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If you haven't read the Scenario card "Them Ogres Ain't Right" and the Villain card "Mammy Graul" from Hook Mountain then be warned... there are spoilers below...
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So... in the rule book it says:
Rules: The Golden Rule
If a card and this rulebook are ever in conflict, the card should be considered correct. If cards conflict with one another, then Adventure Path cards overrule adventures, adventures overrule scenarios, scenarios overrule locations, locations overrule characters, and characters overrule other card types. Despite this hierarchy, if one card tells that you cannot do something and another card tells you that you can, comply with the card that tells you that you cannot.
Now, Them Ogres Ain't Right is a Scenario card so it trumps almost everything else.
There are several times during this scenario that you have to summon and face a henchman (Ancient Skeletons and a Bandit are almost guaranteed). I just finished playing it and also managed to find Zombie Horde and Skeleton Horde barriers.
Q) Should the Summoned Henchman be placed next to the Scenario card?
Just for kicks I decided to say that they definitely ARE. I also, long ago, decided to ignore the rule about ignoring summoned cards above the card limit, so used some dice to keep track of the number of henchmen defeated during the scenario so I didn't run out of Skeletons or anything silly like that.
As a result I had a count of 24 Henchman cards the first time I (finally) found Mammy Graul in the eighth location... and 27 Henchman the second time we fought her.
Valeros dealt with the first encounter with his trusty Glaive. Lem helped out with Poog + Zarongel (2 dice + 3) + singing a rousing ballad, Harsk added a Blessing of Lamashtu and others chipped in too for "7d10 + 1d4 + 8 + re-roll once if you fail". No problem :)
The tricky thing now was that the villain was now shuffled into the woods, so couldn't be sure who would find her and time was running out.
On the 29th turn, Seelah had the pleasure of finding Mammy and THAT was (finally!) a villain fight worth having! The game was 6-character solitaire and Seelah had "5d8 + 1d6 + 4d4 + 11 + 1 re-roll if you fail the first time". Managed to get 51 on the first roll which just over the 46 needed to win.
Two and a half hours well spent!
Chief Technical Officer
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Summoned things never go anywhere but back in the box when you're done with them. Think of it as the rule that breaks the golden rule if you like.
...I also, long ago, decided to ignore the rule about ignoring summoned cards above the card limit
That rule almost never comes up in play due to the "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else" metarule. When multiple characters have to summon and encounter a thing, the first one summons it, encounters it, and puts it back in the box, then the next summons it, and so on. So no matter how many characters there are, as long as there's at least one copy of the thing in the box, they all encounter it.
The only reason that rule would come into play is if there aren't *any* copies of a thing in the box, or if something specifically told you to summon a number of things at once (which I don't think we actually do in Rise of the Runelords).
Summoned things never go anywhere but back in the box when you're done with them. Think of it as the rule that breaks the golden rule if you like.
I knew this but fancied a challenge :) When the second "summon and encounter six henchmen" card came up I was a little unsure, but thought we'd press on regardless.
Perhaps a future rulebook versino should add this as a "cannot" rule? E.g. "After encountering a Summoned Henchman (bane/card?) it cannot be placed anywhere except back in the box"
At the moment the rules say: "After evading or resolving all checks against a summoned card, banish it unless you’re instructed otherwise."
...which I'm sure plenty of people will trip over.
...I also, long ago, decided to ignore the rule about ignoring summoned cards above the card limitThat rule almost never comes up in play due to the "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else" metarule. When multiple characters have to summon and encounter a thing, the first one summons it, encounters it, and puts it back in the box, then the next summons it, and so on. So no matter how many characters there are, as long as there's at least one copy of the thing in the box, they all encounter it.
The only reason that rule would come into play is if there aren't *any* copies of a thing in the box, or if something specifically told you to summon a number of things at once (which I don't think we actually do in Rise of the Runelords).
Ah, a good point well made, Sir. I hadn't thought of it that way. Again, the RAW combined with the summoning hordes in the early Adventures kind of trained me to think that it refered to the hordes.
Again, might be worth tweaking this in a future rulebook change (or removing the sentence completely). For reference, the RAW currently says: "If you need to summon or add a number of cards and there aren’t enough copies of that card in the box, the current player decides how to distribute the cards that are there; ignore the rest."
I think you could just remove this. In general, in the game, if you cannot do something, you just ignore that bit of the card and move on (right?), e.g. if you close a location and its "When Permanently Closed" says "discard a card" then you just do nothing if you have an empty hand.
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Chief Technical Officer
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At the moment the rules say: "After evading or resolving all checks against a summoned card, banish it unless you’re instructed otherwise."
...which I'm sure plenty of people will trip over.
In Skull & Shackles, we need to keep that rule for sure, but we should probably amend it to "After evading or resolving all checks against a summoned card, banish it unless the summoning card tells you otherwise."
I think you could just remove ["If you need to summon or add a number of cards and there aren’t enough copies of that card in the box, the current player decides how to distribute the cards that are there; ignore the rest."].
Nope. While it shouldn't come up often in RotR, it may come up more often in S&S.
Well, referring to scenarios from S&S to justift the RotR rulebook is cheating :)
Hopefully I'll get a chance to be part of the playtest then I'll know more!
@Cheez - yes, that's the correct way to play it, as confirmed by Vic's posts above.
I just enjoyed the challenge - was great fun to face down a villain that needed us to pass a "Combat 46" check! :)
@Cheez - yes, that's the correct way to play it, as confirmed by Vic's posts above.
I just enjoyed the challenge - was great fun to face down a villain that needed us to pass a "Combat 46" check! :)
RAWR! Mammy smash!
@Nathaniel, I think there is effectively a rule which says something like "Summoned cards cannot be placed anywhere after the encounter except back in the box, unless the summoned card itself tells you otherwise".
Since this is a "cannot" it is absolute and the Golden Rule still applies.
We just need the bit above written into the rules somewhere and we're Golden. So to speak.
Huh. I thought we had put that in already. Will look at the wording.
My group also played that way, came across the barriers too, it was quite fun. A truly challenging villain.
The discussion over the ruling concerning this scenario and summoned cards has come up again over at BGG. I answered it to the best of my ability but then this thread was pointed out.
Here's the thread over at BGG:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1119382/ancient-skeleton-mama-graul
It seems some things discussed here in this thread (not the BGG one) didn't make it into the FAQ/Errata nor did it make it into the V3 version of the rules, so I'm having a bit of trouble understanding if that was intentionally left out because the thought on it changed, or if the ruling discussed here in this thread stands as it is, or what.
My posts concerning my confusion is as follows (You can stop reading this post here and go look at the BGG thread, as the following posts are all there; I'm just mentioning them here for reference to people that don't wish to go view the thread at BGG):
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http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/14817281#14817281
Normally, I'd say the old 'All summoned cards are returned to the box after being dealt with,' however, the new V3 rules do state
"After evading or resolving all checks against a summoned card,
banish it unless you’re instructed otherwise."The scenario card states that henchman are added to the scenario after being defeated, which is being 'instructed otherwise.'
So in this instance, I'd say that even though the card is summoned, it'd go with the Scenario.
To this:
[...]Summoned cards do not ever go anywhere but back to the box after the encounter.That response is for the FAQ question concerning summoned cards going to location decks because of other effects.
And that has been added to the V3 rulebook.Do summoned cards ever get returned to location decks?
No. Summoned cards don't come out of location decks, so they can't return to them—they always get banished to the box when you're done with them.
Resolution: On page 13 of the rulebook, add the following after the sentence "If the summoned card is a villain or henchman, defeating it does not allow you to close a location or win the scenario—ignore any such text on those cards":
"Summoned cards are not part of any location deck."
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http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/14817414#14817414
I cannot find any reference to it having been changed in the FAQ/Errata.[...]
Didn't the scenario rule in question receive errata to the effect that only defeated henchmen from a location deck should be placed under the card and contribute to Mammy's difficulty? Or am I just going crazy?
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http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/14819138#14819138
The "instructed otherwise" reference in the rulebook means that unless something instructs you to do something different by particularly referencing what to do with "summoned cards" or that particular card by name. Them Ogres Ain't Right doesn't specifically mention summoned cards, so it isn't instructing you to do otherwise. (Some of that knowledge comes from S&S playtest.)
As for the specific question at hand, that it is only the henchman in the location decks and no any summoned henchman from Mammy or from barriers is confirmed here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qgzb?Them-Ogres-Aint-Right-and-summoned-henchm enAlso note that Mike mentions that as the only reason you don't loose every time, so that explains why you lost everytime.
First, it does specifically reference those cards because it specifically references defeated henchmen. It doesn't specifically reference non-summoned defeated henchmen, therefore it's a blanket reference of all defeated henchmen.
Not everyone has access to the S&S playtest documentation, testing results, or rules discussions, so using that information as a basis doesn't really help much, but the knowledge that it's there means hopefully a FAQ/Errata update will come soon concerning this.
That being said, I'm fine with the thread you posted, however, those rulings were made more than half a month ago yet a FAQ/Errata wasn't made outside of that thread. Added on top of that, a new version of the rulebook (V3) has come out, also leaving it up to 'unless instructed otherwise.' (That 'cannot go anywhere except back to the box' didn't make it into the FAQ/Errata nor did it make it into the rules even after that discussion, so it seems to me it was pointedly left out.)
I suppose the thread will have to do somewhat as an official response, but it really needs to be errata'd if this instance of 'instructed otherwise' doesn't count as 'instructed otherwise.' Otherwise, things are just going to get more confusing down the road when another thing like this happens.
If you're driving a car and are told to turn left unless instructed otherwise, then you turn left... and when someone says to turn right, then you normally turn right at the next turn, then continue turning left again after that. They don't have to say 'instead of turning left, turn right'.
It's a given that being told a different set of directions to follow overwrites the default directions to follow, especially if the default directions to follow include the directions that you may be instructed to do something else, and you should do the something else then.
However, if you’re told to summon and encounter a card
that’s already in play, just imagine you have another copy of that card for the new encounter; this summoned copy ceases to exist at the end of the encounter.
Wouldn't this limit you to one of each summonable henchman type under the card? I assume that the first one is 'in play' under Mammy Graul and subsequent ones are copies, which disappear even if they do go under her.
Summoned cards never go anywhere other than back in the box. Ever. I will see if I can figure out what was behind "banish it unless you’re instructed otherwise."
Thank you muchly for your response.