire will be affective. I also invested in Knowledges to be certain of enemy weakness/resistances so I do not waste a round and carry a pouch with 10 Adamantine/10 Silver/10 Cold Iron bullets for when they are needed.
Gunslingers thrive on preparedness and knowledge. I am going to a Con with him in a few weeks so I will see how he fairs with GM's not local.
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Currently, I have a level 4 gunslinger (my highest level character) and overall at my PFS group, he's hasn't been picked on too much like what other people talk about above. The main reason why I'm playing him for PFS is because my home group falls under the view Raltus described, "gunslingers don't and shouldn't exist in my fantasy world."
One thing I would recommend is be upfront and honest with your GM. Since I have read a bunch of people saying that they've seen Gunslingers "forget" about their misfire, be honest with them. Since I am playing a musket master and using alchemical paper bullets so I can rapid shot, before we start, I make sure I explain what a normal turn looks like for me. I roll both my attacks at the same time (to speed up the game), but I make sure it's well known that my first shot is my blue dice and the second is my black dice. If the first shot misfires, I WILL NOT shoot the second shot. I also go through and during my turn, I describe my actions with what type of action its taking. I'm taking all these precautions to make sure I'm not picked on during a scenario.
The other thing that I explain to the GM is that every time I fire an alchemical bullet, it costs me 6gp, which seems to make them smile and take a little pity on me. Now, with that in mind, there are lots of ways to mitigate this cost. I'm playing a half-elf with the Arcane Training trait, favored class bard, this way I can use 1st level wands from the bard list, such as Abundant Ammunition. I just have to keep track of rounds since the spell is 1 min/lvl.
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Perhaps it is just my dice, but my Pally Gunslinger is kept in check largely by misfires. In fact in one such instance, I rolled two attacks with Rapid Shot on my pepperbox and critted the first shot and misfired the second. At least it wasn't the other way around.
I think GMs that hate Gunslingers aren't remembering or holding the characters to their limitations. Unless you are hand loading a pistol, most characters will misfire on 1s and 2s, or 10% of the time. Rifles have a good range increment, but pistols are range 20. Make sure you're keeping active track of their Grit expenditures, especially if they are using it to clear misfires, increase range or dodge.
Another misconception is that of the x4 crit weapon. Do you fear it more than a rapier? You shouldn't since both an 18-20x2 and a x4 weapon will add 15% damage to the character's base over the life of the character. Sure one will have more consistent, lower damage and the other will have huge encounter breaking damage bursts, but its the same damage in the long run.
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Its not the guns themselves its the damn Touch AC mechanic that actually makes it easier to hit the BBEG at higher levels.
At level 1 the gunslinger needs to hit the kobolds 13 or 14 Touch AC
At level 17 his needs to hit the Dragons 6 Touch AC whiel everyone else in the party needs to hit its 37 AC or overcome its 25 Spell resistance...hardly seems fair does it?
This guarantees that the gunslinger will ALWAYS hit unless they misfire and there are so many ways to mitigate that that it is really only a slight problem..so the lose an attack sometimes...the fighter and archer are missing on the iterative attacks because they have to hit its real AC.
Touch AC mechanic was put into the game so the Wizards / Sorcerors etc could hit with Ray attacks...with little BAB and most likely no Precise Shot, PBS it evened out fairly well...not so with the gunslinger
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Its not the guns themselves its the damn Touch AC mechanic that actually makes it easier to hit the BBEG at higher levels.
At level 1 the gunslinger needs to hit the kobolds 13 or 14 Touch AC
At level 17 his needs to hit the Dragons 6 Touch AC whiel everyone else in the party needs to hit its 37 AC or overcome its 25 Spell resistance...hardly seems fair does it?
This guarantees that the gunslinger will ALWAYS hit unless they misfire and there are so many ways to mitigate that that it is really only a slight problem..so the lose an attack sometimes...the fighter and archer are missing on the iterative attacks because they have to hit its real AC.
Touch AC mechanic was put into the game so the Wizards / Sorcerors etc could hit with Ray attacks...with little BAB and most likely no Precise Shot, PBS it evened out fairly well...not so with the gunslinger
You will find that while the gunslinger CAN hit touch that can be only part of the problem. Cover, concealment and not getting within reach of the foe are all valid points to consider. We don't have easy access to feats that let us do something about that. Even with a 40 ft touch range there are time I have to shoot outside of touch.
I find things like moving and vital striking keep ne up with the flurry of arrows archers as I can hit with my alchemicaly infused vital strike (Move+ Standard) then reload and shot or move and shoot (double barrel musket) make me able to be more mobile than the 'I have to stand here to many/rapid shot that guy' archers.
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So there seems to be a lot of micro management to the Gunslinger, I do enjoy that in a class, it beats the "I stand there and full attack." To many of the classes are so limited to standing and hitting. I really enjoyed the Scout class from Complete Adventurer in 3.5 because it gave you the freedom to move and still do some damage.
@ Thomas Graham What were those charts you were going to post? I really need to do some homework on this class in regards to all the different bullet types and shots.
Just remember... most GM issues with the Gunslinger stem from the GM and Player not knowing how the Gunslinger works...
Mike Brock posted a write-up of the Gunslinger and its potential shots per round a while back... I'll try to find it...
The long and the short of it is, you can't get the (bow) archer shots per round. Any GM or Player that tells you otherwise doesn't know how to run the class.
Er, the rules for getting multiple shots a round with firearms are pretty clear. It takes longer for a gunslinger, but they should eventually be able to fire as fast as any archer. Rapid reload, alchemical ammo, class reload speed modifiers, etc.
Where it gets to abusive levels is the crazy multiple twin double pistol weapon cord specialized builds. That is more a function of the double pistol and not bothering to reload, though, instead carrying around many loaded double pistols.
I wonder though if it would be possible to somewhat replicate those builds with, say, hand crossbows.
-j
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actually with a double barrel musket, you can fire off more shots then any archer can in the game. I should say once you hit higher levels and use the right type of ammo (alchemical cartridges).
I have never played a gunslinger, so i could be wrong of course?
Zen Archer can do like 5 or 6 with haste @ 12th level. whereas a double barrel musket is still limited to the basic attacks (ie..3)
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Double Barrel: 2 attacks
Double Barrel + Rapid Shot: 4 attacks
Double Barrel + Rapid Shot + Haste: 6 attacks
Double Barrel + Rapid Shot + Haste + BAB of +6: 8 attacks
Double Barrel + Rapid Shot + Haste + BAB of +11: 10 attacks
I think only a Sohei archer with Flurry/Rapid Shot/Manyshot/Ki/Haste can get more attacks.
A Double Barrel Musket can outshine even a Zen Archer.
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If you play the class as broken, then its broken. If you go with TWF and Double-Barreled Pistols, and manage it, then you will one-round pretty much anything you like when you come online.
However, if you play the class tactically to try and lower your potential and instead help the party, I've found parties will like you better, and GMs will complaining less.
Try doing things like improving saves before you improve attack/damage, trying to move in combat for stuff like cover or concealment or to open up space for your allies instead of full attacking every round, and stuffing alchemical cartridiges for typical bullets when you don't need to kill the enemy ASAP(I.E. Mooks), then you will still do damage and feel effective while breaking games and annoying GMs less, and not killing allies nearly as much (dominate sucks when you fail your save, especially when you can one-round most allies).
I've found my gunslinger to be well received (though admittedly, he isn't high level yet).
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Let's see.. the best I can do is:
3 attacks (with haste, reloading with paper cartridges would be:
-1 attack with infused alchemical weapon for 2d12+15+1(or 2)d6, and 2 additional 2d12+15 (Using up one alchemical infused weapon, 2 starting loads and 4 paper cartridges.) +12/12/8 (after penalty, give or take)
1 single alchemical weapon shot + vital strike (Standard action + Move action, -4 for double barrels): 3d12+15+1/2d6, +12 to hit
1 single conductive shot (Bomb) + both barrels (Standard Action) 2d12+15+3d6+4 (This consumes 2 bombs out of my daily uses) @ +12 to hit.
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Unfortunately, you can indeed fire two shots with each attack, so you are essentially doubling your regular number of attacks. I originally thought as you do, too.
I've never actually seen anyone do it in Society, mind you. My 12th level Musket Master only uses a single barrel and still wiped up the floor during the Siege of the Diamond City.
I only used one gun in my example above to get 10 attacks.
With a regular Musket, a Gunslinger with a +11 BAB can get 5 attacks. Three iterative + Rapid Shot + Haste.
If you tack on a second barrel, it becomes 10.
I'd prefer if they errata it to only give you one extra attack, but that's not how it works at the current moment.
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Nefreet, how many guns are you using in the above example?
Also;
Double Barrel = 1 shot or 2 separate with high enough BAB (or a Special action for both)
Double Barrel + Rapid Shot = 3 (if you can reload it)
The long an the shot being, you don't add 2 at each step, it is still just 1.
11th Lvl Gunslinger gets ~6.
11th Lvl Sohei gets 9.
With a double barrel pistol, you get two shots for each of your attacks. With your one extra hasted attack, you get to fire both barrels - the same with rapid shot. Pick up rapid reload and alchemical ammunition and reloading isn't an issue.
Which means that the problem is with double firearms, really, not the class.
-j
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With a double barrel pistol, you get two shots for each of your attacks. With your one extra hasted attack, you get to fire both barrels - the same with rapid shot. Pick up rapid reload and alchemical ammunition and reloading isn't an issue.Nefreet, how many guns are you using in the above example?
Also;
Double Barrel = 1 shot or 2 separate with high enough BAB (or a Special action for both)
Double Barrel + Rapid Shot = 3 (if you can reload it)
The long an the shot being, you don't add 2 at each step, it is still just 1.
11th Lvl Gunslinger gets ~6.
11th Lvl Sohei gets 9.
Balancing the gunslinger at higher levels :
Keep the attacks as touch attacks at the first range increment (guns, even early ones, are SCARY). AND never make reloading a free action (which makes sense, since these firearms are MUZZLE loaders, not revolvers). That or make them ineligible for the rapid reload feat.
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Or enforce misfire chances.
This.
In order to get a firearm with no misfire chance that reloads as a free action you need the greater reliable on the gun, which would require 45 fame, and this require a character of at least late 8th level or you need to be a 13th level pistolero or musket master.
Even a normal reliable double barreled still misfires on a 1 2 or 3 with paper rounds, and a misfire will result in breaking a full attack unless the player wants to continue attacking with a broken gun, incurring a higher misfire, likely 1-5.
Let's look at BAB +6 slinger, I'm going to make rolls as if hasted with rapid shot, not worrying about mods because I just want to see the natural result, assuming reliable with paper rounds, so misfire on 3 2 1
Now, I made several really good rolls, but at reduced damage since the first short broke the gun, and I risked blowing up my gun as a result, the next round the gun is already broken.
I didn't even get through two full rounds without blowing my gun up.
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Double Barrel: 2 attacks
Double Barrel + Rapid Shot: 4 attacks
Double Barrel + Rapid Shot + Haste: 6 attacks
Double Barrel + Rapid Shot + Haste + BAB of +6: 8 attacks
Double Barrel + Rapid Shot + Haste + BAB of +11: 10 attacksI think only a Sohei archer with Flurry/Rapid Shot/Manyshot/Ki/Haste can get more attacks.
A Double Barrel Musket can outshine even a Zen Archer.
While that sounds impressive and cheesy, the gun probably wouldn't survive 10 attacks with a 1-3 misfire chance.
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I actually took lucky instead, I think a reroll is better than a slightly lower chance.
My gunslinger fires a lot of shots, and he misfires quite often. No gm ever remembers a misfire where I can't do anything for almost 2 rounds, but they always remember my full rounding a big tough monster :/
I think that is because melee types have rounds where they cannot make most of their attacks each and every combat. Namely, any round where they have to move more than 5 feet.
The power of gunslingers lies in:
1) ranged combat being the best type of combat rules wise
2) best ranged weapons, i.e., double barreled anythings
3) touch attacks meaning that you get more accurate and monsters get easier to hit as you level.
4) reloading as a free action becomes trivial after the first few levels
5) misfires can be easily negated
In short, gunslingers have all the pieces to be complete monsters with relative ease. Put two of the them on the same team and you pretty much don't need the rest of the party.
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Or enforce misfire chances.This.
In order to get a firearm with no misfire chance that reloads as a free action you need the greater reliable on the gun, which would require 45 fame, and this require a character of at least late 8th level or you need to be a 13th level pistolero or musket master.
Even a normal reliable double barreled still misfires on a 1 2 or 3 with paper rounds, and a misfire will result in breaking a full attack unless the player wants to continue attacking with a broken gun, incurring a higher misfire, likely 1-5.
Let's look at BAB +6 slinger, I'm going to make rolls as if hasted with rapid shot, not worrying about mods because I just want to see the natural result, assuming reliable with paper rounds, so misfire on 3 2 1
(MATH)
I didn't even get through two full rounds without blowing my gun up.
I see two problems with this, from my experience playing with gunslingers.
1) A gunslinger probably wouldn't keep full attacking on the second round with a broken gun. He'd probably spend a grit to quick clear and just take one shot, maybe with vital strike for some extra damage.
2) Most enemies aren't going to still be standing after one full round of attacks. Most GROUPS of enemies probably aren't going to be standing either.
Honestly though, I hold out that the real problem is, by the numbers, ranged combat is just much better, at least for just dealing damage, than any other kind of combat, even a lot of spells. Doesn't matter if you're using a bow or a gun, you'll see the same performance for all intents and purposes. With rapid shot and many shot, they just get too many attacks off in a round, and they get to full attack pretty much every round. There's no equivalent for melee classes, who also don't have any feat support to get things like pounce, which would help them out (excepting beast totem barbarians. Consequently, most barbarians I see are beast totem barbarians, and a lot of melee builds I see recommend splashing barbarian just to get it. It's just that much of a superior option). I'd rather see manyshot removed before I'd like to see significant changes to the way guns work. Guns DO still need some work, but as has been said before, that's a problem with how guns are written, not with the gunslinger class itself. If you took all instances of "gun" out of the class and replaced it with "crossbow" or something, I doubt you'd see as much complaint.