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Hmm let's see:
Give up Fast Movement for Good Will Saves.
Trade UD and IUD for Evasion.
Have Blood Sanctuary increase by 1 for every 4 levels.
Trade DR for ¿Blastrage? : when casting a spell with a range greater than touch the BR may instead cast it as a Touch Attack as part of an Attack Action, doing so does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Rage Points: This would be a mechanic that lets you accrue points from a starting pool of 0 by doing martial things, and then either allows you to 1) expend those points to add metamagic feats you know to spells without increasing the spell level (maybe expending points equal to the normal modified level of the spell); or 2) expend those points to quicken spells (expending points equal to the spell level). The trigger could be entering rage, or it could be confirming crits, or it could be reducing a creature to below 0 hit points. And it's more or less irrelevant whether the ability just allows you to quicken or allows you to add metamagic feats you know. Some variation on this ability feels very bloodrager, allowing you to concentrate on basic face-beating early in the day while working your way up to an arcane fury.
Personally I'd rather just have them trade rounds of rage. It has the same overall effect (limitation by resource) without adding a whole new mechanic to track.
Rage Metamagic: This mechanic would simply allow you to trade rounds of rage in place of increasing the spell level when applying metamagic feats. It feels a little less thematic, but there's no doubt it's making your rage relevant to your casting and it creates an interesting resource management tension.
Mostly covered by the first if you assume you're using rage rounds instead of a new point pool. However, what if instead of working with metamagic, it increased the DC of saves versus the spell? Make it usable only while raging. The problem with a lot of these AoEs is that they have saves, and in order to be effective, the target has to fail the save - which they're unlikely to do since the highest level spell you get is a 4.
Explosive Anger: This mechanic allows you to quicken any spell that includes yourself in its area of effect, making it essentially feel like the spells are exploding outward from you, almost casting themselves as a byproduct of your anger. This mechanic might work best if it only worked while you were raging (further limiting it a bit and feeling more thematic). This is a niche no other class has dared to fill, and feels perfect for the bloodrager.
THIS. So much this. I'd go so far as to make it so that it only functions while raging and effectively alters any damaging spell with an area of effect so that it is always centered on you.
Silly Question, but I don't know the answer; Does The Bloodrage physically change under the Blood Rage? For our Playtest character I'm re-imagining my psychotic Urban Barbarian who would go from charming to monster, and I would like if he actually looked like a monster when he get's mad too.
Just curious! :D
Silly Question, but I don't know the answer; Does The Bloodrage physically change under the Blood Rage? For our Playtest character I'm re-imagining my psychotic Urban Barbarian who would go from charming to monster, and I would like if he actually looked like a monster when he get's mad too.
Just curious! :D
Some of the bloodlines do include what would be visible cosmetic changes - Abyssal, for example, causes you to grow claws and allows you to enlarge for free while raging.
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All this talk about the will save and arcane spellcasting vrs divine spellcasting has reminded me about Feeblemind. Won't the bloodrager be amazingly vulnerable to being feebleminded with a poor will save and arcane casting?
He can run for public office at that point.
I'm noticing a disturbing lack of Dev comments in this thread, while in the others I'm keeping eye on (or was), there were 3-4 Dev comments on each page.
Any input from the developer side?
I'm noticing a disturbing lack of Dev comments in this thread, while in the others I'm keeping eye on (or was), there were 3-4 Dev comments on each page.
Any input from the developer side?
Honestly, it worries me a bit too since the devs seemed to have the impression that the bloodrager was pretty much alright as it was. At least that is the impression that I got from one of the playtest updates. While I think that most people will agree that the class is fairly playable right now many will also say that it needs some more work on its sorcerer side.
some casty side tweaking is definitely in order, yeah.
I mean you CAN go out and play a buffing barbarian-lite, but then why not just play a paladin at that point
some casty side tweaking is definitely in order, yeah.
I mean you CAN go out and play a buffing barbarian-lite, but then why not just play a paladin at that point
Paladin's can't reach a 50+ strength bonus without some serious buffing.
20 start (18 + racial) +5 levels +6 enhancement +14 morale (mighty rage + abyssal bloodrager bloodline) +6 inherent (Eldritch Heritage - Abyssal sorcerer bloodline, RAW it works) +2 (demonic bulk) or +10 size (UMD Form of the Dragon III)
20+5+6+6+14+2= 53 (+21 mod) or
20+5+6+6+14+10=61 (+25 mod)
With the Abyssal Bloodrage bloodline, you get claws while raging. Without any sort of weapon enhancement (or really any feats other than Eldritch Heritage) your Bloodrager is already at +41 to hit and +21 to damage. If you use Form of the Dragon III instead of Demonic Bulk, you get +45 to hit and +25 to damage.
Toss on the usual damage increases, and you're looking at a terrifying melee machine of death and destruction...
...with his claws, mind you.
Who needs Smite when you can just Bloodrage and destroy everything in your path?
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When I pointed this out to a friend, I had to stop and was like, "You know, I'm trying really hard to point out how bad this is, from a balance perspective... but it sounds like so much bloody fun!
Just the mental picture of a guy wearing nothing but a belt, suddenly growing claws, doubling in size, leaning back and roaring to the heavens, before leaping into the fray and ripping his foes to shreds paints such an awesome picture in my mind I'm having a really hard time saying anything bad about it.
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Had a thought:
What if the bloodrager got arcane blast as a bonus feat at first level and could expend rounds of rage to use it (1 round of rage = 1/2 bloodrager level in d6s of damage)?
Then at later levels he could use it faster or perhaps gain a blast template added to it or something?
Had a thought:
What if the bloodrager got arcane blast as a bonus feat at first level and could expend rounds of rage to use it (1 round of rage = 1/2 bloodrager level in d6s of damage)?
Then at later levels he could use it faster or perhaps gain a blast template added to it or something?
*cough* warlock *cough*
:D
Silly Question, but I don't know the answer; Does The Bloodrage physically change under the Blood Rage? For our Playtest character I'm re-imagining my psychotic Urban Barbarian who would go from charming to monster, and I would like if he actually looked like a monster when he get's mad too.
Just curious! :D
in my head at least the bloodrage involves heavy twisting and almost mutations of the body based vaguely on cu Chulainn who went into "warp spasms" basically his body twisted into something monstrous out of his pure anger.
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I really think bloodragers should either use an edited sorcerer or magus list (the way the shaman uses an edited druid list), or they should get a mechanic that helps incentivize them to cast more of the spells they have access to.
Definitely going to have to agree with this. Backwards compatibility and access to utility are things the current list lacks.
Early access is also something I feel the bloodrager needs. Unless you drop the spells by more than one level, bloodrager still gets them slower than 3/4 or full casters. The only real concern then is magic item costs tied to the bloodrager, and because of the required higher CL for bloodragers the cost will usually be too expensive for this to make a significant difference (the exception being blast spells, where the higher CL is a good thing, but I don't think cheaper wands of fireball are going to break the game in any way).
What I suggest is swapping out UD and IUD for Evasion.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think all the classes with access to Evasion (without coughing up for a Ring) have favoured Ref saves. Giving them a favoured Will save and Stalwart might be better.
what if we just went back to the full on bloodlines, all the abilities (except the capstones) only function while raging with a maximum usage per day matching what the sorcerer has. Then at level 3 they get one use of the 1st level bonus spell known as a spell like ability. At level 5 they get a second use of the first level bonus spell known and one use of the 2nd level bonus spell known as a spell like ability and so on (so at 7th level they'll have 3 uses of the first bonus spell, 2 of the 2nd and 1 of the third).
This way they have some higher level spell likes tied to their bloodline and scaling uses of those abilities.
Dragon's Breath and Detonate would be the only spells that really benefit from that. And then after 8th level your caster levels are meaningless.whoops, i meant intensify.Does anyone else think that the bloodrager could get away with double caster level and automatic heightened with damaging spells while bloodraging?Uh. I don't think so. Not to mention all the hard caps on damage spells without intensify spell.
ok how about bloodrage just flat removes the caster level cap on bloodrager spells. It would make them terrific blasters, while bloodraging anyways.
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ok how about bloodrage just flat removes the caster level cap on bloodrager spells. It would make them terrific blasters, while bloodraging anyways.Dragon's Breath and Detonate would be the only spells that really benefit from that. And then after 8th level your caster levels are meaningless.whoops, i meant intensify.Does anyone else think that the bloodrager could get away with double caster level and automatic heightened with damaging spells while bloodraging?Uh. I don't think so. Not to mention all the hard caps on damage spells without intensify spell.
That would kinda defeat the purpose of higher level blasting spells though.
That is an interesting idea. It would still need something to help with DC's and would likely be something that could be added on as a later power.
Last big thought I had:
Have the bloodrager add both his charisma modifier and his strength modifier to spell DCs and bonus spells per day.
OR:
Strength adds to bonus spells per day and change bloodrage so that the bloodrager's charisma modifier is added to his attack roll at level 1 and at level 11 it's also added to his damage rolls. Strength adds to concentration checks at level 1 and to spell DCs at level 11.
To make strength and charisma both more desirable.
That would kinda defeat the purpose of higher level blasting spells though.ok how about bloodrage just flat removes the caster level cap on bloodrager spells. It would make them terrific blasters, while bloodraging anyways.Dragon's Breath and Detonate would be the only spells that really benefit from that. And then after 8th level your caster levels are meaningless.whoops, i meant intensify.Does anyone else think that the bloodrager could get away with double caster level and automatic heightened with damaging spells while bloodraging?Uh. I don't think so. Not to mention all the hard caps on damage spells without intensify spell.
If the current spell list is kept it would really hurt anything for the bloodrager.
And if he gets higher level spells moved lower into his list it will still allow him to get some use out of the lower level spells at higher level without resorting to turning all his lower level spells into buffs, which he will need to do since he is so limited on spells per day.
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That is an interesting idea. It would still need something to help with DC's and would likely be something that could be added on as a later power.
Last big thought I had:
Have the bloodrager add both his charisma modifier and his strength modifier to spell DCs and bonus spells per day.
OR:
Strength adds to bonus spells per day and change bloodrage so that the bloodrager's charisma modifier is added to his attack roll at level 1 and at level 11 it's also added to his damage rolls. Strength adds to concentration checks at level 1 and to spell DCs at level 11.
To make strength and charisma both more desirable.
I know I've suggested it a couple of times of choosing to make your spells go off touch instead of saves, what else could be done with this method to make it more viable to you?
touch attack spells are generally lackluster -- low damage output, low effects, and a lot of them still give saves.
For me the real point at this point would be to give the class more reason to have a decent charisma score, have some decent DC's (because most of your good damage spells allow save throws touch or not) and to have enough spells per day to really give switch hitting with magic or using damaging magical effects a chance to really be part of this class' tricks.
I don't think you'll be able to really find a way to make touch spells able to do that. With the 'blasting' spells you at least get multiple opponents, so it is conceivable to do enough damage to feel satisfied with choosing a spell instead of full attacking (or even simply normally attacking).
This is especially difficult if your choices are:
1. Fireball (10d6 and at least you get multiple people)
2. Vampiric touch (5d6 but hey some temp HP which will be gone next time you are hit)
3. Haste
Haste is highly likely to be one of your best choices -- especially with how this class is currently set up.
Fireball might be acceptable, if you have something pumping the DC and if you get a little booster damage.
Vampiric touch is going to be a crap option, you might as well just take a standard attack as you will likely do more than 17.5 damage with a regular swing (+9 from power attack and +6 from strength 1.5 as well as a 2d6 weapon that is +2 almost guarantees it, and that's at the lower end of your damage pool on martial attacks).
Long story short it's easier to come up with a convincing 'fix' for blasting than it is for all the failings of touch range spells.
I would advise against adding Strength to DCs. Temporary ability score boosts, (such as from Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom) add to save DCs.
So a Bloodrager could have a massive DC boost by adding strength to his DCs, it basically turns him into the ultimate SoS caster. For instance, I showed above how a Bloodrager could each a 61 Strength score, if he were to add his Strength to his DCs, he'd have a base of DC 35 before his Charisma or spell level is added.
With Strength to DC, you could easily find spell DCs of 45+ from the Bloodrager. Even with a Charisma of 20, you'd see Phantasmal Killer as a staple for the Bloodrager (DC 44 Will to disbelieve, DC 44 Fort to avoid death).
Hm... that could be a problem I agree.
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touch attack spells are generally lackluster -- low damage output, low effects, and a lot of them still give saves.
For me the real point at this point would be to give the class more reason to have a decent charisma score, have some decent DC's (because most of your good damage spells allow save throws touch or not) and to have enough spells per day to really give switch hitting with magic or using damaging magical effects a chance to really be part of this class' tricks.
I don't think you'll be able to really find a way to make touch spells able to do that. With the 'blasting' spells you at least get multiple opponents, so it is conceivable to do enough damage to feel satisfied with choosing a spell instead of full attacking (or even simply normally attacking).
This is especially difficult if your choices are:
1. Fireball (10d6 and at least you get multiple people)
2. Vampiric touch (5d6 but hey some temp HP which will be gone next time you are hit)
3. HasteHaste is highly likely to be one of your best choices -- especially with how this class is currently set up.
Fireball might be acceptable, if you have something pumping the DC and if you get a little booster damage.
Vampiric touch is going to be a crap option, you might as well just take a standard attack as you will likely do more than 17.5 damage with a regular swing (+9 from power attack and +6 from strength 1.5 as well as a 2d6 weapon that is +2 almost guarantees it, and that's at the lower end of your damage pool on martial attacks).Long story short it's easier to come up with a convincing 'fix' for blasting than it is for all the failings of touch range spells.
Sorry, allow to reiterate.
My suggestion was to allow ranged spells go off of a melee Touch attack rather than a save, in this case a Reflex save, which would make sense. So a touch attack fireball would do all damage to the target if hit and everyone else in the blast radius would get a reflex save.
am i reading the complaints of this class right? people want bruce banner to hulk-out then stand behind hawkeye hurling spells at the baddie?
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No...
I can't speak for everyone, but I just want a decent spell list and an Orc Bloodline.
Plus, I want him to be a little less Barbarian.
Agreed. Bloodrager should lose the Barbartian's secondary abilities and capstone, and instead gain a better spell list.
The current version of the BR is not just stepping on the Barbarian's toes anymore, it's downright crushing them with a jackhammer.
i'm cool with a little less barbarian as well if they'll fix his sorcerer side--as it stands his spells are just a source of buffs UND NUSSING ELSE, since it just isnt worth it to cast due to how stunted they are in that field. the revamped spell list only made this problem worse (except fro a better buff added, woohoo), and the fact that now he can buff as a swift while raging only further incentivises buffing and nothing else.
The general desire is for a character who is functional in melee in a chaotic, damaging, not-defensive-at-all fashion but who also can throw around some interesting and damaging arcane spells while they're doing it.
I still love the idea of allowing the Bloodrager (while raging only) to cast a damage spell with an 'Area' aiming description (such as Fireball) as a swift action - but doing so adds the phrase "centered on you" to the area description (see the spell Detonate for an example).
So rather than being a targeted area spell, Fireball would become a 20'-radius burst centered on the Bloodrager.
it gives the blood armor some real use, if you're going to be nuking yourself.
The general desire is for a character who is functional in melee in a chaotic, damaging, not-defensive-at-all fashion but who also can throw around some interesting and damaging arcane spells while they're doing it.
I still love the idea of allowing the Bloodrager (while raging only) to cast a damage spell with an 'Area' aiming description (such as Fireball) as a swift action - but doing so adds the phrase "centered on you" to the area description (see the spell Detonate for an example).
So rather than being a targeted area spell, Fireball would become a 20'-radius burst centered on the Bloodrager.
I loved the idea of Detonate (had Dragon Ball-Z/Vegeta flashbacks). It would be super cool to have that as a build/area of focus for the Bloodrager.
The general desire is for a character who is functional in melee in a chaotic, damaging, not-defensive-at-all fashion but who also can throw around some interesting and damaging arcane spells while they're doing it.
I still love the idea of allowing the Bloodrager (while raging only) to cast a damage spell with an 'Area' aiming description (such as Fireball) as a swift action - but doing so adds the phrase "centered on you" to the area description (see the spell Detonate for an example).
So rather than being a targeted area spell, Fireball would become a 20'-radius burst centered on the Bloodrager.
I loved the idea of Detonate (had Dragon Ball-Z/Vegeta flashbacks). It would be super cool to have that as a build/area of focus for the Bloodrager.
Such a Bloodrager should think of Garvok, Sword of Wrath as the sword to use.
Nah, you'd be using your OWN spells to blow yourself up. Do the fireballs cast from that even count as fired by the wielder? Or are they fired by the sword (would the sword count as an ally?)Such a Bloodrager should think of Garvok, Sword of Wrath as the sword to use.The general desire is for a character who is functional in melee in a chaotic, damaging, not-defensive-at-all fashion but who also can throw around some interesting and damaging arcane spells while they're doing it.
I still love the idea of allowing the Bloodrager (while raging only) to cast a damage spell with an 'Area' aiming description (such as Fireball) as a swift action - but doing so adds the phrase "centered on you" to the area description (see the spell Detonate for an example).
So rather than being a targeted area spell, Fireball would become a 20'-radius burst centered on the Bloodrager.
I loved the idea of Detonate (had Dragon Ball-Z/Vegeta flashbacks). It would be super cool to have that as a build/area of focus for the Bloodrager.
Not sure as to whether or not the Sword counts as an ally, but consider this part....
2 fireballs a round if you quicken.
Just for the "Back the **** off!" factor. :D
I would advise against adding Strength to DCs. Temporary ability score boosts, (such as from Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom) add to save DCs.
So a Bloodrager could have a massive DC boost by adding strength to his DCs, it basically turns him into the ultimate SoS caster. For instance, I showed above how a Bloodrager could each a 61 Strength score, if he were to add his Strength to his DCs, he'd have a base of DC 35 before his Charisma or spell level is added.
With Strength to DC, you could easily find spell DCs of 45+ from the Bloodrager. Even with a Charisma of 20, you'd see Phantasmal Killer as a staple for the Bloodrager (DC 44 Will to disbelieve, DC 44 Fort to avoid death).
If anything like that existed, it should use CON, not STR, just like the Rage Prophet ability does.
It could also be specified to only work with certain spells appropriate to the Bloodline.Not sure if that's really needed, I'm not really into the blast/SoS aspect myself,
which is why I'm hoping the spell-list returns to a more utility/buff centric approach.
(which I would include Dispel Magic within, which is not DC dependent, but Caster Level, which would synergize with the design decision for full caster level)
That would kinda defeat the purpose of higher level blasting spells though.ok how about bloodrage just flat removes the caster level cap on bloodrager spells. It would make them terrific blasters, while bloodraging anyways.Dragon's Breath and Detonate would be the only spells that really benefit from that. And then after 8th level your caster levels are meaningless.whoops, i meant intensify.Does anyone else think that the bloodrager could get away with double caster level and automatic heightened with damaging spells while bloodraging?Uh. I don't think so. Not to mention all the hard caps on damage spells without intensify spell.If the current spell list is kept it would really hurt anything for the bloodrager.
And if he gets higher level spells moved lower into his list it will still allow him to get some use out of the lower level spells at higher level without resorting to turning all his lower level spells into buffs, which he will need to do since he is so limited on spells per day.
ok how about increasing the dice cap by an amount equal to half his level, and adding his level + double the level of the spell to damag.
If anything like that existed, it should use CON, not STR, just like the Rage Prophet ability does.
It could also be specified to only work with certain spells appropriate to the Bloodline.
Not sure if that's really needed, I'm not really into the blast/SoS aspect myself,
which is why I'm hoping the spell-list returns to a more utility/buff centric approach.
(which I would include Dispel Magic within, which is not DC dependent, but Caster Level, which would synergize with the design decision for full caster level)
I agree with only allowing the increased DCs on appropriate spells. It should only apply spells that cause damage, IMO, and not your more classic SoS like Sleep or Phantasmal Killer. The problem, of course, is determining which spells get the save and which don't.
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You guys are talking about self-centered nuking, detonate, Gavrok the sword of Wrath, all of that. Man, are you guys just conveniently glossing over and being inspired by my Orc Bloodline or am I just in line with everybody else's thinking on what this class needs more of?
Not to burst your bubble but that is so far a homebrew idea and thus really isn't helping this. But yes I am all for the self nuking options.
Also I'm pretty sure the higher ups have said they're not that fond of the original Orc Bloodline so I doubt they'll make one for the Bloodrager.
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You guys are talking about self-centered nuking, detonate, Gavrok the sword of Wrath, all of that. Man, are you guys just conveniently glossing over and being inspired by my Orc Bloodline or am I just in line with everybody else's thinking on what this class needs more of?Not to burst your bubble but that is so far a homebrew idea and thus really isn't helping this. But yes I am all for the self nuking options.
Also I'm pretty sure the higher ups have said they're not that fond of the original Orc Bloodline so I doubt they'll make one for the Bloodrager.
I know it's a homebrew idea, and yeah it isn't helping, but it's an example of what the Bloodrager should be, not what it is currently. In my mind anyway.
And for Pete's sake, why wouldn't they be fond of the original Orc Bloodline? It's awesome and amazingly flavorful and has the ability to make the sorcerer a badass in close combat for a short period of time.
True it is cool, but how does it work? As opposed to the Destined Bloodline? Being descended from Orcs doesn't fuel a person the same way being from an Outsider does.
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Sorry, I was out sick yesterday and stayed away from the boards.
While we are going to do some tweaking to the spell list, and we are going to take a good hard look at when some bloodline abilities show up, and some of the bloodline spells with a similar eye, I think it is safe to say, that all things considered we are fairly happy with this class, and so are the majority of playtesters.
What you are not going to see some of the defensive abilities or utilities of the bloodrager swapped out for more or quicker spell power more so than he already has. We are not making a class that has the power of the barbarian and the spell power of a sorcerer. We are making a class that finds its rage though its bloodline and has some spellcasting ability. The ability to buff itself in some ways, and to cast offensive spells from time to time when it is opportune to do so. We kept his caster level at the bloodrager level, which is already a boost for his offensive spellcasting. We are not going to give him automatic increases to DC (though he can do so with feats and other options). He has options. They are there for the taking, and we have already seen some interesting options in the playtests.
I hope that helps illuminate where we are sitting with this class.
We are going to take a good hard look at... some of the bloodline spells
I really hope this means expelling the totally save dependent spells from the bloodline lists. I agree that the Bloodrager doesn't need better offensive spellcasting, and the extra CL at least lets the damage spells that populate their list work a bit better. There are a couple of very save dependent spells on the list, but they can be safely ignored.
However, getting the spells on the bloodlines hurts much more, as you can't avoid them. Most lists have at least one totally save dependent spell, like fear or suggestion, where the low level and (likely) low Charisma lead to a DC that is unlikely to work on even significantly lower level targets. Even worse are the HD dependent ones like Abyssal's cause fear (6HD limit, gained at 7th) or Fey's deep slumber (10HD limit, gained at 13th), which combine the save problem with already being HD limited out when they are gained.
Fey is probably the worst with 3/4 spells, but most classes have at least one. While having an option or two on the base spell list for someone who wants to take them wouldn't hurt, I think it would be preferable for the bloodline spell lists to stick to the buffs, utility, and damage spells the class is most suited for.