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I read that in the US you can actually do that, with no legal ramifications whatsoever.
In my country, if you don't vaccinate your child, some very nice people dressed in blue will be coming to your door, forcibly taking your child to be vaccinated and probably incarcerating you fro child endangerment. Unless they just fine you into the ground.
Why wouldn't a person vaccinate a child?
Faith and personal beliefs are not an excuse.
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Trust me, there are those of us in the U.S. and U.K. that scream at the TV whenever anti-vaxxers open their mouths. And shake our heads in shame when yet another news story of yet another outbreak hits the news circuit.
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There are two things that are infinite. The universe and human stupidity. And I'm not so sure about the universe.
-Apocryphally Albert Einstien
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The United States is not Europe. Americans have a slightly different take on personal choice in such matters.
EDIT: And most people in the US look upon the anti-vaxxers with a combined sense of horror and disbelief. It's not like they're a majority. As typical of these kinds of things, the anti-vaxxers are a small group of extremely vocal/whacky people. Also, the original (redacted) medical study that fueled the movement was conducted in the UK.
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That said, "personal choice" isn't a viable defense for murder, except maybe in Texas.
Thomas Jefferson said, "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."
The "equal rights of others," to me, include the right not to have a segment of the population intentionally harboring infectous, child-killing diseases that could otherwise be eliminated.
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That said, "personal choice" isn't a viable defense for murder, except maybe in Texas.
Thomas Jefferson said, "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."
The "equal rights of others," to me, include the right not to have a segment of the population intentionally harboring infectous, child-killing diseases that could otherwise be eliminated.
Yeah, so I'm not going to defend the anti-vax movement because I don't believe their position is defensible (and is out-right stupid). I'm simply pointing out that different parts of the world have different cultures with different opinions/policies. That shouldn't surprise anyone.
Skeld, your edit makes your viewpoint a lot more clear -- thanks. (Without it, it initially seemed like you were defending them on that basis, which of course confused me.)
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That said, "personal choice" isn't a viable defense for murder, except maybe in Texas.
Murder is a tricky topic Kirth. There are a wide range of instances where one persons murder is another persons freedom. Abortion, Stand your ground laws, Death Penalty, and even vaccines, Dr. assisted suicide, Persistent vegitative states etc etc.
That said, my Texan children and I are are vaccinated against nearly everything the lone exception being influenza. The vaccines effectiveness in preventing influenza respiratory illness can be as low as 30%-40% so nothing gained nothing lost in my opinion.
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That's a dangerous path, really.
We've seen a miserable campaign about Swine flu vaccination that was schoolbook example 1A in what not to do. Shout down everyone who felt bad about taking the vaccine and call them murderers, lots of money going to big pharma at bad deals and worse oversight, lie about known facts to get more people to take it, media saturated with campaign propaganda, and so on. The issue was thiomersal, a mercury booster agent in the vaccine, that made many people question it.
Other than that, we in Sweden like our vaccinations, we generally know why they are offered, what the alternative is, and more or less every child gets the full set. Nor do we really have any substantial number of anti-vaccers. That horrible campaign shook things up, though, and it would not surprise me if vaccines taken dropped after that.
It doesn't matter that everyone takes them. What matters is that ENOUGH people take them, around 80% of a certain population will take them, providing "herd immunity" to the rest. Note, however, that this doesn't happen unless you actually reach 80%. So, when the swine vacc fanatics screamed that people were murderers for not taking their shots "because not achieving herd immunity would KILL A LOT OF OLD PEOPLE!!!", they were talking out of their butts. There was no way in Hell that more than 50% would take the vaccine anyway, and if I remember correctly, they achieved around 40%.
More importantly: Trust in vaccines correlates directly with trust in the government. Unless the government can show that they are PART of society, and live lives that resemble that of the average Joe Shmoe out there, it's likely that more and more people will start to refuse to let the government routinely inject their children with substances they have no way to check what it actually is. An American soldier once described to me that he got a number of shots once, ordered from above. When he asked what was in them, he did not get an answer, and he didn't dare refuse. After that, he had been very uncertain what that did. Had he been given something to lower his libido, was for example a question he couldn't quite find an answer to. Trust is a two-way street.
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More to the point, in the US the idea of "very nice people dressed in blue will be coming to your door, forcibly taking your child to be vaccinated and probably incarcerating you fro child endangerment" is considered a nightmare scenario at best and would lead to public outcry on a level that I imagine many non-US citizens would not believe. We do NOT like it when government agents come in and boss us around, ESPECIALLY when they do it by force.
Shout down everyone who felt bad about taking the vaccine and call them murderers, lots of money going to big pharma at bad deals and worse oversight, lie about known facts to get more people to take it, media saturated with campaign propaganda, and so on.
Sure. However, it should be noted that "exaggerations and lies often backfire" =/= "refusal to vaccinate is noble and virtuous."
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I actually chalk it up to the "it could be me" syndrome which we cultivate very well here in the US.
Winning the lottery? It could be me!
Becoming a billionaire CEO? It could be me!
End up with the side effects of a vaccine even though the chances of it happening are incredibly small? It could be me!
Is this sarcastic? Yep, but I see it quite a bit. I also think it's the reason we support the tax laws that we do. We COULD SOMEDAY benefit from them so why should I vote against myself? ...but that's another discussion entirely.
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Kirth: Completely agreed. Of course. I never said it was about nobility or virtue. It's about demonstrated greed and mishandling from the side of the government, and a lack of trust from the public as a result. If it keeps up, people will eventually no longer trust them enough to get their kids vaccinations. Which would be a horrible thing, on so many levels. Still, too many politicians regard any existing trust as something you can use to make a mint, and that has consequences.
This particular topic just came up amongst some of my friends on facebook, when one of my friends posted a picture stating "I'm not keeping my children from vaccination, I'm sparing them from it", and quite a few of us went absolutely nuts. What most anti-vaxxers fail to realizes is the fact that making sure their child not feeling bad for a few days is not as important as the herd immunity. THat is to say that vaccinations aren't for the individual, but for the herd. If every single person got vaccinated that could, than those that couldn't would never have to fear those terrible diseases that could so easily end their life.
But Sissyl pretty much has the right of it. Here in the USA we're all so trumped up on paranoia and distrust for the government and even our neighbors that most people can't think of the world outside their small little box.
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Granted a lot of that distrust is well earned.
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More to the point, in the US the idea of "very nice people dressed in blue will be coming to your door, forcibly taking your child to be vaccinated and probably incarcerating you fro child endangerment" is considered a nightmare scenario at best and would lead to public outcry on a level that I imagine many non-US citizens would not believe. We do NOT like it when government agents come in and boss us around, ESPECIALLY when they do it by force.
I used to work for Child Protective Services and literally that was what my job was at times. The problem is that we in the US consider something’s child endangerment and not others based on an out dated religious philosophy that hinders a logical acknowledgement of science.
Don't get me wrong. I believe that you should be able to believe anything you want but not if it interferes with others. Our country has lost sight of that in recent years. There are too many special agendas being pushed by the "faithful".
I think that if an adult doesn't want to get vaccinated they have every right but if a Parent isn't going to get their child vaccinated they really shouldn't have the right to have that child around other children. They could get other children sick. Even then, they just started doing whooping cough boosters for adults because of the amount of children not getting vaccinated against things like that who have been spreading new strains and medicine resistant strains around to people.
I don't see how anyone else's belief on vaccines should impact my health or the health of my children...If someone doesn't want to seek preventative treatment for a communicable disease then I say they shouldn't be allowed to be around other people. Sound extreme? Good it should. I don't feel like wasting time and money because some jerk wouldn't get a shot based on "scientific evidence" that has been proven wrong multiple times or a religious ideology that hinders progress.
More to the point, in the US the idea of "very nice people dressed in blue will be coming to your door, forcibly taking your child to be vaccinated and probably incarcerating you fro child endangerment" is considered a nightmare scenario at best and would lead to public outcry on a level that I imagine many non-US citizens would not believe. We do NOT like it when government agents come in and boss us around, ESPECIALLY when they do it by force.
I know more people who would defend the government for the action than condemn it, including myself.
I may be wrong, but I believe a lot of school districts require vaccinations in order for a student to attend classes. I think most anti-vax folks home schoolers, and those tend to draw in some strange ducks as it is (I'm not saying all home schoolers are strange, merely strange folk are more likely to become home schoolers).
More to the point, in the US the idea of "very nice people dressed in blue will be coming to your door, forcibly taking your child to be vaccinated and probably incarcerating you fro child endangerment" is considered a nightmare scenario at best and would lead to public outcry on a level that I imagine many non-US citizens would not believe. We do NOT like it when government agents come in and boss us around, ESPECIALLY when they do it by force.I know more people who would defend the government for the action than condemn it, including myself.
You and I walk in very different circles then. I imagine it's a regional thing.
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Scenes like this don't exactly excite a lot of Americans.
And that was one of the better situations. I mean no pregnant women were shot in the head or entire complexes full of people burnt to the ground.
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More to the point, in the US the idea of "very nice people dressed in blue will be coming to your door, forcibly taking your child to be vaccinated and probably incarcerating you fro child endangerment" is considered a nightmare scenario at best and would lead to public outcry on a level that I imagine many non-US citizens would not believe. We do NOT like it when government agents come in and boss us around, ESPECIALLY when they do it by force.
Well, my country is a former communist/socialist republic. We did thing very differently here. And some stuff still sticks.
I like the fact that the government refuses to allow people to endanger their own children, and through that other people's children by letting them not vaccinate them.Nobody likes it when their government bosses people around. The last time someone did that here, we burned the parliament building, caused a republic-wide riot (almost a civil war) and made sure that the man didn't remain in office.
Do you really believe all of the unregistered Roma children in Serbia are vaccinated?
No, some are. But most of them prefer not to be registered.
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I used to work for Child Protective Services and literally that was what my job was at times. The problem is that we in the US consider something’s child endangerment and not others based on an out dated religious philosophy that hinders a logical acknowledgement of science....
I don't feel like wasting time and money because some jerk wouldn't get a shot based on "scientific evidence" that has been proven wrong multiple times or a religious ideology that hinders progress.
FWIW, I've worked on vaccine development, and most of the crazy anti-vaccine crowd in my experience rather than being against it on religious grounds tended to be on the far left of the political spectrum and beholden to some pretty bizarre views about evil big pharma, "corporations", doctors and scientists doing things that weren't "natural", etc.
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Being a fairly religious sort myself and knowing quite a few of such, likewise I haven't seen much share of anti-vaccine folks in person. I occasionally hear about one over the internet, but they're never someone I know personally. Friend of a friend of a friend (or Acquaintance et. al.) at best.
Nor is religious reasoning ever usually brought up in the context of this subject.
I'm 100% okay with schools regulating that non-vaccined students can't attend (with reasonable exemptions for those who have been affirmed by a doctor to be incompatible with the vaccine somehow), with forcing those children whose parents are dead-set against it to be homeschooled or otherwise kept away from other children they could harm or affect. But in the end I believe it should be the parent(s)'s choice to do what is best for their children, not the government's.
Nor is religious reasoning ever usually brought up in the context of this subject.
I've had at least one friend tell me that vaccinations were the "mark of the Beast," and who opposed them on some sort of Obama-is-the-Antichrist conspiracy stance. But, yeah, the majority of the anti-vaxers I know have been the "don't cooperate with evil Big Pharma!" crowd.
You and I walk in very different circles then. I imagine it's a regional thing.More to the point, in the US the idea of "very nice people dressed in blue will be coming to your door, forcibly taking your child to be vaccinated and probably incarcerating you fro child endangerment" is considered a nightmare scenario at best and would lead to public outcry on a level that I imagine many non-US citizens would not believe. We do NOT like it when government agents come in and boss us around, ESPECIALLY when they do it by force.I know more people who would defend the government for the action than condemn it, including myself.
very much so. The only people who are anti vaccines roundabouts my way are nutty hipsters who are usually not long for NYC. I would also say that there is a strong correlation between anti vaccines philosophy and population density.
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My local school district requires vaccinations. So how does everyone feel about pox parties?
as a little girl my wife was made to play with a kid she hated until she got the chicken pox. I have never had it and am at the age where it could do me real harm, so i need to be careful.
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FWIW, I've worked on vaccine development, and most of the crazy anti-vaccine crowd in my experience rather than being against it on religious grounds tended to be on the far left of the political spectrum and beholden to some pretty bizarre views about evil big pharma, "corporations", doctors and scientists doing things that weren't "natural", etc.
Not having any children myself, I am pleased to say that I don't run into anti-vaxxers very often. But I did some internet searches and you're just as likely to run into anti-vaccine arguments on The Huffington Post as on Infowars.
Clearly, in America, quackery and pseudoscience transcend ideological divisions.
U-S-A! U-S-A!
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My brother, his wife and his in-laws are anti-vaccination. It has nothing to do with religion but rather a complete belief in natural healing and medicines. I know the school district his two kids go to 'require' vaccination but there are numerous loopholes to get through that. It's one of the topics we pretty much completely disagree on.
As far as the whole vaccination by force, I just don't see that happening here. Fines, sure. But the child being taken away and vaccinated against the parent's will doesn't seem likely to me. There are far too many parties that wouldn't go for that. I'd rather see efforts made to educate people on why vaccination is so important and more effort made to dispel the myths surrounding it, funded by the fines placed on non-vaccinated children. Of course that's probably the Optimist in me speaking.
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I live just north of Berkeley, California, hotbed of "liberalism" in the U.S., where failure to immunize is considered something to brag about by most parents.
I simply point out my uncle-in-law, on crutches for life from a 1950's polio infection, and the fact that a crippling disease long thought extinct in the U.S. is beginning to rear its ugly head again.
Whooping Cough doesn't scare Berkeley parents. I've met multiple parents who say they'd rather see their child have whooping cough than get vaccinated.
So it's really a case of, "Most people survive this disease anyway, so why should I inject my child with noxious chemicals instead of taking my chances?"
As a mathematician, and knowing the laws of averages, I vaccinate my kids, thanks.
American poster here... The vaccinations=autism (Thank you, Andrew Wakefield, for causing all those measles outbreaks) view is not only wrong, it is also offensive. I think we can all agree that even the most severe forms of autism are far more fun than, for example, polio. If you are so concerned about your kids turning out autistic like me that you would rather risk them painfully dying, you are effectively telling me that it is better to be dead than to be like me.
I completely understand the "thimerosal has mercury in it, and mercury is bad!" argument, as I react to mercury the way others react to spiders, snakes, or mice, but the fact is that thimerosal is not present in most vaccines. Vaccines do not generally contain thimerosal, which does not cause autism, which is still better than dying of measles. I have all my vaccines, and the most harm they ever caused was making my arm sore.
Visit the Anti-Vaccine Body Count for more information.
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Lot of anti-vaxxer hate on this thread - which is good. The herd must be protected, even at the sacrifice of the few...or the one.
I'm going to come at this from a slightly different angle an partially represent the other side. It doesn't concern a human - it concerns a pet and vaccinations, namely a cat.
In November 2011 I took both my cats in for their annual vaccinations. I had done this for both of them annually since I acquired them from a shelter in 2006 - wanting to be a responsible owner I wanted them to have the best health and quality of life that was possible.
Two weeks after vaccination, one of my cats developed a bump at the injection site. Two weeks after that, the bump was removed as part of a biopsy and was diagnosed as aggressive fibrosarcoma - aka ISS (injection site sarcoma) or a VAS (vaccination site sarcoma). See, what the vet didn't tell me was that since the early 90's when they changed vaccination protocols to an annual format, they started noticing more cases of cancer in cats. So instead of giving them injections in the scruff - they started giving them injections in the limbs. So they could cut them off.
Both my cats are indoor cats, they had their shots when they were kittens (and boosters) so the need for Feline Rabies is mandated by the state, while the feline leukemia shot is at the owners discretion (but owners are pressured into giving their cats these shots, even if indoor only).
So two year total: one right leg amputated, around 20k in vet bills and a tumor on the left site (Fel shot) she's still alive but in the process of dying. I'm not going to explain the vet bills beyond the fact that it was a responsibility I undertook (to take care of these animals) and I am seeing that responsibility to the end.
So apparently some cats react to the aluminum adjuvant used with vaccines. In 93 there was an established correlation between vaccinations and the rise of cancer in cats. They didn't tell this to pet owners though. When they switched from scruff to limb (so they can chop off said limb) they didn't tell us why they did that. Our vet Oncologist said if her cats were indoor only, she would never give them vaccinations beyond the initial ones they are given as kittens and the follow up.
I don't know how this ties to people. I suppose it doesn't beyond the fact that I am a person, and it has changed my perception on the situation and how I judge "anti-vaxxers" greatly. I cannot sue for damages because pharmaceutical companies (who helped change the vaccination frequency and requirements for animals) are immune to lawsuit. Also, at this point I am just trying to keep her alive while she is still happy and playing (3-legged terror that runs around and still destroys everything) so going after the company that made the drugs wouldn’t help her.
I can't register my pet licenses since their vaccinations are out of date and I am in violation. If I give the affected cat another shot it would turn into another tumor (she has multiple tumors as it is), yet I am compelled by the law to do so. They haven't come by my place to demand that I give them the rabies shots - if they did I would send them out head first onto the street (that plus any cops they would bring with them). Luckily the vet who administered the shot doesn’t push the rabies thing because he knows how I feel about vaccination shots. I don’t blame him for doing what he did –for the fact that she devolved cancer at each injection site. I do wish that I had done more research on the subject and didn’t follow the “herd” on what to do to keep my pets healthy and safe. To be the cause of pain and ultimately the death of something you love, by your own hand is something that is very hard to reconcile or forgive.
So, there it is.
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You Prime Material mortals are just plain weird. {goes back to smoking ground-up primo Art Bell and Denny Crane blend in a hookah}
Wow! Condolences, Auxmaulous!
Our calico did the same thing -- gave her a feline leukemia vaccine and she reacted and grew a tumor. We were lucky -- my wife spotted it early, and surgery was successful, so we were out under $1k total.
So I don't know what country you're in with mandatory vaccinations and registration. We're in the U.S., so we had to convert both our cats to indoor cats and no longer vaccinate them against "outdoor" diseases like rabies and leukemia. Forces us to wash our hands religiously every time we meet another cat, but this falls into the category of, "I know that I am choosing not to vaccinate my cat, and I accept that this means I must isolate my cat from outside contact."
Terrible that they're still forcing you to get vaccinations that react. Sometimes, they do. And you have to figure out how to protect your companion *and* the rest of the population.
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American poster here... The vaccinations=autism (Thank you, Andrew Wakefield, for causing all those measles outbreaks) view is not only wrong, it is also offensive. I think we can all agree that even the most severe forms of autism are far more fun than, for example, polio. If you are so concerned about your kids turning out autistic like me that you would rather risk them painfully dying, you are effectively telling me that it is better to be dead than to be like me.
I completely understand the "thimerosal has mercury in it, and mercury is bad!" argument, as I react to mercury the way others react to spiders, snakes, or mice, but the fact is that thimerosal is not present in most vaccines. Vaccines do not generally contain thimerosal, which does not cause autism, which is still better than dying of measles. I have all my vaccines, and the most harm they ever caused was making my arm sore.
Visit the Anti-Vaccine Body Count for more information.
Except, you know, mercury in it's natural form is bad for you, especially the fumes. In a chemical compound, however, it can be completely harmless.
I eat alot of fish, I don't have autism...yet...
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I'm in Los Angeles (a country unto itself - the land of eternal ego).
I was under the impression that annual rabies vacs were mandatory- they are here in the county of LA. I'm glad you got wide margins with your calico NH. I know that some cats and dogs get temp bumps from the shots - which the adjuvant is supposed to do - cause inflammation so the body can develop antibodies to the chopped up virus.
BTW - I’m not anti-medicine or even entirely anti-vac, I just question their use (and in many cases the increased use) in everyday life. In the end, a vaccine may be the cure for cancer - some work has been done in this area where the affecting tumor is removed and then used to create a vaccine.
I just wanted to present a viewpoint from a person who was affected by vaccinations in a negative way, where the cause of the disease has been irrefutably tied to vaccinations by every doctor involved in her care.
I know two people that have developed neurological disorders due to a flu shot. It's supposed to be extrememly rare, but watching the effect on my uncle barely being able to walk after only a year, no thanks. I'll take the flu.
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Xzaral,
And I'm sure that will go better than explaining evolution or climate change has.
The fact of the matter is, I have had success explaining to people one on one. The company I work for offers a Hep B Vaccination series to all employees upon hire (or at a later time if they choose), as well as an annual Flu vaccination (or will pay for it at your doctor's) at no cost to the employee. I'm amazed by the number of people who turn either down.
When the topic does get brought up I offer my own knowledge into the processes as well as several websites to visit offering more information, plus describe my own experiences. Several people who didn't want to get the vaccine because of possibly catching something have changed opinions based on my discussions with them. It of course doesn't work every time, and I don't bring it up unless asked about it. But I do what I can to spread better information which in turn I hope gets spread out to others. But hey, just my own experience on it.
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I know two people that have developed neurological disorders due to a flu shot. It's supposed to be extrememly rare, but watching the effect on my uncle barely being able to walk after only a year, no thanks. I'll take the flu.
Will you take that chance with polio, child paralysis, diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus?
I wouldn't.
Who takes flu shots? Why?
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I know two people that have developed neurological disorders due to a flu shot. It's supposed to be extrememly rare, but watching the effect on my uncle barely being able to walk after only a year, no thanks. I'll take the flu.Will you take that chance with polio, child paralysis, diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus?
I wouldn't.
Who takes flu shots? Why?
Those things aren't really related. Taking a vaccine to prevent you or others getting a life-ending disease doesn't really compare to risking your life by taking a shot to hopefully prevent the inconvenience of being sick for a few days.
I'm just saying why I would not ever get a flu shot.People take flu shots because they are told it will decrease their chances of catching the flu. Some folks can;t afford getting the flu or being sick for days at a time. My uncle was a small business owner, and couldn't afford to miss that much work. I'm sure if someone had told him that taking the flu shot meant a slight chance of being unable to work for over a year, im sure he would have rather been sick for a few days instead.
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Granted a lot of that distrust is well earned.
Suddenly reminded of all those forced sterilizations in our nation's past.
Still gonna vaccinate, but taking the government at face value seems almost antiquated now, and that's before throwing our dysfunctional and increasingly tribal news media into that paranoid mix.
:(
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The tragic anecdote of your uncle does not make your position regarding the flu shot any less superstitious or foolish.
Wow, self-righteous much?
The apathetic stance that a person’s individual experience is of no consequence because established science and social stigma tell you otherwise is repellent. Kryz had a personal experience with a vac reaction with a family member and you are calling him foolish?
Sickening