A Player in one of my current campaigns wants to go a synthesis summoner. I told him I would have to get back to him on it because I've heard alot of bad things about the archtype. But neither me nor him understand why the archtype is banned and what makes it so "over-powered". So I want to go to the forums first and ask if there are any concrete reasons why I should -not- let him play a synthesis summoner or things I should disallow if i am going to let him become one.
Thanks in Advance For All The Help! ^_^
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My understanding is that it's because the eidolon (when fused with the summoner) provides the physical stats, and the summoner the mental ones. So you can have a summoner with as little as possible in the physical stats, while the eidolon (which it is fused with) picking up the slack.
"While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points."
It's widely considered a "bad" archetype because it allows you to completely disregard half of your stats, which a spellcaster cant normaly do.
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Summoners in general are problems as many players and DMs do not fully understand how eidolons and evolutions work. Synthesist exacerbates those issues by allowing players to really go overboard.
Unless you are rock solid on understanding summoners I suggest you don't allow it. Otherwise you may be back her in a couple months posting "Help, I can't challenge my synthesist player".
One major issue that comes up is that the summoner will dump his physical stats and the eidolon would dump mental stats. Then, when they synthesize, they have something akin to a 32-point buy stat array since it uses the eidolon's physical and summoner's mental stats together.
The summoner gets a free layer of hitpoints from the eidolon and also uses the eidolon's AC (including its Natural Armor Bonus). It becomes that much harder to actually kill the summoner since it is one target with, effectively, double the hit points.
The summoner can also take combat feats that he will use when in the combined form, thus providing a means to marry eidolon evolutions with interesting combat feats, which can get quite messy for the enemies.
Overall, if the player is keen on optimization or min/maxing, this class can be a pile of pain for the GM. If the player isn't especially good at doing any of that, it will still be naturally stronger than any other character the player could make because of inherent design aspects (like the shared stats).
This is based on what I've read on the boards. I have actually banned the entire class, not just the archetype, in my games because I have a few players who love to min/max and could do bad things even with a vanilla summoner.
Synthesist isn't overpowered, although if you do dump physical stats completely it can be a bit cheesy (that would be one of those things to disallow/watch out for). It's banned because the rules for it don't always work out perfectly and require some GM judgement calls, and organized play wants to avoid that.
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So! This comes up quite often.
There are a number of issues:
The biggest loss for the synthesist is the extra set of actions but the above tend to make up for that for all but the most hardcore optimizers.
it's generally banned because some players can't handle a character having the option to be good at both stats without cheesing the hell out.
"oh, i can replace my physical stats with my eidolons--BETTER DUMP THEM TO OBLIVION, because that's totally what was intended for this", because summoners are TOTALLY wearing their eidolons at all times, and its not like they can be banished, dismissed, etc. (they can)
and the fact that not everyone would be happy with the sight of some demon-looking mosntersguy walking into town, or him surprising them by going all HEN SHIN if he needs to do some heavy lifting.
Not all builds and all players will be a problem with a synthesis summoner.
If your player is a cherry picking optimizer and the rest of the party is not, he is likely to out shine them.
If the whole party is cherry picking optimizers then it might not be that noticeable.
I would suggest asking him to propose a build and progression plan, then evaluate that specific build vs. the rest of the party. If it is not that far out in left field, allow it. If you're not sure bring the details here and ask for some more advice.
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Summoners in general are problematic because they are super easy to optimize. In most cases, unless you put tremendous effort into choosing your options, every class give you something you might not 'want' or at least doesnt directly translate to power. Classes like the druid (the closest analogue to the summoner in my view) gets things like wild empathy, or their animal companion gets scent or something of the sort. That is part of the 'stuff' they get. The summoner doesnt get more 'stuff' then the more powerful classes. But what he does have is much easier control over what that stuff is, in particular the eidolon (his main class feature) is completely customizable. But also his spells can be organized in the fashion that helps him do whatever he is doing, and he can choose useful things to summon should he use his spell like abilities.
The options to make the eidolon (and the summoner) more powerful(particularly in combat) are obvious, easy to choose, and dont really require any trade offs. So what you end up with is essentially a hyper optimized character without any actual effort put into optimization. If your group normally has the kinds of players that dive through every source book, choosing the 'perfect' options, the summoner isnt a problem. But most groups dont spend that much time on optimization, and a player playing a summoner will be much more optimized then a character created with the same amount of effort by the same player.
This is where the problem lies, in any system as robust as pathfinder where not all options are created equal, the more flexible your selection of options, the more easily you can only select the 'best' options. A druid might take several archetypes, the 'best' animal companion, feats, etc and be as powerful as a typical summoner, but the choices arent as easy or as obvious.
The synthesist exhaserbates this problem by further encouraging 'min-maxing' by replacing physical stats of the summoner, something that pathfinder originally removed (deliberately) from polymorph. Granted there is a trade off for this benefit (the action economy of having 2 characters which is significant) but the simple fact that it breaks one of the things pathfinder changed about the game to balance it will always cause more trouble then its worth.
In the end if you want a summoner and specifically a synthesist to be able to play at anything but the most optimized minmaxed characters, the player would have to deliberately NOT optimize it when creating the character, taking flavorful but not overtly powerful options, like scent, or skilled evolutions for the eidolon.
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A Player in one of my current campaigns wants to go a synthesis summoner. I told him I would have to get back to him on it because I've heard alot of bad things about the archtype. But neither me nor him understand why the archtype is banned and what makes it so "over-powered". So I want to go to the forums first and ask if there are any concrete reasons why I should -not- let him play a synthesis summoner or things I should disallow if i am going to let him become one.
Thanks in Advance For All The Help! ^_^
In actual play, the synthesis summoner gives up half their actions to be more tanky. Plus stat dumping.
This is only really an issue though if you start at level 1. We're level 7 now and our summoner is becoming less and less OP.
Because they gave GMs a headache and made even the dullest Fighter player cry.
Alright thanks guys ^_^
Our group doesnt really min/max at all. We are all way to busy to read too much past the first couple books of pathfinder(and even then not all of that). Ill tell him what you guys told me here and just ask him to make it not all combat oriented. Ill look over it like you said and since it seems to fall off i dont have to worry about anything surprising me later on(what i was worried about). We are starting at level5 so i guess it wont be too much of a problem :)
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As far as DPR goes, they don't outpace a dedicated fighter or barbarian and their HP is roughly equivalent to that of a barbarian. That's the net effect of the synthesist. The casting is very limited. They do get SOME gems earlyish but nothing game breaking. Being capped at level 6 spells, it's also hard to get high save DCs so they make mediocre blasters or battlefield control.
Really, honestly, they look cool and seem OP because they're esoteric to the vast majority of players and that stigma makes people resistant to actually looking at the class for what it is. But, they're not bad. They're no more complex than playing a rogue that has several tricks. There is built in balance.
If you're playing a "broken" build then you likely built it wrong. You can't take assumptions with the evolutions. You have to actually read them as they have little tweaks here and there to keep them balanced so you can't just read titles and apply normal monster rules to them.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It is worth reading some of the FAQ and revision / errata about the archetype. For example, as the class is written, there's no way to heal the eidolon; the revised rules are in the FAQ. (Also, the FAQ introduces severe limitations on spellcasting, unless the synthecist chooses the bipedal eidolon form or invests in extra limbs.)
I've read GM logs about issues with synthesists. Generally, it's difficult to challenge them due to their lack of vulernabilties. They can get double a normal person's hitpoints, have good saves, do not suffer from MAD, gets free armor, and receives free bonuses to Dex/Str. Special abilties can make them invulnerable to certain encounters, such as the Unnatural Aura abilities. The Eidolon also cannot be targeted and the summoner can transfer his hitpoints to the Eidolon's to prevent himself from losing all these benefits.
On top of it, they can be better fighters than martial classes, yet can get abilities, like flight and dimension door, at levels inaccessible to wizards. So, synthesist summoners can get abilities faster than comparable classes while having distinctly fewer weaknesses.
The eidolon can be dismissed. So, yes, it can be targeted. The HP works out to barbarian average assuming a 16 or 18 con, I forget which. SKR did the breakdown in the one summoner thread to rule them all.
Synthesists can get nearly unhittable AC with large damage and good saves very easily, while only being dependent on one stat(charisma) and being full casters. They have very few weaknesses.
At low low levels this is true. They fall off at later levels.
Min/max-ing, "dumping" stats, etc. generally ruin the RP in an RPG, but good RP/GMing can solve it. How?
Find ways to banish the eidolon, or present situations where a giant monster will not be acceptable/appropriate. Townsfolk aren't much more likely to accept a synthesist monster amongst them than a necromancer with an undead horde. Summoning the eidolon takes a full minute, remember, so find ways to challenge the synthesist himself and not the eidolon.
Teach these min/max-ing stat-dumpers the error of their ways!
Min/max-ing, "dumping" stats, etc. generally ruin the RP in an RPG...
I pretty much disagree with this, but that is a totally separate topic.
Hmm.
This gave me an idea.
I'm going to spend some of my spare time hombrewing a "synthesist" type that simply is the eldodion.
The synthesist is very easy to make better than the martials unless the latter spend every resourse on optimisation. And they are casters almost as powerfull as the full casters. The caster thing is amplyfied by the fact that they can have a few extra arms to hold metamagic rods and that they get spells at lowe levels than other casters allowing metamagic rods to be cheaper. On top of that they can get, super skill bonuses on a few skills, pounce, reach and amazing saves.
I love the idea but it takes work to make a synthesist that wont make the others question why they ditent go that way.
A party of all synthesists or a synthesist without casting pehaps...
And if some one tell you that they are vulnerable banishment and all is therefore good look at the level of that Spell and see if you can find them save or lose spells befor that level that most others will be more vulnerable to.
An the action economy? Yes they only have the same action as almost every other class(exept for the arms thing and the meta rods)
If you end up allowing him i will like to hear how it goes as i banned after looking it over and running a few test builds.
Min/max-ing, "dumping" stats, etc. generally ruin the RP in an RPG, but good RP/GMing can solve it. How?
Find ways to banish the eidolon, or present situations where a giant monster will not be acceptable/appropriate. Townsfolk aren't much more likely to accept a synthesist monster amongst them than a necromancer with an undead horde. Summoning the eidolon takes a full minute, remember, so find ways to challenge the synthesist himself and not the eidolon.
Teach these min/max-ing stat-dumpers the error of their ways!
Zero-Rule Fallacy. Just because you can fix something doesn't mean it's not broken to begin with. Though, it is true that powerful options are perfectly fine in the hands of players you completely trust not to abuse them.
Hmm.
This give me an idea.
I'm going to spend some of my spare time hombrewing a "synthesist" type that simply is the eldodion.
I was honestly disappointed to hear that the advanced class guide won't have an alternate summoner class to this effect. It could be a class where you become the eidolon. To prevent Druidzilla, the transformation uses your own ability scores.
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I'll put it together, and tell you when it's complete, if you like,
I'll put it together, and tell you when it's complete, if you like,
I don't quite understand your class...
Anyway, this isn't quite like what i have in mind.
Cool concept, though.
At low low levels this is true. They fall off at later levels.Synthesists can get nearly unhittable AC with large damage and good saves very easily, while only being dependent on one stat(charisma) and being full casters. They have very few weaknesses.
Not really. I'm pretty sure my synthesist here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pbrv?Beastmass-A-challenge-to-Master-MinMaxer s) is the only character that doesn't rely on winning initiative or a big save-or-die spell to kill every big monster in the game without resting. Hell, he doesn't even need to buff.
While synthesists never acquire the unparalleled late-game utility of pure casters (due to summoners' somewhat limited spell list), they still are leaps and bounds better than any melee class, while being way more survivable than any spellcaster.
They basically have no weaknesses, early or late game.
-Cross
Oh man, yeah that's a huge problem. I'll go get my druid buddy to sort out this issue.
...
...
Just came back, my druid buddy doesn't understand this weaknesses concept you are talking about.
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Oh man stat dumping.
You know it's not the great. We're talking +2 to cha, more skill points, and a higher will save in exchange for HALF THE SUMMONERS ACTIONS!. Thankfully the sythesist gets some tanky-ness, or else this archetype would be complete garbage.
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People think everything is overpowered. It doesn't matter what it is, they will claim everything is broken until you're just sitting there listening to the dm read out a poorly written novel for 3 hours.
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People think everything is overpowered. It doesn't matter what it is, they will claim everything is broken until you're just sitting there listening to the dm read out a poorly written novel for 3 hours.
Except rogues. No-one thinks rogues are OP.
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People think everything is overpowered. It doesn't matter what it is, they will claim everything is broken until you're just sitting there listening to the dm read out a poorly written novel for 3 hours.Except rogues. No-one thinks rogues are OP.
I've seen some people nerf sneak attack because they thought it was OP, no joke. It was just saaad.
I've seen some people nerf sneak attack because they thought it was OP, no joke. It was just saaad.People think everything is overpowered. It doesn't matter what it is, they will claim everything is broken until you're just sitting there listening to the dm read out a poorly written novel for 3 hours.Except rogues. No-one thinks rogues are OP.
To be fair, I'm nerfing sneak attack in my rewrite of the close because I think it is an awful core mechanic.
People think everything is overpowered. It doesn't matter what it is, they will claim everything is broken until you're just sitting there listening to the dm read out a poorly written novel for 3 hours.
I think most of this comes from what is available. If you're playing with just the core rules, there is a very limited set of things that you can do as a character. When you start adding in a bunch of extra material, a character that you create can suddenly do a bunch of new things that core characters cannot.
Some people consider this overpowered. So even though I have no idea what a synthesis summoner is, I can see what people are reporting in this thread and it sounds beyond what any core character can do, so I see why people think it is overpowered.
People think everything is overpowered. It doesn't matter what it is, they will claim everything is broken until you're just sitting there listening to the dm read out a poorly written novel for 3 hours.I think most of this comes from what is available. If you're playing with just the core rules, there is a very limited set of things that you can do as a character. When you start adding in a bunch of extra material, a character that you create can suddenly do a bunch of new things that core characters cannot.
Some people consider this overpowered. So even though I have no idea what a synthesis summoner is, I can see what people are reporting in this thread and it sounds beyond what any core character can do, so I see why people think it is overpowered.
All I'll say is that it's far less powerful than a normal summoner, and normal summoners aren't going to get spells that can summon rocks the size of dragons above enemy's heads.
It is worth reading some of the FAQ and revision / errata about the archetype. For example, as the class is written, there's no way to heal the eidolon; the revised rules are in the FAQ. (Also, the FAQ introduces severe limitations on spellcasting, unless the synthecist chooses the bipedal eidolon form or invests in extra limbs.)
what about this spell?
Rejuvenate Eidolon, Lesser
School conjuration (healing); Level summoner 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a drop of your blood)
Range touch
Target eidolon touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
By laying your hand upon an eidolon, you cause its wounds to close and its form to solidify. This spell cures 1d10 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5).
It is worth reading some of the FAQ and revision / errata about the archetype. For example, as the class is written, there's no way to heal the eidolon; the revised rules are in the FAQ. (Also, the FAQ introduces severe limitations on spellcasting, unless the synthecist chooses the bipedal eidolon form or invests in extra limbs.)what about this spell?
Rejuvenate Eidolon, Lesser
School conjuration (healing); Level summoner 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a drop of your blood)
Range touch
Target eidolon touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
By laying your hand upon an eidolon, you cause its wounds to close and its form to solidify. This spell cures 1d10 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5).
Something about how the classification of eidolon hitpoints as temporary makes it so they can't be healed. I didn't quuite understand it, but they fixed it so that the spell can be used
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People think everything is overpowered. It doesn't matter what it is, they will claim everything is broken until you're just sitting there listening to the dm read out a poorly written novel for 3 hours.Except rogues. No-one thinks rogues are OP.
Oh gosh yes, they do. Many threads from Dm’s complaining about the broken Rogue with his sneak attack. Mind you the sap master can be broken, even so.
Back to the OP:
Take a look at the FAQ. There are more FAQ on this Archetype than on ALL of the Core classes combined. And wait- that’s not all! The archetype continues to generate rules questions. I think the synthesist has generated more posts and threads than any other class or archetype (maybe the monk?). So, you need a J.D. in Rules Lawyering to play or DM the synthesist correctly- and even so there will be endless rules questions and arguments. How much time do you want to commit to knowing how it works? Has your player read every single FAQ and most of the threads? have you?
Next, you must check, double check and triple check the math and legality of the build, and do so EVERY SINGLE LEVEL. Are you willing to put that much time into the class?
So, I am not gonna argue “overpowered’ or not- that’s a matter of opinion and your campaign. But “broken” as in a bad mechanic that causes too many arguments? Yes, the synthesist is broken.
These are all good points.
Another way to phrase it is that Pathfinder tried something new and exciting with the summoner. However, because it is so new and exciting, it is also in need of a 2.0 revision.
The synthesist tends to bring all of the summoner's potential issues to the forefront, and then some.
So, it is a nice concept. It also needs a 2.0 now that it's been played a while and we've learned. This 2.0 can be either on the basis of streamlining or balance or both, but it is in need of it.
2.0 is a bad idea and would cause me to abandon Pathfinder.
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I think most of this comes from what is available. If you're playing with just the core rules, there is a very limited set of things that you can do as a character. When you start adding in a bunch of extra material, a character that you create can suddenly do a bunch of new things that core characters cannot.
Some people consider this overpowered. So even though I have no idea what a synthesis summoner is, I can see what people are reporting in this thread and it sounds beyond what any core character can do, so I see why people think it is overpowered.
Core sets the lower AND upper bound of what the rules do. It is set up to be the bookends of the system. Nothing goes above core in terms of power. You might have some options collectively that are above normal for core, but they never exceed core. How do I know this? Wizards getting wish guaranteed at level 17 is core. The same wizard has a WBL to cast wish over a dozen times according to core. The same wizard can be an elf and get +6 to beat SR in core with only two feats. You can get over 100ft move speeds in core. The luck blade and ring of 3 wishes are core. All the tomes and manuals are core. Gate, powerword kill, immortality, getting ability scores in the 40-50 range, outright immunity to fear/disease/poison, bypassing ALL DR (including epic) of a creature, binding high HD outsiders, hundreds of damage per round... all core.
No other book Paizo has released has singularly had such a plethora of potentially game-breaking abilities. Rather, they simply recombine the above and reflavor them with different mechanics that do similar things. But, they never go above.
No other book Paizo has released has singularly had such a plethora of potentially game-breaking abilities. Rather, they simply recombine the above and reflavor them with different mechanics that do similar things. But, they never go above.
Perhaps not at those high levels, but how many campaigns get into level 17ish? I would imagine the bulk of campaigns live in the lower level range, perhaps going as high as 10. Depending on how often you're playing, a campaign that starts at level 1 could take 6 months+ to get to level 10. Maybe longer.
The group I'm in right now started in May, and we play on average once every 3 weeks for about 8 hours. The PCs just hit level 5. Granted 1/3 weeks is a slow place, but I imagine 8 hour sessions are longer than usual as well.
With that in mind, when you're playing at level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and you are familiar with the core rules, you'll have a good idea of what can and cannot be done. When you include non-core material, that idea will be blown out of the water.
There is a reason that non-core classes are so popular.
There is a reason that non-core classes are so popular.
I think the main reason they are so popular is that they are like the druid. They can do lots of stuff. It's not necessarily better than what a core class can do, but it is effective.
Let's just look at the alchemist. They have extracts, bombs, mutagens, and poison use with discoveries to augment all three.
Compare that to a wizard who has spells and some moderately useful school powers. Once they are out of spells, it's cantrip time!
Compare that to a druid who has spells, an animal companion, and wildshape.
Compare that to a summoner who has spells and an eidolon
Compare that to a magus who has spells, good melee, and arcana
Compare that to a fighter who has a greatsword and a composite longbow.
Compare that to rogue who cries without flanking buddies and the idea of ranged combat.
The newer APs run the gamut from 1 - 18/20ish. Only the older APs, minus Rise, capped at 15 or lower. Carrion Crown begins its last book at 13.
I think the main reason they are so popular is that they are like the druid. They can do lots of stuff. It's not necessarily better than what a core class can do, but it is effective.
Right - that's my point. They can do things that core characters cannot. Does that make them more powerful? Perhaps. In every edition of D&D so far, the non-core material has suffered from power creep - the need to sell more materials encourages it. I would guess that Pathfinder is the same way.
But even if they are totally balanced with core characters in the global sense, due to the fact that they can do things that core characters cannot immediately give them the perception that they are more powerful.