magus woe


Rules Questions


Late to the party here, but one of my players has nabbed himself a Magus. Now 4th level.

Am I reading it right that if he preps Shocking Grasp for all four of his daily spell slots, and he uses Spell Recall after using it (with a 6 Arcane Pool), he can do ten attacks per day of weapon damage+4d6 Shock damage+str?

Is there anything like Concentration Checks or Attacks of Opportunity to even this up a bit?


If you're asking a Magus if she or he will be messing up a concentration attack, you're in for a rude awakening.

You've got the right idea. It's pretty powerful; Now put the Magus in a situation where a weapon with a shocking treat doesn't actually help. A delicate diplomatic situation.


PrinceDogWaterIII wrote:

If you're asking a Magus if she or he will be messing up a concentration attack, you're in for a rude awakening.

You've got the right idea. It's pretty powerful; Now put the Magus in a situation where a weapon with a shocking treat doesn't actually help. A delicate diplomatic situation.

Oh I can easily sculpt encounters where smackdowns aren't the option, but it just makes all the other melee characters feel a bit pointless.


All the other melee characters are pointless. Spellcasters > martials.


Zhayne wrote:
All the other melee characters are pointless. Spellcasters > martials.

I run a low magic game. fighter, barbarian, rogue, pally, non-magic hunter variant ranger, and a monk. the magus is the only spellchucker.

So basically you're saying the problem is with the magus rules RAW.


Well, every spellstrike still requires you to cast defensively (DC 17 concentration for a level 1 spell) IF (big if) he is in a threatened square. Spell combat only helps you boost your concentration by reducing your attack bonus. So yes, there are still concetration checks & aoo risks; but a smart magus will be able to obviate those.

For example, he can cast shocking grasp far from the enemy (no need for con check), move to the nemy, and get 1 attack (the free attack from any touch attack).

It's something a LOT of people forget; the "capstone" of the magus is the ability to cast WITHOUT a need for concentration checks.

Edit: the magus is a sometimes confusing class; I made several mistakes myself when I started playing one, but with a lot of research, I found some answers.


williamoak wrote:
For example, he can cast shocking grasp far from the enemy (no need for con check), move to the enemy, and get 1 attack (the free attack from any touch attack).

Yeah he's already cottoned on to that tactic. He'll let the other meatshields tangle with the enemy then swoop in for the killsteal.


Master of Many Style Monks with Crane Style will ruin your players day, at least for now. Your player only has one attack per round he can make currently, the monk deflects that attack and takes no damage. Don't overuse it though.

If he casts a spell while in an enemies threatened area he will provoke an AoO unless he casts defensively. See here. Since spell combat is a full round action he will normally have to be in an area where he is threatened by the enemy, so make sure he is rolling his concentration checks. He also can't take 10 on them as far as I'm aware.


Claxon wrote:
If he casts a spell while in an enemies threatened area he will provoke an AoO unless he casts defensively. See rul=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html]here[/url]. Since spell combat is a full round action he will normally have to be in an area where he is threatened by the enemy, so make sure he is rolling his concentration checks. He also can't take 10 on them as far as I'm aware.

Thanks for that. I don't want to ruin the magus' day, but I don't want him to cast too big a shadow over everyone else, either.


Look, in my own experience mangalore, the shocking grasp tactic becomes old fast. At low levels, it's great; but the moment anything with spell resistance shows up he'll start cursing.

In the end, the guy is using his class for the one thing it's good at: nova attacks. Endurance runs will push them a LOT more than any of the other warriors (since even 10 shocking graps is not a lot if you're using high-individual encounters).

Edit: the "cast from far away and swoop in" tactic does NOT require spell combat, so still no con checks necessary.


williamoak wrote:
In the end, the guy is using his class for the one thing it's good at: nova attacks.

wazzat?


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Basically, he can do a limited amount of very powerful attacks. A "nova" is a single attack that does as much damage as possible. At level 8, i've personally managed to do nearly 100 damage on a critical spellstrike. Then again, I can only do that about 3 times a day (my other slots are filled with utility spells & defensive spells) (my arcane pool is used for other things) (AND I have to be lucky enough to crit, which has happened like 6 times in the last 4 months). My own magus focuses a lot more on keeping himself "tanky" since everybody else in my group are casters, and much more fragile than myself...

Liberty's Edge

mangalore wrote:
williamoak wrote:
For example, he can cast shocking grasp far from the enemy (no need for con check), move to the enemy, and get 1 attack (the free attack from any touch attack).
Yeah he's already cottoned on to that tactic. He'll let the other meatshields tangle with the enemy then swoop in for the killsteal.

Tsk, Tsk! That's Kill Secured!


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I much prefer kill secured. Lately, in my own game, we've been having an enemy that's fond of teleporting away right before we can kill it, which is frustrating.

Scarab Sages

You could have enemies that survive his attack ready an action against him for when he casts a spell, if they hit then it's another concentration check for him, or equip some archers with thistle arrows to deal bleed damage for more concentration checks. Granted these options are more annoying than than anything else.
If you wanted to be a bit evil you could always throw a swarm or a dretch at the magus.

Silver Crusade

New question, old subject?
Level 6 magus, not sure of feats, saying he can cast shocking grasp pre combat(I know make him touch something , like shaking hands, besides that stuff) attack, burst, spellstrike, shocking grasp again? How long can one hold a spell? GM discretion?

Scarab Sages

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Here are the rules for holding a charge

Quote:
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

A magus gets an exemption from the "If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges" part of the rules for his weapons.

Your magus is correct in what he can do, and he can hold a charge forever. Of interesting note is that he can't even touch himself, if he goes to scratch his nose he gets a shocking grasp to the face.


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A properly built Magus will be able to handle himself in combat for just as long as any primary melee. Spell Combat can be used with Cantrips, so you take Spell Blending to get Touch of Fatigue on your list and you have an unlimited number of extra attacks via Spellstrike. Combine that with a Dervish Dancing Kensai Magus that's Dex based taking Spell perfection, Spell Pen/Greater Spell Pen, and Metamagic feats to prepare the spells as Maximized, Empowered, Intensified and different elemental types and you have a force to be reckoned with.

It sounds like the Magus in your game is a little more toned down than this, but to be honest your melee characters can be just as powerful with the right build. The thing is, if you have a party of people who build characters but don't really build them with any sort of combat focus in mind, one person joining the party taking even remotely well though-out options will destroy everyone else on the damage charts. That can be done with almost any class.

Grand Lodge

What I have found is that adding many lower level minions helps a lot. And while it is true that a smart magus player will be able to catch on to that trick and save up his attacks.

You say that your campaign is a low-magic run. I run low-magic as well, and when people toss magic around indiscriminately there is a social repercussion that can develop as well. Of course, in my campaign, magic is generally utilitarian. Spells that can be abused for criminal activity are regulated (though the PCs have access to them as they select new spells.) So they have to be careful of how they display their magic, lest they become targets of spellthieves... or agents of a villainous wizard!

Of course, what I am saying is that there are ways to up the difficulty for your magus. What I would do is have a recurring villain that devises a way to reduce the effectiveness of electricity against him... That should bring his effectiveness down while allowing the other melee-ers to not be affected.


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Pathfinder low-magic isn't. In particular, low magic actually makes casters of all types stronger than their non-caster counterparts.

A magus will shine in low-magic settings compared to mundane martials without the usual array of magic items.

Grand Lodge

I agree, blahpers, but I was prepared for that in my campaign. I don't think that Mangalore was though...

Shadow Lodge

Well, it does work, but a creature with DR5 and Electricity Resistance 10 can seriously hurt his damage. Unlike most martials, he has to deal with BOTH elemental resistance and DR. Toss out some air elementals and see how well he can do damage. Large is a CR5, Huge is a CR 7, either one is fine for a 4th level party (which is a CR8 easily), maybe add some templates. It doesn't completely invalidate his build as long as he has some non-nova tactics are included in his build, but it does help other martials shine.

Aldarionn wrote:
Combine that with a Dervish Dancing Kensai Magus

Just pointing out that a Strength-based Falcata Kensai Magus can do as much damage with less nova but better average. Heck, I've seen it do more.


The "Wheeeee dice!" factor may be skewing your perceptions here.

The Magus probably only has an 16 Str at max since he needs Int at a good level (also be thankful he's Str based and not a Dervish Dancer, so his AC's a bit lower than it could be). 4th level with Power Attack and Shocking Grasp he's doing somewhere in the ballpark of 1d6+7+4d6. Average of ~24 damage, minimum of 11. Not too shabby, but the minimum hurts (maximum is good though).

Mosey on over to the average Barbarian at this level. Greatsword, Power Attack, maxed Str (probably 20 at 4th level without raging).

Probably doing 2d6+13 while not Raging. Average 20 damage, minimum 15. He can do that all day long, without burning any resources like your Magus is doing, and he has higher HP, probably a higher AC (since he can wear Medium armor), and at a higher to-hit bonus (from BaB and higher Str).

For approximately 12 rounds a day with 14 Con (about 4 full combats) he can kick it up a notch. +4 Str is +3 damage, +2 to-hit, for a new average of ~23 damage a swing. Minimum of 18.

So at this level the Magus has a 1 point boost in damage, maybe. Big whoop.

The Barbarian, if nothing else, is much more consistent. His minimum damage is significantly higher and he can do it all day long, the magus having at most a 4 point lead on average.

Fast forward to level 10. Shocking Grasp has long since capped out, but we'll assume your Magus is using the Intensify Spell plus Magical Lineage trick to boost his Shocking Grasp to 10d6 for free.

He's doing probably, with 20 Str and Power Attack, 1d6+9+10d6 without factoring in magic weapons. Average of 47, minimum of 20. But he gets a second swing for 1d6+11, and a possible third from Spellstrike for another 1d6+9. So total of 3d6+27+10d6, average of 72 damage a round if he hits with all his attacks.

Barbarian at this level is probably going to have 24 Str at least while not Raging. Probably has a good 2d6+18 going on out of Rage. Average of 35 damage on that swing.

Of course, at this level, with approximately 24 rounds of Rage, he's probably never going to not be Raging. So realistically he's got at least 2d6+22 going at all times. He's got two attacks of that for 4d6+44 a round if both connect (at a much higher to-hit than your Magus), average of 68. A good 4 less than the Magus, and he can do it all day long. And probably has Pounce (more full attacks more often)

This is the least favorable level for the Barbarian from here on out. Next level he automatically boosts his damage/to-hit by 1 (two, really, that 30 Str while Raging ups his 1.5x bonus fro +4 damage to +5) with Greater Rage, and gets a third attack, just like the Magus. The Magus finally gets +8 BaB, boosting his Power Attack by two. That bumps him up to an average of 78 damage a round.

The Barbarian is now sitting pretty at roughly 6d6+72 while Raging. An average of 93 damage if all connect. With Pounce. And none of the neat magic items for Barbarians (like Furious and Courageous weapons) that boost their damage to ridiculous extremes even over what a Magus can achieve on a crit in some cases.

The Barbarian trails by an insignificant amount in damage at his weaker levels and the Magus' stronger levels (4 and 5, and 10, at 9th they should be almost exactly equal since the Magus loses 3 damage from a lesser damage die), but jumps ahead significantly at levels the Magus starts capping out, and levels where the Magus' 3/4 BaB keeps them off of gaining a new Iterative for a level.

After 11th, it's downhill for the Magus. He's no longer the star of the show (and he was only barely before), though he's not terrible.

The Magus is a solid class, yes. But the damage disparity between core frontliners, where it exists at all, is much smaller than it appears when you really work it out. Even in favorable conditions (an extra Str point here, a bit more enhancement on the weapon there) he's only about 2-6 points ahead of anyone else, and only on some alternating levels where he's hitting a peak and the other classes are going to next level.

This isn't even getting started on how DR and Energy Resistance can screw a Magus hard.


Energy Resistance is always your friend too.

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