Revised Slayer Discussion


Class Discussion

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Sayt wrote:

A fighter with Weapon Spec and GWF is, IIRC, eighth level, by which point the Slayer's favoured Target is giving him +2 hit and damage and selecting a target as a swift action, putting them equal? Have I missed something?

Also, rules query, The Slayer may select deadly sneak as a Slayer Talent, however, normally this talent has a pre-req of powerful sneak, which the Slayer cannot take. Is this A) an oversight, or B) a hyper-literal reading of the rules where a slayer doesn't need to meet the prerequisite because he's not a rogue?

EDit: the lone slayer can...um, Improved two weapon feint. Favourted target offsets TWF penalties, I guess?

Weapon Training.

Also as far as TWF Feint.....more feat taxes to use your class ability.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010

The changes all seem good, especially the swift action on the Favored Target moving down to 7th level.

This may not be a popular opinion but I'd really like to be able to make a slayer that doesn't HAVE to have X/day powers.

Fortunately at the moment the only X/day thing that is compulsory is the Slayer's Advance ability.

It's a pretty lackluster ability, especially at only 1/day. How about it be 1/hour? This is similar to the Cat, Cheetah: Sprint ability from the Bestiary.


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Overall I think this class is pretty good but:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
[Emphasis mine] I agree here. There are too few Slayer Talents

I think you missed that there's a list of 17 rogue talents you can select as a slayer talent (and 15 of those don't add to sneak attack).

Err...yay...

I think it's pretty much universally agreed that the worst thing about the Rogue are its Talents.

I'll also second the "Make Favored Target and Sneak Attack synergize a bit more" thing.

Might be good to just let them count their Favored Target as a valid Sneak Attack target, or something similar. Give them an extra debuff they can use when doing Favored Target that takes up another action, or can only be used a certain number of times a day.

Just spitballing here:

Paranoia (Ex): Starting at 5th level, once per day, a Slayer can make his intentions known to his Favored Target as a Free action. The Favored Target is counted as Flatfooted for number of rounds equal to half the Slayer's level. This ability can be used an additional time per day at 8th level and every 3 levels thereafter (to a maximum of 5 times per day at 20th level).

The image I picture is just basically the Slayer pointing at a guy and going "Tonight...you." and he starts getting jumpy, making mistakes, even in the midst of combat. Paranoia may not be a good name for this but short notice and all.


I like it Rynjin.

I'd also still like to see a comparison between the Revised Slayer and the Ranger like Lord_Malkov did towards the end of the initial version's thread. I don't think this version is that much closer to parity with the Ranger...

Liberty's Edge

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Needs proficiency Wooden Stake.

Loss of an animal companion kind of ruins the concept. Take a level of Druid to get Freddy the Flanking Ferret. I dislike the unlimited Studies, much like I hate the Witch's unlimited hexes.


Why do people compare Slayer damage to fighter? Of course the Slayer's damage is not meant to match a fighter. The Slayer has way more skill points and lots of things to do outside of combat. Yes the Slayer will be behind on DPR compared to another heavy melee class, but only a little bit. Meanwhile paladins and fighters will be behind the Slayer in skill use, but by more than a little.


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EricMcG wrote:

Needs proficiency Wooden Stake.

Loss of an animal companion kind of ruins the concept. Take a level of Druid to get Freddy the Flanking Ferret. I dislike the unlimited Studies, much like I hate the Witch's unlimited hexes.

Do people commonly play this game with only one player and the GM?

You don't need the Ferret. You have a party.


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Adam B. 135 wrote:
Why do people compare Slayer damage to fighter?

"A slayer’s abilities are all about getting into combat, dealing with a target, then getting back out again."


ChainsawSam wrote:

Do people commonly play this game with only one player and the GM?

You don't need the Ferret. You have a party.

This class would probably be a great fit for Shatter Defenses as well. Or Feint due to the Bluff bonuses. Sneak Attack just takes more effort than auto-damage abilities.


Are there any existing feats/talents/traits/etc. that allow a character to treat adjacent objects as allies for purposes of flanking? It's an idea that came up in a Swashbuckler thread a few months back, and as I'm reading over the Slayer's Sneak Attack ability, it's something that I think would be a really cool option to allow them to gain access to somehow. Backing your opponents against a wall, etc.

Again, it's something that would certainly be useful for a Swashbuckling sort of character, but I could also see it as a great tool for Slayers to be more self-sufficient when using Sneak Attack in combat. IE, use a combat maneuver like Reposition to back them up against a wall, then gain flanking- "Shank!"


Rynjin wrote:
Adam B. 135 wrote:
Why do people compare Slayer damage to fighter?
"A slayer’s abilities are all about getting into combat, dealing with a target, then getting back out again."

How does it not do those? It actually has the skill points to take acrobatics and do exactly as you said. My post was more than just that question. My post had the explanation of why they should not be compared.


It would also be cool to get an "urban stride" ability similar to the woodland stride that would allow Slayers to move through light and dense rubble, uneven ground and hewn floors, and/or crowds at their normal speed.

And yes, I'm envisioning a city-based Slayer right now. >D

(I guess the closest would be the Urban Ranger's "Push Through" ability.)


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There is no such talent at the time. However, you did remind me of an idea I had before and forgot to write down.

The Slayer could also use the Unwitting Ally rogue talent on it's list.


Combat Style as a trick has really picked things up for the archery Slayer (not that anybody who gives two cares for playing well should really care, per se) thanks to giving access to some previously unavailable feats.

It also gives a neat little boost to TWFers, since you can now grab your bread and butter feats while ignoring prereqs, which might lead one to a Str focused TWF Slayer. The only catch is that you want about 4-5 feats that require high dex, and you can only style 3 of them. To take TWF legit, you need a 15 in dex. At that point, you almost might as well just go dex all the way.

On the other hand, your choices before were one combat feat, and then Fast Stealth, Weapon Focus, and Favored Terrain so...I'll see it as getting closer to rangers. How much closer? Probably not enough, but I hate managing animal companions anyway.

Not that anyone cares about lil ol' me, but I'm definitely not digging 6+ skills/level. If I wanted a skill character/rogue substitute, I'd be playing an Investigator. The fact that I'm not suggests I want to play the class that's a guy whose skills are solely focused at getting into combat, killing his target, and getting out, et cetera. Because for the next month we're going to hear about how 6+ skills means he should be rogue/alchemist parity and not fighter/barbarian parity in combat despite playing 95% identical to a Ranger or Fighter.

Thumbs up for optional Trapfinding. I like options. I disagree with it being a core Slayer theme, given that they could be wilderness assassins, back alley thugs-turned hitman, or any number of other things that aren't smooth assassins breaking into a wizard castle. So Trick is the perfect place to put it, to avoid locking them out of it entirely.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I want access to minor magic and major magic (as rogue). Detect magic and disguise self would be handy for an urban bounty hunter. On the wild side, why not a ranger's animal companion as a talent?


Shadowlord wrote:
The Slayer could also use the Unwitting Ally rogue talent on it's list.

Thanks for that! I definitely agree this would be a good one.

In any event, I'm warming to the Slayer more with this latest revision.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Choosing a level 2 talent still makes me long for my mother's comforting embrace. Uh, weapon training is pretty good? And why is my evasion talent advanced? Still, it started out in a pretty place, and has gotten only better.


Note that some of the suggestions for urban "stuff" could easily be for an Urban Slayer archetype of some sort; just throwing out some ideas that struck me as I was reading over this latest revision. It's definitely got my creative juices flowing!


So, this Wednesday I will get to play a Slayer as a replacement for my poor departed gnome. We're playing Reign of Winter, and are currently level 6. How does the following look to you? I know it's ... atypical :).

Note: this is entirely without gear.

Race: Dwarf.
Class: Slayer, level 6.
Faith: tbd, possibly Marishi
Alignment: NG

Attributes: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 6.

Traits: Glory of Old, Northern Ancestry

Feats: Power Attack, Big Game Hunter, Dorn-Dergar Master
Slayer Talents: (Ranger s+b style) TWF, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Master

Skills: (spreading things around, including var. knowledges, languages and outdoor skills)

Notes: the idea is that he's always been a bit of an atypical dwarf. On the one hand he loves the idea of tried-and-true, but he also likes to challenge assumptions to make sure it remains true. So, he travels the wild places of the world in search of monsters and other contests, carrying his trusty Dorn-Dergar, heavy spiked shield, spiked gauntlet, and chainmail hauberk.

I like the flexible range, and although some of that is sacrificed by using a shield, it still seems worthwhile. Considering a quickdraw light shield, though. Can those be spiked?

If he gains a dex item at some point, it is probably worthwhile to pick up the ITWF feat, but I'm not totally sold on it yet. The low charisma makes me dubious on Cornugon Smash, although it's probably too good to pass up on.
Some support for Bullrush feats down the line as well, since level 10 will bring Bashing Finish through the ranger fighting style feat. Should I consider a scimitar or somesuch? I'll need a non-blunt weapon anyway, and a better crit range might make Bashing Finish a lot better.
We'll see whether Shadowstrike will be important, but it's easy enough to fit in if so.
[Level 12 will be Greater Shield Focus. Got to love skipping prerequisites.]

As it stands, it looks like I'll be picking mostly feats with the slayer talents. Is that what you all expect to do as well? I play a ninja in another campaign, and he picked mostly tricks and talents, beyond the very early levels.


RJGrady wrote:
I want access to minor magic and major magic (as rogue). Detect magic and disguise self would be handy for an urban bounty hunter. On the wild side, why not a ranger's animal companion as a talent?

Seconded.


Adam B. 135 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Adam B. 135 wrote:
Why do people compare Slayer damage to fighter?
"A slayer’s abilities are all about getting into combat, dealing with a target, then getting back out again."
How does it not do those? It actually has the skill points to take acrobatics and do exactly as you said. My post was more than just that question. My post had the explanation of why they should not be compared.

I suggest we add fast tumble to the list too then.


RJG: What about the Rogue, specifically, do you see as exclusively Roguely, meaning that the Slayer thematically (or mechanically balanced...ly?) should not have access to? I ask because minor/major magic seems more about weird versatility (what I imagine is a Rogue thing). My concern being, naturally, that the more random stuff the Slayer carves out from Rogue (or Ranger), the closer it becomes to a Rogue/Ranger multiclass and the farther it is from being a Slayer, whatever that ends up meaning.

If level 2 is so bad, just take a feat instead. Combat Trick, Weapon Training, Finesse Rogue (Finesse Slayer?), they're all good. As for evasion, it's probably advanced because delayed access to strong(ish) powers of parent classes is a common balancing element in hybrids.

Definitely digging the idea of an urban Slayer. Just hope nobody at my table decides that makes it Assassin's Creed Appreciation Day.


Jaunt wrote:

RJG: What about the Rogue, specifically, do you see as exclusively Roguely, meaning that the Slayer thematically (or mechanically balanced...ly?) should not have access to? I ask because minor/major magic seems more about weird versatility (what I imagine is a Rogue thing). My concern being, naturally, that the more random stuff the Slayer carves out from Rogue (or Ranger), the closer it becomes to a Rogue/Ranger multiclass and the farther it is from being a Slayer, whatever that ends up meaning.

If level 2 is so bad, just take a feat instead. Combat Trick, Weapon Training, Finesse Rogue (Finesse Slayer?), they're all good. As for evasion, it's probably advanced because delayed access to strong(ish) powers of parent classes is a common balancing element in hybrids.

Definitely digging the idea of an urban Slayer. Just hope nobody at my table decides that makes it Assassin's Creed Appreciation Day.

What does Assassin's Creed have to do with cities? The only Assassin's Creed game is sailing and rum.

Just like how there is only 3 Star Wars movies and how Dungeons and Dragons went straight from 2nd edition to 3.5


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So, how about a half orc slayer with 2WF (with Kukris), toothy, cornugan smash, and shatter defenses?

This guy sounds like a pretty fun meat grinder to me. At level 8 He'll have 5 attacks, 4 of which can be affected by sneak attack! Of course the flat footedness of the target will also help the lower BAB attacks hit.

Open with High BAB off hand, then meat grind away!

Level 9 take the improved critical feat (kukris).

Even if non-optimal this sounds fun.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I just think the thematics support a bounty hunter, scout, big game hunter, or assassin equally well. I don't think it should be open season on a rogue's unique talent lists, but anything related to stealth, disguises, or sneak attack should be open. I don't particularly see minor/major magic as ESPECIALLY rogue-ish; I think a character who might have to penetrate a baron's keep guarded by a magus and gang of warriors has just as much reason and justification for that as a rogue does.

I might go one further and suggest similar talents that pull from the ranger or inquisitor spell lists.


I could be fudging my recall of mechanics, but I think the Thief (or maybe it wasn't until the Rogue) was the primordial origin of Use Magic Device as a thing that allows people to use magic, well, devices not intended for them. I'll concede nothing is especially roguely about rogues and minor magic in strictly modern thematics. Or mechanics.

Long story short, I'd rather focus on the "this class needs A, B and C in order to feel finished and balanced" before moving on to "well, it'd be cool having X, since a parent class does". I believe we're on different sides of the line when it comes to the Slayer feeling balanced and complete. If you're not advocating open season on the rogue list, may I inquire as to what of significance should stay off-season?

Chainsawsam: The...uh...port cities. Yeah. Ships stop at cities sometimes. that's what. And they assassinate them. Also time travel was built in a city, I think.


I'd hate the two level delay it'd cause in the Favored Target progression and studying becoming move/swift, but I'm really smitten with a 2-level dip in urban barbarian to grab Crowd Control, Controlled Rage, a Rage Power, and Uncanny Dodge.


Jaunt wrote:

I could be fudging my recall of mechanics, but I think the Thief (or maybe it wasn't until the Rogue) was the primordial origin of Use Magic Device as a thing that allows people to use magic, well, devices not intended for them. I'll concede nothing is especially roguely about rogues and minor magic in strictly modern thematics. Or mechanics.

Long story short, I'd rather focus on the "this class needs A, B and C in order to feel finished and balanced" before moving on to "well, it'd be cool having X, since a parent class does". I believe we're on different sides of the line when it comes to the Slayer feeling balanced and complete. If you're not advocating open season on the rogue list, may I inquire as to what of significance should stay off-season?

Chainsawsam: The...uh...port cities. Yeah. Ships stop at cities sometimes. that's what. And they assassinate them. Also time travel was built in a city, I think.

I'm pretty sure old school rogues also used to get very limited magic use.

Could be wrong, I haven't played 2nd AD&D since the mid 90s.


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Adam B. 135 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Adam B. 135 wrote:
Why do people compare Slayer damage to fighter?
"A slayer’s abilities are all about getting into combat, dealing with a target, then getting back out again."
How does it not do those? It actually has the skill points to take acrobatics and do exactly as you said. My post was more than just that question. My post had the explanation of why they should not be compared.

I'm just saying a class who's stated design goal is to be a hard hitting striker is naturally going to draw comparisons to another hard hitting class.

If it is significantly worse in that regard than another class, it might be worth looking at.


Rynjin wrote:


I'm just saying a class who's stated design goal is to be a hard hitting striker is naturally going to draw comparisons to another hard hitting class.

If it is significantly worse in that regard than another class, it might be worth looking at.

I know it's bad form to +1, but +1. This is just about what I've been poorly trying to communicate.

It's great for the Slayer to be picking up more bits and pieces of its parents, but it seems to be gaining more utility, which isn't in line with the stated flavor or vision or whatever. The gist of the message seemed to be "it'll take the killing bits", and that really resonated with me, but then it didn't take enough of those bits to compete with the classes who do focus on that sort of thing, and now half of everybody seems to be suggesting that it be a trapfinding, spellcasting, sneak-attack-easing, social skilling, guy who can do anything that might have something to do with killing a person or getting into place to kill a person. Which seems to be literally anything.


It is not significantly behind a fighter in terms of damage. A fighter has +4 damage over it from weapon specialization. The Slayer matches the +5 from weapon training with favored target. How is this a significant margin by any means? It is behind on damage by 4, has less combat feats (but access to many with its new style talents), and has 4 more skill points a level, more saves, an additional but situational damage ability, and class abilities that aid it in tracking down something so that it can slay it.

Do you really think that 4 damage is enough to say that the slayer cannnot slay? It slays darn well!


Adam B. 135 wrote:

It is not significantly behind a fighter in terms of damage. A fighter has +4 damage over it from weapon specialization. The Slayer matches the +5 from weapon training with favored target. How is this a significant margin by any means? It is behind on damage by 4, has less combat feats (but access to many with its new style talents), and has 4 more skill points a level, more saves, an additional but situational damage ability, and class abilities that aid it in tracking down something so that it can slay it.

Do you really think that 4 damage is enough to say that the slayer cannnot slay? It slays darn well!

What is this stuff you're talking on about?

It's like you're saying the Slayer has given up a portion of its damage in order to have other things instead. Like that somehow the Fighter doing more raw damage is ok. The Slayer having more skills and Sneak Attack is also ok.

Your words are all weird. It's like they're describing this situation where something is taken away from one side and then something else is put in its place and that the sum of those things on that side should be approximate to the stuff on the other side it is compared to.

I don't understand.


ChainsawSam wrote:

I'm pretty sure old school rogues also used to get very limited magic use.

Could be wrong, I haven't played 2nd AD&D since the mid 90s.

They did. As far back as 1E, thieves of higher levels (9th+ IIRC) had a chance to cast spells from scrolls. Which was a big part of the origin of the UMD skill in 3E.

I want to say that it might have had its inspiration in the talents of the Grey Mouser, but it could have been any number of things.


Honestly one should better draw comparisons between Slayer and Ranger who have similar damage, skills, and gameplay.

Except Rangers have spells and an animal companion.


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Shrug, class looks and probably plays fine, this is indeed a hybrid ranger/rogue in my books.


While I like most of the changes (Especially favored target starting at 7th) I'm a bit concerned that the slayer as currently laid out is a bit too good.
Essentially a Slayer can gain a Bonus combat feat at every second level up to 12th (so 1 less than the fighter) but he can dodge prerequisites on many of these feats and gain early access to some rather powerful ones (shield master anyone). After 7th he has an ability that surpasses the fighter's weapon training and add on top of that the fact that he gains a considerable amount of sneak attack dice, that with the number of feats at his disposal he should have no hard time getting use out of.

So comparing fighter and Slayer up to level 12:

Fighter:
+ 1 Feat
+ Armor Training
+ Access to fighter only feats
+ Heavy Armor

Slayer:
+ 4 Skill Ranks per level
+ Good Reflex Save
+ Ability to dodge feat prerequisites
+ Outdoor abilities
+ 4d6 Sneak Attack

To me this comparison looks favorable in regards to the slayer but I'm not the one b&+!~ing about Sneak Attack being soo weak. While Fighter isn't the benchmark the slayer is supposed to be measured against I do believe that no other class should be able to fully stand up to the fighter and the Slayer as laid out probably can.

Dark Archive

Hmm, I still think this class is inferior to a multiclassed ranger/rogue, fighter/ranger or fighter/rogue. I'd tie SA to Favored Target; after all, it seems that the slayer is supposed to take down its targets one by one.

Thought about using a 12th level slayer in my campaign, but even the revised one is less interesting both mechanically and thematically than my original concept (fighter/ranger).

I wonder, does this guy have anything *new* to offer, or will it end up being a specialized and rehashed ranger/rogue build that is less flexible and interesting than its parent classes?


You are a little off Alex. The Ranger combat training talents can only be taken 3 times, but he can still take combat trick. This is a total of 4 feats. So basically, after level 10-ish, you stop getting extra bonus feats. I still think its worth it though. I will basically use this class over rogues from now on. I can trait for social skills if I really need them.


Heres the character build I posted in the old thread upgraded for you Two Weapon Slayer lovers. Notice the MUCH added freedom in my feat choice. I'd love someone to calculate the DPR for it.

Upgraded Taldrin the Whirlwind:
Taldrin the Hurricane

Level 10 Human Slayer (20 Point buy)
Traits: Fate's Favored, Reactionary

Str:20(24)(+2 Human Included and ability points at 4 and 8)
Dex:15
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:12
Cha:7

Feats/Talents:
1: Power Attack
Human: EWP Sawtooth Saber
2: Ranger Style (Two Weapon Fighting)
3: Double Slice
4: Trapfinding
5: Step Up
6: Ranger Style (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
7: Following Step
8: Weapon Training (Sawtooth Saber)
9: Step up and Strike
10: Ranger Style (Two Weapon Rend)

If Traps aren't your thing, take Improved Crit instead, taking Weapon Training at 4th and at 8th take Combat Trick. Step up and Strike is for killing your fearful prey when they try to back away from you.

Gear:
Belt of Giant Str +4
+2 Sawtooth Saber
+2 Sawtooth Saber
Cloak of Resistance +3
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
+3 Mithril Breastplate
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Eyes of the Eagle
Trapspringer's Gloves

Skills: 10 Ranks +3 Class Skill on each
Acrobatics +15
Climb +20
Perception +19(+24 vs Traps)
Stealth +15
Survival +14
Disable Device +20(+25 vs Traps)
Knowledge Local +13

DEFENSES
HP: 89
AC: 25
Fort:+12 Ref:+12 Will:+7

OFFENSES:
Favored Target grants a +3 to Attack and Weapon Damage Rolls. Swift Action to place.
Attack Bonus Calculation: 10(BAB)+7(Str)+3(Fav.Targ)+2(Wep.En)+1(Wep Focus)-2(Two Weapon Fighting)= +21
Attack Bonus without Power Attacking with Favored Target up: +21/+21/+16/+16
Damage: 1d8+12/1d8+12/1d8+12/1d8+12

Attack Bonus while P.A with Favored Target: +18/+18/+13/+13
Damage: 1d8+18/1d8+18/1d8+15/1d8+15

Damage while Sneak Attacking Favored Target: 1d8+12+3d6/1d8+12+3d6/1d8+12+3d6/1d8+12+3d6

At higher levels acquire a Bane Baldric and a Headband of Ninjitsu, THEY ARE AMAZING and will give your main hand some extra punch.


I'll knock together a build to post later.
Completely knocking off Artemis Enterai.

I think it will be a Str Focused TWF, Corrigan Smash, Favored Terrain build and it will be badass


Here's a build that get's rather silly for level 10 with a 20 Point buy. Idea is to get a Wolf flanking friend via Anaimal Ally and get some AoO going on with it via Paired Opportunist/Outflank/Kukris and Opportunist. The build below should prolly minmax a bit harder to increase dex to 16.

Level 10 human Slayer

STR 20
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 7

1 Nature's Sense
HB Combat Reflexes
2 TWF
3 Paired Opportunist
4 WF Kukri
5 Animal Ally
6 ITWF
7 Boon Companion
8 Power Attack
9 Outflank
10 Opportunist

Assuming the following Equipment:
+4 STR Belt
2x +1 Keen Kukris
Boots of Speed

You are hitting a flanked opponent with Favored Target with a

+22 Bonus[+10(BAB)+7(STR)+4(Flanking)+3(Favored Target)+1(Weapon)+1(WF)-2 TWF -2 PA]

Against a CR 10 average AC of 23 that means you authit on all but a fumble and deal 1d4+15 +3d6 and 1d4+10+3d6 with your off hand. I did the Average DPR against AC 23 on a flanked full attack with Tejon's Calculator and it adds up to 119 or 157 when using haste boots.

Add on top of that damage for the wolf's attacks who's dealing 1d10+20+3d6 with a +17/+12 to hit with only minimal investment, attacks from opportunist (if the wolf hits), landing a crit (on average a bit more than one per round),which then gives the wolf an AoO which in turn grants you another AoO each of which is worth another 30some damge from you and a similar amount from wolf boy...


I think your damage calculation is a little off Alex.

Looking at your build I see
Favored Target, not Power Attacking
1d4+11/1d4+7
Favored Target, Power Attacking for -3/+6
1d4+17/1d4+10

Sneak attacking adds 3d6 to those.

Cool build though, for what looks like a more martial oriented Ranger =P


Scavion wrote:

I think your damage calculation is a little off Alex.

Looking at your build I see
Favored Target, not Power Attacking
1d4+11/1d4+7
Favored Target, Power Attacking for -3/+6
1d4+17/1d4+10

Sneak attacking adds 3d6 to those.

Cool build though, for what looks like a more martial oriented Ranger =P

I stand corrected. The DPR calculation used the right numbers however...


Adam B. 135 wrote:
You are a little off Alex. The Ranger combat training talents can only be taken 3 times, but he can still take combat trick. This is a total of 4 feats. So basically, after level 10-ish, you stop getting extra bonus feats. I still think its worth it though. I will basically use this class over rogues from now on. I can trait for social skills if I really need them.

You can also take Weapon Focus at level 4 which every Fighter would be taking, also you get to take the advanced talent Feat at level 12.

Really compared to the fighter you're only missing out on the level 1 feat up to level 12.
While you don't get fighter feats, the fact that you have earlier access to some kick ass feats asnd you are waiving prerrequisites probably balances that out.

Edit: My suggestion would be to remove combat trick and weapon training from the list of Rogue Talents available to the slayer. That would make things far more balanced and would mean the slayer no longer gives the fighter a run for his money but still compares favorably to the Ranger in terms of combat prowess.


I have to side with others in saying that I want Sneak Attack somehow tied to favored target. Perhaps that should be the only way a Slayer can Sneak Attack. It makes no sense for a Slayer to be almost as good at dealing damage as the fighter when we're talking specifically about the favored target.

I'd be ok with other balancing factors to justify this, such as taking a penalty to attack rolls or AC against anything BUT his target, having only one target at a time, and always requiring a move action to declare a target. For a slayer to need to be paired up with someone to do his slaying, though, sorta defeats the purpose.

Skills and other abilities should be secondary to the slaying. You name a class "SLAYER" and I want to kill things better than anyone else in the game, at least specific things, if not things in general.

I would like to see specifically:
-Move Action to declare favored target.
-One target at a time.
-Same combat bonuses against target.
-Cannot take AoO against anything except target.
-Penalty to hit all but declared target (-2)
-Can only SA target, but doesn't require SA prereqs (flanking, FF, etc)
-Maybe fatigue after target is defeated (works like a barb's rage cooldown)

I think this represents the single-minded focus that a slayer would have in bringing down his favored target.


Thumps up! I liked the slayer in its first iteration but now I like it even more.


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Jaunt wrote:
Rynjin wrote:


I'm just saying a class who's stated design goal is to be a hard hitting striker is naturally going to draw comparisons to another hard hitting class.

If it is significantly worse in that regard than another class, it might be worth looking at.

I know it's bad form to +1, but +1. This is just about what I've been poorly trying to communicate.

It's great for the Slayer to be picking up more bits and pieces of its parents, but it seems to be gaining more utility, which isn't in line with the stated flavor or vision or whatever. The gist of the message seemed to be "it'll take the killing bits", and that really resonated with me, but then it didn't take enough of those bits to compete with the classes who do focus on that sort of thing, and now half of everybody seems to be suggesting that it be a trapfinding, spellcasting, sneak-attack-easing, social skilling, guy who can do anything that might have something to do with killing a person or getting into place to kill a person. Which seems to be literally anything.

Definitely agree with this. It's called the SLAYER. Entirely hypothetical doorways, defenses, traps, magic items and diplomacy to get to the SLAYING are entirely not in the stated flavor of the SLAYER nor related to SLAYING.

For sure, make all the archetypes you want, but please, the chassis, the central core of the class needs to be able to SLAY, not be a versatile out-of-combat utility-type. That would be an assassin or special-ops.

Comparisons to Fighters are only muddying the waters. Let's see how the current slayer measures up to a Ranger, and not with WBL or assumed equipment, nor builds. A simple comparative breakdown of abilities by level.

I say again, my feeling is the Slayer is shortchanged compared to the Ranger. Which is not necessarily an evil evil badwrongfun thing, just want to make sure we can either agree or disagree on this...


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
I say again, my feeling is the Slayer is shortchanged compared to the Ranger. Which is not necessarily an evil evil badwrongfun thing, just want to make sure we can either agree or disagree on this...

Maybe you should back up your feeling with arguments... cause I'm not seeing where the Slayer compares poorly to the Ranger.


I'm curious about a couple things now that I've had a chance to look over both the original and the revision:
1. Seeing that both original classes receive Evasion as a class ability, why does the Slayer not receive it?
2. Would it be possible to include a slayer talent available at say 4th or 6th level that allows you to get Uncanny Dodge and Advanced talents for Improved Uncanny Dodge and Improved Evasion assuming the addition of Evasion to the class advancement around 4th or 5th level?


ChainsawSam wrote:
Jaunt wrote:

RJG: What about the Rogue, specifically, do you see as exclusively Roguely, meaning that the Slayer thematically (or mechanically balanced...ly?) should not have access to? I ask because minor/major magic seems more about weird versatility (what I imagine is a Rogue thing). My concern being, naturally, that the more random stuff the Slayer carves out from Rogue (or Ranger), the closer it becomes to a Rogue/Ranger multiclass and the farther it is from being a Slayer, whatever that ends up meaning.

If level 2 is so bad, just take a feat instead. Combat Trick, Weapon Training, Finesse Rogue (Finesse Slayer?), they're all good. As for evasion, it's probably advanced because delayed access to strong(ish) powers of parent classes is a common balancing element in hybrids.

Definitely digging the idea of an urban Slayer. Just hope nobody at my table decides that makes it Assassin's Creed Appreciation Day.

What does Assassin's Creed have to do with cities? The only Assassin's Creed game is sailing and rum.

Just like how there is only 3 Star Wars movies and how Dungeons and Dragons went straight from 2nd edition to 3.5

oh you.

Spoiler:
although really i preferred 2 over 4, since the cities are bigger/more interesting route-wise, and you dont hear LOWLANDS AWEIGH every fourty seconds. I actually laughed when youre tailing the italian ambassador, and he's insulting the english on their architecture and style of dress--which, having played through renaissance italy, i agreed with. still a hugely fun game though.

super stoked about them teasing possible wild west or shogunate era japan titles though. and that watchdogs and assassins creed are in the same world--Abstergo gets an ad from the BLUME security firm saying they should switch to their services.

spoilered for semi-off-topic.

though I've been raring for an AC-esque slayer since i saw the class, so i'm mostly pleased with this.

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