Use Charisma to qualify for Combat Expertise:
"I'm too pretty to die!"
"Not the face! Not the face!"
Combined with intimidate:
(point to hair) "Do NOT touch the do!"
Slashing Grace doesn't actually say "slashing weapon only". So I take two levels of titan mauler then some swashbuckler levels and can use my earth breaker as a one handed piercing weapon?
Slashing Grace doesn't actually say "slashing weapon only". So I take two levels of titan mauler then some swashbuckler levels and can use my earth breaker as a one handed piercing weapon?
It does it just has it in the wrong place for some reason
Slashing Grace
Choose one type of one-handed slashing weapon.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, proficient with
chosen weapon.
The bolded section is the flaw in your logic, right there. One-handed weapons allow you to use a shield, which I know will be argued to be worthless, since "AC is pointless at a certain level" - but this has not been my group's experience through level 15 twice, so we're going to have to agree to disagree. Also, Power Attacking isn't actually something a Swashbuckler would really want to do, -1 attack for +2 damage is barely an even trade in most cases and likely not worth the feat investment unless you fight a lot of weaker enemies who low AC (who you'd probably destroy anyways). Also, the Power Attack penalty would apply to Parry attempts, so I'd probably pass on it, personally.
The point behind that bit of math isn't to compare the two classes across the board, it's to debunk the notion that keeps getting into people's heads that the damage from precise strike does anything but offset the damage you're losing from keeping your off-hand free.
If you want to move the goalposts and look at the potential edge the swashbuckler potentially gets from having a buckler to boost their AC, the first thing you have to address is how a buckler is far and away the worst shield you can have, and how it doesn't allow for a lot of things one might otherwise do with a shield. Use it as a secondary weapon for instance, or get a big ol' tower shield that can block attacks outright along with the better base AC.
And as far as the utility goes, people generally use power attack over combat expertise because the best defense is a good offense. If my damage output causes something to be alive for fewer rounds, it doesn't get to spend those rounds hitting back. +2 damage per 4 levels is indeed less of a value than +3, which is why it's factored in here, but it still makes a difference, particularly if you have a low base to start from, and much much more so if you're ever fighting something that has DR. As a swashbuckler, you might even fight something that has DR and is immune to your precision damage, in which case wow, that +2 damage starts looking really great.
If you disagree, that's fine, but just because you aren't inclined to use an option doesn't mean nobody else should have a choice over it.
I see a lot of people here talking about how this class can't dump str because of power attack, but isn't that the reason piranha strike exists? I'm not a numbers guy, but would it hurt the class too much to go piranha instead of power?
Piranha strike applies only to light weapons. So it's quite good if you want to use a pair of knives, but if you're going for the classic rapier style, it's off the table.
Can I get some help figuring this out, the game available to me is any paizo product, 15 point but and one trait. Help me make a level one human swashbuckler?
Under the first draft I almost rage quit the character... but I really want to love the class.
STR 13 DEX 16(+2 racial) CON 10 INT 8 WIS 9 CHA 14?
So there is power attack with +4 hit for 1D6+3 at level one. Better than my last attempt at least. Still 4 SP/level. Thoughts on doing it better?
You can tank Int all the way to 7 and get a better will save, or bring str up to 14 for slightly more damage. Moving a couple points off Dex onto con is also frankly a must because the fort save will kill you otherwise.
DEX to damage on guns and DEX to damage on melee weapons aren't apples and apples.
Guns. Are. Terrible. Sure they are capable of targeting touch AC, but there is so much stacked against them. The awful misfire stuff, reloading, cost of ammunition. The Gunslinger essentially spends 20 levels overcoming firearms.
Melee weapons on the other hand have a crap ton more to work with. Much more reliable, a crap ton more feat access, access to maneuvers, more support from the rules in general.
You seem to be seriously undervaluing the utility of being able to full attack against touch AC at range. That is a jaw-droppingly valuable thing to bring to the table, and I'm cool with really having to pay for it.
A gunslinger can (if put together right), always full attack every round, be fairly certain to hit even on the last attack because they're aiming at touch AC, avoid ever being subject to a full attack, potentially avoid ever being in melee at all, and thus can probably get away with scandalously low con (fort save effects are generally delivered via melee attacks, and ranged attacks tend not to do a ton of damage), very low str (don't really need armor which is the big deal weight wise), and if we're directly comparing them to a swashbuckler, hey, 4x damage crits, and the same stat powering will saves as a grit pool you only need to spend to counter natural 1s or to use fun flavorful/tactically handy abilities.
I think people are being too technical with the "Int 13" thing. The whole point of it being included in the feats like Improved Trip, etc, is to show that it is a prerequisite (which it is, considering Combat Expertise is also a prereq and requires it). It's more a case of it being redundant in those prereq entries, and less a case of "Well, Swashbuckler Finesse only subs Cha out for the Combat Expertise req, not for feats that build off that chain."
Except that Int 13 is, specifically, independently of Combat Expertise, a prerequisite for those feats. It's even in the FAQ.
I think people are being too technical with the "Int 13" thing. The whole point of it being included in the feats like Improved Trip, etc, is to show that it is a prerequisite (which it is, considering Combat Expertise is also a prereq and requires it). It's more a case of it being redundant in those prereq entries, and less a case of "Well, Swashbuckler Finesse only subs Cha out for the Combat Expertise req, not for feats that build off that chain."Except that Int 13 is, specifically, independently of Combat Expertise, a prerequisite for those feats. It's even in the FAQ.
Yep - you can get Combat Expertise, but your pretty face won't allow you to trip people easier.
Melee weapons on the other hand have a crap ton more to work with. Much more reliable, a crap ton more feat access, access to maneuvers, more support from the rules in general.
But the gunslinger doesn't use "melee weapons" he uses weapon in one hand and a buckler or nothing in the other, dexterity and charisma a horribly underpowered style/build which is NOT supported by the rules in general and fixing that is the entire point of the swashbuckler class.
The eventual touch full attack while standing still is simply amazing. Most melee loses most of its damage when it moves: My druids pet can out damage most melee in actual play just because it has pounce even if the theoretical DPR isn't that high. Most archers start to run into hit problems on their latter attacks and can't always pile on deadly aim etc. SInce touch ac is ridiculously hard to get the gunslinger solves BOTH of those problems by full attacking against a ridiculously low ac, that actually DROPS against many dungeon denizens as you level.
Well I would still like the dex to damage for this class though if it was a feat instead of a special ability then other classes would benefit. Maybe make it so the swashbuckler more easily qualifies for the feat then other classes.
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It's morning, and Charmed Life is still not good. I suppose trading off a bucketload of your versatility for a slightly better chance of dying isn't so bad, unless that evil wizard had low initiative and you parried something already... Ugh.
I'm going to touch on this next bit only very briefly: Guns are NOT terrible. They look bad with just a quick skim, but in practice they have no downsides. If guns really did have those reloading problems and whatnot, I'd agree. There is very little stopping you from full-attacking all of the time a few levels in, either with musket master or that cheesy weapon cord dual pistols approach (that is a LOT of attacks on touch AC). The fact that you are hitting touch AC the entire time means you almost never miss. The gold costs are certainly there, but 6gp a shot isn't that bad by the time you get iterative attacks, and with nearly every attack hitting so consistently you very rarely feel like you're wasting money. I've seen what a non-optimized, no archtype gunslinger can do in a campaign--I can only imagine what an optimized build would be capable of.
The gunslinger does buckets of damage and can stay away from trouble while doing it. Meanwhile the swash does OK damage while standing right in the jaws of danger. At the same time, the gunslinger gets a real Fort save and their only weak save is bolstered by their grit stat. So to play a high-damage, high-defense class, I just need 2 stats on a gunslinger. To play a high-damage, high defense swash, I need 4 stats--5 if I don't want to dump Charisma.
That said, let's honor ChainsawSam's statement that the gunslinger spends 20 levels overcoming firearms for a moment (it's more like 3-5 levels, when they go well beyond compensation, but I digress). The swashbuckler (a gunslinger alternate) should then be spending 20 levels attempting to overcome a one-handed fighting style. Ultimately you don't gain a lot for this class, and it still looks like strength is straight up better until level 11 at minimum, and forever if you run into an elemental (very rare, I know).
Nimble = can't wear medium or heavy armor
Precise Strike = using a single one-handed weapon?
Swashbuckler's Finesse = Fighter level 1 bonus feat
Swashbuckler Weapon Training = limited fighter weapon training, with the trade-off that you get early Improved Crit without paying a feat.
Charmed Life (with baked in limitation that takes away other class abilities) = maybe a little better than Bravery, but then the swash is cursed with a low Fort save after a bad trade for Reflex.
Deeds = bonus feats, since most of the abilities are feat power level anyway. Would you take the dizzying defense feat? How about the swashbuckler's initiative feat? The derring-do feat? Just curious.
I'm sure MechE will chime in about how much better the AC on a swash can be with high Dex and a buckler, but keep in mind that the devs didn't think twice before allowing bucklers and that potential 1-6 points of armor class. Meanwhile, Dex-to-damage is treated like a leper with the plague (except on gunslingers, who get to hit touch AC from range). They aren't entirely wrong, but I also think they are exaggerating the benefit of Precise Strike. If that isn't proof AC isn't as valuable as damage I don't know what is.
I can see after this list that the class appears to be a fair trade... except that it has very demanding ability score dependencies, so the simple fighter can just crank up Strength and be good to go, while the swash has a lot more to worry about. And THAT is where the main difference shows up. It isn't in the class rules so much as the class execution. So it lags behind just like the monk does, and doesn't fulfill its martial role as well as any other martial that can just worry about 1 or 2 stats. On top of that, the Cleric is probably better at fighting oozes. So the rules imply that you can build the class a certain way, and--to be fair--it isn't terrbible, but the end result falls short of both the fighter and the gunslinger (probably should fall below the gunslinger) while having several options that you can't always make use of. Maybe the devs just put a huge value on 4+int skill points per level... while trying to make Swashbuckler's Finesse let you dump Int so that you may not be getting all of those. I don't know.
I'm still going to playtest this, but I don't see much improvement on the first version, since the core issue of making an effective Dex/Cha fighter was not really addressed. Perhaps that experience will change my opinion, but until then:
The Swashbuckler is just a fighter who trades power and versatility for a few tricks. On top of that, it needs stats like a monk, where the fighter can get by with 1 or 2.
Slashing Grace doesn't actually say "slashing weapon only". So I take two levels of titan mauler then some swashbuckler levels and can use my earth breaker as a one handed piercing weapon?
So it does.
Ok, change earth breaker to falchion. Same idea.
I'm going to touch on this next bit only very briefly: Guns are NOT terrible. They look bad with just a quick skim, but in practice they have no downsides. If guns really did have those reloading problems and whatnot, I'd agree. There is very little stopping you from full-attacking all of the time a few levels in, either with musket master or that cheesy weapon cord dual pistols approach (that is a LOT of attacks on touch AC). The fact that you are hitting touch AC the entire time means you almost never miss. The gold costs are certainly there, but 6gp a shot isn't that bad by the time you get iterative attacks, and with nearly every attack hitting so consistently you very rarely feel like you're wasting money. I've seen what a non-optimized, no archtype gunslinger can do in a campaign--I can only imagine what an optimized build would be capable of.
Apparently, the design team considers being able to full attack with guns a bug.
TBH, I don't have anything to say about the Swash that hasn't already been said a hundred times over. This revision did very little to fix the class's underlying problems: Most of the complaints and analyses we saw in the last thread apply to this one.
A note about charmed life. Currently there are two main problems with this ability: You can't use it while you are flat footed and you can only use it once per round.
I can accept the fact that a swashbuckler's Cha to saves will never be as good as that of a paladin, but I think that the two above issues need to be addressed at the very least.
Perhaps when you activate Charmed Life it should work for all saving throws you roll until the start of your next turn?
As for the flat footed problem, there are two ways to fix that. One is to remove the immediate action requirement. The other would be to give Swashbuckers Uncanny Dodge at level 2. Uncanny Dodge would be a very good ability for a Dex based class like this one to have, and right now they don't gain it until level 11.
I have a wierd idea about how to incentivise Dex and deal with the dependency on swift actions. How about:
Swashbuckler's Speed: At 5th level a swashbuckler has access to a number of swift actions equal to his dex mod divided by 2. He still may may cast no more than one spell as a swift action per round.
It's never been done, so don't know what else it might break, but I like it.
Dolarre
Perhaps when you activate Charmed Life it should work for all saving throws you roll until the start of your next turn?
That would be pretty useful. Like activating a passive defense for one round.
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I'm going to touch on this next bit only very briefly: Guns are NOT terrible. They look bad with just a quick skim, but in practice they have no downsides. If guns really did have those reloading problems and whatnot, I'd agree. There is very little stopping you from full-attacking all of the time a few levels in, either with musket master or that cheesy weapon cord dual pistols approach (that is a LOT of attacks on touch AC). The fact that you are hitting touch AC the entire time means you almost never miss. The gold costs are certainly there, but 6gp a shot isn't that bad by the time you get iterative attacks, and with nearly every attack hitting so consistently you very rarely feel like you're wasting money. I've seen what a non-optimized, no archetype gunslinger can do in a campaign--I can only imagine what an optimized build would be capable of.
Unless you're a Gunslinger (or Trench Fighter), firearms are the worst weapons in the whole game.
- Requires EWP
- Slow reload time
- No attribute modifier to damage (again, unless you're a Gunslinger or Trench Fighter)
- Misfire (the only innate Fumble mechanics in the game)
- Horrible, horrible range
- Extremely expensive weapons
- Extremely expensive ammo
- Weak crit threat range (and that x4 multiplier isn't really any better than a x3)
- It's loud (try using guns when Stealth is required)
You need a whole class (and a bunch of feat taxes) devoted to firearms just to make them a viable choice.
I've GMed for a TWF Pistolero Gunslinger... It does deal a lot of damage. And that's it. It's surprisingly easy to deal with them. Not every problem can be solved with bullets and not every enemy stays in a 20ft radius around the Gunslinger (and the ones who do, will often stay in melee and take lots of AoO).
Back on topic:
This may sound harsh, but seeing how this update did so little to address the issues with the class and how we only have 1 week left of playtest, I'm afraid SB is a lost cause...
I think I'll stick with Urban Barbarians, Rangers, Dawnflower Dervish Bards and Kensai Magus. They still are much better swashbucklers than the SB.
I'm going to touch on this next bit only very briefly: Guns are NOT terrible. They look bad with just a quick skim, but in practice they have no downsides. If guns really did have those reloading problems and whatnot, I'd agree. There is very little stopping you from full-attacking all of the time a few levels in, either with musket master or that cheesy weapon cord dual pistols approach (that is a LOT of attacks on touch AC). The fact that you are hitting touch AC the entire time means you almost never miss. The gold costs are certainly there, but 6gp a shot isn't that bad by the time you get iterative attacks, and with nearly every attack hitting so consistently you very rarely feel like you're wasting money. I've seen what a non-optimized, no archetype gunslinger can do in a campaign--I can only imagine what an optimized build would be capable of.Unless you're a Gunslinger (or Trench Fighter), firearms are the worst weapons in the whole game.
- Requires EWP
- Slow reload time
- No attribute modifier to damage (again, unless you're a Gunslinger or Trench Fighter)
- Misfire (the only innate Fumble mechanics in the game)
- Horrible, horrible range
- Extremely expensive weapons
- Extremely expensive ammo
- weak crit threat range (and that x4 multiplier isn't really any better than a x3)
- It's loud (try using guns when Stealth is required)You need a whole class (and a bunch of feat taxes) devoted to firearms just to make them a viable choice.
I've GMed for a TWF Pistolero Gunslinger... It does deal a lot of damage. And that's it. It's surprisingly easy to deal with them. Not every problem can be solved with bullets and not every enemy stays in a 20ft radius around the Gunslinger (and the ones who do, will often stay in melee and take lots of AoO).
Having played a gunslinger myself...this. All of this.
To be fair, range increment penalties are no big deal when your attacks are targeting touch AC, so the range argument is a rather weak one.
(I agree with all the other points though!)
To be fair, range increment penalties are no big deal when your attacks are targeting touch AC, so the range argument is a rather weak one.
(I agree with all the other points though!)
Except for the fact that firearms only target touch AC on their first range increment*. As soon as the enemy moves 20+ft away from you, you're targetting normal AC, and with a -2 to boot.
*Except for advanced firearms, and I'll agree that those are too powerful... If you are a Gunslinger or Trench Fighter, that is. Advanced firearms are still weak weapons for everyone else.
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The limits on Precise Strike still angers me. I am fine if you want to force level to damage to limit level dipping, rather than DEX, that's fine.
But why is a flat bonus not applicable on a crit? I am fine with not being able to spend panache to double my damage if you would let me apply it to a crit.
Alright, one last point about why charmed life needs to be changed.
Let's say a rogue attacks your swashbuckler in the surprise round with a poisoned weapon. You can't use charmed life to help with the save, so you probably have a 50% chance of failing the save (more if it is a strong poison).
So, you now turn to fight the rogue and you are poisoned. Then you realize that it is a type of poison that requires two saves in order to be cured of, and it does Con damage so you can't simply ignore it. (admittedly, this is uncommon because those types of poison are expensive, but I'm just trying to make a point)
In that situation, you are hosed. You are probably using Charmed Life every round in a desperate bid to rid yourself of the poison, and in the meantime you can't use your class abilities because Charmed Life is eating your swift actions. Good luck if the rogue has a second poisoned weapon! He could very well hit you with it after you've already used charmed life for that turn.
Not only does this mess with players... it is knowledge the players can use against enemies as well. I'm sure many parties wouldn't mind using 1000g or so to have a great chance of shutting down a BBEG swashbuckler's abilities for the first two rounds of combat (or more).
Wow please let Swashbucklers be able to do all of their stuff with a net in the other hand, just like a buckler!
Net and trident swashbuckler would be too cool!
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What if each time you got Swashbuckler Weapon Training, you got to choose a special ability, which would include early access to Improved Critical, Dex to Damage, a bonus to CMB & CMD with the weapon, an increase in the weapon damage die, etc. etc.
I also think there should be a choice in deeds.
That way all swashbucklers won't be identical and predictable. Some would be high damage dealers, some would have high AC, some would be highly mobile, some would be battlefield controllers, some would be really good at enhancing their allies, some would be really really good in social situations, etc. etc.
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Having played a gunslinger myself...this. All of this.I'm going to touch on this next bit only very briefly: Guns are NOT terrible. They look bad with just a quick skim, but in practice they have no downsides. If guns really did have those reloading problems and whatnot, I'd agree. There is very little stopping you from full-attacking all of the time a few levels in, either with musket master or that cheesy weapon cord dual pistols approach (that is a LOT of attacks on touch AC). The fact that you are hitting touch AC the entire time means you almost never miss. The gold costs are certainly there, but 6gp a shot isn't that bad by the time you get iterative attacks, and with nearly every attack hitting so consistently you very rarely feel like you're wasting money. I've seen what a non-optimized, no archetype gunslinger can do in a campaign--I can only imagine what an optimized build would be capable of.Unless you're a Gunslinger (or Trench Fighter), firearms are the worst weapons in the whole game.
- Requires EWP
- Slow reload time
- No attribute modifier to damage (again, unless you're a Gunslinger or Trench Fighter)
- Misfire (the only innate Fumble mechanics in the game)
- Horrible, horrible range
- Extremely expensive weapons
- Extremely expensive ammo
- weak crit threat range (and that x4 multiplier isn't really any better than a x3)
- It's loud (try using guns when Stealth is required)You need a whole class (and a bunch of feat taxes) devoted to firearms just to make them a viable choice.
I've GMed for a TWF Pistolero Gunslinger... It does deal a lot of damage. And that's it. It's surprisingly easy to deal with them. Not every problem can be solved with bullets and not every enemy stays in a 20ft radius around the Gunslinger (and the ones who do, will often stay in melee and take lots of AoO).
I would probably argue that wielding a single one-handed light weapon is just as bad. Which is why we need a whole class (and a bunch of feat taxes) devoted to it just to make it viable. Enter the Swashbuckler! See what I did there? I suppose this could only work if the swash were in some way based upon a class that did this, like the gunslinger...
Look guys, guns not being good if you aren't playing a gunslinger is a moot point, because they made the gunslinger. Just like a fighter using a buckler and a rapier with Weapon Finesse has serious limitations--so they make a swashbuckler. Now, as it stands, the swash doesn't go far enough since the devs err far upon the side of caution, but all you are doing with this gunslinger talk is making my point.
It takes an entire class with a fresh outlook to make a sub-optimal weapon viable.
P.S. I don't really see the heavy feat tax for a gunslinger. Nothing more than the usual archer stuff, really. I mean, there is Signature Deed and perhaps Extra Grit, but since you can't take Manyshot you free one feat up. Also, weapon focus isn't quite as necessary (still decent though).
P.S.S. I'd take musket master over pistolero any day of the week, in part because of that range limitation you mention. ALso, Signature Deed on Deadeye brings that touch targeting to 40ft. without spending anything--not too shabby (although you miss out on Signature Bleeding Wound, which is what I take on a musket master).
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3) Slashing Grace is a very weak feat on the whole, since it still requires a Strength focused build if you want to actually hit anything with the chosen weapon. It is also competing directly with Dervish Dance and fails to compare. I understand the reluctance to add Dex to damage mechanics, but that ship has already sailed. I'm also seconding the opinion that feat taxes aren't fun.
If you look at the way the feat is worded, it allows it to be used with Swashbuckler's Finesse; therefore, you can use your DEX to attack with one slashing weapon. Not a weak feat by any means.
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I would probably argue that wielding a single one-handed light weapon is just as bad.
And I would agree.
Which is why we need a whole class (and a bunch of feat taxes) devoted to it just to make it viable. Enter the Swashbuckler! See what I did there? I suppose this could only work if the swash were in some way based upon a class that did this, like the gunslinger...
Yup. Too bad the SB still doesn't really compensate for the drawbacks of dueling. And still fails to live up to its class description.
Look guys, guns not being good if you aren't playing a gunslinger is a moot point, because they made the gunslinger. Just like a fighter using a buckler and a rapier with Weapon Finesse has serious limitations--so they make a swashbuckler. Now, as it stands, the swash doesn't go far enough since the devs err far upon the side of caution, but all you are doing with this gunslinger talk is making my point.
It takes an entire class with a fresh outlook to make a sub-optimal weapon viable.
I agree with you. The Swashbuckler should be a class that maxes Dex-based dueling a viable combat style. But it isn't. And sadly, I'm convinced that won't change.
We'll have a bunch of Str-based and Dervish Dance Swashbucklers because those builds are the only ones that work. Awful saves still restrict the class to low level games (Charmed Life simply doesn't help). They are still incapable of dealing relevant damage to creatures who are immune to precision damage (this shouldn't happen to any full martial class), mobility got a few nice (but minor) tricks, but is still a big no-no. Standing still all the time is still the one way SBs can stay relevant.
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Unless you're a Gunslinger (or Trench Fighter), firearms are the worst weapons in the whole game.
But once you ARE a gunslinger they're absolutely the best weapons in the game.
So... underpowered weapon + class designed to use them= power equal to or greater than other fighting styles.
As it is, dueling with one weapon is the worst weapon style in the game. This is a class for dueling with one weapon, it should come out to be close to equal in power to other classes, not merely turn being in chain mail the equivalent of being in plate armor and making a rapier hit like a greatsword : other classes can wear plate armor and swing a greatsword and THEN they get goodies on top of it.
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Having Dex replace Strength for damage just allows people to dump Strength, while allowing both just means a net +2 or so damage. Adding Dexterity is better than replacing Strength from every standpoint (balance, aesthetics, ease of character design) that I can see.
I think there is a serious issue with a class that wants you to use attacks with one weapon to gain bonuses to damage, while encouraging you to use two-weapon fighting to recharge your panache.
Swashpicklers are still an option, while scimitar or cutlass still requires a feat, and that feat now opens the door to swashbuckling with handaxes. Please, guns are basically a category unto themselves; why can't the swashbuckler just use any melee attack to recharge their panache? You can also have swashbuckling archers who use bows or something as an archetype. If this class is only supposed to work with specific weapons the devs think are cool, just write a list. "Fencing Weapons Group." It will do double duty for fighters.
But once you ARE a gunslinger they're absolutely the best weapons in the game.
So... underpowered weapon + class designed to use them= power equal to or greater than other fighting styles.
Personally, I don't see Gunslingers are OP as much as they are... Odd. They require some extra thought from the GM, but they won't be derailing plots and changing the whole world they are in. They can't pull campaign-changing tricks out of their asses like a caster can.
All they have is damage. Damage doesn't solve everything...
As it is, dueling with one weapon is the worst weapon style in the game. This is a class for dueling with one weapon, it should come out to be close to equal in power to other classes, not merely turn being in chain mail the equivalent of being in plate armor and making a rapier hit like a greatsword : other classes can wear plate armor and swing a greatsword and THEN they get goodies on top of it.
I agree. I too think SBs should make dueling a great combat style. I just don't see it happening.
Dervish Dance makes dueling viable, but it's still less effective than going Str. (Notice how we do not see DD builds all the time... Except for Magus, and again, that's just because the class is forced into dueling.
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What if each time you got Swashbuckler Weapon Training, you got to choose a special ability, which would include early access to Improved Critical, Dex to Damage, a bonus to CMB & CMD with the weapon, an increase in the weapon damage die, etc. etc.
I also think there should be a choice in deeds.
That way all swashbucklers won't be identical and predictable. Some would be high damage dealers, some would have high AC, some would be highly mobile, some would be battlefield controllers, some would be really good at enhancing their allies, some would be really really good in social situations, etc. etc.
I like this idea actually.
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What if each time you got Swashbuckler Weapon Training, you got to choose a special ability, which would include early access to Improved Critical, Dex to Damage, a bonus to CMB & CMD with the weapon, an increase in the weapon damage die, etc. etc.
I also think there should be a choice in deeds.
That way all swashbucklers won't be identical and predictable. Some would be high damage dealers, some would have high AC, some would be highly mobile, some would be battlefield controllers, some would be really good at enhancing their allies, some would be really really good in social situations, etc. etc.
This might be the best way to do it.
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Having Dex replace Strength for damage just allows people to dump Strength, while allowing both just means a net +2 or so damage. Adding Dexterity is better than replacing Strength from every standpoint (balance, aesthetics, ease of character design) that I can see.
I think there is a serious issue with a class that wants you to use attacks with one weapon to gain bonuses to damage, while encouraging you to use two-weapon fighting to recharge your panache.
Swashpicklers are still an option, while scimitar or cutlass still requires a feat, and that feat now opens the door to swashbuckling with handaxes. Please, guns are basically a category unto themselves; why can't the swashbuckler just use any melee attack to recharge their panache? You can also have swashbuckling archers who use bows or something as an archetype. If this class is only supposed to work with specific weapons the devs think are cool, just write a list. "Fencing Weapons Group." It will do double duty for fighters.
you and I finally agree on something! Read the first sentence and was like sweet! until I got to Adding Dexterity is better than replacing Strength from every standpoint (balance, aesthetics, ease of character design) that I can see. and my palm hit my face ridiculously hard.
For those out there, there is almost NO chance that dex to damage will be in a core book. MANY developers have stated how strong this ability is and I will help to explain to the masses.
What does strength do for a character? Carrying capacity, to hit for melee attacks, cmb, to damage for melee attacks and some skills(very few). This is the base of what adding an ability to damage is.
Now let us take a look at what dex does CURRENTLY:
1)AC
2)Reflex
3)Initiative
4)to hit for ranged attacks(meaning if a fighter wants ranged at all, he will still have to have some dex to help with that.)
5)Many, many skills that are useful even in combat including acrobatics
6)to hit with weapon finesse.
7)cmb with agile maneuvers.
So....carrying capacity excluded, strength being reserved for damage because it is a strong ability and isnt used much anywhere else. If they were to be ok adding a dex to damage ability to a core class feature before the capstone is unfathomable. Why would anyone have any strength at all? if dex increases all these other amazing attributes for a character? It can do everything strength can except damage(and carrying capacity)
If you want dex to damage use dervish dance, or a mythic game for mythic finesse.
I used to be in the same want as many here in the forums durring the early stages of pathfinder because I remember AEG from 3.5 having superior finesse as a feat. req weapon finesse and i think combat expertise, and you could deal dex to damage with that weapon you picked for finesse. Until I saw how this game played out a little more.
It's not often you see a HUGE DPR titan mauler barbarian with a 20+ dex because he wants to murder things, not be agile and un-hitable. I am glad that the dev team saw the raw power behind dex to damage and stood their ground on the subject.
On another note, capstone for this class is amazing and hasn't changed. That alone will keep me from wanting to level dip elsewhere. After 5th level I will have a 25% chance to crit on any given attack, including riposte gaining a point of panache back and dealing great damage.
In the mythic game I am playing in(which runs to 20th before the last encounter) walking in with a 15-20(x4) rapier that auto confirms is going to be disgusting!
<before people start asking x2 base, x3 from capstone, x4 from mythic imp crit>
and with power attack as it is on top of str to damage(or dex with dervish or mythic) those crits are going to be alot more noticeable with the best threat range in the game. I think this class is just a few finishing touches of being done. It is balanced, great in some areas, while weaker in others. All around flavor is good, and allows for more than the rapier now! Can not wait for archetypes to finish out the amazing that has come from this work. Keep it up Paizo!
Personally, I don't see Gunslingers are OP as much as they are... Odd. They require some extra thought from the GM, but they won't be derailing plots and changing the whole world they are in. They can't pull campaign-changing tricks out of their asses like a caster can.
All they have is damage. Damage doesn't solve everything...
You're proving my point.
In order to say that gunslingers aren't that bad you had to go to...casters. Not some other fighting style. If that doesn't say that the gunslinger class put guns on top of the weapons heap i don't know what does.
Gunslingers are terrible. Within their thirty foot kill zone they can do some damage, but not that much more than a barbarian or fighter, and beyond it, archery is just better.
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For those out there, there is almost NO chance that dex to damage will be in a core book. MANY developers have stated how strong this ability is and I will help to explain to the masses.
Dude, you are one of the masses. The rudeness of talking down to anyone aside, you can't talk down to people that you're on the same level as.
Dex to damage is strong which is exactly WHY its being pushed for. Dueling is such a weak style that it NEEDS something that strong to go up to the level of other lightly armored, low defense classes.
Dex to damage is incredibly strong when you get it multiple times ie two weapon fighting and natural attacks. Getting it once is kinda meh, and barely makes up for the smaller damage die, much less strength and a half off of a two hander.
I' have a level 3 now 4 Dancing Dervish Bard 1/Swashbuckler 3. 1d6+7 (8 with a trait) points of damage is hardly overpowering considering a first level character with a greatsword can easily do 2d6+6
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Sure, Dex to damage is strong, but the Swashbuckler deserves it, and parking it several levels in makes it undippable.
You're proving my point.
And you are missing mine.
In order to say that gunslingers aren't that bad you had to go to...casters. Not some other fighting style. If that doesn't say that the gunslinger class put guns on top of the weapons heap i don't know what does.
I never said firearms are not the best weapon for Gunslingers. Of course they are. Using firearms is the whole point of the class!
Can Gunslingers deal a lot of damage? Sure! Is that OP? No, not really. They are still vulnerable to will saves and have very limited out-of-combat utility and in-combat versatility. IMHO, a decently built Barbarian, Paladin or Ranger makes a far more valuable party member (although the Barbarian does need some optimization).
Gunslingers' DPR only reaches jaw-dropping levels when they use TWF and only when fight on their terms: against enemies that for some reason are neither far enough to to be out of their 1st range increment nor close enough to be in melee.
There are very few things that I consider OP in this game, and most (if not all) of them are related to spell casters.
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We've already been over the "Dex Does Too Many Things" argument. Those things it helps with aren't that powerful, it still doesn't keep up with 2H Strength damage, and it's a moot point in the end because Dex to Damage is already in the game. Sure it's not core, but it's there, and guess what? Many people still say Strength is better for the Magus.
3.5 had Dex to Damage with the Shadow Blade feat and Champion of Corellon PRC, and it wasn't overpowered in the slightest. Even if you exclude the Ubercharger etc.
Dex to damage is strong which is exactly WHY its being pushed for. Dueling is such a weak style that it NEEDS something that strong to go up to the level of other lightly armored, low defense classes.
I would be very surprised at this point if a Dex-to-damage feature doesn't get put in, given how many people have endorsed it.
I never said firearms are not the best weapon for Gunslingers. Of course they are. Using firearms is the whole point of the class!
Not the best weapons for gun slingers, the best weapon. period.
The crossbow
The gun
The crossbow with a character designed to use it
The greatsword
Pew pew Casters
The greatsword with a character designed to use it
The gun with a character designed to use it
SOD/SOS Casters.
Right now, dueling with a rapier starts off around crossbow. The duelist moves it up to the greatsword, and I'd like it to get up to a greatsword with a character designed to use it.
Dex to damage is strong which is exactly WHY its being pushed for. Dueling is such a weak style that it NEEDS something that strong to go up to the level of other lightly armored, low defense classes.I would be very surprised at this point if a Dex-to-damage feature doesn't get put in, given how many people have endorsed it.
A lot of people pushed for it in round 1. It didn't make it in.
Round 2's bigger problem for me is the immediate action chokepoint the character now has. It makes needing more than 2 panache kind of irrelevant and that makes charisma irrelevant.
Round 2's bigger problem for me is the immediate action chokepoint the character now has.
I greatly agree with this portion of your statement. I would like to see the new Charmed Life power be a free action instead of an immediate action, since I think this it the power the class needs the most and one that gives an extra incentive to pay attention to Charisma.
Round 2's bigger problem for me is the immediate action chokepoint the character now has. It makes needing more than 2 panache kind of irrelevant and that makes charisma irrelevant.
I have noticed that you can do a LOT with just 1 panache, and all you have to do is not use it up.
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Overall, a lot of good changes.
Dizzying Defense is dizzying to read.... you can fight defensively as a swift action... which makes NO sense. I assume that this is a typo from converting the old ability and should read "you can spend a panache when fighting defensively to change the bonus to +4 and the penalty to -2"
The Devs have clearly listened to a lot of the discussions here, and Charmed Life is a great implementation IMO to help incentivise charisma while also aiding the swashbuckler's horrific saving throws.
You can find an instance of light armor restriction in the deeds list, but unfortunately not enough to deter heavy armor usage. Dodging Panache is a neat rewrite of Recovery that sort of encapsulates the type of stat dependencies that I was hoping to see more of.
Derring-Do is the same as it was, the opportunity to have dice "explode" is neat, but this is not a legitimate dex incentive. No one dumps dex outright (some Stalwart style Barbarians might but no swashbuckler will) and that means with just a +1 they can get 2 d6s added to a skill.
The odds are as follows:
+1d6 = 100%
+2d6 = 16.7%
+3d6 = 2.7%
+4d6 = 0.46%
+5d6 = 0.077%
So, with a +4 dexterity modifier, the swashbuckler could get up to +5d6 on a skill check, but the odds are pretty terrible (1 in 1296 attempts) so this is not a case of legitimate scaling and a +1 dexterity modifier will do just fine here. Trying to see a high dex as an advantage here is looking for phantoms.
Still, I am happy with where the class is as long as I can get some clarity of Bleeding Wound..... I have NO idea exactly how this is supposed to work, and if it is meant to be recurring damage or if it is meant to be a flat damage addition (and therefore useable multiple times per round). If it is the latter, then the swashbuckler basically gets dex to damage at level 11 (with signature deed) and everything is kosher.
If it isn't, then dex to damage should be put back into the possibilities, so that a 2 level dip into barbarian isn't such an incredible deal and the swashbuckler isn't still better off with strength and armor over dex.