So one of my players has let slip that he's end goal for his dwarf barbarian is to challenge Gorum to a fight and take his place... I'm conflicted as to should I allow this? I mean I highly doubt he could succeed but I mean if he did.. But yea, what would other GM's do in this situation?
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The gods in Pathfinder are so far beyond mortals that they don't need stats, they just win. Other gods can't even beat gods. It took several gods just to trap one god. If you really want to have a PC fight a god, check out D&Ds Deities and Demigods.
Best of luck to the dwarf!
Actually some gods have stats even in Pathfinder, one example I could name is Achaekek the mantis god. It should be noted that it's a minor deity however.
I'd say to make your player aware of some details:
- first one being that it's an opponent way out of any mortals league, and he'd probably need to become a lesser deity first before he'd even have a chance
- second is that killing a god doesn't necessarily grant you his place, we've had a deity meet an unexpected end here already and somehow his place was taken over by his follower, no killer ever named if there was one in the first place
- third is that he'd need to somehow actually lure the god into meeting him face to face in some kind of physical or otherwise annihilable form. Otherwise well..how do you imagine killing the sky above you?
- fourth..gods have a bad habit of looking into their followers souls, if the barbarian goes off as Gorums follower until he gets to challenge him..he can expect the god to find out about it and make things hard for him
I'd let him try, but a barbarian is unlikely to solve any of the above concerns
Cheers guys, these are good points and mostly what I was thinking, I was part way tempted to inform him of the strength, if he still pushes I was going to have a trial, climbing a mounting fighting an army of his followers and if he somehow made it past that, bang whatever armor he would be wearing would become Gorum and all that would be left would be a mushy paste.
Mind you he would get some kind of reward for the effort just to have a fight,
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I would probably change it around a small bit, and let the trials, including a fight against an avatar of Gorum, lead up to him becoming a champion/general of Gorum instead - becoming a minor deity of sorts.
Thus granting him a chance of reaching his end goal without disrupting the expectations of the power of gods in your game world. And it gives you a bit more ownership of the narrative, while accommodating his ideas.
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If I remember correctly. The only “Gods” whose power can be taken thru combat are the Four Horsemen in the Apocalypse in the Book of the Damned Vol3. Plus most of the current Deities got the power thru the trials of the Starstone. But there are always fun ways for GM to make players to become gods.
I was running an Epic 3.5 Campaign were a player wanted to betray his Deity and take his place. Mostly because he feels that he can do a better job. I set it up so that he found a way to Syphon the deities portfolio one power at a time. Thus making the God weaker while he became stronger. This of course angered the God and he tried to find out who was stealing his power but the character played it smart enough to stay hidden and put the blame on others. To be honest he would have succeeded but one of the players found out and was using that knowledge to blackmail him and in one adventure he let it slip to an archbishop of that church what was going on and the character had to shift to a different plane in order to survive and was never seen again.
Why not go mythic and try to become his own god? There is a mythic power that allows you to gain domains and accumulate your own followers.
However, the genral concensus (in pathfinder anyway) is that gods are 100 HD+ creatures that cant be defeated, which I can understand. He'll be more likely to be able to go into business by himself, steal all of gorum's followers, and kill gorum by lack of worshipers.
So one of my players has let slip that he's end goal for his dwarf barbarian is to challenge Gorum to a fight and take his place... I'm conflicted as to should I allow this? I mean I highly doubt he could succeed but I mean if he did.. But yea, what would other GM's do in this situation?
Let him chase his pot of gold. At least it's motivation for a character. Ultimately, however, it's a pipe dream for reasons stated above, assuming you're using the setting as-is. If you have a different divine setup, obviously the results will vary. F'rex, in my games, that's simply impossible, because the gods don't actually exist.
How you want to deal with it later on is the fun part, when he actually 'challenges' the guy. Options that spring to mind ...
1. Gorum laughs at the pitiful mortal, refuses to fight him because there would be no challenge in it.
2. Accepts challenge. Squishes dwarf. Resurrects dwarf. "Best two out of three?"
3. Impressed by dwarf's gumption, offers to make dwarf one of his right-hand men (if player wants to retire character).
Gorum would want a drinking contest.
Before even talking of the power and resources of a God...
What's the PC's current level? How much time (years?) would it take in real life to bring the campaign to a point where he can attempt such a thing?
And even before that, how does a mere mortal even start his trip in the world with "I want to kill a God"?
It's an awesome goal for the character to work towards, but as others have said, they'd have to be super high in levels to ever compete. The "Gorum's Champion" route is probably more practical, and still rewarding.
He'd have a much easier time of it if the Mythic rules were in effect, as has already been mentioned. He's the wrong class for it, though.
The one thing you DON'T want to happen is for the character to go through many trials only to face Gorum and get rofl-stomped. It would be a huge letdown if a player spent a bunch of effort working towards a dream only to be told "Yeah, you never had a chance to begin with."
I do find it odd that the character 'let slip' this information. I'd think he'd be trying to work together with you on how he can achieve his goals. If this revelation was accidental, then it sounds more like the player was looking to one up the GM or something.
The "best" way to defeat a deity is to find a way to imprison them. Then of course the followers of that deity would work to free him.
This way, you aren't worried about "overpowering" a deity, since that is really, really hard.
I'd cross that bridge when he gets to lvl20 with 10 mythic tiers.
It's a dream of his dwarf, and it's good to dream. It gives him passion, driving force. It probably won't happen though.
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Let him do it! That will give him drive to go through 20 levels + 10 mythic tiers. Through at him some of Gorum's best, most powerful worshipers. Then even a demigod.
And then, a showdown, wherein he was maybe a 10% chance, but still a fighting chance, of winning. Potentially beautiful roleplaying opportunity, the kind the player will be talking about forever, even if he loses.
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I would not allow him to accomplish it, but he can make it a goal as much as he likes. He would probably be labeled as crazy by anyone he tells his life-long goal to.
My game takes place in Golarion and it does contain the story of how Cayden Cailean drunkenly stumbled through the Test of the Starstone and came out the other end as a deity, but the players cannot take the same route.
I do not believe players should be given the license to do whatever they want in a RPG. They are there in the living world. They can impact it, but they cannot gain so much power to totally unbalance it...otherwise, the game may as well be scrapped.
Raistlin took on a god, and won. But that is because Krynn has wimpy gods. In the 1st edition AD&D hardcover that I used to have it even stated that the gods got uncomfortable when a character was 18th level. Of course, that was several editions ago and the gods have gotten a whole lot more powerful. I wonder if they are still as laughably weak in Krynn. Maybe only a handful of Mythic Tiers between them.
Actually some gods have stats even in Pathfinder, one example I could name is Achaekek the mantis god. It should be noted that it's a minor deity however.
I'd say to make your player aware of some details:
- first one being that it's an opponent way out of any mortals league, and he'd probably need to become a lesser deity first before he'd even have a chance
Well, even as a demigod, Achaekek has stats and "just win" conditions on par with the tarrasque as far as a mortal is concerned. It is the low end of the divine spectrum, but it has 34 hit dice, dr/epic, and regeneration that can not really be penetrated. So imagine what an actual god is like when their watch dog is that strong?
Although, Achaekek's stats might be the only one listed since it is the one you typically have to deal with first (and the last one you deal with) if you want to try something like this. I mean, that is its entire reason for existence, to kill mortals that try to gain divinity, particularly if it is through threatening deities.
Although, throwing the barbarian at an assassin god in his quest for divine power seems fairly metal. While it is meant as a full stop on the quest to kill Gorum, and would very likely kill him, it seems like a fantastic way to retire a character. Just make sure that the player knows that is what awaits him if he pursues this goal, and that he is cool with it.
Let him do it! That will give him drive to go through 20 levels + 10 mythic tiers. Through at him some of Gorum's best, most powerful worshipers. Then even a demigod.
And then, a showdown, wherein he was maybe a 10% chance, but still a fighting chance, of winning. Potentially beautiful roleplaying opportunity, the kind the player will be talking about forever, even if he loses.
This, this, a thousand times this.
Beating a god of combat and taking his place is a great retirement point for a character. Referring to him in later chronicles is great, and really allows your players to feel that they've left their mark and honestly have a chance to affect real change (even if the 'new' Gorum now acts just like the old one).
Gods can die, two gods died slowing down the Skystone the aboleth pulled down AFAIK. I believe 1st edition AD&D Deities and Demigods had an abstract method of becoming a deity through various trials and being infused with divine essence.
The old D&D Immortals set had rules where characters could adventure as demi-gods.
The question to consider is, how powerful is a god, really? As a greater god, Gorum lacks stats, so there's no good point of reference other than 'a god wins, period'.
So consider this: Gorum is the God of Battle in the Inner Sea Region. But he's also the God of Battle on other worlds in Golarion's solar system, and even far, far beyond that. He may not always be known as Gorum, but wherever you go, if there is a God of Battle, it's probably Gorum. His reach is that all-encompassing. You may of course decide to run with a different interpretation, but that's how I see it, and I believe that's the designer intent.
Some gods like Aroden and Norberger (those who ascended 'locally') are smaller scale - but even they have universe-altering power. Despite Aroden being, really, the God of Humans But Only in One Region of a Single Small Blue Planet, his death sent shockwaves throughout the universe. Pharasma, one of the oldest of the old, has begun to lose her power over prophecy and even if it's not explicitly stated that two facts are related, it is mighty suspicious that they happened at the same time.
At any rate, best of luck to your player!
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The group has to defend the kingdom from an an army of Gorum-worshipping barbarians (a very high-level adventure). At the climax of the conflict, the barbarian warpriests summon Gorum's herald, the First Blade.
They embark on mighty quests to find the location of the summoner, Gorum's mightiest mortal servant (a Warpriest 20 of Gorum, probably with 10 mythic tiers). Using his steel will, he has etched a realm into the Maelstrom, a terrible fortress where he's amassing a veritable army of outsiders to invade the Material Plane and subjugate the kingdom (and possible many others). The PCs might seek help among many sources; celestial would want to overthrow the tyrant, and even the proteans would like to see its realm dissolved into the formless glory of the Maelstrom.
An epic battle follows (feel free to throw gated/enslaved/mind-controlled solars, balors and other bad-asses) but the enemy is defeated. The world is saved, the campaign is pretty much over at this point.
The archpriest, on his last breath, recognizes the dwarf's skill and says Gorum awaits him on the Blade Mountain, the place where the first battle was fought on Golarion and Gorum's holiest place. When he finally dies, his will falters and his entire realm begins to collapse (cue a hastily retreat).
In the campaign's epilogue, while the PCs are all settling down, running the kingdom or starting a family, the dwarf arrives alone at the Blade Mountain. There, he finds Gorum. The two fight. The PC could really be 20th-level with 10 mythic tiers, but he doesn't have to.
Because when the two of them fight, they fight as equals. Gorum almost seems like a mortal (at the very least level 20). When the dwarf defeats him, his helm falls off and a half-orc face looks out. He reveals he's the 125th Gorum; as even the mightiest warrior eventually dies out (to be replaced by someone better) so should the god of war. By the ancient laws established by the first Gorum, the current god of war has to set his divine power aside to face an appropriate challenger and fight with the strength he had in life (so as to prove if he is indeed the mightiest warrior).
He passes on the helm to the dwarf, who dons it and finds himself decked in full plate armor he may never remove and a duty he may never shirk. Only then he understands the peaceful smile on the dying half-orc, finally able to rest.
Have him take the Test of the Starstone in Absolom, then when he becomes a god he can challenge Gorum.
The most awesome, epic character retirement ever.
Oh. My. God.
3. Impressed by dwarf's gumption, offers to make dwarf one of his right-hand men (if player wants to retire character).
See I really like this idea, gives him a pretty respectful position and a good cameo character for other sessions, thanks guys some really awesome ideas have been brought up here
Oh. My. God.
That's high praise, thank you.
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If I have a living campaign world I would let the player know he may never defeat a god in combat as a mortal, and that upon becoming a deity, if I were to ever allow it, his character becomes an NPC. Of course this would be an end of game thing anyway, after the last fight was won, so it may not matter. If he wants to play an actual deity in game then the answer is NO.
And even before that, how does a mere mortal even start his trip in the world with "I want to kill a God"?
You could have him go on a quest for a god killing artifact that levels the playing field and makes a chosen God fight as if they were a mortal. Personally though, I think Rune's idea is WAY better.
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Because when the two of them fight, they fight as equals. Gorum almost seems like a mortal (at the very least level 20). When the dwarf defeats him, his helm falls off and a half-orc face looks out. He reveals he's the 125th Gorum; as even the mightiest warrior eventually dies out (to be replaced by someone better) so should the god of war. By the ancient laws established by the first Gorum, the current god of war has to set his divine power aside to face an appropriate challenger and fight with the strength he had in life (so as to prove if he is indeed the mightiest warrior).
He passes on the helm to the dwarf, who dons it and finds himself decked in full plate armor he may never remove and a duty he may never shirk. Only then he understands the peaceful smile on the dying half-orc, finally able to rest.
This is the best idea I've ever heard. In fact, it's thematically so pure awesome that I think it has changed my own head-canon for this Golarian god.
*slow clap*
Dude, Go mythic Champion path, and take these abilities from universal list:
-Divine source (Whatever his alignment is, then Strength and War domains)
-Sleepless
-Mythic Sustenance
-Longevity
-Others as you see fit
At the end you're pretty much a lesser deity. My half-orc barbarian for Wrath of the Righteous is halfway there, and it's gonna be awesome.
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Actually some gods have stats even in Pathfinder, one example I could name is Achaekek the mantis god. It should be noted that it's a minor deity however.
I'd say to make your player aware of some details:
- first one being that it's an opponent way out of any mortals league, and he'd probably need to become a lesser deity first before he'd even have a chance
- second is that killing a god doesn't necessarily grant you his place, we've had a deity meet an unexpected end here already and somehow his place was taken over by his follower, no killer ever named if there was one in the first place
- third is that he'd need to somehow actually lure the god into meeting him face to face in some kind of physical or otherwise annihilable form. Otherwise well..how do you imagine killing the sky above you?
- fourth..gods have a bad habit of looking into their followers souls, if the barbarian goes off as Gorums follower until he gets to challenge him..he can expect the god to find out about it and make things hard for himI'd let him try, but a barbarian is unlikely to solve any of the above concerns
Based on the data about Gorum, I believe he would welcome the challenge. Gorum is being who loves war, strife and battle above most other things. If that barbarian somehow gained divine power, I could actually see Gorum being willing to stand toe to toe with him, regardless how their abilities stack up to one another. Probably be a very one sided fight, but.... >_> It's just like a follower of Gorum to hunger for the ultimate battle. Assuming no deception involved, I think their pure desire to lay their life on the line in a battle against one of the gods is something worthy of rewarding, even if that reward is their death. Perhaps Gorum could revive them after wiping the floor with them as a herald? These are things I would advise considering if you can find some way to work them into your gaming world.
I also have to say that I like the idea noted above, that there could have been a long line of Gorums. Gorum provides a fair battle, and if defeated, bequeaths all of his godly powers to the barbarian before finally claiming his warrior's death. Or hey, mix both my advice and that concept! They would work well together.
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The group has to defend the kingdom from an an army of Gorum-worshipping barbarians (a very high-level adventure). At the climax of the conflict, the barbarian warpriests summon Gorum's herald, the First Blade.
They embark on mighty quests to find the location of the summoner, Gorum's mightiest mortal servant (a Warpriest 20 of Gorum, probably with 10 mythic tiers). Using his steel will, he has etched a realm into the Maelstrom, a terrible fortress where he's amassing a veritable army of outsiders to invade the Material Plane and subjugate the kingdom (and possible many others). The PCs might seek help among many sources; celestial would want to overthrow the tyrant, and even the proteans would like to see its realm dissolved into the formless glory of the Maelstrom.
An epic battle follows (feel free to throw gated/enslaved/mind-controlled solars, balors and other bad-asses) but the enemy is defeated. The world is saved, the campaign is pretty much over at this point.
The archpriest, on his last breath, recognizes the dwarf's skill and says Gorum awaits him on the Blade Mountain, the place where the first battle was fought on Golarion and Gorum's holiest place. When he finally dies, his will falters and his entire realm begins to collapse (cue a hastily retreat).
In the campaign's epilogue, while the PCs are all settling down, running the kingdom or starting a family, the dwarf arrives alone at the Blade Mountain. There, he finds Gorum. The two fight. The PC could really be 20th-level with 10 mythic tiers, but he doesn't have to.
Because when the two of them fight, they fight as equals. Gorum almost seems like a mortal (at the very least level 20). When the dwarf defeats him, his helm falls off and a half-orc face looks out. He reveals he's the 125th Gorum; as even the mightiest warrior eventually dies out (to be replaced by someone better) so should the god of war. By the ancient laws established by the...
This. This Gave me chills, I'm going to use this if that is alright, because that's amazing.
Yeah, Rune's proposal is awesome.
I'd expect Gorum's response to such a declaration of challenge to be along the lines of "Oh? I'm looking forward to it, mortal. Don't disappoint me."
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Gorum, Our Lord of Throwing Down Just for the Lulz. Yeah. OF COURSE he'd fight him, and OF COURSE he'll do so as a mortal. Feeling someone's armoured fist smash into your face and wondering if something dangerous broke, feeling your sword break through your opponent's armour, seeing battlelust in your enemy's eyes... and not to mention... feel the excitement in the fact that YOU COULD DIE HERE... this is what Gorum IS. And, if he got that far, it is also what the challenger IS.
I'm curious, are there other players in the group? what do THEY want to do?
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The group has to defend the kingdom from an an army of Gorum-worshipping barbarians (a very high-level adventure). At the climax of the conflict, the barbarian warpriests summon Gorum's herald, the First Blade.
They embark on mighty quests to find the location of the summoner, Gorum's mightiest mortal servant (a Warpriest 20 of Gorum, probably with 10 mythic tiers). Using his steel will, he has etched a realm into the Maelstrom, a terrible fortress where he's amassing a veritable army of outsiders to invade the Material Plane and subjugate the kingdom (and possible many others). The PCs might seek help among many sources; celestial would want to overthrow the tyrant, and even the proteans would like to see its realm dissolved into the formless glory of the Maelstrom.
An epic battle follows (feel free to throw gated/enslaved/mind-controlled solars, balors and other bad-asses) but the enemy is defeated. The world is saved, the campaign is pretty much over at this point.
The archpriest, on his last breath, recognizes the dwarf's skill and says Gorum awaits him on the Blade Mountain, the place where the first battle was fought on Golarion and Gorum's holiest place. When he finally dies, his will falters and his entire realm begins to collapse (cue a hastily retreat).
In the campaign's epilogue, while the PCs are all settling down, running the kingdom or starting a family, the dwarf arrives alone at the Blade Mountain. There, he finds Gorum. The two fight. The PC could really be 20th-level with 10 mythic tiers, but he doesn't have to.
Because when the two of them fight, they fight as equals. Gorum almost seems like a mortal (at the very least level 20). When the dwarf defeats him, his helm falls off and a half-orc face looks out. He reveals he's the 125th Gorum; as even the mightiest warrior eventually dies out (to be replaced by someone better) so should the god of war. By the ancient laws established by the...
This is BY FAR one of the most EPIC posts I think I've ever read.
I may make a campaign just to use this!You sir are a Bard for the ages!
gunslingers vs gods, that's my bet.
they can do one thing well... kill big guys...
20th level gunslinger might actually be a challenge for a god, if he has the right gear and feats
gunslingers vs gods, that's my bet.
they can do one thing well... kill big guys...
20th level gunslinger might actually be a challenge for a god, if he has the right gear and feats
20 hd gunslinger vs 300+ hd immortal god... soory i still think god wins...
Raistlin took on a god, and won. But that is because Krynn has wimpy gods. In the 1st edition AD&D hardcover that I used to have it even stated that the gods got uncomfortable when a character was 18th level. Of course, that was several editions ago and the gods have gotten a whole lot more powerful. I wonder if they are still as laughably weak in Krynn. Maybe only a handful of Mythic Tiers between them.
Raistlin defeated all 3 pantheons in Krynn.
Raistlin took on a god, and won. But that is because Krynn has wimpy gods. In the 1st edition AD&D hardcover that I used to have it even stated that the gods got uncomfortable when a character was 18th level. Of course, that was several editions ago and the gods have gotten a whole lot more powerful. I wonder if they are still as laughably weak in Krynn. Maybe only a handful of Mythic Tiers between them.Raistlin defeated all 3 pantheons in Krynn.
And with each god killed the world was wounded and the balance tipped further until as the sole god of Krynn he was a god of ash and blackened stone.
This. This Gave me chills, I'm going to use this if that is alright, because that's amazing.
Of course it's alright, but please let us know how it's working (this forum has a really cool Campaign Journals feature), even if it's only by a few snippets. Same goes for all the other folk that liked that plot seed.