Revised Shaman Discussion


Class Discussion

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Zero_Magi wrote:

It generally is a well made class with the spirit and wandering spirit but plz add somehow mechanics like ''voodoo'' or even ''tottem''

Voodoo is an American religion, not a mechanic.


RJGrady wrote:
Zero_Magi wrote:

It generally is a well made class with the spirit and wandering spirit but plz add somehow mechanics like ''voodoo'' or even ''tottem''

Voodoo is an American religion, not a mechanic.

I was about to say "It's not american", but then it struck me that there are other americas than 'Murica.

I am deeply ashamed.

Grand Lodge

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
What aspects of the spell list are you looking for feedback on?

Its not really something I can crowd-source. Basing it off druid just does not feel right, despite the fact that it is a reasonable fit for the theme. I am still mulling it over, weighing options.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I agree completely. I am "Ok" with druid + stuff but it really feels like this class needs a custom list.

Secondly, the hexes... please include some. You have these things called "hexes" but NONE of them come from the witch list... not one... so right now we're looking at shaman being a DRUID ALTERNATE CLASS instead of oracle witch.

This class has serious potential to fill a gap, that gap being the gap between cleric and druid. A moderate armor moderate offensive power partial/full caster with support and healing. Witch/oracle fills it well in theory, we just haven't hit the reality yet.

Currently I feel like Shaman doesn't really blend anything. As it stands its 85% oracle, 10% druid, and 5% witch... considering its suppose to be oracle/witch that's a problem. Hexes please, and a custom list closer to witch than oracle.

We only have half a class currently...

If you look at most classes they fill 3+ roles in a party.

Fighter is tank/damage/control
Cleric is healer/damage/buffer

Shaman should be Healer/Damage/Control. We have healing, a good spell list is damage... it needs hexes for control.


General feel -- In reading about shamans, there is a lot about spirits and entering the Spirit World, as well as a focus on healing and divination. In view of this, and to make the class fell more "witchy", it would be interesting to make this class focus more on the Elemental and Outer Planes (while the Cleric is focused on the positive and negative material planes and the Druid is more focused on the natural world). (Perhaps limiting the Spirits to the 4 elements, Nature, Ancestors and Lore -- giving the Spirit Magic and Spirit Abilities.) I agree with those that suggest making the hexes more witch-like, with a single list of hexes to choose from. Also along these lines, the hexes can be more powerful while BAB goes to 1/2.

Familiars -- I like the idea of an animal interface between the shaman and the spirit world, but the idea of a spirit animal sounds great -- perhaps what is effectively an animal possessed by some spirit. If the animal body dies, access to the Spirit Magic and Hexes should be lost until another animal is possessed by the spirit (through an appropriately priced ceremony), but not access to the base spell list.

Spells -- While the mixture of Druid and selected cleric spells was a definite improvement for this class, a lot of the druid spells feel wrong. I agree with those that are arguing for a separate spell list for the class, that turns the focus from the Shaman from buffing himself for combat (the Warpriest role) to group buffs and, preferably, ways of directly attacking the opposing casters (combatting their spirits / sources of power).


I personally believe the shaman spell list needs a rework so that it consists of buff - support - healing spells from cleric-druid list and either add some arcane witch spells , or expand his ability to crowd control with hexes.

I partially agree with Hrothgar that he should fill the roles :
Healer/ Buffer / Control


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The way I see it, there are two problems right now:

1) Mechanically, the class is schizophrenic. It has 3/4 BAB, armor, and a battle spirit, so you're supposed to be decent martially, right? Some hexes/spirit abilities use charisma, so you're supposed to do that too, I assume. Spells use WIS, so obviously that as well, and there's a spirit that gives you INT bonuses and uses it for one of its hexes, so that too I guess? Oh, some of the hexes trigger when you cast certain kinds of spells, which may or may not actually be on your spell list in any usable number. There's a bunch of stuff that seems designed to get your familiar out of the Adamantine box and into the fight, including one which turns it into an animal companion, but there's also the "you turn into an an expert if it ever dies" clause. Then there's nature, which has a hex that adds spells to your list which were already there. The class feels like somebody took a bunch of druid, oracle and witch abilities (in that order) and threw them together without any concern as to whether or not it works as a cohesive unit. Granted, it's still powerful because it's a full caster, but it's also frustrating because a huge chunk of Shaman's abilities just don't do what they say on the box.

2) Flavorfully, druid list pigeonholes the class into a nature-priest. The bonus spells help, but aren't enough. I'm not sure why anyone thinks this is a good idea. Elementalist Shamans I can see as expectation from media like WoW and Diablo, but elemental spells are really more of a Wizard thing than Druid. (Yes, there are elemental druid spells, but there's no fireball, but they're far fewer and less iconic.) What druid does give you is a bunch of animal and plant-themed stuff, which is definitely appropriate for a Shaman with the nature spirit, but my Bones/Lore shaman is looking at them very funny. Even my Flame/Waves shaman would rather have Cleric + Evocation from Sor/Wiz list, and that was one of the flavors of shaman the change was supposed to help. Changing hats to a DM, my main interest in Shaman is as a Shinto-style priest dealing with Kami, and as things are I'm going to stat it up as a cleric. The feel just isn't right.

The first problem has a simple answer: Figure out what the Shaman is supposed to be doing mechanically, and make him do it. Don't just copy/paste text from other classes haphazardly. I honestly don't know why revelations were reskinned as hexes in the first place, but they're not working. Either scrap them entirely and write new material, or go through them one by one and axe the ones that don't fit the vision, whatever it ends up being. While you're at it, make sure the spirit abilities hit the right notes. Life Shamans' Greater ability being worse at healing than Battle's basic spirit ability needs to go.

The second problem is harder. Everybody seems to have their own idea of what a Shaman should be, and the limitation of "must use existing spell list" is not helping. Having spirit choice more directly effect available spells would be a big plus. That said, while, I'd like the Shaman to be broad enough to cover everybody's desires, if that's not in the cards it needs to double down on one theme. Better have a class that does something some people like than one which disappoints everyone.


AndIMustMask wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Zero_Magi wrote:

It generally is a well made class with the spirit and wandering spirit but plz add somehow mechanics like ''voodoo'' or even ''tottem''

Voodoo is an American religion, not a mechanic.

I was about to say "It's not american", but then it struck me that there are other americas than 'Murica.

I am deeply ashamed.

West African Vudun...


KramlmarK wrote:

The way I see it, there are two problems right now:

'Whole bunch o'stuff'

I agree on the schizophrenic mechanics and haphazard copy and paste. I also think that the move to Kami and Shinto is a great idea. If anyone remembers the Binder base class from Tome of Magic for 3.5 (it was a mess,) that is a solid idea for the wandering spirit ability. Instead of binding a single spirit for good and another whenever you feel, it would probably be better to bind one spirit and be able to change that spirit each day when you prepare spells.

When you bind Kami of X, you get X oriented abilities with advancement like a bloodline. The idea being as you level, you can tap into/complete a better pact with the chosen ideal/kami. Having eight or so of these to choose from would be easy to balance against. My top eight would be the four elements, death, life, void, and nature.


Okay, some feedback broken down by what each class is adding into Shaman currently.

Witch - 10% of the current Shaman

  • Hexes - If these are going to be a thing, we either need real witch hexes or scrap them and go with oracle revelations. Pick one concept and actually build the Shaman equivalent similarly. Currently a couple Hex related feats literally require a witch level or access to Hexes not offered to the Shaman.
  • Familiar - I like the perks that the spirits give the familiars. However, this is a 3/4 BAB class. A Shaman has the ability to get into the fray and that would be bad if you're busy worrying about the squirrel on your shoulder. If you're going to be primarily a caster, then this isn't much of an issue.
  • Save or Suck - That's what I think of when I've played a witch. It's fun to beat your enemies by slowly destroying every stat they have, adding bleed type damage each round, and making them wish they'd never gotten out of bed that morning. Shaman doesn't really have that. Sure, each spirit has like one "sucks to be you" ability that they can inflict on someone, but it's so little that it could just as well be explained by an odd oracle revelation.

Oracle - 70% of the current Shaman

  • Hexes - Let's be honest, these are slightly more powerful Mystery Revelations and not Hexes. Pick one of the two concepts and name accordingly. Less powerful spirit hexes called "Revelations" would allow Shaman to hook into existing Oracle feats.
  • Versatility - I think the Shaman has the possibility for a lot of versatility, but I'm worried that there isn't enough choice within a Spirit for what Hexes you want. This is countered at higher levels by the Wandering Spirit ability.
  • Spirits - I like the spirit concept in general and the double-duty naming scheme of using the Oracle Mysteries. It's convenient for coming up with new things to add to the class, because you can just add the same theme to both Oracle and Shaman at the same time.
  • Melee - I rolled up a Shaman of Battle for PFS. At level 1, all they can do that's "Battle" is heal better. That's it. It's really kind of a letdown when you're wanting to be a melee shaman and there are better choices for you than actually going with "Battle" as your spirit. Enlarge Person is handy, but for the first ability to "set the mood" I was expecting something more along the lines of Oracle's "Battlecry" which gives combat bonuses to the Oracle and her party for a couple rounds. Yes, the spirit ability is very similar to one of the Oracle of Battle's revelations, but I think it was a very poor choice for a defining spirit ability of Battle.

Druid - 20% of the current Shaman

  • Melee Buff Spells - Druid focuses too much on natural attacks vs any other type of attacks. This causes issues with any Shaman trying to hit something.
  • Melee Buff Spells Part 2 - Since the Druid list focuses on natural attacks the Shaman needs either an Animal Companion or spirit themed Eidolon (yes, I said Eidolon) in order to have something to take advantage of those. At anything other than 1st level, no one is going to send their familiar in to be a combatant and use the melee attack buffs.
  • Spell List - There is a lot in the druid list that adds flavor to the concept of a Shaman. There are also a lot of things that make no sense for a Shaman. The cleric list has the same problem, but in different ways. Clerics are too urban in their spirituality and Druids are too rural. Shaman needs to be from the suburbs. It needs a good mix of the urban and rural to play with the spirits from both realms.


I have several ideas based around the parent classes combined with the ideas and lore behind shamanism.

1. Spirits: The major idea here being benevolent vs. melevolent. That could translate well into Oracle vs. Witch.

a. Spirits available to Shamans should be devided into benevolent (good) and melevolent (evil) spirits, with a sub category of neutral spirits which have both good and evil qualities.

b. Perhaps the Shaman should have to choose upon creation whether they will associate/commune with benevolent spirits or melevolent spirits. Which could tie into the Shaman's alignment and all Shamans would have access to the neutral spirits. Neutral Shamans would choose to sway toward benevolence or melevolence upon creation.

c. Benevolent spirits could ofer protections, buffs, and healing, melevolent spirits could ofer hexes, curses, and infliction, while neutral spirits might offer a bit of both.

d. The Wandering Spirit mechanic might be the bidge between benevolence and melevolence when a Shaman has become strong enough to handle the opposing influence. A benevolent Shaman might be encouraged to keep his wandering spirit in line with the benevolent and neutral groups, but perhaps he could have the ability to select a melevolent spirit for short ammounts of time without adverse effects (Represented by Will saves after so many days/weeks to keep from losing yourself - much like with intelligent items of opposing alignment).

e. If you keep the Spirit Animal/Familiar, each spirit, or group of spirits, might even identify themselves through a different set of animals.

2. Spell Lists: This could tie into the benevolence vs. melevolence idea aswell.

a. The majority of the Shaman's spell list could come from a neutral list of both Oracle and Witch spells, which would include most dirrect damage spells, divinations, transportation, and buff spells. A secondary portion of their spell list could come from wich side they choose to identify with. Benevolence being healing and protection spells from Oracle and Witch spell lists. Melevololence being the infliction and debuff spells.

b. The Shaman could still gain access to some spells of her opposing faction through the wandering spirit ability. The Wandering Hex ability would follow the same idea as well.

3. Spirit Animal and Spell Memorization: The Spirit Animal is a large part of Shamanism and so might be a good aspect to keep. However, many traditional spirit animals were more like Druid companions than Wizard familiars. The Jaguar comes to mind. With that, replacement or expantion of the Shaman's spirit animal and spell preperation might be in order.

a. Shamans used several items, those that blend well with an adventuring hero in my mind include: Runes (bone or stone), Smoke from specific substances, and Quipu (knot writing, more Incan than Shaman specific but blends well with the idea).

b. The Shaman could commune dirrectly with it's spirit (or indirrectly through a spirit animal) using bone/stone runes to select it's spells. The runes representing a divination telling the Shaman the best spells to prepare for that day.


Dirge Of Hubris wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Zero_Magi wrote:

It generally is a well made class with the spirit and wandering spirit but plz add somehow mechanics like ''voodoo'' or even ''tottem''

Voodoo is an American religion, not a mechanic.

I was about to say "It's not american", but then it struck me that there are other americas than 'Murica.

I am deeply ashamed.

West African Vudun...

Threadjack on:

And in Haiti as well.
Same religion (or at least similar), different Spelling (Has nothing to do with the Hollywood stuff though). And we got Santeria, Candomblé, etc.

Threadjack off.

Grand Lodge

Regarding the familiar.

Does anyone else think the shaman should be able to get Improved Familiar?

Cause I'm seeing some seriously awesome stuff that can go down with that.

Too bad Improved Familiar requires arcane caster levels :(


Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:

Regarding the familiar.

Does anyone else think the shaman should be able to get Improved Familiar?

Cause I'm seeing some seriously awesome stuff that can go down with that.

Too bad Improved Familiar requires arcane caster levels :(

He should get it for free and keep the bonus from his spirits and the initial familiar bonus, of course! The spirits be closer with you that way.

Grand Lodge

MrSin wrote:
Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:

Regarding the familiar.

Does anyone else think the shaman should be able to get Improved Familiar?

Cause I'm seeing some seriously awesome stuff that can go down with that.

Too bad Improved Familiar requires arcane caster levels :(

He should get it for free and keep the bonus from his spirits and the initial familiar bonus, of course! The spirits be closer with you that way.

I believe the Familiar is a good way to grant access to witch hexes. And since its an alternate class shaman levels count as witch levels for prerequisites right?

Let us say you choose a toad familiar, that toad familiar gives you access to the blight hex, the evil eye hex, and lets say the cackle hex(A frog croaks constantly)

Each familiar choice, grants associated hex options that the Shaman can draw from.

But then again that might be needless complication.

Snip snip edit snipe for the sake of simplicity.


Virgil Firecask wrote:

Okay, some feedback broken down by what each class is adding into Shaman currently.

*feedback stuff*

There's a lot you've said there that makes sense. A Shaman of Battle should feel like someone prepared to fight, not heal. It's weird because the better combat orientated 1st level spirit power belongs to Nature. I'd have instead moved the first part of the Battle Master hex into the granted power thing, or worded it so Combat Reflexes queues off Wisdom instead. That would sound more like the spirits of battle are helping you from the start.

The ratio of what classes have contributed here also sounds about right, especially in light of the spell list change. When you do the numbers, only one "Hex" seems like something everyone would want to play with. Heaven's Leap has already proven itself to be the part of the Shaman's spirits that is ready to ship. Renaming the "Hexes" as Boons would probably have gone a long way to remedy some of our problems here, as we'd expect abilities that act as boons. As it stands, not every spirit has great "Hex" potential.

We can work around the fact we have a 3/4 BAB class with a familiar, but we need to tweak things to make it work. The Spirit Familiar abilities given through your spirits does help. Giving /DR and fast healing to a familiar make the Earth/Life combo a valid approach, but we need to dig a little deeper. Perhaps something that initially makes them heartier than the average familiar, so we might be more willing to let it take a chance in a fight.


Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:

I believe the Familiar is a good way to grant access to witch hexes. And since its an alternate class shaman levels count as witch levels for prerequisites right?

Let us say you choose a toad familiar, that toad familiar gives you access to the blight hex, the evil eye hex, and lets say the cackle hex(A frog croaks constantly)

Reminds me of the beta witch actually. Your witch familiar chose your spell list. I had this snake that gave me fireball if I remember right, but that was a long time ago.

I'm actually not a fan of attaching things to your familiar because it inspires people to pick a familiar for mechanics rather than pick something for fun. Sure your witch could get a sly cat, but you won't get a bonus to bluff and the silly dinosaur gives a great bonus to an awesome bonus to initiative! I mean you really wanted that cat, but the pig gives you all the hex choices you really wanted, including fly hex, of course.


Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:

Regarding the familiar.

Does anyone else think the shaman should be able to get Improved Familiar?

Cause I'm seeing some seriously awesome stuff that can go down with that.

Too bad Improved Familiar requires arcane caster levels :(

I also read the line "once the familiar is selected it can never be changed" or something similar to that, to mean improved familiar was off the table also. Kind of a shame, like others here have mentioned I will never take my familiar out of the bag as it is. That is not to say I want to give it away for nothing, alertness and a skill boost are always welcome, but really that is all the familiar is to me right now.

Grand Lodge

Oh lord...fly hex on the pig.

If only the familiar could use the hexes it grants ^_^

That would give DM's a reason not to utterly ignore the familiar... if the familiar is using misfortune on their boss type NPC and then cackling just to be a jerk... the DM has a reason to remove the issue, and the player a reason to protect their fragile familiar.


Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:

Oh lord...fly hex on the pig.

If only the familiar could use the hexes it grants ^_^

We have to do this now. When pigs fly you say... Viola!

Ahh, maybe add more familiar focused hexes. I remember when I tried to do a homebrew oracle/witch of my own a while back I created additional choices outside of your chosen revelation that anyone could pick that were following a particular theme that didn't fit well with any particular mystery but fit in well with the class over all.

Edit: Oh my gosh! Looked back at it and it was actually called the spirit guide revelation and improved spirit guide. Haha! Coincidence.

Grand Lodge

Lets see

Pig: Fly, Charm(I mean come on... tell me pigs arn't adorable), Feral Speech(That'll do pig, that'll do)

Cat: Beast of Ill Omen, Evil eye(I've never seen a cat that can't do this), Misfortune

Bat: Poison Steep, Unnerve Bests, Scar

Ect ect ect...


Personally, I'm happy to not let the Shaman get Witch Oracles. Witches are the squishiest class in the entire game… handing off any of their really good hexes to a medium-armored d8 would feel unfair to them. =/


QuidEst wrote:
Personally, I'm happy to not let the Shaman get Witch Oracles. Witches are the squishiest class in the entire game… handing off any of their really good hexes to a medium-armored d8 would feel unfair to them. =/

You might be able to count the number of really good hexes witches have on one hand.


MrSin wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Personally, I'm happy to not let the Shaman get Witch Oracles. Witches are the squishiest class in the entire game… handing off any of their really good hexes to a medium-armored d8 would feel unfair to them. =/
You might be able to count the number of really good hexes witches have on one hand.

All the more reason not to go handing them out. *shrugs*

Grand Lodge

But if you don't move SOME of the hexes over... what does witch really contribute to the class? Survey says... zero

I really like this "Get improved familiar" idea.

Lets say that when a shaman first enters the class, he forms a bond with a spirit guide. That spirit guide is his envoy to the spirit world, and his means to gain access to spirit abilities. It has one of its own, which determines some of its traits, but can then facilitate the acquisition of temporary contracts with the other spirits, thus giving the shaman the wandering spirit class feature.

At first the spirit is weak, and must inhabit a living creature to survive and manifest on the prime material. (Which btw: Base familiars are almost all animals, if not all animals)

Once the shaman reaches 3rd or 5th level the spirit has gained power, and can manifest on its own, allowing it to take the form of an elemental, template animal(IE celestial hawk) or even some magical beasts.

At 7th or 9th level the spirit gains power again, and can manifest as any of the 7th level requirement improved familiars with all their powers.

After that it gains small QOL improvements. A feat or two maybe.

The familiar allows access to a VERY limited number of hexes. I say three per base familiar. None of which should be the witch's bread and butter. So no cauldron, no cackle, no prehensile hair. The shaman can learn one at 5th and another at 10th. No major hexes, no grand hexes. Just the basic stuff.

The idea ties witch into the class and provides a breath of options that it is currently lacking... and makes it the only class that has familiars that ACTUALLY DO STUFF. :p


MrSin wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Personally, I'm happy to not let the Shaman get Witch Oracles. Witches are the squishiest class in the entire game… handing off any of their really good hexes to a medium-armored d8 would feel unfair to them. =/
You might be able to count the number of really good hexes witches have on one hand.

To be fair, Slumber, Ill Omen/Cackle (they are one thing, I don't care if I have to buy them separately), and Ice Tomb are the best parts of playing witch. I wouldn't give those away. Decent-not-crazy stuff like Misfortune, though? I wouldn't mind it in Shaman, at least mechanically. They'd need decent flavor justification, though, but I don't see any reason why that'd be impossible (maybe on some ghost-themed spirit).


Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:

Regarding the familiar.

Does anyone else think the shaman should be able to get Improved Familiar?

Cause I'm seeing some seriously awesome stuff that can go down with that.

Too bad Improved Familiar requires arcane caster levels :(

I'm fine leaving familiars to the arcane casters.

It doesn't fit the theme of a shaman in the first place....

And I really dislike the idea of yet one more class that I need to figure out how to get out of having a familiar if I want to play one.


Could someone enlighten me as to what is meant by "CODEzilla" spells...
I'm totally lost on this part of the discussion :P

Grand Lodge

Im not. This is a WITCH alternate class. Witch gets a familiar.

Just cause its there doesn't mean you HAVE to use it.

I don't see barbarians that use trapsense more than a few times in a campaign or druids that use resist nature's lure.

Just cause a mechanic exists, doesn't mean you have to use it.

And its CODzilla.

It means "Cleric or Druid" zilla.

IE spells like divine favor, divine power, and animal growth.

When the cleric or druid uses one on himself he goes from mild mannered PC to unstoppable wrecking ball if built properly.


nighttree wrote:

Could someone enlighten me as to what is meant by "CODEzilla" spells...

I'm totally lost on this part of the discussion :P

Cleric-or-Druid-zilla. Load yourself up with buffs/wildshape, and outperform the fighter at fighting. (Druid is a bit of a holdover from 3.5, when wildshape just set your stats. It's still do-able, but you at least have to invest in it these days).


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
nighttree wrote:

Could someone enlighten me as to what is meant by "CODEzilla" spells...

I'm totally lost on this part of the discussion :P

Back in the day, clerics and druids could get 90% of the melee functionality of fighters, 90% of the blasting capability of wizards, and were still the best healers and buffer in the game. The phrase "C(leric)o(r)D(ruid)zilla" was coined for the resulting monster that would rampage through your campaigns, destroying everything. On the cleric side, you had lots of stackable bonuses, and a questionable feat called Divine Metamagic that could be used with a questionable item that granted additional turnings. On the druid side, you had wildshape flatly replacing your physical ability scores while you used Natural Spell to continue casting, and had an animal companion that was close enough numerically to a fighter or barbarian that your party's martial characters started to feel like pets themselves.

So, that's gone now. But the phrase crops up again whenever people start seeing exploits that could potentially let a cleric trump the fighter at their own game for more than a brief surge of power.


nighttree wrote:

Could someone enlighten me as to what is meant by "CODEzilla" spells...

I'm totally lost on this part of the discussion :P

CoDZilla usually refers to 3.5 Clerics and Druids. Extensive threads in forums and practical play more or less proved that they were the only classes you didn't need to multiclass with in order to achieve gamebreaker levels of power. Both the Cleric and the Druid were Godzilla to the game. So Cleric or Druid as Godzilla became CoDZilla.

Grand Lodge

I've done it with a grippli druid in pathfinder... not nearly as strong as it use to be.

"Oh look a little frog man... lets eat it"

*Grippli druid(Named ribbit) goes from size small humanoid to size huge T-rex.

"Oh crap"

*Size huge t-rex turns into size garg t-rex with animal growth*

"Someone... anyone... have some spare pants?"

*OMNOMNOMNOMNOM!*

grippli officially replace halflings as the "-2 strength, +1 dinosaur" race now... huzah


Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:

Im not. This is a WITCH alternate class. Witch gets a familiar.

Just cause its there doesn't mean you HAVE to use it.

I don't see barbarians that use trapsense more than a few times in a campaign or druids that use resist nature's lure.

Just cause a mechanic exists, doesn't mean you have to use it.

Maybe that's why I'm having such a hard time with the direction it's going...I'm looking at it as a Shaman class.

Not an alternate witch...or oracle.

Both of those classes have the flexibility to go many routes with them already....I don't see any point in an alternate witch.

Granted, I understand that it's meant to be a spiritual hybrid of the witch and oracle class....but if it's just going to copy some witch stuff, and some oracle stuff...with very little effort to make it it's own class....I guess I just don't see the point.

Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:

And its CODzilla.

It means "Cleric or Druid" zilla.

IE spells like divine favor, divine power, and animal growth.

When the cleric or druid uses one on himself he goes from mild mannered PC to unstoppable wrecking ball if built properly.

So spells that make you a melee brute ???

I think I got it ;)

Grand Lodge

Agreed, I don't think it should have so much a "Familiar" as a "Spirit guide"

As in my previous post. A helper that does some of the work.

Shamen are always in touch with the spirits, even if they're not normally seen.

A "Familiar type" mechanic does a lot of the tieing in that grounds the class, so I think it should stay.


Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:

Agreed, I don't think it should have so much a "Familiar" as a "Spirit guide"

As in my previous post. A helper that does some of the work.

Shamen are always in touch with the spirits, even if they're not normally seen.

A "Familiar type" mechanic does a lot of the tieing in that grounds the class, so I think it should stay.

And I guess that's where we disagree.

The spirit and wandering spirit class features already cover the helping spirits.

There are however other elements cross-culturally tied to being a shaman, that are in no way represented by the current class.

I would rather see an element that doesn't fit the theme in any fashion, like the familiar, tossed out and replaced with something that does fit the theme.

For example talismanic and fetish items....
Ability to see and detect spirits (ethereal or invisible.
Ability to effect spirits (incorporeal or ethereal)

Grand Lodge

I'd be ok with an option between a familiar, a fetish(Which grants hexes), or something else.

Sort of a "Pick your oracle bits, then pick your witch bits, then rock face with them!" concept.

Its solid.

Its more than solid... that's paydirt.

Spirit guide - pick fetish or spirit animal.

Fetish gives hexes at the same level your spirit animal would "grow up"

Spirit animal goes from basic familiar to improved familiar and beyond, no hexes though.

Fixes the flexibility issue, fixes the lack of variance issue, and is easier to balance.


What about something like this....

Ditch "wandering" spirits that can be changed from day to day.

Add an additional spirit available every four or five levels.
Leave them "undefined" much like the witches patron.

Instead of trying to write up each spirit and it's abilities....
When bound to a spirit, you can choose any one revelation found in an oracle mystery that you qualify for....and/or any one witch hex you qualify for....once chosen, these cant be changed unless you sever your relationship with that spirit and bind another (same kind of time and ritual as summoning a new familiar)

That way each shaman can be built with a maximum of flexibility.

Add a few "shaman" specific abilities that allow for detecting and dealing with harmful spirits.

Grand Lodge

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I don't like non specific spirits. Most traditional forms of shamanism have very specific entities that govern parts of nature. Like the voodoo loa, and the old norse fae spirits.

I think the spirit "Hex" name needs to go, replace it with something else, don't know the terminology well enough.

And usually shamen don't deal with harmful spirits outright. They can ward them off, prevent them from laying down roots in the first place. Directly driving off a powerful spirit is more of a matter of asking it to go and paying it, than confronting and driving it off.

I like the idea of a single spirit that is the core of the character, and like how the oracle stuff blends. So I'll disagree with you there.

The base shaman character I'm using for this is "Injun Joe" Listens to Wind from the Dresden files.

But then again he has wild shape on crack... and is the gold standard of old men that should not be messed with.

So here we go. Using that idea we're at:

1st: Orisons, Spirit(Pick between familiar and fetish), Spirit Magic
2nd: "Hex"
3rd: Improved Spirit Guide(Small Elemental/Celestial or Infernal Animal)/Witch Hex
4th: Wandering Spirit
5th:
6th: Wandering "Hex"
7th: Improved Spirit Guide(Outsider)/Witch Hex
8th: Greater Spirit
9th:
10th: "Hex"
11th: Improved Spirit Guide(Bonus Familiar Feat)/Witch Major Hex
12th: Greater Wandering Spirit
13th:
14th: Wandering "Hex"
15th: Improved Spirit Guide(+2 Natural Armor)/Witch Major Hex
16th: True Spirit
17th:
18th: "Hex"
19th: Improved Spirit Guide(Bonus Familar Feat)/Witch Grand Hex
20th: Manifest, True Wandering Spirit

doesn't that look more like the other classes?


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change hex to Rites, maybe? since most of them arent nearly as negative as witch hexes.


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I've internally been calling the "Hexes" Boons for a bit. Seems more accurate.


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I'm drawing my inspiration more from traditional lore, than from pop-culture.

In most cases...spirits are considered at best "indifferent" to humans and their needs.
Not really good or evil....just "other", and that is where the shamans strength lies, in his ability to coerce...or even bully spirits into doing what he needs (which is why I'm not opposed to the idea of charisma as casting stat).

And no, most of these beings are not very "fixed", except by the New age market.
A tribe or clan may call a specific spirit by a specific name....but the idea that these beings operate in a "shoe-box" is not the least bit traditional.

An evil aligned shaman would most certainly deal with harmful spirits.

Even a good aligned shaman will deal with harmful spirits, if they can give him the upper hand over an enemy tribe.....although I suspect most shamans by nature of their world view are neutral.

A shamans strength was judged by the number of spirits he had assisting him. A shaman with one primary spirit, was an amateur.

If the shaman gained a new spirit ally at each level an oracle gains a new revelation....(for a total of six by 19th level).....

Had the choice of picking an existing oracle revelation or a witch's hex,(again, a combination of either six hexes or revelations)
and gained either the spell list associated with the mystery the revelation was chosen from, or a thematically appropriate patron list..

That sure as heck sounds like an actual shaman to me.

It gives a versatile range of different spells available (possibly doing away with the "specialized" spell list problem).

And it pulls much of the witch flavor that people have been concerned is missing back into the class.

Grand Lodge

I see the mechanical validity of "Hex or Revelation" but it doesn't fit the design template.

That template being.

"Some from this, some from that, one new"

And the Loa had specific names and governed VERY specific things. And they're older than most other shamanistic concepts combined. Same with the Sidhe and the fae. Same with the native americans. "Spirit of the Bear, spirit of the Raven" There is a reason why bears are almost always on TOP of totem poles. They hold a position of hierarchy over the others.

The spirits are drawn from the Oracle... so we can't really look at them as being the "Something new".

We need something new, and something witch to round out the template.

And I'm liking "Omen" for the name of the spirit abilities. As Omens can be good and bad, and speak of a great many things.


Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:

I see the mechanical validity of "Hex or Revelation" but it doesn't fit the design template.

That template being.

"Some from this, some from that, one new"

Take a look at the Arcanist...which they have done a great job with by the way. It certainly isn't following that template.

They used the Sorcerer and Wizard as a "jumping off point" to create something new...and that's how I feel it should be.

Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:
And the Loa had specific names and governed VERY specific things. And they're older than most other shamanistic concepts combined.

Can't speak to that one, as that's not been my area of study.

Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:
Same with the Sidhe and the fae.

Can speak to that one, as that has been my area of study for over thirty years....and no, they are very versatile and "unspecialized" in all traditional sources.

Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:
Same with the native americans. "Spirit of the Bear, spirit of the Raven" There is a reason why bears are almost always on TOP of totem poles. They hold a position of hierarchy over the others.

That is again "new age" thinking....

The Dina for example consider Raven to be bad luck, and an ill spirit.
First nation peoples associations with animals vary widely from tribe to tribe.

The base of the pole was reserved for the most skilled craftsmen....the top was for the less experienced craftsman.

Grand Lodge

I don't see dial-a-class as being good for this. Arcane magic comes with arcane thinking. And that means a lack of dogma. The Arcanist does what the arcanist wants. While a Shaman, despite being less spiritual than a cleric or even an oracle, is still bound by ritual and dogma.

Shamen learned from their predecessors so certain concepts, rituals, methods and practices will be standardized.

This throws out the whole pick and choose idea.

And the concept of Maiden Mother Crone speaks of very specific entities and very specific duties within the mythology. The who changes, the what they are doesn't.

And who gets to carve the totem pole doesn't change WHY what was carved WHERE. Tribes had specific entities that they saw as being more or less important. The Bear tops more than most because its 1: Easy to carve and 2: more important in the cultures. The Bear was seen as being closer to man than most other animals. Considering they had similar cycles. The tribes hunkered down for the winter and moved little, the bear hibernated. When the bear woke, the tribe's were ready to move. It even comes into modern culture with movies like brother bear and Brave(Which was freaking amazing ^_^)

And lots of cultures consider the Raven to be bad luck... or crow.

Though having seen a crow sitting on a rock NEXT to a Raven... holy balls. The Raven could have eaten the crow one gulp and not had trouble. Those things are terrifying in nature, much less in a mythological sense. It was bigger than the chickens they had in Sewart... 0_0


First we should really look at this as creating a class to represent the shaman not get bogged down in making it a hybrid. We're already
talking about it getting it's own spell list and is already drawing things from the druid, it should get some good stuff to really make it
it's own. The Oracle and the Witch make good starting points but of all of the hybrid classes the Shaman really feels like it could fill a niche of its own both in flavor within the world and and mechanically.

Looking at the inspiration to draw on from literary and historical shamans from all different cultures they don't come off as melee
combatants. They definitely don't make sense as having medium armor, most shamans seem like they wear priest robes or very little at all
depending on the culture they come from. The shaman would seem like a great to create something for the people who were asking for a priest class giving it robes, 1/2 BAB bonus and some both flavorful and powerful class features to make up for the lower BAB and a d6 hd. For players who want a more melee capable shaman certain spirits, particularly the spirit of battle could provide abilities that act like increased BAB and hd while channeling spirits into his allies increasing their combat abilities, instead of for some reason providing healing bonuses?

Some of the spirits available really don't make any sense for a shaman, while some of the oracle mysteries that were left out make a lot of sense for one, particularly ancestors, juju, and dark tapestry. Some of the current one's could use some modification of the flavor. Life in particular. When I think of life in a shamanistic sense I think of a spirit of plants and growth, which would be a different sort of nature spirit than the more beastial nature shaman.

Combining the spirit familiar with an animal companion stats would give a nice bump in ability to survive without going into melee. Perhaps they could also get some of the various barbarian totems or apply them to the animal companion to give them some more spiritual abilities.


I wish that they would have chosen a different name for this class so we wouldn't keep getting side-tracked by the different uses of it in history. In addition to needing to nail down some mechanics for this thing pretty quick, the Shaman has a major difference from any person that may or may not have used a name that looks anything like it throughout human history: It actually uses spirits and magic. Any example you pull from any culture throughout history that shares a name with it will be fundamentally flawed because every person making such a claim is/was either a con-man or delusional.

At times I can enjoy a bit of academic debate as much as anyone (though my brain has felt on the fritz lately) but I really can't see the need to nitpick the fluff. If anything, we should be working towards mechanics that provide the flexibility to let people fluff it as they see fit. This is especially true since so many people seem to have strong mutually exclusive views about what this thing is supposed to look like.

In anticipation that someone might take offense to my earlier comment about con-men or delusional, I meant no offense to any particular group by it. I make the same claim for anyone and everyone claiming supernatural power regardless of culture.

As for some mechanics talk, I would be perfectly fine with the 1/2 BAB others have been talking about. I would be a bit reluctant to pull the medium armor though. This class is so mad that it has led to my first -dex character. His AC is no better than my arcane casters at this level and it costs him 10' movement to do it.


I really like the name Rites mentioned above instead of Hex, Omens would work too and I would enjoy seeing both employed somewhere in the class.

Grand Lodge

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Medium armor is solid for this.

Simple weapons is too... but I would like to see "And one Martial weapon of the player's choice" added, given that Shamen use the weapons of their tribe, whether they be clubs or battleaxes.

Contributor

Somewhere, Stephen is sitting back and thinking to himself, "Good, yes, good. Cry your sweet, succulent tears, fans of the Shaman. Your woeful pleas will sustain me long after you have drawn your last worthless breath."

... what? You're using an Antipaladin avatar. Of course that's what people are going to think!

Shadow Lodge

So I wanted to state this, currently, a Shaman cannot take the Warrior Priest feat, which prevents the creation of a Shaman Hellknight Signifier.

Additionally, if Hexes were called revelations instead of Hexes, a shaman Hellknight Signifier would be just as useful as an Oracle Signifier, currently even if they could qualify, they gain nothing beyond increased caster level where as the cleric gains stacking level for domains, inquisitor gains stacking level for domains/inquisitions and oracle gains stacking level for revelations.

Also, I wanted to add that I have changed my stance on the Shaman's spell list. I no longer feel that the shaman should get it's own spell list for one reason and one reason only. As displayed by the bloodrager, if the Shaman gets its own spell list, that spell list will intentionally be comprised of spells only from the Core Rulebook, Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat, in addition to Advanced Class Guide. This means that the shaman will miss out on spells from all of the great setting specific books published prior to the Advanced Class Guide.

Finally, I wanted to state that I am very much looking forward to a possible archetype that dedicates themselves to a single spirit and loses all of the wandering abilities in order to better understand their chosen spirit. I hope that such an archetype will exist and it would give earlier access to the greater and true spirit abilities.

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