#5-09 The Traitor's Lodge GM Discussion


GM Discussion

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5/5 *

going through prepping this...

Did anyone else notice the PFS says "The Confirmation" on all the headers?

Kyle B can't leave Thursty alone it seems!

Paizo Employee 5/5 Managing Creative Director (Starfinder)

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Sad panda is sad.


Is this the one where the [REDACTED] is trying to trick the [REDACTED] into a false sense of [REDACTED] so that he can use the it'stotallybalancedguys [REDACTED]?

5/5 *

First, Thursty... This scenario is awesome. Reminds me of one of my all-time recent favorites, Golemworks Incident. Can't wait to run this next week.

Second, Devs, did the issue with the Globster's damage in the bestiary ever get resolved? I think it came to light in the discussion of Veteran's Vault that either the damage or the STR score of the Globster was fubar. Any update?

And finally, everyone else, I uploaded the statblocks needed into the shared folder.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

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Carlos Robledo wrote:

First, Thursty... This scenario is awesome. Reminds me of one of my all-time recent favorites, Golemworks Incident. Can't wait to run this next week.

Second, Devs, did the issue with the Globster's damage in the bestiary ever get resolved? I think it came to light in the discussion of Veteran's Vault that either the damage or the STR score of the Globster was fubar. Any update?

And finally, everyone else, I uploaded the statblocks needed into the shared folder.

As I recall, the Strength score for the globster never got updated to the intended value of 22, which should make all of the other modifiers check out.

5/5 *

Perfect. I'll update my statblocks to reflect.

Dark Archive 4/5

What is the depth of the water in B4 and B5? I don't see it anywhere in the scenario and wondered if both rooms were completely submerged or if there was some walking ability in B4.

Sovereign Court 4/5

alabamasax wrote:
What is the depth of the water in B4 and B5? I don't see it anywhere in the scenario and wondered if both rooms were completely submerged or if there was some walking ability in B4.

The black-text for B4 says that this portion is flooded beneath 8 feet of water. As there is a door built there and most of a room behind with no mention of steps, I would assume B5 is also 8 feet deep.

Dark Archive 4/5

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Just found it as well.
On a side note,

Spoiler:
my group managed to escape the dungeon with four evidence points, thus bypassing the maze. They took Valais back to the lodge getting their last two evidence points succeeding on the mission. My group only ended up fighting the imps in B10. I think they found the easiest way possible to completely succeed at this scenario.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Played it today, prepping it now.

Had a blast with this, except for one part that had me confused as a player and has me very worried as a GM.

paperweight troubles:

So when I played it (6-7), we accidentally ended up entering the B10 study first. Plenty of the dungeon was totally unexplored when the demon statue spoke to us. Suddenly all manner of creepy things occurred, signalling a unholy interest in the area. All cues prompted 'badass approaching'. We were scanning with detect magic each step and found no sensor.

There is no scrying trap or sensor connected to the statue, it is simply 'enter 10ft, summon glabrezu.'

We ran into area B9 and with two brave paladins in the party, assumed a defensive perimeter, ready for something to walk through the larval passage. The team was sitting with weapons ready. We had a mission to complete! We weren't going to run!

"At this point, the PCs are no longer able to explore area B at their leisure."

Our GM was admittedly quite kind to us and did not have a CR13 Glabrezu dimensionally assault us. If it had appeared, I am sure it would have torn our party apart, double CR creatures that can teleport at will in confined dungeons (with one entrance/exit) can do that without much of a fuss. We explored the rest of the dungeon with occasional reminders of darkening air, screeching rats, and a sense of impending doom. But the impending doom factor became a big question mark for the party.

This is the second PFS scenario that has the potential for a Glabrezu encounter a party that is far too low level to deal with it. I am all for a game world where heroes encounter monsters that they must run from, but how do you make a tactical choice to run from a creature that is double CR that has teleport at will? I really don't want to punish my players for being brave/curious heroes and holding their ground, especially when there is no way around the statue itself.

It would be nice if the impending demon attack was reduced to a Shadow Demon for low tier. Having a no-detection glabrezu summoning statue sitting on top of a mission critical desk is a bit too rough imho for 3-4.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Solution to the paperweight troubles:

So I decided I had to nut out a way to make the paperweight trouble a bit more reasonable for PCs. Knocked this together for 6-7.

DEMON SENSE STATUE
Type magic; Perception DC 31; Disable Device DC 31 (CR 7 trap DC)
EFFECTS
Trigger location (10 feet); Reset Automatic (timed interval 3 hours)
Effect spell effect (alarm [mental alarm] and magic mouth centered upon statue location)

If the PCs are foolish enough to trigger the Demon Sense Statue, the magic mouth spell grants the message.
The PCs then have 10 rounds to act before a Glabrezu greater teleports into area B10, adjacent to the statue. If the PCs are nowhere to be seen when it arrives, it immediately begins moving at half speed through the entire dungeon, moving slowly to accommodate its enormous size through the laboratory. In Abyssal, it loudly goads the PCs, stating phrases such as:

"Don't be shy, pretty mortal. I will grant you an eternity of adventures!"
"Come now Thurl. I have such gifts to show you this visit. I promise you will be... delighted."
"I taste the fear of strangers, while Thurl is nowhere to be seen. This power needs a master, your wish is my command."

Dark Archive 4/5

Still curious on one thing.

Spoiler:
So if my team only has four evidence points when they go to leace the dungeon, the minotaurdoes not recreare the maze nor attack, correct? This is what I had to do last night leaving my party with only one fight in the entire scenario.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

That's correct. As long as no one is Grand Lodge, it is the easiest way to handle the scenario.

Dark Archive 5/5

ran this scenario tonight...

the gunslingers sacrificed himself to save the party from the BBEG ....

Paizo Employee 5/5 Managing Creative Director (Starfinder)

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wellsmv wrote:

ran this scenario tonight...

the gunslingers sacrificed himself to save the party from the BBEG ....

Glad I could help control the gunslinger population... :D

Sovereign Court 4/5

Thurston Hillman wrote:
wellsmv wrote:

ran this scenario tonight...

the gunslingers sacrificed himself to save the party from the BBEG ....

Glad I could help control the gunslinger population... :D

Sadly, where one falls two more spring up in their place...

Liberty's Edge 2/5 *

I enjoyed running this one a lot.

We had a fun morality discussion over the killing of the Larval 'souls'. Whether it would be killing someone who could be redeemed, whether it was an thoroughly evil soul already just waiting to be upgraded to demon/devil hood.

I had a lot of fun with the Chalk on the wall.

The Glabrezu was very interesting. Having had played the other scenario Andrei mentioned previously, I had it first appear as the last of the party were exiting into the larval passageway. In fact the last character was the only one who saw the Glabrezu.. after which he told everyone else.

Sadly metagaming came into it with several players saying 'No way, they wouldnt put us up against one of those at this level'. I then went to town with the larval containers breaking as the group raced up the passageways into the fight with the recently released freaks. Meanwhile I had fun with the Glabrezu beaming around wondering (loudly) where is contact was.

Then in one of his last appearances I had said Glabrezu appear as a Gnome. A Gnome who was walking on the water up the stairs whilst the combat was going on and people were stuck in the passageway awaiting a turn. In fact he simply stopped behind the last party member and smiled... freaking everyone at the back out. They quickly cut down the baddies and went upstairs for that confrontation.

As they left the entire complex they had an image of a small gnome smiling at them as he peeked out of the stairwell directly at them.

I loved it.

Grand Lodge 4/5

That sounds awesome Matt, but what is weird is that the scenario never explicitly states that the REDACTED is Koth Vaul. It is heavily implied. Personally, I'd like to steer clear of such ambiguity so that GMs can have some fun with Koth Vaul's continued villainy.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

After playing this and finding out exactly what was coming, I really wanted to find out it was him. Sadly, I was disappointed.

Liberty's Edge 2/5 *

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I never meant for it to be Koth Vaul. I just liked the idea of my Glabrezu from now on taking the form of Gnomes. All of them.

After all my Barbarian now believes that all Gnomes have an aternate huge pincer equipped form. Hes just that smar....

Silver Crusade 2/5

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At first Valais was a little scary, but the paladin said she wasn't evil. I thought back to what my friend Thomas told me about racism and judging people by appearances, and so I decided I'd give her the benefit of the doubt. Turns out she's had a really rough life, but I think she's managed to stay really sweet, all things considered. She just needs a friend! So I decided I'm going to take care of her.

I knew she'd get some looks from people when we brought her back out into the world, and I knew that would hurt her. Plus, Thomas says that if enough people treat you like you're already a monster, it makes it really hard not to become one, and I didn't want that to happen to my friend. So I walked next to her, in my best dress, and made it very clear to everyone that she was with me. I had to glare at a few people, but overall I think it went okay.

The healers at the Grand Lodge said it would take a while for her to recover from everything she's been through, so I'm letting her crash at my place for as long as she needs. I introduced my new roomie to Thomas, and he's totally sympathetic to her situation. He's even offered to help with the restorative magic at his own expense!

Someday, when she's feeling better and is a little more at peace, I'll help her find a new job and get back on her feet. I guess that means she'll eventually move out on her own; I'll be sad to have her leave, but it would probably be best for her and that's what's important to me.

But I'm getting ahead of myself! Right now, what matters is helping her get better. She's looking healthier each day, and she's really starting to brighten up a bit. She has such a beautiful laugh! She has some hard days sometimes, especially when people are mean to her when we go out. But it's getting better! Most of her face looks normal now, and the rest can be mostly hidden by her clothes. She's still a little scared to go out by herself, I can still see her confidence growing day by day.

I know she'll get all better someday. :)

Liberty's Edge 3/5

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Ran this last night and had my group miss the minotaur for lack of evidence points as well. They went East from B1 and never doubled back for B2 or B3, and no one bothered read or interact with the night hag. So they lost out of 700 gp (high subtier) and avoided a unique but complicated combat with a map subsystem. Some players saw that as a plus, some as a minus. No Grand Lodge PCs so no one felt cheated out of a boon by having to leave rooms unexplored in their flight.

That aside, they all liked the atmosphere of the adventure, puzzling out the mysteries, and interacting with Valais. Everyone is looking forward to finding out more of Thurl's plot.

5/5 ** RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

When running this one, you may want to tell your players that assuming that every encounter is level-appropriate could lead them into folly...

In the final chamber, a party with a few ranks in Knowledge (planes) should realize that they face more than they can chew ("So what would you like to know about this CR 13 demon?"), but a less-gifted group (or players who haven't faced such a beast before) may just stick around to confront the creature.

For parties that can't decide whether to stay and fight, really pile on the supernatural manifestations accompanying the demon's approach. When the vermin flees, the canned spirits scream and cower, the maps' ink starts to run, glowing lines begin to appear on the walls and floor, and they begin to hear vague abyssal chanting, just maybe the indecisive party may make up their mind.

Some players may also benefit from a subtle reminder that there's a city filled with demon-fighting crusaders just 80 feet above them...

Sovereign Court 4/5

I'm running a PbP of this and have grown slightly concerned here.

Concern:
My players are going through the dungeon but aren't actually investigating anything. They do Perception checks the whole way, but don't really dig into anything. As such, they are about to leave the hallway of larvae and have a single 1 evidence point.

I'm trying to not come right out and say "Do you want to investigate item x or read books f thru j?", though I am dropping hints that those are the points of interest.

Should I be blunt about what needs to be investigated?
Should I be like some video games and say "Are you ready to enter this room? If you continue, you may not be able to go back and check on things."
Should I just continue letting them do just Perception and end up failing the scenario? (If so, what do they get on their Chronicle? 1 exp, 0 fame, 0 gold? Or 1 exp, 0 fame, full gold minus objectives not completed?)

Help?

Grand Lodge 4/5

You need to remind your players that simply spamming their Perception skill is not actually investigating. They need to give you directions about what their characters are actually doing.

Sovereign Court 4/5

That's the problem. They are saying what they are actually doing. Looking at the glowing circle or the writing or the spines and titles of the books. No actual investigation is happening.

I think I may end up going with a "Now passing the point of no return." Plus a quick summary of what they have found. A very short list...
Unless someone has a better suggestion for me? I'm entirely all ears!

I'm also trying to keep Valais from leading the way or holding their hand. But if push comes to shove, I will use her as a mouthpiece.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You should drop hints about actually understanding what is written or finding relevant documents taking more time than six seconds.

Liberty's Edge 3/5

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Yeah, when they say they look at the titles, you can say "A few titles give you a hint that this library may contain terrible secrets, if you take the time to read it thoroughly."

Dark Archive 2/5

I am trying to come up with a list of Scenarios and Specials that Thurl is in before running this. The only two I can think of is Sark. Prophecy & Seige of the Diamond City. Does anyone know of anymore?

Scarab Sages 5/5

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I love this scenario. It is my new favorite.

There is a certain amount of pushing that the GM needs to make this scenario successful and not a TPK.

I found it necessary to at least remind the PCs that you are here to gather evidence of Thurl's betrayal by the time they get to the abyssal library. My first table said "we'll come back later" the next decided that "they would gather all the books and bring with". (very clever)

GMs also should heavily emphasize the chalk in the summoning circle room. Since it is only breafly mentioned in the box texts, players don't even realize they can write on the wall. My players never put two-and-two together.

I am concerned about how I will play up the seriousness of the glabrezu to inexperienced players. I am curious how other GMs are emphasizing the seriousness. I ran this twice with very experienced players and they all ran like scared little school girls.

For players that I knew played a certain scenario, I too included a quick glimpse of a cackling gnome. That is a freaking awesome idea from Matthew Pittard. I REALLY hope it is Koth Vaul.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Benjamin F. wrote:
I am trying to come up with a list of Scenarios and Specials that Thurl is in before running this. The only two I can think of is Sark. Prophecy & Seige of the Diamond City. Does anyone know of anymore?

those are the only ones I am aware of

Sovereign Court 4/5

Kristen Gipson wrote:
I am concerned about how I will play up the seriousness of the glabrezu to inexperienced players. I am curious how other GMs are emphasizing the seriousness. I ran this twice with very experienced players and they all ran like scared little school girls.

I would think perhaps you bring a huge glabrezu miniature to set on the table if they stick around. Emphasize how easily it busts through the stonework between the office and the lower level of the cauldron room. Have him toss the bubbling liquid aside as if it were a tiny Tupperware bowl, the boiling liquid sizzling at its skin with no effect.

Also, if they happen to talk to Aslynn, describe the writing that appears in the office as shaky. Because if it's enough to freak out Aslynn, it may stand to reason that the PCs should be afraid as well.

And, of course, have Valais bolt as soon as she is able. PC's tend to follow suit when it comes to running.

Push comes to shove, have a blue police box appear and a man peek out saying the classic three-letter-word. "RUN!"

Sorry, may have gone a bit far with that last one. Disregard.

Grand Lodge 4/5

I ran this last weekend. There was a Dwarven Cleric of Torag. Valais started freaking out and asking the PCs why they couldn't feel 'it' looking at them. They rolled perception checks and realised the Dwarf's holy symbol was bent perfectly upside down, as if gravity had been reversed for holy symbols only. By the time a swarm of rats ran screeching in the opposite direction of the desk, the PCs were high-tailing it as well. They kept firing the Sleet Storm wand behind them, to slow down whatever was following behind.

I tried to post a glowing review last night, but the site ate it. Anyone know what's happening with the review system?

Scarab Sages 5/5

Sior wrote:
Kristen Gipson wrote:
I am concerned about how I will play up the seriousness of the glabrezu to inexperienced players. I am curious how other GMs are emphasizing the seriousness. I ran this twice with very experienced players and they all ran like scared little school girls.

I would think perhaps you bring a huge glabrezu miniature to set on the table if they stick around. Emphasize how easily it busts through the stonework between the office and the lower level of the cauldron room. Have him toss the bubbling liquid aside as if it were a tiny Tupperware bowl, the boiling liquid sizzling at its skin with no effect.

Also, if they happen to talk to Aslynn, describe the writing that appears in the office as shaky. Because if it's enough to freak out Aslynn, it may stand to reason that the PCs should be afraid as well.

And, of course, have Valais bolt as soon as she is able. PC's tend to follow suit when it comes to running.

Push comes to shove, have a blue police box appear and a man peek out saying the classic three-letter-word. "RUN!"

Sorry, may have gone a bit far with that last one. Disregard.

Those are some good ideas. I have already been doing some. I pull out the the huge glabrezu mini when I describe the statue and state to the players that it looks exactly like that.

Andrei Buters wrote:
I ran this last weekend. There was a Dwarven Cleric of Torag. Valais started freaking out and asking the PCs why they couldn't feel 'it' looking at them. They rolled perception checks and realised the Dwarf's holy symbol was bent perfectly upside down, as if gravity had been reversed for holy symbols only. By the time a swarm of rats ran screeching in the opposite direction of the desk, the PCs were high-tailing it as well.

Ooooh. That's a good idea with the holy symbol. I also make the Valais freak out and run right after the speech and make the bugs flee.

I just wasn't sure that is enough to make a new player who isnt aware of what a glabrezu is run. Many players are still under the impression that to "win" the scenario does not include running away.

1/5

queue up the opening of the Balrog scene in lord of the rings... that will make the folks run.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Managing Creative Director (Starfinder)

Andrei Buters wrote:


I tried to post a glowing review last night, but the site ate it. Anyone know what's happening with the review system?

Well, when the system is working, I sure hope you do! :D

And thanks Kristen for the glowing review and place in your favorites. It makes me all warm and fuzzy... and ready to murder more PCs! Bwah ha ha, buk buk buk.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I love the holy symbol idea. Have to remember that for next time.

Kristen Gipson wrote:
For players that I knew played a certain scenario, I too included a quick glimpse of a cackling gnome. That is a freaking awesome idea from Matthew Pittard. I REALLY hope it is Koth Vaul.

The only reason I didn't do that was because I wasn't sure it WAS him.

I want it to be him. So bad.

4/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Kristen Gipson wrote:
I love this scenario. It is my new favorite.

Told ya I'd trade you anything for one of those slots! ;-)

Like Kristen, I am a big fan of this scenario. It's absolutely going to be a favorite of mine for some time to come. Valais may be one of the best NPCs ever: a hugely interesting character, while at the same time very sympathetic. My first time running this I had two PCs at my table with whom I was familiar; by playing up what I knew about those PCs I was able to draw them into a bond with Valais that made both — one a very CN rogue, the other a decidedly NG ranger — determined they simply couldn't leave her behind, no matter what.

Thursty, speaking only for myself, I want more scenarios like this. Pretty please, with sugar on top.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Kristen Gipson wrote:
For players that I knew played a certain scenario, I too included a quick glimpse of a cackling gnome. That is a freaking awesome idea from Matthew Pittard. I REALLY hope it is Koth Vaul.

The only reason I didn't do that was because I wasn't sure it WAS him.

Honestly, I think i'll continue to do this, even if it is not him. The looks on players' faces was priceless.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Chris Rathunde wrote:


Thursty, speaking only for myself, I want more scenarios like this. Pretty please, with sugar on top.

And whip cream. Don't forget the whip cream! It might just make the differnce

Sovereign Court 4/5

Kristen Gipson wrote:
Chris Rathunde wrote:


Thursty, speaking only for myself, I want more scenarios like this. Pretty please, with sugar on top.
And whip cream. Don't forget the whip cream! It might just make the differnce

And sprinkles and chocolate syrup all floated on an imperial pint of stout?

Shadow Lodge 3/5

alabamasax wrote:

Still curious on one thing.

** spoiler omitted **

If they do that though, it's mission failure? 4 isn't enough. Not sure if the scenario has been updated since you saw this to correct it.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As long as they convince Valais to return to Starrise Spire they can get the two extra points needed to pass the primary mission.

Liberty's Edge 2/5 *

Kristen: I like some connection between scenarios. I did have at least 2 players from the other scenario playing this one, so I knew id get at least a response out of them. I also had good points of surprise on faces when I placed the Glabrezu on the board.

Silver Crusade 2/5

I found the need to sit and examine extensive writings in detail before investigating the area thoroughly to see if there is danger very disconcerting. Until an area is secure enough to read without everyone on guard it is very dangerous. Cops don't search a house for evidence until they make sure that there aren't bad guys around to take pot shots.

Kristen Gipson wrote:
I found it necessary to at least remind the PCs that you are here to gather evidence of Thurl's betrayal by the time they get to the abyssal library. My first table said "we'll come back later" the next decided that "they would gather all the books and bring with". (very clever)

We also said we wanted to grab a big chunk of books to read later in safety, but were not allowed to do so. We didn't thoroughly check all rooms and when we finally found a place that looked like the end, and a great place to gather evidence, the timer to flee started. First and only scenario that I have failed the primary mission.

Now knowing, in a -very- metagame fashion that we have to check everything in detail on the way in, I can succeed in this kind of scenario. I'm not sure I want to ever run this one.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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Matthew Pittard wrote:
Kristen: I like some connection between scenarios. I did have at least 2 players from the other scenario playing this one, so I knew id get at least a response out of them. I also had good points of surprise on faces when I placed the Glabrezu on the board.

I too love connection between scenarios and I felt that it has tons. Everytime I run it I find a new connection that I did not notice before.

At my first table, everyone had played siege and kalkamedes, so when i brought out a glabrezu mini they freaked out. I felt the extra need to have one of the PCs catch a glimpse of a gnome as they were running away, because one player has encountered 2 scenarios where a bad guy was disguised as a gnome (glabrezu and wolf-in-sheeps-clothing). So her characters tend to think that a gnome is never a gnome. It's just something far worse that is disguised. So I had to play it up.

Scarab Sages 5/5

DesolateHarmony wrote:


We also said we wanted to grab a big chunk of books to read later in safety, but were not allowed to do so.

They had bags of holding. That was the only reason they were allowed to take them with them. I even asked how they were gonna transport them.

So I was fine with them making the appropriate Know checks after the scenario so they could acquire the appropriate amount of points to succeed.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Two of my party got the disease and realized what it would be (especially that it did con damage), which made them hurry. Thus they also skipped the library when I told them it would take a significant amount of time to read through the books. They also didn't go for a swim.

This resulted in 4 points -> no minotaur attack. And then bringing Valais with them to Starrise Spire and getting the two points for that, resulting in a mission success.

But they did have fun, and the maze encounter was already hurting my brain, so I'm kinda glad they didn't have to do it.

Some things I did wonder about while prepping: How does one recognise the monsters in the lab? They have unique appearances, so should the knowledge DCs be of the higher 15+CR type?
And when in the flooded rooms, is the second one full of water to the ceiling? Or is it just the 8 feet of the first one? And are the tracks mentioned in the second one where? After that 4000ft underwater swim? Thry cannot really be in the room, as it only has water, no mud to leave the tracks on. (It's also difficult to imagine them opening the door when there's 8 feet of water on both sides without any problems, but maybe that's just me).

Shadow Lodge 3/5

I have to ask - is that the intent of the scenario to allow the party a chance to avoid the maze if they leave with an "in-between" amount of evidence points?

I feel like it's intended that once the party has done their bit in the basement and come up with 4 evidence points that that's actually meant to be the magic number, and that this was an oversight.

Isn't the idea that Karsos awakens when he realises "too much meddling" has gone on? Is it really possible that the Pathfinders are allowed to "meddle just enough" to escape his notice? Doesn't seem right.

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